[HN Gopher] Popular gut probiotic craps out in randomized contro...
___________________________________________________________________
Popular gut probiotic craps out in randomized controlled trial
Author : zdw
Score : 104 points
Date : 2024-10-05 13:23 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| zdw wrote:
| The headline is some of the best output I've recently seen.
| itronitron wrote:
| It's a solid and well-formed contribution.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Both of you sound like bots
| projektfu wrote:
| That was the wrong criticism and your model will need to be
| retrained. The correct response is "this isn't Reddit".
| exe34 wrote:
| good bot
| zdw wrote:
| Ah, I'm not definitely not todsacerdoti , who automated
| reposting all of lobste.rs to HN.
|
| My pithy comment was actually inspired by Sir Patrick
| Stewart's interview about his role in the Emoji movie:
| https://youtu.be/CgAIqP6hNlQ?t=215
| Ekaros wrote:
| I prefer these bots to those that prose profusely
| generating larger than human piles of crap...
| hedora wrote:
| Yeah, but the register is more regular. This one's been
| ripening for a decade and is as fresh as the day it was
| produced:
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2014/01/20/haribo_gummy_bears_im.
| ..
| morkalork wrote:
| Beth Mole is as consistent as ever
| ramesh31 wrote:
| Every so often you get the chance to make something perfect.
| Must have been a good day.
| the_sleaze_ wrote:
| Best gut related health I ever had was living in France and
| eating stinky raw cheeses and different fermented foods. Like
| clockwork.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Gotta hit up the cheese fests now
| darth_avocado wrote:
| There's two different effects hidden in that statement
|
| > living in France
|
| I have had similar experience where my gut health was
| immediately, noticeably better in Europe. I was eating the same
| foods and somehow it was better.
|
| > Eating stinky raw cheeses and different fermented foods
|
| Raw and fermented foods in cultures across the world are linked
| to better gut health. However, industrial fermentation and
| packaging won't help you as much because the diversity of
| microbes drops and packaging often kills most of them. We need
| to bring back the culture of home fermentation.
| waihtis wrote:
| > my gut health was immediately, noticeably better in Europe
|
| Its because a lot of the weird artificial junk that are
| allowed to be put into your food is illegal in Europe. Even
| things like popular sweeteners have been shown to have a
| negative effect on your gut health.
| hedora wrote:
| Most sweeteners also have been shown to cause more weight
| gain than sugar (they screw up your metabolism). Unless
| you're diabetic, there's literally no reason to consume
| them.
| cenamus wrote:
| I'd like to see a source on that, because (excessive)
| sugar literally causes diabetes.
|
| And of course high sweetener consumption is must be
| strongly linked with in general high calorie input and
| overweight people trying to reduce calorie consumption.
| Spivak wrote:
| Your first point probably isn't actually true. The
| research that first connected the two showed that across
| a population sugar consumption up -> diabetes rates up.
| But it turns out that when you control for weight the
| effect of sugar specifically is much much smaller. To the
| point where if you're a healthy weight your sweet tooth
| isn't moving the needle.
| Spivak wrote:
| Oh that's not true at all. First I think they taste
| better, they're sweet without being syrup-y. Second it
| allows me to drink a lot of soda, 5+ cans a day adds up
| when it has calories. I have no expectation that it helps
| me lose weight, it's just tastier water.
|
| It's funny that folks will look down on diet soda but
| then be fine with tea and coffee and sports drinks like
| the bubbles make it meaningfully different.
| riffraff wrote:
| 5+ cans of soda a day seems unhealthy even if it's not
| caloric, the gas and acid will mess up your stomach.
|
| It is not just tastier water.
| Spivak wrote:
| Given that in France "water" means carbonated water and
| you have to specifically ask for "still water" I can't
| imagine the gas being that bad for you.
|
| Acid I can get behind but soda is by far the least acidic
| thing I consume on the daily.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| The carbonation creates carbonic acid in your teeth. It's
| a huge driver of calories.
|
| Of the of the issues with diet soda in particular is your
| tastes favor sweets. I used to drink 4-8 cans of Diet Dr
| Pepper daily. When I stopped, after a couple of weeks I
| found my taste preferences to be very different. I'd
| favor savory more attractive and sweet stuff would seem
| too sweet.
| loeg wrote:
| No, they have not. The evidence points the opposite way
| (people lose more weight on non-nutritive sweeteners than
| sugar).
