[HN Gopher] Dance training superior to physical exercise in indu...
___________________________________________________________________
Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain
plasticity (2018)
Author : Tomte
Score : 301 points
Date : 2024-10-03 14:01 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (journals.plos.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (journals.plos.org)
| riffic wrote:
| embodied cognition is definitely an interesting concept to
| explore. I know I get really interesting thoughts when I go for a
| walk.
|
| https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/
| cdiamand wrote:
| "Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and
| spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged."
|
| So, the dance group showed increase volume of brain matter. Is
| there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it
| doesn't lead to improved cognition?
|
| Is it possible that increased volume just helped them become
| better dancers?
| aithrowawaycomm wrote:
| Musical cognition is loosely connected to attention (maybe
| disconnected entirely by this metric, music seems special) and
| spatial memory is irrelevant. So "better dancers" seems a bit
| myopic, they might be improving their understanding of rhythm
| and melody in a more general sense.
|
| (IMO the headline-level conclusion of this study is
| unsurprising - dancing is far more cognitively demanding than
| gym exercise!)
| yapyap wrote:
| > Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if
| it doesn't lead to improved cognition?
|
| ever seen megamind?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Cognition and memory are easily measurable brain functions but
| are not the exclusive function of the brain. As a conserving
| machine a healthy brain building volume is indicative of
| improvement in some function otherwise it wouldn't bother
| building the volume.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I got into dance a few years ago, and N=1 sure, but the big
| changes I observed as a result were improvements in
| proprioception, balance, sense of tempo, and I also gained the
| ability to deconstruct music in my head, and listen to
| different parts of it (e.g. only pay attention to the guitar or
| the drums or the vocals).
|
| Like does this make me better at programming? Probably not. But
| the skills you gain do have other usages outside of dance, and
| honestly also kind of enrich life in general.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Balance training (standing on a ball type thing) also is supposed
| to help ADHD.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Can you link anything on the subject? Sounds like a simple
| device you could own at home and spend 10m a day on balancing.
| vitaflo wrote:
| Really don't even need a device. I practice balancing on one
| leg with my eyes closed while brushing my teeth every morning
| (I've progressively made it harder over time). I mostly do
| this to keep up my balance skills for mountain biking and
| it's helped quite a bit, especially during winter when I ride
| less.
| username44 wrote:
| You mentioned progressively making it harder, I've seen the
| following strategies to make balancing more difficult.
| Combining them all can be challenging:
|
| 1. Arms crossed on your chest 2. Eyes closed 3. Swinging
| your head left and right, like an exaggerated "no"
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| on the opposite end of simple-or-cheap, e-foiling Does train
| your balance. esp. in windy "cabbage-salad" waves with
| medusas and rubbish floating around :/
| changing1999 wrote:
| This (intuitively) makes sense, since standing on a ball
| requires full focus, can't really get distracted.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active
| cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not
| falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little
| shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done
| automatically.
| changing1999 wrote:
| Not on a balancing ball. It's far far harder than staying
| upright on a bicycle. You have to stay focused and control
| several muscle groups. Not falling even for a minute is a
| very challenging task. Being able to balance for 10 minutes
| is basically elite level.
| userbinator wrote:
| Once it's moving, a bicycle basically balances itself.
| That's why the hardest part of learning to ride one is
| starting and stopping.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| You still need to adjust your balance. If you send a
| bicycle off without a rider, it will tip over after a
| while.
|
| Same with standing up. Needs constant small adjustments.
| HPsquared wrote:
| A bicycle without a rider will keep going straight (maybe
| on a slight curve if the frame is misaligned) so long as
| it has enough speed.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| On a mathematical plane in vacuum it will. On uneven
| ground and turbulent air, it will not.
| HPsquared wrote:
| The most likely outcome, provided it doesn't lose too
| much speed, is to hit an obstacle. This happens all the
| time with motorcycles which are just heavy bicycles. The
| angle of the forks causes the bicycle to self-balance.
|
| Examples over "rough conditions":
| https://youtu.be/yNbOh0N3BSs https://youtu.be/9ewqeheLL_I
| idle_cycles wrote:
| "Fifty-two seniors (25 males; 27 females) aged 63-80 years were
| then randomly assigned to the experimental dance group (DG) and
| the control sport group (SG) controlling for age, MMSE status and
| physical fitness." I wonder if these findings remain true for
| young or middle aged adults.
| klyrs wrote:
| > For the present exploratory study, we designed an especially
| challenging dance program in which our elderly participants
| constantly had to learn novel and increasingly difficult
| choreographies. This six-month-long program was compared to
| conventional fitness training matched for intensity.
|
| The result seems bloody obvious to me as a dancer. Dance _is_
| exercise. And this wasn 't just dance, they were learning moves
| and choreography. Like, no duh, teaching people new and
| complicated things increases neuroplasticity! According to the
| quote there, the activities were matched in physical intensity
| and one treatment added a significant mental component versus
| the control.
|
| Compare dance to rowing, lifting, spinning etc. Those
| activities are regularly accomplished by a brainless motor.
| That such activities induce neuroplasticity is cool, but it's
| no shock that more enriching activities are better for the
| brain.
|
| I think it's obvious that a younger person's brain would be
| more improved by this class than your ordinary seniors
| athletics program. I'd be more inclined to compare with other
| low-impact competitive sport: badminton, table tennis, etc.
| Like dance, those require full-body coordination, planning,
| reflexes, etc.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| > Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger
| volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate
| cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only
| dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels.
| Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and
| spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged
| casual.
| noelwelsh wrote:
| I think the difference in outcomes is likely to be down to
| "continuous learning of new movement patterns and choreographies"
| vs "participants performed the same exercises repeatedly ... We
| avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep
| coordinative demands low".
|
| That said, I think dance is great.
| klyrs wrote:
| That said, dance is a really fun way to package repetitive
| movements. And if younger people did more of it, the men on
| this site would spend less time bitching about how hard it is
| to meet women. *cough*
| michaelteter wrote:
| Yes, you will "meet" more women by dancing than by playing
| games on your computer. That doesn't necessarily mean you
| will make any meaningful connections.
|
| Simply going places and interacting with people will also
| help you meet women. In fact, I think you'd sooner find a
| date by becoming a grocery store employee than a dancer,
| because you're more likely to be having conversations with
| the people you meet.
|
| Dancing, especially where you are learning, is not really
| socializing.
|
| The structure of our modern society really does make it more
| difficult to meet new people. Women complain too, not just
| men.
| klyrs wrote:
| If you want to meet people, there's a lot of skill and
| patience required, no matter the venue.
|
| Dancing is rather uniquely suited to meeting people.
| Dancing signals fitness and physical competency directly to
| the lizard brain. Of course, if you're bad at those things,
| you won't succeed in an environment of such honest
| signalling.
|
| And of course, if you go to a dance class and ask somebody
| out after the first session, that's desperation. If you're
| there _just_ to meet people, your dishonest intent will
| shine through. Note that I didn 't say young people should
| dance _just_ to meet people -- I said that they should be
| dancing more, and that meeting people is a _side effect_.
| Don 't be sleazy.
|
| The real trick to meeting people is that you can't _try_ to
| make people like you. You need to relax and be yourself. It
| takes time to establish mutual fit, and the moment that 's
| clear, you must act decisively. At that point, any effort
| you put towards that specific person will have a good
| chance of being received well. After you've been in and out
| of the arms of every other person in the room over the
| course of several months, you'll have much better
| perspective on how each feels about your presence. You
| won't flub it, you won't ask the wrong person, and your
| confidence will be well-earned.
| mlyle wrote:
| Not specific to dance here, but just replying to your
| general thesis:
|
| The "just be yourself" advice is so hard, because it's
| what actually works, but it's also difficult to do when
| you care about the outcome.
