[HN Gopher] One pioneering grizzly and her two cubs appear on Va...
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One pioneering grizzly and her two cubs appear on Vancouver Island
Author : abscond
Score : 108 points
Date : 2024-10-04 23:36 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (hakaimagazine.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (hakaimagazine.com)
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I've been up REAL close to grizzlies, on Kodiak Island [1].
| However, that has a population of 13,000 [2], whereas Vancouver
| has 840,000, according to that article.
|
| That means on Kodiak, the bears have the land mostly to
| themselves, and humans aren't much of a threat to them. You
| wouldn't try this in Yellowstone, where fatal bear-human
| encounters happen regularly. And probably will on Vancouver, too.
|
| [1] https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/travel-disasters
|
| [2] https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-
| society/population-a...
| wk_end wrote:
| It's important to distinguish "Vancouver" (a city on the
| mainland) and "Vancouver Island" (an island off the coast).
|
| Vancouver Island has a population nearing a million, but half
| of it live in the greater Victoria area, which occupies a tiny
| little peninsula and change on the southern tip. Most of the
| island - which is huge, approximately four times the size of
| Kodiak Island, for what it's worth - is pretty wild and
| untamed.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I'm sure, but the question is, do the populations intersect?
| Looking at the map, I see three Provincial Parks up in the
| north, plus towns and roads. That will mean vacationers will
| encounter them.
|
| Whereas on Kodiak, there is nothing on one side of the
| island.
| WillyWonkaJr wrote:
| I think it's time that we start to make room once again for
| the animals we almost drove to extinction. This would be a
| good, controlled setting to see if we can do this
| responsibly.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| How is Vancouver "controlled"? The grizzlies can
| obviously swim back to the mainland if they don't like
| it.
|
| > we almost drove to extinction
|
| In the Lower 48, yes. Not in Canada and Alaska.
| fbarred wrote:
| Some of them can, if they are in good physical condition.
| There's a reason why there haven't been any females who
| swam across until now.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| For good reason. Brown bears eat people. You are no more
| than a slow meal to them. Coexistence means accepting
| that people will be eaten by bears or bears will be
| killed by people defending themselves. I think it is
| worth noting that native tribes prepared for war if the
| needed to kill a brown bear.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| > Attacks on humans, though widely reported, are
| generally rare.
|
| Brown bears prefer salmon to geezers who talk big, for
| certain.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| Says somebody that has never lived where brown bears do.
| They can and will gladly eat you if you are the best meal
| around. Salmon are only around for maybe 1/4 of the year.
| LilBytes wrote:
| Might make for an interesting development on future seasons of
| Alone if Grizzles become a common presence on Vancouver Island.
|
| My understanding of read materials so far is the amount of work
| gone into the program to risk profile danger was incredible, the
| change in risk profile of the addition of Grizzles on top of
| wolves and black bears would be quite an adjustment.
| grecy wrote:
| My Yukon buddy was the safety officer/local guy when they did
| alone up on great slave lake in the NWT.( near Yellowknife)
|
| He hung around all the time with his hunting rifle and a 12
| gauge loaded with slugs to make sure nobody got eaten.
|
| He got in trouble for sharing smokes and giving fire to the
| contestants a few times.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Apparently the great slave lake was named after the
| indigenous dene people, who were called the slave tribe by
| their enemy tribe the Cree.
| scooke wrote:
| No need for the word "tribe" here. They are the Dene. They
| are the Slave. They are the Cree. we don't say "the German
| tribe" (of Europe), or the Swiss tribe. This term typically
| is used to describe a smaller group belonging to a larger
| group. In this case, the larger group is subconsciously
| thought of Indians, or even First Nations, or Aboriginals.
| But the Cree, Slave Dene and any other number of nations
| are not tribes . They are nations. So, the Cree... The
| Slave.... The Dene....
| arcticfox wrote:
| The smokes don't seem like that big of a deal but the fire
| seems like it is a complete disaster for fairness. That's
| actually pretty horrific - the other contestants out there
| working and suffering their asses off to survive and he gave
| a huge leg up to arbitrary competitors? I should hope he got
| in serious trouble - can you imagine an official in a sports
| competition casually messing with the game w/ $1M on the
| line???