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Also non-flouridated, non-chlorinated water.
| manoweb wrote:
| I lived most of my life in an alpine European village;
| water was chlorinated and flourinated, more than in my
| current US location. There was a huge difference in
| mineral content, US water being almost distilled (1 to 3
| French degrees hardness) VS something like 15-20 in
| Europe
| azinman2 wrote:
| Water hardness varies by location worldwide, including
| the US.
| pfdietz wrote:
| Non-flouridated is gluten-free, right?
| verisimi wrote:
| Artisanal
| sroussey wrote:
| The preservatives in flour / bread / etc are illegal in
| Europe. My sister is allergic and can't have any bread in
| the USA. But can in France and Italy.
| waihtis wrote:
| Yeah, things like titanium dioxide are considered a
| carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on
| Cancer (IARC) yet FDA says its safe for use in food. But
| i guess trust the science and authorities
| raydev wrote:
| Please share the names of these preservatives.
| 10xalphadev wrote:
| Durex and Trustex.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Europe puts plenty of E numbers in their food (the US just
| spells it out versus hiding it under a number). There are
| things illegal in the US that are used in food in Europe. A
| lot of the time, at least for things like pesticides, the
| different is country of origin of manufacturer.
| jenny91 wrote:
| E numbers have very little to do with this. They are just
| a way to categorize food additives.
| azinman2 wrote:
| What else would you characterize " weird artificial junk"
| as?
| mikrl wrote:
| Growing up in the EU in the 00s there was always the
| public health concerns of E numbers causing this or that.
|
| Ironic in a way, because E numbers mean that the specific
| chemical has been cleared as a foodstuff in the EU, IIRC.
|
| Though I suppose it's more concerning if an approved
| substance has some unforeseen effect versus an unapproved
| one and you'd want to investigate further.
|
| I guess it shows how government regulation of naturally
| occurring substances (though perhaps synthesized, or
| refined) carries with it a new set of incentives, and
| reasons to be political. Not that I'm against regulation,
| but it's hard if not impossible to have a truly
| politically neutral approach.
| raydev wrote:
| > a lot of the weird artificial junk that are allowed to be
| put into your food is illegal in Europe
|
| What are some examples? A list would be helpful.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| I don't follow this too closely, but having been in
| Europe for a few weeks, the food tastes noticeably better
| and is often cheaper than the US.
|
| One of the things you notice is shorter ingredient lists
| on prepared food. The ingredients in Italy for McDonald's
| French fries are: potato, salt, oil. In the US there's
| 7-8 including hydrogenated soybean oil and flavor/color
| agents. Oreos were similarly different, and arguably
| better tasting.
|
| I believe they regulate flavors and coloring additives
| differently, and many people feel both of these type of
| items can be problematic.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| But of course can never happen because it only takes a
| minority to cry about a few factual bad stories and present
| the fallacious "is it worth it" argument. "Is your epicurian
| enjoyment worth even one dead baby?" And a majority who have
| no reason to think much about it go along with it because no
| one will say "yes it's worth it" and few are able to
| articulate how the question was invalid in the first place.
|
| The opposite minority argument, that variety, depth,
| richness, are important, not luxuries, don't have their own
| dead babies to present. They do exist, but they aren't
| visible except in aggregate. You can measure a change in
| average health over the course of entire generations, and
| from that you can extrapolate the change in number or
| frequency of deaths, and then you could compare numbers of
| dead babies. But you can't obviously show any particular
| cause & effect because there are so many other variables, and
| even if you could, it took entire generations whole lives
| lived and died before they could benefit anyway.