|
| And, of course, it has a prerequisite of a whole lot of
| work to make "yourself" into something worthwhile and
| interesting. Of course one would like a shortcut that
| still works if you've not done the prior coursework. ;)
| scotty79 wrote:
| > The "just be yourself" advice is so hard, because it's
| what actually work
|
| For attractive people or at least those whose
| attractiveness is not totally niche
| mlyle wrote:
| Nah. I'm not conventionally attractive. But still,
| figuring out how to better myself, and then just -relax-
| and be myself, was what built meaningful connections.
| klyrs wrote:
| Of the dozens of men I work with, two are eligible
| bachelors. Both are above-average in their physical
| attractiveness. I promise you, that is not what women are
| looking for.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Is it being yourself then?
| munificent wrote:
| I think I met the _majority_ of my dating partners
| including my wife on a dancefloor. (Well, technically I had
| met my wife before. But we reconnected at a club.)
|
| Dancing at nightclubs is great. Assuming you can find one
| whose crowd is your kind of people, it's one of the few
| remaining venues where people of all genders and
| orientations mix and it's considered socially acceptable to
| initiate a conversation with someone with romantic intent.
|
| The problem with being a grocery store employee to meet
| people is that there are a very logical taboo against
| hitting on employees that are obligated to interact with
| you. Likewise, employers generally don't want employees
| hitting on their customers. So, sure, you might be able to
| meet people this way, but you have to skirt some social
| norms to do so.
| michaelteter wrote:
| Nightclub dancing is usually social dancing, not dance
| training. Yes, nightclubs can be good places to meet
| people (and potential lovers/mates). But dance classes
| (dance training as per the study) is very different.
| foobar1962 wrote:
| > Yes, you will "meet" more women by dancing than by
| playing games on your computer. That doesn't necessarily
| mean you will make any meaningful connections.
|
| This. I have been learning Argentine Tango for over 10
| years. Going from the "dancing together in close embrace"
| to "let's meet later for coffee" is still has difficult as
| ever. More so with tango: the phrase "why buy the cow when
| you get the milk for free" comes to mind, often. Note that
| I've made some very good friends through the dance, but
| it's tough getting out of the friend zone.
| scotty79 wrote:
| That said, dancing is super hard. It just doesn't click with
| some brains. Like at all. With mine for example. I can't
| repeat full body movements. I can't remember sequences of
| those movements even as short as 3. Any diagrams that
| attmempt to teach dancing make no sense to me. Foot placement
| seems completely arbitrary. I always had a very hard time
| learning things I don't understand and I'm not sure if I ever
| actually learnt any. I see no connection between dancing and
| music. Regardless of the professional level of dancers when I
| look at them dancing I recognize no connection between what I
| hear and what they do. Like those two things are at
| completely separate layers without any meaningful sync
| between them.
|
| And that's all before even considering things like social
| anxiety or being a highly sensitive person which makes
| various stimuli including social ones so strong that they
| become unpleasant.
|
| The closest I ever was and probably I'll ever be to drawing
| any pleasure from dance like activity is Light Saber.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| ...in mice
| moi2388 wrote:
| That would be igNobel worthy
| polishdude20 wrote:
| Anecdotal bur my ex's grandmother would do swing dancing as a
| hobby with her husband and later when they retired at like 50,
| they would swing dance like 3-5 times a week at home. Her
| grandmother is now 102 years old and up until recently was the
| sharpest, and wittiest resident at her care home despite being
| the oldest. Her hearing is great, her eyesight is great. The only
| things going slowly are her short term memory and ability to walk
| but she still does with her walker.
| dunham wrote:
| My grandmother kept a flower garden, it got smaller as she got
| older, but she made it to 113. Maybe the gardening helped keep
| her going.
|
| She was in a home for the last year (maybe two), lived on her
| own before that. She was sharp, but her hearing was poor.
| changing1999 wrote:
| I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical
| exercise that contain an element of continuous learning.
| Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the
| argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and
| how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively
| challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| That's really interesting, bjj is essentially physical problem
| solving with dire consequences
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| I think if your exercise involves you regularly getting choked
| out you probably shouldn't be expecting neurological benefits
| changing1999 wrote:
| No one is getting regularly choked out in BJJ. You always
| tap. The goal is not to injure your partner but to learn
| together. Source: 5 years of BJJ, I have never been choked
| out, I am not an idiot.
| gregors wrote:
| The only reason you'd ever get choked out in BJJ is because
| you lost the fight with your own ego.
| changing1999 wrote:
| That's a good way to put it. I trained in many gyms
| across two continents and never saw anyone getting
| chocked out in class.
| WalterBright wrote:
| With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less
| so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".
| changing1999 wrote:
| Not sure if you have experienced martial arts. It's constant
| learning. Sparring is a small part of the process. See kata
| in karate, hundreds of moves and transitions in BJJ, etc
| vunderba wrote:
| 100% agree. Not to mention that the goal of a dance partner
| isn't _usually_ to surprise you, whereas in most forms of
| sparring, you are constantly trying to anticipate your
| opponent and adapt to them.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Anticipating and adapting is how lead-follow dances work,
| especially when your partner is not your usual partner.
| The follower anticipates and adapts to the leader, the
| leader anticipates and adapts to the follower's skill and
| knowledge level. A good lead will make the follower look
| good and feel good. A leader is also responsible for
| collision avoidance with other couples, and enables the
| follower to have confidence in moving backwards.
|
| Think of it this way. It requires enough of your brain
| that you cannot carry on a conversation at the same time.
| If you're out jogging, you can have a conversation.
| kelnos wrote:
| I generally agree with you, but GP and above were talking
| about martial arts, not jogging. I expect there's likely
| not much conversation going on between sparring partners,
| either.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The post I responded to did not mention martial arts.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| I'm confused. All of the posts you replied to in this
| chain mentioned martial arts -- maybe you didn't
| understand that sparring is part of the practice of
| martial arts?
| WalterBright wrote:
| I interpret sparring is something boxers do. I never
| thought of it as a martial art.
| WalterBright wrote:
| No, I'm not familiar with martial arts. I didn't consider
| it an exercise routine.
| foobar1962 wrote:
| Wax on, wax off?
| gosub100 wrote:
| So those square dancers are constantly coming up with new
| material? Ballroom innovators are patenting never before seen
| ways to articulate the human body? Sure.
| WalterBright wrote:
| There are many, many styles of ballroom dancing. You're
| never going to run out of things to learn.
| harimau777 wrote:
| With most martial arts you are constantly learning new
| material comparable to dance (that's to say nothing of
| martial arts like Capoeira and Silat which incorporate dance
| into their training).
|
| It is also quite common for martial artists to add new skills
| that cover different aspects of combat. E.g. once karate-ka
| have a solid foundation in unarmed combat they often learn to
| use weapons. Practitioners of striking oriented martial arts
| commonly cross train in grappling or throwing oriented arts.
| Practitioners of Northern Kung Fu (generally focused on long
| range) might train in Southern Kung Fu (generally focused on
| short range). Many martial artists also incorporate
| supplemental practices such as meditation, qigong, or hojo
| undo.
| buescher wrote:
| Good martial arts instructors are very experienced at working
| with unathletic beginners who have never had much coaching
| before. "No, the other left." Probably easier to find a class
| at level as a total beginner where you're still expected to
| make a lot of progress than some other things.
| suzzer99 wrote:
| Peter Attia had a guest on his podcast who said something along
| these lines. He was really into training people to do Olympic
| lifting because of the cognitive component that goes along with
| the exercise. He also said hiking is good because the terrain
| is inconsistent, and you have to think about each step to some
| degree.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Probably some styles of martial arts would (do imho) work well
| then. Disclaimer ; did not RTFA.
|
| Edit: +styles of
| klyrs wrote:
| Depends on the martial art: head injuries would complicate that
| analysis; tai chi isn't terribly aerobic, etc.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Yes, added styles there. Kata's can be quite dance-y
| depending on the style.
|
| Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life,
| I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be
| 'arts'. Martial, sure.
| andoando wrote:
| Boxing is more dance than katas
| klyrs wrote:
| Boxing is ballroom dance; katas are choreography.
| fransje26 wrote:
| > Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his
| life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles'
| now to be 'arts'.
|
| Which ones would you consider to be "arts", and worth
| getting into?
|
| I was recently thinking that I would like to get back into
| martial arts, but having done taekwondo in the past, I'm
| absolutely not interested in going back to any form of
| bashing impact..