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I regret to say that the show is probably only concerned
| with the appearance of fairness, as viewed by edited
| footage post-hoc. Not the experience of the contestants so
| much.
|
| For example, I previously believed the contestants to be
| truly _alone_ , in that each potential encounter with bears
| would be hugely risky. But now I know that was a minimal
| risk because a bodyguard was close enough to intervene, and
| was probably monitoring grizzly activity in the area.
|
| The mental changes that happen to a contestant when they
| can even _see_ someone nearby kind of invalidates the whole
| premise a little.
| grecy wrote:
| I think you're thinking this show is a lot more real than
| it actually is. It is scripted reality TV, not serious, not
| real.
|
| He said he and the camera crew talked to the contestants
| all the time, despite them being shown to be "alone"
|
| I think he said he gave fire to people that already had it
| anyway and theirs just went out.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| They have done at least one season in Interior BC where
| Grizzlies are present. They have also done seasons in northern
| Canada where within range of those predators as well.
| pvaldes wrote:
| They will need to watch very carefully for any negative
| relationship with the endemic Vancouver Island Marmot, that only
| lives in a couple spots in the Island. In this case, those bears
| will need to be captured and moved out of the Island again.
| Grizzlies have the rest of N America to live.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| The marmots are in so few locations and in such small numbers,
| it seems exceedingly unlikely that it would become an issue. It
| would be awful if it was a problem though. The marmots have
| been having record years, and their recovery is really just
| beginning.
| pvaldes wrote:
| 1) Grizzlies are known to ear marmots if they can catch them.
| Those bears are able to move big stones. One bear that would
| specialize on open the tunnels and chase the rodents on their
| nests, could trigger the demise of the wild population in
| months or weeks. Even before we could notice it.
|
| 2) Bears will compete for the same fruits and resources in
| autumn and have big appetites. Marmots need those fruits to
| survive winter.
|
| 3) Vancouver Marmot societies can collapse suddenly if the
| number is reduced, because they need a minimum number of
| watchers for protection while the other eat.
|
| The risk simply doesn't worth it at this moment. Professional
| advice should be relocation of the bears until the marmot
| situation improves and creates a minimum number of
| individuals that would act as a safety buffer. Those bears at
| least should be radiotracked ASAP and followed by Biologists
| and specialized workers. That would be the minimum action
| required. If they enter on the area with marmots they must
| go. Prioritizing safety of the critically endangered animals
| over the common species is the correct decision.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I agree they should be tracked, absolutely. I should have
| specified that I wouldn't expect it to be an issue in the
| short term. Eventually they would almost certainly
| interact, though at that point hopefully the marmots will
| be established with stable populations.
|
| I also agree that prioritizing endangered species is the
| right decision here. We have more than enough bears on the
| island. We don't really need to ensure grizzlies stay in
| the mix at the moment, haha.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I have kinda mixed feelings on this. Protecting an
| endangered species against human hunting, habitat
| reduction, or other unnatural dangers makes total sense.
|
| But what's unnatural about grizzlies? Were they introduced
| onto the island by man? Nope. For that matter, the bears on
| Kodiak -- how did they get there in the first place? They
| have plenty of salmon so they probably don't need to eat
| marmots, if there are any. But maybe they wiped out other
| species we don't know about.
|
| What are you going to do to protect them against other
| natural predators? And why not introduce them into other
| suitable habitats, like we've done with wolves in the US?
| Then we wouldn't be so dependent on one island.
|
| Edit: this is in marked contrast to New Zealand trying to
| eliminate the stoats and other introduced mammals who are
| not native and are wiping out the bird species who are. The
| bears got there on their own.
| Keysh wrote:
| Are a few brown bears more dangerous to marmots than the many
| black bears that already live there?
| pvaldes wrote:
| Yes, They are much more strong and need more meat to survive.
| Being able or not to lift a heavy rock can be the difference
| between an entire colony of marmots wiped or not. With such
| small populations of gregarious animals, losing 10 or 20
| marmots by three bears in a couple of nights is a serious
| issue. Is close to the number of survivors in the wild before
| the rewilding projects started.
|
| Black bears must have _some_ effect on marmots. Both species
| compete for the food, but the effect can be difficult to
| study (Black bears eat lots of ants for example, and ants eat
| surprisingly big amounts of plants also). Ecology is so
| complex that must be managed by trained professionals, able
| to see the whole picture, not for companies driven toward
| selling more newspapers (In the same way as computer
| security, hospitals, or any other issue important to us; that
| would cause disasters if not addressed sensibly).
| skwb wrote:
| My wife and I went to Tofino (on Vancouver) this last summer
| where you can rent a boat for a tour of the coastal black bears.
| Very highly recommend it.
| jacobaul wrote:
| (As a local) it sounds weird to say "on Vancouver" without the
| island part. Vancouver means the city. If you want to sound
| cool you can say "the Island".
| vavooom wrote:
| Super cool! I love Vancouver island - normally visit Campbell
| River where I used to have family. Always wanted to make it to
| the west side for Tofino or the West Coast Trail.
| grecy wrote:
| I hope you made a stop in Hot Springs Cove.
|
| That place is magical.
| blindriver wrote:
| How would they avoid inbreeding and genetic mutations if only a
| single bloodline existed there?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I think the grizzlies will take care of that on their own.
| Either some bears from the island will swim to the mainland, or
| vice versa.