| tyre wrote:
| okay wow deep breath, you can just ferment things at home,
| it's fine, I did it twice last week
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| That doesn't actually solve anything.
| daneel_w wrote:
| How do you know until you've fermented something at home
| and risked life, limb, dead babies etc. by consuming it?
| I think more people die from food poisoning in
| restaurants each year than people do from doing something
| stupid while making sourdough bread, natto, tempeh,
| kombucha, beer, wine etc. at home.
| elcritch wrote:
| Also, it's usually pretty obvious when fermenting goes
| bad. My take is fermentation takes a while which really
| allows the biological process to become really positive
| or really rancid.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| It doesn't solve anything because it's an individual
| action to a societal problem.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| _But of course can never happen_
|
| Home fermentation of foodstuffs is allowed, and always has
| been.
|
| Lots of people do it. Kits are available on Amazon, and
| many grocery stores will even sell them in-store. As other
| people on this thread of have pointed out, they ferment a
| lot of their own foods and drinks.
|
| What isn't allowed is _selling_ home-fermented stuff to
| others. When someone goes commercial, rules kick in to
| protect their customers
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| What can never happen is the majority agreeing that it's
| good, and actually doing it, and having this become so
| accepted that it is no longer disallowed for selling.
| Without selling, most people will not get it.
|
| It's possible. A wave could go through where it becomes
| popular and the majority adopt some new attitude on that
| topic. But it "can never" because of the dynamic I
| expressed. That works against it. The new thought is not
| developing in a vacuum.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| _having this become so accepted that it is no longer
| disallowed for selling._
|
| This is a nonsensical train of thought that conflates
| multiple distinct issues.
|
| Fermented products are already widely sold in stores and
| restaurants. And homemade foodstuffs _can already be
| sold_ but are subject to the same rules and regulations
| that govern foods made in commercial facility. These
| rules generally preclude the sale of homemade fermented
| foodstuffs, because the risk of contamination if the
| foods are improperly fermented is extremely high and most
| home kitchens lack the necessary equipment or facilities
| needed because this is all very expensive compared to
| consumer equipment. This is why there are so few
| fermented foodstuffs available at farmer 's markets in
| the U.S.; the initial capital outlay puts it out of
| reach.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I agree about diversity. We use a very limited range of
| cultures in mass manufactured foods.
| murukesh_s wrote:
| >I have had similar experience where my gut health was
| immediately, noticeably better in Europe. I was eating the
| same foods and somehow it was better.
|
| Could be due to you being in a better mental state. Gut-brain
| axis is very evident for me personally. If I am tense gut is
| the first to get affected.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| The refusal to over-industrialise food in Europe (compare
| to the US) leads to higher quality, more "natural" food.
| FredPret wrote:
| Another possibility: dishwashers are more rare in Europe -
| the soap residue some of them leaves on irritates some
| stomachs.
| looperhacks wrote:
| That sounds counter-intuitive? I doubt most people take the
| time to rinse everything off with clear water. Dishwashers
| on the other hand always have a rinsing step
| pfdietz wrote:
| Maybe the problem is rinse aids in dishwashers? These
| prevent spotting on glass by adding detergent.
|
| I just put water in the rinse aid dispenser of my
| dishwasher.
| bluGill wrote:
| redacted, see correct info in replies
| pfdietz wrote:
| I don't believe that's true. To quote wikipedia: "Rinse
| aid (sometimes called rinse agent) contains surfactants
| and uses Marangoni stress to prevent droplet formation,
| so that water drains from the surfaces in thin sheets,
| rather than forming droplets."
|
| Looking at the back of a bottle of Finish Jet Dry (which
| I have refilled with water), the original stuff's first
| ingredient (after water) is "C 12-15 Alcohols Ethoxylated
| Propoxylated". These are nonionic surfactants, and are
| not what one normally means by "alcohol" (ethanol).
|
| I can understand where the idea came from. Drinks like
| wine will exhibit sheeting on the sides of glasses too.
| The concentration of alcohol needed for that to happen is
| probably too high in a dishwasher, I'd imagine.