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Chen style tai-chi.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I will try to do Aikido until I die. I started in the 80s
| with Kyokushin and I trained with top trainers; when I
| was young they wanted to move me to thai or kick boxing
| as I would, like numerous dutch guys did of the same
| school, kick the fuck out of the competition. Never had
| that interest. I like the movements and indeed the art
| behind it. Someone in this thread said boxing is like
| ballroom dancing; I really don't see that. Maybe it can
| be; but if you want to win, it's not dancing and the
| aspect of wanting 'to win' makes it not at all like
| dancing (or maybe I don't know this dance).
|
| Anyway; as a kid I did Judo and after that Kyokushinkai
| and Jiujitsu 3-4 hours a day for many years.
|
| I am 50 now and I can do things many 50 year olds cannot
| do, but the joy for me is that I feel like when I go to
| aikido class 3 times a week, it is an art and it doesn't
| feel like I have to ever stop doing it as I don't need
| (but can I guess) to bash in faces in a rings.
| fransje26 wrote:
| Thank you for your reply.
|
| I really wanted to try Aikido, and went as far as doing
| an introductory class at university. Everything was fine
| until the next morning when I couldn't bend my elbow
| anymore, with an over strain pain that lasted more than a
| week. I was quite in shape at the time, so I took it as a
| sign that maybe it wasn't for me. (Or at least not in
| that school..) And that stopped me in my tracks
| unfortunately.
|
| But I'll keep your feedback in the back of my head, and
| let's see what the future brings.
| andoando wrote:
| In an actual fight it may only look like dancing
| temporarily but look up a good shadow boxing video. In
| training its very much about footwork, moving
| rhythmically and gracefully.
|
| Im not a great boxer or anything but I used to do
| melbourne shuffle a lot and it definitely has the same
| vibe to me
| gcanyon wrote:
| Obligatory mention of the fact that the best exercise is the one
| you'll do, regardless of what it is. Dance might be better for
| your brain than cycling, but neither helps anything if you give
| up on them after a few months. So find the (best) exercise you'll
| actually keep up with, and keep up with that. Even if it's only
| walking a few blocks a day, that's better than nothing.
| bogtog wrote:
| I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance
| vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that
| activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main
| effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the
| brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted.
| However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference
| between the dance vs. exercise groups. This means that the study
| is overall off to a pretty bad start if their goal is to study
| dance vs. exercise differences...
|
| The brain data claims to show that the dance vs. exercise groups
| showed different levels of improvement in various regions.
| However, the brain effects are tiny and are probably just random
| noise (I'm referring to those red spots, which are very small and
| almost certainly don't reflect proper correction for multiple
| hypotheses given that the authors effectively tested 1000s or
| 10000s of different areas). The authors' claims about BDNF are
| supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions
| hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are
| rubbish.
|
| In general, my priors on "we can detect subtle changes in brain
| matter over a 6-week period" are also very low. Perhaps, a study
| with this sample size could show that activity of some kind
| influences the brain over such a short length, but I am extremely
| skeptical that this type of study could detect differences
| between dance vs. exercise effects.
| zophiana wrote:
| I agree that the sample size might be a bit small so it could
| be noise, but the study did went 6-month not 6-weeks.
|
| And there are findings like these
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| wdkrnls wrote:
| Or it could be a problem of seeking statistical detection of
| any difference whatsoever versus detecting a practically
| meaningful difference... a type III error (answering the
| wrong question).
| bogtog wrote:
| Thanks, that sounds more reasonable. I'm still generally
| bearish on this type of brain-volume-change work (and
| extremely so on any study trying to compare brain-volume
| effects between different groups), but I guess 6-months is a
| finer premise.
| westurner wrote:
| Cardiovascular exercise correlates with subsequent synthesis of
| endocannabinoids, which affect hippocampal neurogeneration and
| probably thereby neuroplasticity.
|
| From "Environment shapes emotional cognitive abilities more
| than genes" (2024)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40105068#40107602 :
|
| > _hippocampal plasticity and hippocampal neurogenesis also
| appear to be affected by dancing and omega-3,6 (which are
| transformed into endocannabinoids by the
| body):https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109698 _
|
| Also, isn't there selection bias to observational dance
| studies? If not in good general health, is a person likely to
| pursue regular dancing? Though, dance lifts mood and gets the
| cardiovascular system going.
|
| Dance involves spatial sense and proprioception and probably
| all of the senses.
| agumonkey wrote:
| My random opinion is that dance or dance like activities are a
| sweet spot between low intensity and high intensity exercise
| that involves a lot more balance, coordination and fluidity
| than most physical activities promoted for health overall
| (they're either too simple or too hard), these traits are (I
| believe) very important to your brain. Add the social aspect as
| an important bonus.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Yes, moving as one with your partner is a big part of it, and
| where much of the pleasure comes from.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Yeah I believe that our brains are extremely sensitive to
| shared experience, work, art, movement or else (singing in
| harmony would work too). It might even tap in primitive
| toddler brain phases.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Dance is very _Gemeinschaft_ : https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/Gemeinschaft_and_Gesellschaft
|
| > _singing in harmony would work too_
|
| I believe at least some Amish sing at very low BPM.
|
| Two possible interpretations: (a) they share the opinions
| of Baptists when it comes to dancing, so the BPM is
| deliberately so low as to be clearly undanceable, and (b)
| at normal BPM individual participants might just be
| staying in rhythm, low BPM requires close attentiveness
| to the whole to stay together.
| gradschoolfail wrote:
| Max Damien's Riverian monologue:
|
| >> _Gemeinsamkeit_ <<
|
| (usually translated to English as neither C nor S)
|
| (Also contrasted with _Gesangverein_ )
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| From reading HN, it sounds as if many (at least among the
| terminally online?) in the Old Country could stand to
| verbesser their _Vereinsleben_ *.
|
| When speaking with colleagues and friends still in the
| Old Country, depending upon whether I wish to shock (or
| not), I decide between saying I live (in a _Gemeinde_ )
| or in a _commune_.
|
| Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKIaS0lh-uo
|
| * that said, tinder is still incredibly popular here;
| kids these days!
|
| EDIT: one notes the legacy of the pike square in that one
| can still hear cries of "close ranks! close ranks!" in
| the village square -- but these days it's used to mean
| "scoot over a little on the party benches so the late
| arrivals can fit in":
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4eU3txvFI
| gradschoolfail wrote:
| To riff on the risque, I advertise
|
| [if forex, SPJ is allowed these days to be remembered for
| idealizing the shitting of pants..] the
| idea of experts' pants as a a commodity to die
| metaphorically for
|
| (With the caveat that some might enjoy seeing instead
| what the experts are hiding when the tide [of fashion]
| goes out)
|
| (& one can e.g. with this explain, with mauvaise foi,
| Hipour's smile)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Shirts are topologically indistinguishable from
| crotchless pants; do we have a metric here?