|
| Note: don't ask for a link on that. I just suspect animals
| prefer not to mate with their siblings.
| pentamassiv wrote:
| The article says "As the first known female grizzly on
| Vancouver Island, she could be the progenitor of an entirely
| new, self-sustaining grizzly population--the first in as many
| as 12,500 years".
|
| They might be waiting for a long time for other bears to come
| AlbertCory wrote:
| The authorities could always bring over some other ones, if
| that's really what they want.
|
| In any case, the drive to mate is pretty powerful. I would
| think a female in heat would swim back to the mainland if
| that was the only way to find a male.
| fbarred wrote:
| From the article:
|
| 'On Vancouver Island--about 10 times closer to the mainland--
| the genetic diversity of any future grizzly population
| shouldn't be a problem. As we've seen, "there'll be males
| coming over to mix up the genes," McLellan says. And now,
| perhaps, the odd female too."'
| t-3 wrote:
| Inbreeding tends to solve itself in cases of problems. If the
| offspring aren't viable, they'll die.
| goodcanadian wrote:
| From the article, males swim over fairly frequently, but
| usually leave again when they find no females. So, there is a
| regular opportunity to add to the gene pool. What is newsworthy
| is that there is now at least one female there (sexes of the
| cubs are unknown). I think it is still a big leap to assume
| that a sustainable population is inevitable, however, as the
| occasional visiting male still has to find the female(s) and
| the resulting population will still be quite inbred.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| Note that Vancouver Island has absurd numbers of black bear but
| pretty much or at zero brown bears until now.
|
| I'm wondering if they're u. a. stikeenensis, gyas, dalli, or
| merely the terribly-named horribilis.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| So are these Grizzlies now an "invasive species" on Vancouver
| Island?
|
| Explain why or why not you think so!
| karaterobot wrote:
| If they swam there, no. Invasive species have to be introduced
| by humans, by definition! The effect of grizzlies on the island
| ecosystem is unknown, and that may be more of what you're
| talking about.
| derefr wrote:
| > If they swam there, no. Invasive species have to be
| introduced by humans, by definition!
|
| So what do you call it if humans introduce a species to an
| island A that's _really close_ to another island B -- and
| then the species happens to make the short hop to island B on
| its own? In a causal sense, that species would not have made
| it to island B if not for us introducing it to island A.
| tempestn wrote:
| Yes, when an invasive species spreads from where it was
| first introduced, it remains an invasive species.
| karaterobot wrote:
| The article says they probably swam across the Johnstone
| Straight, from the mainland. There's no mention whatsoever
| of introducing grizzlies to any nearby island.
|
| If you're asking hypothetically, I'd guess it comes down to
| whether the islands were separate ecosystems, but Wikipedia
| would be a much better source than me.
| cco wrote:
| By what definition? Humans being involved didn't seem common
| in definitions I found.
| morsch wrote:
| An _invasive species_ is an introduced species that harms
| its new environment.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species
|
| An _introduced species_ , alien species, exotic species,
| adventive species, immigrant species, foreign species, non-
| indigenous species, or non-native species is a species
| living outside its native distributional range, but which
| has arrived there by human activity, directly or
| indirectly, and either deliberately or accidentally.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduced_species
| cco wrote:
| > The term "invasive" is poorly defined and often very
| subjective.
|
| I too read the Wikipedia article and this sentence
| prompted me to survey a few other places. Federal law in
| the US for instance.
|
| Your quoted definition doesn't appear in the article
| covering _invasive_ species, only in "introduced species"
| which of course implies a human introduced them.
| morsch wrote:
| The first paragraph is Wikipedia's definition for
| _invasive species_ as _a kind of introduced species_ with
| additional attributes. It 's the first sentence in the
| article.
|
| US federal law might be different, I wouldn't know.
| dagmx wrote:
| The article says that grizzlies did use to exist on the island,
| so they'd not be invasive
| fbarred wrote:
| By that definition, horses that were introduced to North
| America by humans in 16th century are not invasive because
| they existed in North America 10,000 years ago.
| pvaldes wrote:
| So they fill a niche in a place that evolved with extinct
| horses and can sustain another species of horse. If they
| pass a threshold where they drink all the water for example
| (desert pools on Australia with endemic desert fishes),
| they became invasive and must go.
| dagmx wrote:
| The article also does say that Grizzlies come and go, that
| the significance here is it's a female with cubs. So it's
| not like grizzlies aren't present at all on the island.
|
| Of course there could be a boom but apex predators tend to
| not be super boomy since they'd outstrip their own
| resources first.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Not. Grizzlies aren't invasive here. A species is invasive
| basically if:
|
| 1) has been introduced directly or indirectly by man actions (a
| mosquito carried on a plane, a lost exotic pet). If arrived by
| its own means is not invasive.