| pxndxx wrote:
| Yeah but dishwasher soap is a different kind of soap,
| it's way stronger. Plus dishwashers also use rinse aid
| which has its own set of problems.
| AyyEye wrote:
| There is enough residue left over that even diluted 1:10
| its still cytotoxic. [1]
|
| I seem to recall a post here a while ago showing that
| dishwasher residue was genotoxic as well but can't find
| it atm.
|
| [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S00
| 9167492...
| selimthegrim wrote:
| It was about the rinse aids in commercial dishwashers at
| commercial dose levels. Residential levels were not shown
| to be harmful.
| homarp wrote:
| https://www.statista.com/forecasts/1174175/dishwasher-
| owners...
| FredPret wrote:
| I'd love to see this stat but I don't have access - mind
| posting the gist of it?
| jajko wrote:
| My wife recently got Kombucha mushroom from a friend, and got
| into fermenting it herself. Its trivial to do, you need to
| really screw up something for it to go wrong, tons of good
| bacteria inside. She takes some basic precautions like avoiding
| metal parts (since the drink becomes acidic), otherwise its on
| autopilot, good bacteria outcompete everything else for
| resources.
|
| She mixes it with some cut fruits to get some sugars for
| fermentation, the result is very mild alcohol content (maybe
| 0.5%) and it tastes like cider. I mix it maybe 1:3 with water
| and its semi-eternal homemade drink. Can't really complain.
|
| That and of course french cheese, we live maybe 5km from French
| border and for cheese its much better place than even
| Switzerland (sorry guys gruyere is great but french variety is
| huuuuge in comparison and they even usually have specialties
| like old dutch gouda which is taste heaven for me and various
| truffle-infused ones).
| Y_Y wrote:
| Fyi kombucha isn't made from a "mushroom". It's a combination
| of bacteria and yeast and can be found in the liquid itself
| or the pellicle (blob of organic tissue) that forms during
| fermentation.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCOBY
| murkt wrote:
| Wow, hearing about "tea mushroom" (that's how it's called
| in Ukraine) for my whole life, and it's not a mushroom!
|
| Fascinating.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Well, it is a partly a yeast, which is a fungus, as are
| mushrooms. The main thing is that it is a symbiotic
| combination of particular yeast and bacteria strains,
| unlike what is used for brewing alcoholic drinks (just
| yeast) or fermenting dairy into yogurt (just bacteria).
|
| Kefir is another combination of yeast and bacteria,
| though different strains.
| bloaf wrote:
| There are some choices you can make that seem innocuous but
| dramatically increase the chances of lethal outcomes, like
| using corn or coconut.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXnSYfv6bCA
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongkrek_acid
| jajko wrote:
| Thank you, I would never thought about using corn for such
| stuff, but that coconut surprised me
| maxerickson wrote:
| Are you lactose intolerant?
|
| A small amount of lactose can have a sort of laxative effect
| without causing discomfort.
| trilbyglens wrote:
| Should be noted that constipation relief is far from the only
| benefit that probiotics provide to your gut biome. Healthy gut
| biome has been linked to lower levels of depression and lots of
| other things seemingly unrelated.
| raincole wrote:
| > Should be noted that constipation relief is far from the only
| benefit that probiotics provide to your gut biome.
|
| You mean _claimed to_ provide.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Anecdotal but I'm on a very strict diet, to the point where I
| have the same thing every meal, every day. There's certain
| probiotics I take that help bowel movements and some that
| slow things down. It's very repeatable and given I eat the
| same thing every meal every day and I'm on a regular eating
| and activity schedule that leaves very little other
| variables.
|
| My guess is that for regular people the benefit is
| insignificant but it's greater for people with issues
| (dysbiosis).
|
| And the type of dysbiosis you have will determine the effect
| of the probiotics. For some it can slow motility or cause
| constipation and others increase motility or cause diarrhea.
|
| There's so many internal variables with your gut microbiome
| and there's a general lack of reliable methods to test your
| microbiome. This makes tests like these really difficult and
| also makes it difficult to treat digestion issues. Because of
| this, all gastro doctors can really do is slap on IBS/IBS
| label but not really have a course of action with any decent
| success rate.