|
| https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-scaling-people-by-
| claire... goes into the differences between (in 1984
| terms) inner- and outer-party expertise (aka foxes and
| lions? psychopaths and clueless? morlocks and eloi?).
|
| Yeah, when you've already known since ever to discount
| the wandering ones, what're a few more transients* to
| ignore? :)
|
| Lagniappe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molniya_orbit
|
| [could a signifyin' fox pass for a lion? someday I need
| to track down RvRG, _Ich, Claudius, Kaiser und Gott_ ]
|
| * but if you can _control_ transients, mode switching is
| an excellent way to rummage around under the noise
| floorboards for signal. (somewhere there 's an XKCD about
| limitations of earth observation that was _way_ too
| optimistic, and already had been for however long we 'd
| had structured shutters)
| gradschoolfail wrote:
| Below the waterline? (Waistline if less charitable)
|
| Ah havent read this article yet but anticipating
| "insider" as a more distinguishing term than "experts"
| should cover their edge cases
|
| (Which secrets are shameful to share vs merely uh
| inconvenient, e.g. for waistline, depends on how you draw
| the party lines, some do it at type ii "zahlungsfaehig"
| vs "proleten" as nsdap apparently another eg, for
| waterline)
|
| [do you have a fictional character for each of sigfox &
| lion?]
|
| So, where is the line for YC?
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| My bad: I got the fox and lion analogy wrong.
|
| (NdBdM apparently said the prince ought to be able to be
| both fox and lion; like HKH had both Knecht and
| Designori? What about Tito?
|
| " _The lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the
| fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore
| be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten
| wolves._ "
|
| [not yet checked for context/translation])
|
| Sorry, I'd been too quick to assume it fit nicely in with
| our early tripartitions, based on some blogiating that
| I'm not finding in my verlauf at the moment. So I'd been
| imagining TCCAG (in Graves' telling), d-d-disguising
| himself as one of the clueless, in order to survive the
| machinations of the psychopaths that had killed off every
| other male in his family:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio-
| Claudian_family_tree#Sim...
|
| Found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulation_of_el
| ites#Governin... ; it must've been the Burnham connection
| that set me off on 1984 and then to Rao. Note that here
| the foxes and lions are distinct people; hence my
| confusion.
|
| EDIT: Pareto definitely thinks of foxes and lions as
| distinct, but he must've introduced them somewhat earlier
| than SS2178 (The Mind and Society/The General Form of
| Society/Force and Class-circulation): https://archive.org
| /details/ParetoTheMindAndSocietyVol4TheGe...
| uoaei wrote:
| There's thousands of years of human societal development,
| and millions of years for mammals. Hard to believe we'd
| learned nothing about promoting social cohesion during
| that time.
| pjerem wrote:
| Totally anecdotal and probably 99% placebo but I started
| rollerblading (which also require _a lot_ of balance and
| coordination) for the first time in my life, like, I take
| courses in a skatepark and never wore rollerblades before
| (I'm 33). After some weeks I'm totally perceiving "something"
| changed in my brain. It's like doing mental things is somehow
| easier.
|
| I also happen to microdose since a few months ago but the
| change I felt coincided exactly about when I felt my fear to
| fall disappeared, when I "got" the balancing.
|
| That's totally an anecdote and not science but this feeling
| of change in my brain was so strong that I perceived it.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'd put all our stories in the same bag as taxi drivers
| having brain areas very deeply developed.
|
| I'm not surprised by your story. After health issues, my
| brain was clogged most of the time, and anything involving
| balance, rotation, rapidly moving surroundings. I tried a
| lot of stuff to feel my brain working again, one of the
| most impactful was balancing on a wood beam and trying to
| pivot (not far from roller skates moves).
|
| Our brain respond very well to some primitive stimuli
| (visual, balance, geometry).
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| > The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of
| p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p >
| .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish.
|
| Also, I don't have the references handy, but I recall other
| studies showing that exercise-induced BDNF changes can be
| mediated by e.g. air pollution. So even if the difference there
| is real, it might be premature to attribute it specifically to
| the mode of training.
| tech_ken wrote:
| This is a good point, maybe the dance studio has a better air
| filtration system than the other exercise location
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Do more complex movements stimulate our neural pathways more
| than less complex movements?
| tech_ken wrote:
| > The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of
| p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p >
| .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish.
|
| Your other points I agree with but I actually think the BDNF
| result has some standing. I'm looking at Fig. 4 and just by an
| eyeball test there's clear difference in the distributions of
| the intra-individual BDNF increase. It's not like there's some
| miniscule variation in the means that they make significant
| with really small error bars, the actual effect size appears to
| be notable. Moreover there's clearly some effect on the width
| of the distributions which could support their ultimate
| conclusion (ex. even if the mean effect is the same, it's
| possible the population-wide ceiling on gains is higher for
| dance).
|
| Now with all that said this could definitely still be a
| multiple comparisons thing, I'm just a statistician with no
| background in neuro-stuff so possibly the BDNF thing is just a
| bad indicator here. Certainly the behavioral outcomes not
| showing an interaction difference isn't a great sign as you
| point out, but in my personal and unimportant opinion I would
| at least say this study would be good justification for a
| follow-up with a better design and bigger population.
| bogtog wrote:
| I know nearly nothing about BDNF specifically. Whether it
| should motivate a follow-up is mostly only something known to
| the authors, as a p = .046 suggests a chance they may have
| tested numerous outcome variables and reported only one
| (e.g,. this could very well be 1/10). The fact that the
| p-value is almost comically close to p = .05, makes me
| suspect that this happened. Perhaps, if this goes in line
| with other BDNF research, then that could motivate it some
| further work.
|
| Notably, even if we take this p = .046 as a given, and assume
| there was no p-hacking, then this type of result implies that
| statistical power is tiny, and a proper "bigger population"
| study would likely have to be several hundreds of people.
| Even a study with 50% power, should have a majority of
| significant results land p < .01.
| tech_ken wrote:
| > assume there was no p-hacking
|
| Agree that this is definitely an assumption one needs to
| make, could easily be that BDNF was one variable among many
| unreported ones, and this case would be consistent with the
| other outcome variables in the paper so seems plausible.
|
| > this type of result implies that statistical power is
| tiny,
|
| Yes, definitely, BUT the effect in question is an
| interaction effect so yeah, power's just going to be small
| from the nature of the design. I was definitely thinking
| that you'd be looking at a follow up study of the size of
| multiple hundreds to confirm something like this. I'm
| realizing that thinking this is a trivial follow-up is is
| the difference between someone actually might work on real
| experiments and someone who just works with the numbers.
|
| Just want to re-emphasize though that the thing which makes
| me give this result (some) credence (assuming it's not a
| desk drawer p-hack) is just the distributions of the
| observation variable for the two treatment groups. Like
| even if the means of the BDNF increase are equal between
| the two arms of the trial, and this p-value is a false pos
| (which as you say, seems very possible), there's still
| clearly some other differences between the groups. I
| strongly suspect a quantile regression on the p50 or p75,
| rather than an ANOVA on the means, would show a 'more
| significant' effect; heck even just a log-linear model or
| something seems like it would be an improvement since
| there's clearly some skew in the 'Dance' population.
| jon_richards wrote:
| See also the dead salmon study
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/scicurious-brain/ign...
| hunter-gatherer wrote:
| > "The original poster almost didn't make it to a conference,
| but when it did, it made a major splash"
|
| Best pun ever.
| yellow_postit wrote:
| Replicability was my first thought as well. These papers make
| great headlines but how much shaky pyramids of conclusions are
| built on non-reproducible conclusions?