|
| 2) is not a previous part of that ecosystem so it didn't
| evolved here; There are exceptions to this rule [1][2]
|
| 3) is reproducing in the new area (often explosively by lack of
| predators and diseases), also with some exceptions [3]; and
|
| 4) Will modify the ecosystem substantially (displacing or
| wiping other species in the process).
|
| Wolves on Yellowstone fulfill all points except 2. They aren't
| invasive. Apples on America don't fulfill points 2 and 4 so
| they are more healers than destroyers, and reproduce but not
| exponentially.
|
| ------------
|
| [1] Can be ignored when the new species fill a niche from an
| extinct one, "Healing" the ecosystem. Gray wolves proven to be
| solid healers for example. Turkeys on Mauritius island could be
| the only birds able to spread the seeds of some trees unable to
| reproduce since Dodo went extinct. In this case we can do an
| exception to save dozens of native species from going extinct.
|
| [2] Creating deliberately a sanctuary of a non native species
| to reduce the risk of being extinct in their own place, is also
| allowed.
|
| [3] neutered domestic cats, gone feral, are invasive, because
| there is still a constant supply from other areas.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| No. Species are not static. Large predators like grizzlies and
| wolves move in and out of areas over decades as they alter prey
| relatioships. It is hard to describe how vast and unmonitored
| this part of BC actually is. It is comparabke to the empty
| parts of alaska, but without the roads. Nobody believes that
| this is the first, or last, mother grizzly on the island. It
| may be the first known, or first recorded in the last century,
| but it will have happened before multiple times. It will be
| nothing new to nature, not in the long run.
|
| Another island near vancouver (bowen) is said to have no black
| bears. But given the population density of bears surrounding
| the island, Bowen could have black bears instantly. All it
| takes is one pregnant female getting scared enough to make the
| swim. If they arent there now, they likely were there in
| centuries past.
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| > It's also possible that people perceived grizzlies as more
| threatening and drove them away from food sources, perhaps even
| killing them.
|
| Kinda funny that this is framed as a less likely theory.
|
| If it was somewhat uncommon for bears to swim across the strait
| and there weren't too many, I think it's enormously likely that
| First Nations would have actively seeked to rid themselves of
| rare problem bears.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Ofc it's Sayward /s
|
| Vancouver Island is beautiful. If only the people's personalities
| were just as beautiful as the nature, but stuff may have changed
| since the mid-2000s.
|
| That said, Richmond was worse.
|
| Is the antique car and hot rod show still a thing in Comox?
| jdougan wrote:
| > If only the people's personalities were just as beautiful as
| the nature,
|
| Matthew 7:3
|
| > Is the antique car and hot rod show still a thing in Comox?
|
| Looks like it is: https://crownisle.com/event/hot-august-
| nights-classic-car-sh...
| steve3242 wrote:
| The specific location was kept out of publications for a while
| but unfortunately the cat is now out of the bag. It looks like an
| earlier story from near the end of August also divulged that
| info. Hopefully they are given space next year but there is a
| real risk that many people will now drive to that spot for a
| sighting. It was quite impressive that the location was kept out
| of publications for as long as it was but eventually someone had
| to ruin that.
| yowayb wrote:
| I think Vancouver is the best city in North America.
| brabel wrote:
| This is about Vancouver Island, which is NOT where Vancouver
| City is located.
| xrd wrote:
| I'm sad this magazine will be ending soon. They do such great
| writing.
|
| I was at orcas Island recently. I wanted to have my kids hear
| some good stories about the place, so I started asking anyone I
| met, "tell me a story about a dangerous animal attack here!"
|
| Everyone would just say, "hmm, there aren't any dangerous
| animals..."
|
| Then, one person said. "Well, there was that person that died
| from a bee sting."
|
| Then someone said "Sometimes the elk swim across the sound and
| come on the island." I decided I would tell my kids they came
| over to attack people but I had no evidence that was true.
|
| There were reports of bears getting confused and swimming over
| and they are quickly relocated.
|
| The most dangerous animal apparently is the mink. In the
| seventies a rogue employee at a mink farm released a bunch of
| them, and now they have overrun the place. And they can be
| vicious hunters. The person that told me that said he had a
| recent picture in the local newspaper of a mink that went into
| the ocean and captured an eel. His picture is of the mink rising
| from the waters with that eel in its mouth.
| ianbicking wrote:
| The mink story is interesting... presumably they are native,
| but had disappeared locally due to overhunting. But probably
| many of their competitors also disappeared (martins, weasels,
| etc) so there's an opening.
|
| Though even that wouldn't seem sufficient... it's not like
| minks are undergoing natural population booms elsewhere. Which
| makes me think that there's simply a critical mass advantage,
| like maybe mink are too anti-social for their own good.
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