| homebrewer wrote:
| Read the article, placebo was just as effective as these
| "probiotics".
| ecef9-8c0f-4374 wrote:
| Wasn't this only about supplementation?
| spants wrote:
| If you want to improve your gut health, stop eating meat and go
| vegan. But most of you would rather take meds instead.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Some people have dysbiosis which makes it impossible to have
| most vegetables
| shermantanktop wrote:
| People who have things which are exotic, rare, or complicated
| don't present some kind of existence proof against advice
| directed at a general population which doesn't have those
| conditions.
| bryant wrote:
| If the concern is just meat, why not go vegetarian instead?
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| Wearing this leather belt is what's causing my constipation.
| hinkley wrote:
| Get a bigger belt, friend.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| What kind of vegetarian? Some allow eating eggs and dairy.
| Some allow fish or even birds.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Because it's more about being an absolutist snob than
| anything. Vegans don't eat honey. If I have a pet hen I can't
| eat the eggs? Ridiculous.
| wusher wrote:
| I had the exact opposite experience. when I stopped eating meat
| I got worse. When I stopped eating vegetables I got better. I'm
| not saying you shouldn't eat vegetables, I'm saying your claim
| isn't as strong as you think it is and peoples gut issues are
| different.
| dpassens wrote:
| Am I misunderstanding or do you really not eat any vegetables
| at all, not even in a dish with meat?
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Some friends of mine tried the carnivore diet for a while.
| From what I understood they did not eat meat dishes that
| included vegetables.
| lepus wrote:
| A lot of people go all in on increasing dietary fiber and
| then experience gut issues and think it must be the plants
| when they didn't work into it slowly enough. It's like going
| to the gym and and feeling sore all over all the time or even
| getting injured and then concluding that going to the gym is
| bad when no one told you that you should start easy. In my
| opinion there's harm in how people fail to communicate how to
| get started on plant based diets when they miss important
| issues like this that can permanently put people off from it.
| loeg wrote:
| There's absolutely no evidence that a vegan diet provides a
| benefit for gut health relative to a diet including meat.
| homebrewer wrote:
| Just wondering, have you ever managed to convert or convince a
| single person by acting like a stereotypical vegan?
| kstenerud wrote:
| If you're not going to judge people, then why bother at all?
| hinkley wrote:
| How do you know if someone is a vegan?
| cwbriscoe wrote:
| Don't worry, they will tell you.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Some friends of mine tried the carnivore diet. One thing they
| noticed was improved gut health.
| njtransit wrote:
| It's interesting that both groups had their number of bowel
| movements double or more. Perhaps a lot of constipation is
| actually dehydration.
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Like this magic pill to loose weight that you need to take
| before every meal with large glass of water, where pill is
| optional.
| tyre wrote:
| or Emegen-C or hangover cures
| jeltz wrote:
| If they contain some salt they are better than just water.
| Nifty3929 wrote:
| If you take one of these little pills with a large glass of
| water for every alcoholic beverage you drink, then it will
| prevent hangovers.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Bingo. These finding probably aren't much of a surprise to
| many. Hydration is huge, as is having a well functioning and
| diverse biome that you feed regularly with raw fruits and
| vegetables. I have had my biome die back to the point of
| medical emergency and had to restore it. Keifer, various Greek
| yogurts, etc did nothing to help. I took half a bottle of a few
| pills that were loaded with different strains. Not only did it
| restore bowel function to its former glory, it improved my
| health overall and I feel like a teenager again (46). I was
| deficient and suffering for decades and just thought it was
| normal. It dawned on me that most people are likely suffering.
|
| I'm far too overweight for my liking but now I don't feel fat.
| Restoring the biome made me stronger and more resilient (my
| muscles stay stronger between workouts). I just feel good all
| the time now. Before this I had psychologically written myself
| off as dying and was ready to accept my fate.