| kukkeliskuu wrote:
| I have done lots of free-form couples dancing (over 20 years,
| several times per week, some of it in complex styles like
| argentine tango) and in my first-hand experience the major
| difference from other kinds of exercise is that you need to
| harmonize your movements with your partner and music, and you
| need to improvise. The complexity of the movement is not it,
| nor the "exercise".
|
| There is lots of other research suggesting that couples dancing
| is more beneficial to the mental health and memory than other
| kinds of exercise.
|
| That said (and having no background in an very little knowledge
| of MRI research), I am also skeptical like you that there would
| appear such clear visible signs so soon in the brain images.
| johtso wrote:
| I also wonder if even just the close physical contact itself
| has a positive impact on brain chemistry.
| Notatheist wrote:
| I'm a professional dancer and music and freestyle are the
| most demanding aspects of dance by far.
|
| That said I'm also skeptical. Music and dance are being
| compared to "bicycle ergometers" and "training with equipment
| such as barbells and rubber bands". I'm pretty sure only one
| of these groups was having any fun. Unless the dance group
| were forced to social dance bachata in which case the misery
| probably evens out.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| You might be surprised at how many people enjoy the feeling
| of grinding out improvement in the gym. In my experience it
| can be a lot more fun than dancing for certain personality
| types (mine included)
| mtalantikite wrote:
| And for the exercise only group: > We avoided combined arm
| and leg movements in order to keep coordinative demands low
|
| I'm skeptical too. You have one group that is doing
| something that takes full body coordination, with lots of
| different inputs and improvisation, versus something they
| attempted to minimize those aspects of. Not to mention the
| social parts of dancing with others.
|
| But also hey, social dancing bachata is fun! If you're ever
| in NYC a good friend of mine teaches it at Pearl dance
| studio.
| aswegs8 wrote:
| I lack the in-depth knowledge but correcting p-value thresholds
| for multiple hypotheses is very basic science. I doubt your
| criticism is valid given that some basic error like this would
| never pass peer review.
| bogtog wrote:
| Correcting for p-values in brain imaging research is kinda
| elaborate, since you are essentially performing a t-test
| separately for each brain voxel. A brain image like the
| authors' will have about a million voxels (0.7 x 0.7 x 0.7 mm
| voxels). For multiple hypothesis correction, correcting for 1
| million tests would be overly strict because neighboring
| voxels are highly correlated with one another, and it's
| unlikely for brain effects to really be confined to such a
| small area. Hence, researchers usually define a primary
| threshold for voxels (here p < .001 uncorrected), and then
| look for patches of many p < .001 voxels together. Here, the
| authors stated that they looked for patches of at least 50
| contiguous voxels. The authors are just using some loose old-
| timey heuristic without justification or citation. These have
| been getting phased out mostly in the past decade. These
| types of heuristics don't actually test to establish that
| these thresholds won't yield tons of false positives (one of
| the best ways to do this is to basically randomly shuffle
| your data and see what are the actual cluster sizes generated
| by chance).
|
| > some basic error like this would never pass peer review
|
| It indeed shouldn't pass peer review! Yet, here we are. I
| think standards have gotten better since the paper's
| publication (2018), but there are no doubt there are still
| many reviewers who don't have a good intuition about what a
| significant cluster size should be. Off the top of my head, I
| can't give an exact number on the cluster size needed, but
| I'd be willing to bet a ton that what the authors used is not
| enough.
| bbstats wrote:
| I think all the things that dance brings to the table over the
| mean "exercise" are clear first-principles wins (using your
| whole body, listening and dancing in rhythm, listening to
| music, letting yourself go / being silly)
| maxwell wrote:
| https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz
| rqtwteye wrote:
| I think that's why I prefer exercise with some level of freedom.
| Free weights feel more engaging than machines. A fast hike up a
| mountain feels better than running on a treadmill indoors.
| djmips wrote:
| My hope is that DDR is a form of dance training.
| chaostheory wrote:
| I found the Les Mill's XR Dance to be a great workout app in VR.
|
| https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478
|
| The research results aren't surprising since dance is more
| complicated than something like HIIT. Martial arts training would
| likely have a similar effect unless sparring involved lots of
| hits to the head.
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| One dancer-and-programmer friend of mine invented the below
| thinking, after i introduced him into the "relation is an object"
| paradigm in software..: When movement becomes
| dance? Dance is the "relation" between movement and
| meaning. The key is whether someone can put it / sense it .
| someone = a dancer or the-other-kind-of-dancer-called-spectator
| meaning = very-very abstract. Like, even concentration can be
| meaning
| ericmcer wrote:
| I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that
| training more complex motions would trigger greater brain
| improvements.
|
| Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill
| activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise
| bike.
| macintux wrote:
| Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult,
| only to discover it was for people who were already experienced
| dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than
| exercise.
|
| Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through
| a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be
| able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were
| doing _while_ we were doing it, there was no way I could
| reproduce it.
| eep_social wrote:
| I think gp's point was that "exercise" encompasses a range
| from stationary bike to olympic lifts. Dancing is on the same
| end of that range as olympic lifting or a sport like
| basketball insofar as they all require intentional practice.
| WalterBright wrote:
| What works is to go through the steps very slowly. As it
| moves into muscle memory, you can speed it up.
|
| Dance training is a whole body thing. There's steps, ankle
| position, foot turnout, posture, what to do with your arms,
| what to do with your fingers, where your eyes are looking,
| and on and on.
|
| The very first thing, though, is getting the steps into your
| muscle memory. Then one by one, you start layering on the
| rest.
| alaithea wrote:
| I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer
| number of steps you need to remember. Other dance
| disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller
| movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those
| sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The
| way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain
| science about chunking objects in memory for better recall.
| But tap has few of those chunked sequences, other than the
| "time step," so you're left trying to parse long strings of
| very finite instructions. "Left ball right heel left flap
| ball change..." Personally I found it overwhelming and didn't
| pursue tap into the most advanced levels for that reason.
|
| Aside: it seemed like neurotypical folks struggled less with
| tap than I did as an AuDHD person, so tap may land
| differently with different neurotypes.
| astura wrote:
| People are different, I tap danced for years but I found
| ballet almost impossible to pick up for it's complexity and
| dumb poses.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| >chunking objects in memory for better recall //
|
| Can you share your source on this?
|
| Tangentially related wittering (I have flu, I'm a bit
| illucid rn): I do karate, I find sequenced moves to be a
| real mental struggle. But then I couldn't skip until I was
| a teenager. I blame/describe that as arrhythmia. I can't
| clap in time either.
| zeroxfe wrote:
| >>chunking objects in memory for better recall //
|
| > Can you share your source on this?
|
| I haven't seen the research on this, but it makes
| intuitive sense to me as a musician. It was the only way
| I could learn long complex pieces.
| LeonB wrote:
| The book "Peak" - and other works by that author detail
| studies related to this.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak:_Secrets_from_the_Ne
| w_S...
|
| > The book was written partly as a response to the
| misrepresented but increasingly commonplace idea of the
| "10,000-hour rule," popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in
| his 2008 book Outliers and which Gladwell had based on
| Ericsson's own research.
| Anthony-G wrote:
| Thanks for that reference. Having read _Outliers_ years
| ago, _Peak_ sounds like a useful follow-on and the
| concept of "deliberate practice" makes sense to me.
|
| I've been learning guitar over the past couple of years
| and I still struggle with many aspects (with good rhythm
| and timing being the most difficult). I'm mostly self-
| taught (justinguitar.com) but have recently started a
| music class to get feedback on my playing. My wife is
| also learning Mandarin and it sounds like the kind of
| book that she'd be interested in.
| alaithea wrote:
| Sure. There's a Wikipedia page on Chunking.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_(psychology)
|
| Arrhythmia and trouble doing sequenced moves... that's
| interesting. I can't quite make the connection but
| wouldn't be surprised if there is one. On the flip side,
| I've actually used rhythm to help me memorize things at
| times, e.g. saying multiplication tables like they're a
| poem or a chant. My kid just picked this up from me and
| started doing it on her own and it seemed to accelerate
| her learning.
| kmoser wrote:
| Have you tried verbalizing as an aid to learning
| sequenced moves?
