[HN Gopher] NSO Should Lose Spyware Case for Discovery Violation...
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NSO Should Lose Spyware Case for Discovery Violations, Meta Says
Author : jmsflknr
Score : 53 points
Date : 2024-10-03 16:12 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.bloomberglaw.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.bloomberglaw.com)
| excalibur wrote:
| I want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the
| actual victims instead of Zuckerberg
| h4x0rr wrote:
| Lots of those victims are dead
| erikerikson wrote:
| By this logic, maybe we shouldn't charge murders because the
| murdered party is not around to see justice?
|
| Every victim has family or friends or things they cared about
| publicly (usually the public presence is the reason they
| became a victim).
|
| Justice can be found in many ways.
| gomerspiles wrote:
| We are seeing justice from the many ways. There aren't many
| people who appreciate waiting on justice in crimes that are
| ruining a lot to steal a little.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _want the option where NSO loses but the money goes to the
| actual victims instead of Zuckerberg_
|
| "Punishment has five recognized purposes: deterrence,
| incapacitation, rehabilitation, retribution, and restitution"
| [1].
|
| You're describing restitution. We're still on deterrence and
| incapacitation, _i.e._ fining NSO so it stays away from America
| and possibly putting it out of business so it can 't keep
| selling its wares.
|
| [1] https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-
| purpose...
| hypeatei wrote:
| Wait Meta is suing the NSO group in U.S. courts? I thought they
| were based in Israel and basically have protection from the
| Israeli government.
|
| > the court warned it would not feel reluctant to impose
| sanctions
|
| Ah okay so basically we're doing the ol' "going on your permanent
| record" treatment. That means nothing to a state sanctioned
| malware team.
| stepupmakeup wrote:
| It's always funny when <american government agency> announces
| "sanctions" on north korean, chinese, russian state sponsored
| hacking groups. What are you going to do, block them from using
| AWS?
| hypeatei wrote:
| Exactly, it just results in misguided measures like IP-range
| bans. Yeah, sure, that's going to stop a group dedicated to
| finding zero days and other technical flaws.
| mdhb wrote:
| There is often a sizeable non public component to some of
| these things that is firmly more in the gray zone.
|
| For example knowing that there are few legal options to deal
| with Russian groups who were doing ransomware attacks on
| hospitals there was recently a public name and shame campaign
| that lots of people had this exact kind of response to but
| the actual way they were looking to impose costs on these
| groups was by making sure that other crime groups in the
| country were very aware of who these people were, that they
| didn't have any meaningful protection but they did have a lot
| of crypto money that would be very easy to rob from them. The
| idea was to put them in harms way since as the theory goes it
| would cause others to think twice.
|
| Tactics differ obviously depending on the target and what
| options make sense but this was for a non state backed group
| who didn't have anything other than a cyber component to
| them.
| lesuorac wrote:
| Uh, arrest them when they show up in a country with an
| extradition treaty?
|
| Do you think relatively highly paid individuals don't take
| foreign vacations?
|
| > [1] That was true for the men released Thursday. Both were
| arrested on vacation in countries that cooperate with the
| U.S. Klyushin was arrested in Sion, Switzerland -- four
| people alleged to be co-conspirators remain at large -- and
| Seleznev in Maldives.
|
| [1]: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-releases-
| russian-ha...
| edm0nd wrote:
| I mean really the arrest warrants or sanctions are just
| feel good PR for the agencies issuing them to let the
| public they are "doing something". It's the only thing they
| can do. For example, they aint ever going to pop a North
| Korean threat actor bc they simply cant travel at will.
|
| They do pop Russians traveling outside of the CIS country
| region on vacation[1].
|
| >According to Europol, a suspected LockBit ransomware
| developer was arrested in August 2024 at the request of
| French authorities while on holiday outside of Russia.
|
| https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/police-
| arrest...
|
| One of my favorite quotes about these hackers in CIS is,
| "Who cares if you have hundreds of millions of dollars, you
| are still stuck in Russia or the CIS region for the rest of
| your life".
| jmwilson wrote:
| > they aint ever going to pop a North Korean threat actor
| bc they simply cant travel at will.
|
| True, but the USG has a long memory and holds grudges.
| Even if they never travel, they have to be confident
| _every_ future government of the country will have their
| back. What 's the odds the North Korean or Russian regime
| substantially changes in their lifetimes? Probably higher
| than the chance a future US administration will stop
| caring about an outstanding warrant.
| gomerspiles wrote:
| Maybe I deceive myself when I think its too early to know
| if the Marshall plan through Glasnost was the intelligent
| half of an eternal cycle.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Even if their country has their back, that protection
| racket can come at a cost.
|
| "So and so is looking to arrest you, it would really suck
| if you got deported or put on this 'vacation' to France,
| wouldn't it?"
|
| Worth paying up, but if you're willing to pay _anything_
| ...
| chatmasta wrote:
| What's CIS?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Commonwealth of Independent States - the former Soviet
| Union
| lupusreal wrote:
| Russians get got, but Israelis? I don't see the US
| government pulling many strings to get them.
|
| Malware companies have openly operated in Israel for
| decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley How
| many extraditions of those guys to America from anywhere
| have there ever been?