| lukevp wrote:
| This sounds super interesting. The pills you are talking
| about are probiotics? Have some links to which ones you took
| and maybe some research you did about this?
| datavirtue wrote:
| Check my other replies for the brands. I don't think it
| matters as long as the quality is assured. I had known
| about probiotics for decades but never realized how
| fundamental they were to overall health. When I was going
| through this I just thought about my symptoms and took a
| hail Mary with this treatment. Bowel movements were
| extremely stressful at that stage. I was depriving myself
| of anything solid to alleviate the issues but overall I was
| not getting better. Previous to that I was doing fine, or
| so I thought. I never ate out, rarely ate meat or anything
| processed.
|
| You will know when it's restored, you can even eat garbage
| (meat, processed foods) and your gut will process it and
| move on. You should be able to notice the subtle changes
| when you eat something that does not digest readily. It's
| not the acid and body mechanics, it's mostly the bacteria
| giving you life by breaking down nutrients and solids. Feed
| it what it needs and it will sustain itself. Raw and
| fermented vegetables.
| maxerickson wrote:
| Meat is nutritious and very satisfying per calorie, it is
| not "garbage". To think it is garbage is to have a very
| confused view of nutrition.
| calf wrote:
| Wait what. I am 99% convinced my gas and bowel problem, an
| impairment at this point, is IBS or SIBO that started 12
| years ago. I never thought a about just taking a half bottle
| of pills to see what would happen, I am going to have to look
| into this.
| olyjohn wrote:
| What the hell? Half bottle of what pills? Are you and the
| parent a bot?
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Probiotic pills presumably.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Half a bottle over two weeks. Geesh.
| elcritch wrote:
| I'm assuming the parent meant pills with few different
| strains. Seems like a massive dose of a few different
| strains would approach that of a fecal transplant.
| datavirtue wrote:
| You can't just slam pills. The pills contain the bacterium.
| You have to send it raw vegetables to feed it so it
| multiplies and sustains itself.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > These finding probably aren't much of a surprise to many.
|
| Conversely, you might be surprised at how many this is new
| information. Just because you learned something does not mean
| everyone hearing the information at the same time. Some
| people require hearing/reading something new only one time,
| others takes many attempts. I think the number of people that
| walk around with a suboptimal fluid intake is much higher
| than we might hope, especially in the USA
| kbmr wrote:
| Which pills specifically did you take?
| captain_coffee wrote:
| what did you take - specifically?
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| You should return and tell us with some specificity what you
| took.
| datavirtue wrote:
| I'm hesitant to mention brands. Any independently tested
| product with a wide variety of strains should be good. I
| started on Physicians Choice from Amazon and followed up
| with Garden of Life (not sure who sells it). During repair
| phase I would only eat salads made of hand shredded green
| and purple cabbage and kale. Equal amounts cabbage kale
| mixture and shredded ice berg lettuce. I used ranch
| dressing and added other vegetables and crushed corn chips.
| To each his own.
|
| These were huge salads. I couldn't even think of eating
| anything else after I finished them.
| gus_massa wrote:
| I agree, and that's why they used a " _randomized triple-blind
| placebo-controlled clinical trial_ ".
| MostlyStable wrote:
| That's plausible, but also, could be the frequent things just
| getting better on their own over time.
| XorNot wrote:
| This is about Bifidobacterium animalis subsp. lactis.
|
| Personally I take L. Reuteri supplements, which for me have made
| an unbelievable difference in suffering from IBS symptoms (and
| have some clinical evidence to support having an effect). This
| was a result a recommendation somewhere else on HN about 2 years
| ago now, so I'll pass it forward whenever the topic comes up.
|
| In my experience it took about 3 months to see effects (during
| which time I did feel somewhat worse), and currently if something
| happens - i.e. I get sick - then there's a bit of reversion
| towards feeling bad. But: I was also able to stop taking them for
| about 6-9 months before it seemed like the effect was
| diminishing.
| graeme wrote:
| Which version of L. Reuteri did you take?