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I have experience with a few types of dance including salsa
| and bachata, and also compete as a strength athlete- and find
| some of the more complex weight lifting moves- such as the
| push jerk- a lot harder and more technical than anything I've
| learned dancing. If every aspect of your timing and form
| aren't perfect, it simply does not work at heavier weights,
| and can take years of constant practice to perfect. The extra
| burden of having to output 100 percent effort while trying to
| do everything else perfect is very mentally demanding.
| justsee wrote:
| Beyond fundamental moves in any partner dance style, the
| complexity increases significantly.
|
| It's not just your coordination and flexibility in placing
| legs, feet, arms, hands, torso in various positions at the
| right time, it's also leading your follower, adapting to
| their own abilities, tension, movement, mobility, and mood,
| connecting with them energetically, with the music, with
| the floor, and practicing dance floor awareness to avoid
| collisions with other dancers, adapt your moves to a
| rapidly shifting available dance space, and being creative
| and spontaneous.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I imagine, being an art form, there is almost limitless
| possibility for complexity and difficulty in dance.
| However, I would argue the same is also true for strength
| sports, which ultimately are a type of martial art. I
| don't think one is categorically simpler than the other-
| they both offer people of any skill and ability level
| lifelong challenges. My point was not to claim dance was
| easy but that "exercise" is not always something simple
| and mindless that once learned you just tune out and let
| your body do. Personally, I can't stick with something
| boring- having ADHD, exercise is only possible for me if
| it is also fully mentally engaging.
| djtango wrote:
| I'd argue dance has a higher skill floor but both have a
| high skill ceiling.
|
| With dance you need minimum 4 limb coordination (its more
| than this) to get started. You need rhythm and you need
| to memorize choreo.
|
| At low weights lifting is pretty straightforward even for
| Olympic lifts. But your form only gets found out as you
| increase load and there's high risk of injury, and as you
| say you need a high focus.
|
| As someone said - you chose the exception to the rule and
| the average person needs to use exercise machines because
| they lack the body awareness to even attempt strength
| sports.
|
| That said the technical timing to strength sports is
| different to rhythm in dance/music. They both take focus
| but I think the brain is engaged differently. Especially
| as lifting is usually one movement and the movement is
| performed in a short burst. Whereas dance is a long
| sequence and usually a very different energy profile
| which is important. I do a lot of stuff but I recommend
| dance to people (as someone who doesn't really dance
| myself) because it forces you to relax in a way a lot of
| other exercise forms don't
| kelnos wrote:
| I think that's the exception that proves the rule, though,
| no?
|
| The majority of strength and cardio exercises are fairly
| simple to learn. Getting your form 100% correct is
| certainly more work, but generally not much.
|
| Basic partner dancing can certainly seem fairly simple, but
| you very quickly move out of that and into the realm of
| most things being complicated. And even with the basics, if
| you actually focus on the technique, it's already a lot
| more complicated than most workout exercises.
|
| I do expect that some forms of martial arts could be
| comparable (or perhaps even higher) in complexity to
| partner dance, though. But I'm not sure if I'd consider
| martial arts to be exercise as much as it's a sport or
| hobby.
|
| (Source: former competitive ballroom and latin dancer.)
| joncrocks wrote:
| At lower weights, it's easy to 'have good form'. The
| muscles can easily compensate for each other and one
| doesn't have to think too much about which muscles to
| contract/focus on.
|
| As the weight increases, it requires more focus to ensure
| that you are keeping your form and positioning and even
| just to engage your muscles `in the right way`. Form
| becomes more important/a pre-requisite in a way that
| ramps up as the weight increases as mistakes become
| harder to correct on-the-fly. The tolerances decrease and
| so the technique becomes more important.
| snapcaster wrote:
| Yeah, still way way easier than even basic dancing though
| kukkeliskuu wrote:
| I have 20 years experience in dancing couples dances, with
| lots of private classes on technique in some styles, as
| well three years in weight training with several times per
| week with a PT who specialized in and taught me weight
| training technique. (I am not very muscular, though, so I
| am not saying this to brag, just to give you some idea of
| my background).
|
| I have had a really bad body coordination, so I have had to
| learn everything the hard way. So I know A LOT of theory --
| and over time, I have learned to coordinate my body much
| better. But some kinesthetic people are still naturals and
| move better than I do.
|
| I agree with you that the major difference between dancing
| and other sports is probably not in the complexity of the
| movement. I think that the biggest difference is in
| improvisation and need to harmonize movement with your
| partner and music.
|
| I also agree with you that there is almost no limit in
| either field on how detailed you can be in your body
| movements.
|
| But even within weight training there appear to be various
| approaches, based on different goals. In my training, I
| almost never used 100 percent effort. Rather, the muscles
| were constantly stimulated with similar but different
| movements, all the time varying the stimulus. The muscles
| grow in rest.
|
| It is very similar to how I have learned to dance. On the
| social dance floor, there are always limitations (such as
| other couples, tables, walls, music etc.) that come up.
| When you are improvising, you need to adjust your movements
| constantly (varying step length, direction, the movement
| you are doing etc.). And over time, you have experienced
| everything that can happen, and your body has learned to
| react to it, so "you" (i.e. your analytical mind) can relax
| and let the body move.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I don't use 100 percent effort when actually training-
| only during competition. Mostly because the risk of
| injury, equipment required, and safety preparations for
| 100 percent effort are substantial- and the recovery time
| afterwards takes a week or more.
|
| That said, when I was a beginner I used "100 percent
| effort" a lot- because as a beginner my 100 percent
| effort was probably only really about 70 percent, I
| lacked the mental ability and pain tolerance for true 100
| percent effort.
| viraptor wrote:
| You got thrown into a class above your skill level. That's
| bad on the teacher for not telling you really. Once you know
| the basics the rest is easier to build on top of that, but
| otherwise it's like trying to tell someone about design
| patterns while they're still struggling with syntax in
| programming.
|
| If you liked the idea, give it a go with beginners again.
| You'll get back to that higher level soon anyway.
| j45 wrote:
| Another factor also seems to be how learning differs between
| adult brains, and non-adult brains.
|
| A child's brain isn't finished forming till about age 25-26,
| when the prefrontal cortex finally matures, from my
| understanding. [1][2]
|
| Once Adult brain is in the drivers seat, learning isn't how
| it used to be in school. That can be better and worse.
| Generally, for adults, it can be more useful to try to start
| from where they are and learn one step outward from there.
|
| Adults having to learn something new can.. sometimes by
| different means. A dance instructor friend mentioned they
| could make two left feet better (not perfect) by teaching
| them to practice the micro movements, one at a time,
| sometimes for hundreds of reps, and then putting them
| together slowly.[3][4]
|
| Anecdotal again, but when I tried learning a move the same
| way, it wasn't as hard learning it a bit at a time vs just
| throwing myself into it.
|
| We know muscle memory is a thing for using tools like Vim and
| keyboard shortcuts, so I don't think it's out of the realm of
| possibility.[5][6]
|
| References:
|
| [1] Development Period of Prefrontal Cortex "Prefrontal
| cortex matures around age 25."
| https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/70083
|
| [2] Development of the Prefrontal Cortex "Prefrontal cortex
| development extends into adulthood."