| quotz wrote:
| Israelis have impunity as you can see on TV these days
| lupusreal wrote:
| For everything from war crimes to child rape, Israel is a
| safe haven for criminals:
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-jewish-american-
| pedophiles-...
|
| And do you ever hear American politicians make a stink
| about it? Hell no, they're too busy bragging about how
| they love Israel much more than their opponent.
| salawat wrote:
| Did you miss the legislatiin requiring KYC programs for IaaS
| providers? Basically adds AWS and all othe American clouds to
| the bucket of companies having to surveil for people on OFAC.
|
| So yes. That's exactly what they'll do.
| aethros wrote:
| > I thought they were based in Israel and basically have
| protection from the Israeli government.
|
| NSO does business via various parent corps, subsidiaries, and
| other entities around the globe.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group#Overview
| tracker1 wrote:
| Not to mention the NSA/CIA and maybe even FBI are likely also
| customers.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the NSA /CIA and maybe even FBI are likely also customers_
|
| Probably not, given NSO has been blacklisted since 2021 [1].
|
| That doesn't mean they don't _use_ NSO 's products. But
| they're buying it secondhand or reverse engineering it. Same
| as we'd do for _e.g._ an Iranian drone innovation.
|
| [1] https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-blacklists-four-
| compan...
| tptacek wrote:
| You think NSA needs to go to NSO for exploits and implants?
| There's a whole market for this stuff, NSO is just one actor,
| and far from the best.
| nceqs3 wrote:
| The sanctions the court is talking about are monetary sanctions
| against the lawyers/defendants, not sanctions, as in the
| Treasury Department style of sanctions. Two different things.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _thought they were based in Israel and basically have
| protection from the Israeli government_
|
| They do [1]. That doesn't affect the supremacy of U.S. law.
|
| > _so basically we 're doing the ol' "going on your permanent
| record" treatment_
|
| Sanctions in law means punishment [2]. In civil law, "sanctions
| are usually monetary fines." But Meta may go further in seeking
| damages in equity, which could range from injunctions on NSO
| targeting Meta to distribution restrictions in the U.S.
|
| Note that NSO and its leadership are already blacklisted by
| Commerce [3]. This is the same designation we've put on _e.g._
| Russia and Belarus 's militaries [4].
|
| [1]
| https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/jul/25/israel-...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_(law)
|
| [3] https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-blacklists-four-
| compan...
|
| [4] https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-
| releases/2022/04/commerc...
| bastard_op wrote:
| I don't normally say this ever, but good for Meta. I'd love to
| see NSO banned from US business as a scourge, but...
|
| NSO, Cellbrite, all the good spyware/malware used by governments
| and connected rich come from Israel companies. The FBI, CIA, and
| local PD's certainly keep them on speed dial when they need into
| someone's phone for a legal matter like someone shooting at an
| orange on stage. Like Diddy said, can't stop, won't stop - cops
| still need an easy instahack button, and they provide them
| readily to the highest bidders.
|
| Lots of Israeli "Gartner-rated" "Enterprise Security" vendors
| like Checkpoint, Radware, Cato Networks, etc too. You wonder if
| they sell the sickness in one hand, and the cure in another.
| cedws wrote:
| NSO ban? It should be an Israel sanction. NSO Group has
| committed crimes against the people of the West and directly
| aided their enemies. The Israeli government is complicit in
| this.
| lupusreal wrote:
| Sanctions against Israel? It would be a miracle to even get a
| slight reduction to the money and weapons the American
| government gifts to them every year.
| alephnerd wrote:
| If you sanction Israel for Wassenar Agreement violations
| (which it never signed), then the US has to do the same to
| similar NATO and NATO+ allies like Singapore, the UAE, all of
| ASEAN, PRC, and a number of Wassenar Agreement members like
| Turkiye, India, and South Korea.
|
| This is why arms control agreements are basically useless.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _FBI, CIA, and local PD 's certainly keep them on speed dial_
|
| NSO was sanctioned by Commerce in 2021. A local PD doing
| business with them would be akin to doing business with a
| sanctioned Russian or Iranian entity.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Lots of Israeli "Gartner-rated" "Enterprise Security" vendors
| like Checkpoint, Radware, Cato Networks, etc too. You wonder if
| they sell the sickness in one hand, and the cure in another
|
| Not exactly.
|
| The Offensive Security companies like NSO Group are viewed as
| fairly scummy as well in Israel, but damn if they don't pay
| good. The kind of person who would become leadership at a NSO
| type company wouldn't become leadership at a Cato.
|
| Lots of Israelis dislike the culture at the offensive security
| companies which tends to skew very Wild West and toxic (eg.
| Taking out new hires to strip clubs and lounges), and these
| companies in turn largely exist in a legal grey area.
|
| The moment the company becomes a liability (eg. NSO Group), it
| loses political aircover fairly quickly
|
| Heck, Netenyahu's Likud lead an inquiry against NSO Group and
| it's founders in 2022 (though this was also because Bibi's
| confidants were allegedly tapped by the intelligence community
| in Israel by leveraging NSO [0]), though all this fell to the
| wayside after the Judical Reforms as well as the Oct 7th
| attacks.
|
| Also, Israel is a very small country where everyone is 2nd or
| 3rd degree connects with each other, so professional
| reputations spread very quickly.
|
| [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/top-israeli-
| cop-re...
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