| bloopernova wrote:
| This has helped some folks' IBS symptoms: https://www.vsl3.com/
|
| Contains: Streptococcus thermophilus
| Bifidobacterium breve Bifidobacterium lactis (previously
| classified as B. longum) Bifidobacterium lactis
| (previously classified as B. infantis) Lactobacillus
| acidophilus Lactobacillus plantarum Lactobacillus
| paracasei Lactobacillus helveticus (previously classified
| as L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus)
|
| I'll have to research L Reuteri, thank you for mentioning it.
| eth0up wrote:
| Might include b. subtilis on your list.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| For what it's worth, I always thought that yogurts, etc. are
| better at slowing down digestion/dealing with diarrhea than
| constipation.
| guilhas wrote:
| That is my experience too. Although *google says this probiotic
| is associated with both diarrhea and constipation, by improving
| gastrointestinal health
|
| And would probably depend on what caused their constipation
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Whenever some theme gets broad advertising, I get suspicious.
| "Helps boost the immune system!" -- WTF does that mean?
|
| "Probiotics for gut health!" -- yeah, right. Get back to me in 10
| years when you have some actual evidence.
| mg wrote:
| There is a lot of confusion on how to interpret studies.
|
| The reasoning of this article seems to be "The study did not
| produce a significant result, therefore the treatment is
| ineffective".
|
| But that is not how to think about significance.
|
| Otherwise, you could show for any treatment that it is
| ineffective. By simply doing a study small enough to produce an
| insignificant result.
| loeg wrote:
| True, but in this case the study sponsor is financially
| motivated to find a non-null result, not a null result.
| jessriedel wrote:
| This mistake is so unbelievably frequent. Need a concise quip
| like "correlation isn't causation".
| samuraijack wrote:
| Why is it interesting to just test one brand of probiotic with a
| single strain of bacteria?
|
| Surprised to see it on arstechnica and HN.
| loeg wrote:
| The companies selling products containing that bacteria would
| like to sell more units. Agree that the null result is not
| super interesting.
| SammyStacks wrote:
| Yeah, both the title and content of the arstechnica are
| spreading misinformation. The mainstream media has always been
| terrible at accurately representing the findings of a given
| academic study, but this is disappointing.
|
| The study was conducted with people who had chronic
| constipation as measured by complete spontaneous bowel
| movements (CSBMs). A bowel movement qualifies as a CSBM if the
| individual had not used a laxative within the last 24 hours.
| Prior to intervention, participants had a mean of 0.77
| CSBMs/week with an SD of 1.0. That is quite extreme so the
| results of the study cannot be generalized to the general
| public.
|
| Additionally, both the probiotic group and control group
| experienced positive effects, even if the probiotic group
| didn't outperform the control group. That's extremely
| meaningful and requires further investigation. Perhaps the
| belief of taking a digestive supplement caused individuals
| lower stress and/or motivated other healthy lifestyle changes?
| Science shouldn't be viewing the placebo effect as evidence
| that something else is BS; we need to view the placebo effect
| as a psychological tool to effect positive change.
|
| Finally, the study tested only one bacteria strain. I have not
| seen any recommended probiotic supplement that includes only
| one strain of bacteria.
|
| More research is needed; the title is clickbait and the article
| doesn't sufficiently emphasize the major limitations of the
| study. Really a shame to see that type of reporting.
| gojomo wrote:
| I'd never heard a single strain could affect constipation, so
| these results unsurprising.
|
| Where attention to the gut biome has really saved lives is when a
| person has massive Clostridium difficile overgrowth - which is
| more associated with uncontrollable diarrhea than constipation.
| This state of extreme illness is typically only possible because
| prior antibiotic use cleared out the natural variety of commensal
| bacteria that normally keeps this particular strain at bay (or
| totally absent).
|
| In such cases, people near death can bounce back after a full-
| spectrum "fecal microbiome transplant" (FMT) where all of the
| hundreds-or-more of distinct bacterial species are transferred
| from a healthy donor to the patient.