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41583-019-0149-4
|
| [3] Neuroplasticity Subserving Motor Skill Learning "Motor
| skill learning involves neuroplasticity."
| https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(11)00903-9
|
| [4] Motor Learning and Plasticity "Practice leads to changes
| in motor cortex organization."
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921001/
|
| [5] Experience-Dependent Structural Plasticity in the Adult
| Human Brain "Adult brain changes structurally with new
| experiences."
| https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/15/4/458/312872
|
| [6] Micro-learning in the Age of Neuroscience https://www.fro
| ntiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.6401... "Micro-
| learning enhances retention and mastery."
| sitkack wrote:
| Try taking modern dance. They have the huge choreography that
| you need to memorize, with like 19 degrees of freedom and
| then 40 minutes through the class the instructor says, "flip
| it over" and you need to perform the mirror image of all
| those movements. You can't handle the chirality!
| alaithea wrote:
| Truth. Sometimes the modern dance movements don't even have
| names; it's a wiggle in this direction or that, so you're
| using either photo- or kinesthetic memory to mimic and
| remember if you're able.
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| I teach Karate to kids and many of the forms require some
| amount of coordination and quick movement. A little thinking
| ahead and awareness of where your own limbs are (I think it's
| called proprioception). I've been doing this for a long time
| and can make reasonable accurate judgments about my physical
| abilities (how far I can jump etc.). But it's a skill that's
| quite demanding for new learners and that became quite
| apparent to me when I started teaching. I think it would be
| similar learning dancing (especially complex moves).
|
| For forms, we had to practice it till it became muscle memory
| and then it would automatically come up when we needed it and
| influence our moves even outside of the forms. I can relate
| to your experience about not understanding. However, the
| knowledge is additive and if you start small and keep
| practicing, you develop a skill to understand the
| forms/patterns at a larger level with some kinds of cues and
| it's vastly easier to remember and perform. THis also
| requires a teacher who can ease you into the complex stuff
| without dumping it all on you.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| In fact dance based exercise like Zumba, or boxing even, is
| very helpful with folks suffering Parkinson's because it
| require multiple tasks be processed at once - rhythm, hand,
| foot, observation of the lead. This induces plasticity which is
| crucial in staving Parkinson's decline. So I find it strange to
| assert exercise alone is the beneficial component as it's clear
| in pathological situations where increasing plasticity yields
| slower declines dance and complex exercise that requires many
| integrated tasks is superior to simple exercise.
| vunderba wrote:
| I was thinking the same thing too. I mean shocker: high cardio
| + spatial awareness > high cardio alone.
|
| For your money, you can't beat games like Pump It Up for a
| combination of HIIT (High Intensity Interval training) and the
| additional cognitive load that comes from the choreography of
| your steps and rhythmic timing.
| bsder wrote:
| It could also be the _social_ aspect of dance. Dancing requires
| interacting with people that general exercise does not.
|
| Social interaction has been shown over and over and over to
| have a beneficial effect on people.
| dangom wrote:
| Depends on what you mean by "improvements". Is it coordination?
| Is it sustained increased blood flow? I would imagine that
| different bike exercise regimens could induce more variation in
| fitness than the comparison dance vs exercise alone.
| kelnos wrote:
| Sure, it sounds like it would make sense, but that's not
| necessarily how the brain actually works.
|
| This study doesn't really seem to prove or even suggest
| anything either way, assuming GP's evaluation of their
| methodology is correct.
|
| "Armchair neuroscientist" is not a game anyone can play well.
| (I say this because I know several actual neuroscientists, and
| they are constantly telling me about ways the brain works that
| are very counterintuitive.)
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| Out of curiousity do you have any examples of some of the
| ways?
| blueyes wrote:
| Dance requires balance and often involves social interaction,
| while lots of physical exercise does not. Balance and more
| precisely imbalance is a good way to stimulate adrenaline in the
| brain, which can accelerate learning. Claude Shannon, fwiw, loved
| unicycles.
| ziofill wrote:
| I don't find this hard to believe. I'm no brain scientist, but
| dance puts together several senses and proprioception: music,
| rhythm, one's position in 3D space, balance, _and_ physical
| exercise...
| pandemic_region wrote:
| .... in the elderly.
| alunchbox wrote:
| A book I read 'spark' by John J Ratey, discussed this in a few
| chapters. Cardio/Running at 70% maximum heart rate lead to brain
| plasticity and even allowing new synapses to make connections and
| grow. However, he did argue an exercise that also required
| concentration e.g dancing, basketball, skateboarding would have
| better results.
|
| It's absolutely crazy, that we misunderstand how our brains are
| intended to work in the old world. Our brains are for movement,
| the ability to think, plan and utilize tools appears to have been
| a happy accident that allowed our ancestor an advantage in
| survival.
|
| brains be braining.
| agumonkey wrote:
| sophisticated coordination and balance are the most effectful
| brain stimulation i know, it also makes you develop a different
| understanding of space and time which makes you calmer (larger
| planning abilities maybe ?)
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| I like trail running. It combines cardio with balance and
| problem solving (where do you place your feet, dodging
| obstacles, recovering from stumbles, very dynamic compared to
| running on a road or treadmill).
|
| I strongly believe that trail running is much less prone to
| cause repetitive stress injuries, I see so many people pound
| thousands of kilometres on pavement and then wonder why their
| knees give out at 45.
|
| On the other side I know people getting injured when trail
| running, but it always seems to be acute (like scraping a knee
| or spraining an ankle) and they are back at it within a week or
| two.
|
| Finally, at a pseudoscience level I believe that we as humans
| evolved to run over uneven semi-soft ground and therefore trail
| running is one of the most natural movements.
| tgv wrote:
| One should really not draw conclusions based on this.
|
| * It's a (small) group of 63-80 year olds.
|
| * There's no evidence for increased neuro-plasticity. How could
| there be? There's only an dubious effect on BDNF plasma and "BDNF
| may be a possible mediating factor of adult neuroplasticity".
|
| * The groups start out with a difference, but by misapplying
| statistics, they conclude there's no difference.
| laristine wrote:
| For a research article, modifiers may be more important in
| imposing constraints and necessary insights in cause and effect.
| The full title of this article is "Dance training is superior to
| _repetitive_ physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity _in
| the elderly_ ".
|
| While the current title on HN is "Dance training superior to
| physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity".
| lukas099 wrote:
| Yes, came here to say that the HN title is misleading.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| On the same note, has anyone joined any dance classes alone? What
| did you join? How was it going alone? Did you make friends? Do
| you still do it?
| momojo wrote:
| Can I ask how old you are? How many of your friends are
| interested in dance? Are you interested because others are
| going or does it stem from an intrinsic desire?
|
| Many of my friends (late 20's, early 30s) wouldn't dream of
| being the first on a dance floor, or trying a class. I think
| most would rather shoot hoops or go hiking. Dance doesn't even
| occur to them as an option.
|
| My personal theory is that there's a stigma. Social dancing is
| what old people do. (Although I don't want to discount the
| k-pop dance scene I witnessed in college. That had a more
| performative aspect to it though, like marching band).
| polishdude20 wrote:
| I'm 31. None of my friends are interested. I mainly wanna try
| swing dancing because I saw a video of a competition and it
| looked like so much fun. It's really cool seeing people be
| able to command their body confidently and I see that and
| think "I wanna do that".
| potatochup wrote:
| Just do it! Most venues have a beginner class that is
| specifically designed for people who have never danced
| (there will likely be others in the same boat as you). I
| started a few years ago, now I teach it and it's all I do
| in my spare time. It's also a great hobby because you can
| either go all in like me, or show up once a week for 1h and
| still have good time, meet people etc
|
| (based on your username), Poland has a great scene by the
| way.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| I will see if there's places near me! And I'm actually in
| Vancouver hehe.
| allenu wrote:
| I did about ten years ago and danced weekly for 5+ years (swing
| dancing). I joined classes alone and it went totally fine. You
| make friends in the class and if you go dancing regularly, you
| see the same people, so you start forming a community. Best of
| all, people who go to the dances are there to dance and not get
| drunk, so it's a great, safe way to meet other people who want
| to socialize, too.
|
| I stopped going regularly after a little over 5 years, mostly
| because I was plateauing in my dancing and getting bored with
| it. In my experience, you plateau multiple times, just as with
| any skill, but you find a way to get better and more creative,
| but at that point, my heart wasn't into improving anymore so I
| wasn't enjoying it as much. I definitely keep telling myself to
| get back into it, however, because it's such a great social
| outlet.
|
| I'll also add that it's a really great activity because it's
| physical, it's creative, and it's social. Partner dancing
| forces you to learn how to work with other people and
| communicate better. Not everyone you dance with has the same
| skill level and you might think you're doing well communicating
| (when you're leading) but after dancing with several people you
| find out right away where you're not doing a good job.
|
| I also did find that it made me more aware of my movements and
| improved my musicality. I got better at watching other people
| dance and seeing what movements they made and how they
| choreographed their "routines". That kind of tickled a
| different part of my brain I hadn't used before in any other
| activity. The "plateauing" I mentioned earlier forced me to get
| better at watching others and repeating what they did as well
| as seeing what I was doing and trying to change it up if it was
| getting stale.
| 3523582908 wrote:
| My own personal experience, but my 80 year old FIL changed a lot
| after he started going to dance classes. He was always in decent
| physical health, but prior to the classes he was a very stressed,
| unhappy, solitary type of person. Since then he's become much
| more extroverted, social, and generally happier.
|
| Obviously I think the benefits are more than just the dancing
| itself, such as the community, but even when you ask him directly
| about what he thinks caused the change he points to dance
| classes.
| veidelis wrote:
| I've heard that learning new types of motions helps to increase
| brain plasticity. I would assume it works best with some amount
| of cardio exercises.
| not5150 wrote:
| It would be interesting to see the results compared to martial
| arts, specifically martial arts which require you to perform
| kata/forms or a set of prearranged moves/strike. So it's
| basically like a dance, but something like block, punch, turn,
| kick low, kick high, spinning back kick, etc for 1-3 minutes.
|
| American Kenpo brown belt kata I'm looking at you!
| riedel wrote:
| I remember that going through a lot of media (actually back in
| 2015 already) in Germany. My parents in law (in their 80s) dance
| a lot and can assure it actually keeps them really fit. However,
| I never learned to dance and I wonder really if I can really
| learn it when I go to pension age..
|
| Previous discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732
| mikhmha wrote:
| A bit unrelated to the main topic but whenever I exceed a certain
| threshold of smoking cannabis (>0.3g) it seems to induce some
| automatic rhythmic movement in me. If there's music playing I can
| tune into the rhythm of the music. If there's no music, I will
| move around a lot while twisting my limbs, stretching my arms,
| holding positions and breathing, in various rhythmic and also
| strange ways. Some people have described it resembling a form of
| yoga or tai-chi. Whatever it is, it feels like a benefit? I've
| noticed my posture has improved and in the gym my numbers have
| also gone up despite 0 diet changes. Its like a full body stretch
| that activates all these minor muscles in my body.
|
| I don't know - whenever I think about quitting this "bad" habit,
| I remember that it would just be replaced by sitting around
| looking at my phone. Being put into this physical trance by a
| drug has to be infinitely more healthy than that right? I trade
| one addiction for another.
| dsclough wrote:
| THCs effects on proprioception are interesting enough to be
| worth pursuing if you have any interests in the physical realm.
| Dancing, climbing, lifting weights, running. Clearly one should
| be careful and I wish weed was still good for me but it's just
| anxiety city so I'll leave it to the folks who haven't ruined
| their brains to enjoy.
| pgt wrote:
| Dance is more social than solo physical exercise. Would make
| sense that it triggers more brain activity in different areas.
| tech_ken wrote:
| To anyone who knows: have their been similar comparison studies
| between non-exercise movement and exercise movement? Like cycling
| vs. learning the piano?
| yowayb wrote:
| Anecdotally, I've found that dancing feels good physically, but
| also connects you psychologically and culturally with others.
| More intense activity like CrossFit for example also builds
| connection, but I don't think you need to go that hard to reap
| physical benefits, especially as we age.
| ropable wrote:
| My personal assumption (unsupported by evidence) is that the
| social aspect of dance training might be as big of a factor in
| any supposed difference here. Dance classes are inherently more
| social group activities than many type of structured "physical
| exercise" (e.g. strength training in the gym, running, etc.)
| lamnguyenx wrote:
| I have the same question to playing the piano. By every piano
| playing (30-60 mins per day), can we enhance our brain capacity
| and delay the age of dementia?
| Nevermark wrote:
| For me, exercise with physical-mental integration, it's Beat
| Saber. But played with strict adherence to edged weapon form.
|
| I must only cut with the "sharp side" of my light saber, and
| cutting must take the form of contact then pulling back hard to
| slice (you don't push a blade through meat).
|
| Also, you can't stand there. The enemy is going to slice you, and
| avoid your attacks much more easily if you just stand in one
| place. So never stop moving, high, low, side to side, back &
| forth.
|
| Attack and cut from every angle. From over, from under, from
| every possible stance. Dance, motherflamingo, dance!
|
| All this with maximum speed & force.
|
| And no blade crossing. Duh!
|
| Now work your way up in difficulty. You learn to move like a
| samurai. You don't have a choice!
|
| I wish the game had settings that enforced these constraints,
| along with more complex target motion & rotation. And
| moving/rotating shielded target sides that reduced your attack
| options. But just imagining the constraints, just as it is, works
| fine.
|
| It also helps to have a large enough area where your VR
| boundaries are all but irrelevant. And no pauses between songs -
| one album at a time, straight out. You don't get a break in
| battle!
|
| One thing I have learned. If I ever had to fight in a real epic
| He Zhan (gah-sen), I would want my AirPods and tunes!
| snapcaster wrote:
| This sounds so awesome. Beat saber but actually sword fighting
| seems fun as hell. Surprised now this doesn't already exist
| binkethy wrote:
| What a weird human mistake to create such a false dichotomy.
| Don't tell me longboard surfers aren't dancers. Lessons
| schmessons, move your body and learn how to control its movements
| to better express yourself and better manipulate it with respect
| to its context, whether in water, suspended from a giant sash, or
| rolling on a wooden floor.
| omayomay wrote:
| This conclusion on "Dance" is to narrow i think. What about
| TaiChi/QiGong? Or martial arts? or yoga?
|
| Instead, maybe, the research might have focused for "exercises
| that requires high coordination and awareness of body is superior
| to weightlifting"
| wvh wrote:
| I'm an avid trail runner, which requires a lot of (quoting
| another poster) balance, coordination and fluidity. How would
| dance differ from that? My mostly uneducated guess is that moving
| in lots of different ways, having lots of social contact and
| ensuring variety in what you eat just exercises the brain and
| body and challenges them to stay at peak performance, in balance
| and not atrophy.
|
| Being a modern human being is about learning to fight comfort and
| energy conservation.
| game_the0ry wrote:
| Strange title -- isn't dance training a physical exercise?
| neves wrote:
| I really like the studies that Dancing is better for depression
| than antidepressants: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-
| style/dance-best-exercise...
| mythrwy wrote:
| Not surprised in the least if this is the case.
|
| I have no experience with this app/company but I understand there
| is some evidence for timing based exercises helping cognition.
|
| https://www.interactivemetronome.com/
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