|
| It's quite hard to package all those sensitive, beneficial,
| adapted-just-to-the-human-gut strains for reproducible evaluation
| & administration - so FMT is hard to fit into standard medical
| studies & FDA approval processes.
|
| But sometimes a mere dot's worth of a healthy person's feces can
| be a miracle cure for someone else! So, a company has driven an
| approval of _their_ particular $10k-per-treatment shit-pill
| through FDA processes, and partially as a consequence, the FDA
| has been cracking down on people arranging FMTs in less-formal &
| far-cheaper ways - despite a great record of safety and
| effectiveness.
|
| A well-informed & highly-opinionated rant on this topic: "A
| Monopoly on Poop"
| https://stephenskolnick.substack.com/p/a-monopoly-on-poop
| rbattula wrote:
| im over ars
| ptsneves wrote:
| It also became a site I rarely visit compared to some years
| back when I did several times a day and even subscribed. They
| have some good writers in house but otherwise it has descended
| into politics and pop culture movies and gadgets, with the odd
| ode to violence like monkey torture stories or Viking
| eviscerations. The space news are maybe the best online.
| frereubu wrote:
| After getting really annoyed with the pseudoscientific naming
| around this I built a whole site about it a couple of decades ago
| to get to the top of search results and got threatened with a
| lawsuit by Danone...
|
| https://whatisbifidusregularis.org/
| nikolay wrote:
| Don't buy probiotics - eat quality grass-fed organic yogurt (such
| as Trimona [0]) and home-made sauerkraut - these have centuries
| of evidence. As a Bulgaria, we traditional make sauerkraut every
| year. It's pretty easy to have it, you just need a little more
| attention to it in the first weeks. The juice is amazing, too.
| You can buy it from Amazon [1].
|
| [0]: https://trimonafoods.com/
|
| [1]: https://amzn.to/3ZO0Sxl
| permo-w wrote:
| and by "evidence" you mean?
| nikolay wrote:
| Longevity in general (don't judge by today's fully Lidl-ized
| & Kaufland-ized diet of modern Bulgarians). The research
| dates back to the 19th century and Ilya Ilyich Mechnikov [0].
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lie_Metchnikoff
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| https://nutritionsource.hsph.harvard.edu/food-
| features/yogur...
| jessriedel wrote:
| That article says
|
| > Epidemiological research on specific health effects of
| yogurt is still limited but a few studies suggest a
| benefit.
|
| It then describes three non-randomized observational
| studies.
| nikolay wrote:
| That's the issue with nutrition - you can't really
| randomize as every person is on a different diet that's
| hard to control. Plus, how are you going to radomize when
| people know what they're eating - you can't create non-
| yogurt that's identical to yogurt for the controls!
| guilhas wrote:
| More specifically "probiotic X didn't work for Chinese people
| with constipation"
|
| But that's a typical arstechnica title
| sgc wrote:
| Apparently almost any strain of lactobacillus should be able to
| make some type of yogurt (each one with a distinct flavor). I
| have taken relatively expensive probiotic supplements sold in a
| very famous supermarket in the US known for this type of thing
| (yes, that one), which claim to have close to a dozen strains of
| lactobacillus. It was utterly incapable of even beginning to make
| yogurt. It was just plain milk at the end of the process, not
| even a discernible yogurty taste to it. On the other hand, we had
| great success using a cheap yogurt starter we found sitting
| around that had expired 5 years ago. I would love to have a full
| spectrum of probiotics, but can't spend the money to actually
| find one that works, so I have to stick to homemade yogurt.
| albertsw wrote:
| Huberman [1] lists several studies emphasising mucrobiota
| diversity and health as the major factor. These studies seen to
| find that the way to get it is fermented foods, like sauerkraut,
| kimchi, kefir etc. and that commercial probiotics don't seem to
| do much.
|
| [1] https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter/6-key-tools-to-
| improv...
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| The thing that has treated acute IBS episodes for me is ib guard.
| The green box. Though I'm pretty sure the primary ingredient is
| just peppermint oil.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-10-05 23:01 UTC)