[HN Gopher] Dance training superior to physical exercise in indu...
___________________________________________________________________
Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain
plasticity (2018)
Author : Tomte
Score : 195 points
Date : 2024-10-03 14:01 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (journals.plos.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (journals.plos.org)
| riffic wrote:
| embodied cognition is definitely an interesting concept to
| explore. I know I get really interesting thoughts when I go for a
| walk.
|
| https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/
| cdiamand wrote:
| "Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and
| spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged."
|
| So, the dance group showed increase volume of brain matter. Is
| there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it
| doesn't lead to improved cognition?
|
| Is it possible that increased volume just helped them become
| better dancers?
| aithrowawaycomm wrote:
| Musical cognition is loosely connected to attention (maybe
| disconnected entirely by this metric, music seems special) and
| spatial memory is irrelevant. So "better dancers" seems a bit
| myopic, they might be improving their understanding of rhythm
| and melody in a more general sense.
|
| (IMO the headline-level conclusion of this study is
| unsurprising - dancing is far more cognitively demanding than
| gym exercise!)
| yapyap wrote:
| > Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if
| it doesn't lead to improved cognition?
|
| ever seen megamind?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Cognition and memory are easily measurable brain functions but
| are not the exclusive function of the brain. As a conserving
| machine a healthy brain building volume is indicative of
| improvement in some function otherwise it wouldn't bother
| building the volume.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I got into dance a few years ago, and N=1 sure, but the big
| changes I observed as a result were improvements in
| proprioception, balance, sense of tempo, and I also gained the
| ability to deconstruct music in my head, and listen to
| different parts of it (e.g. only pay attention to the guitar or
| the drums or the vocals).
|
| Like does this make me better at programming? Probably not. But
| the skills you gain do have other usages outside of dance, and
| honestly also kind of enrich life in general.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Balance training (standing on a ball type thing) also is supposed
| to help ADHD.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Can you link anything on the subject? Sounds like a simple
| device you could own at home and spend 10m a day on balancing.
| vitaflo wrote:
| Really don't even need a device. I practice balancing on one
| leg with my eyes closed while brushing my teeth every morning
| (I've progressively made it harder over time). I mostly do
| this to keep up my balance skills for mountain biking and
| it's helped quite a bit, especially during winter when I ride
| less.
| username44 wrote:
| You mentioned progressively making it harder, I've seen the
| following strategies to make balancing more difficult.
| Combining them all can be challenging:
|
| 1. Arms crossed on your chest 2. Eyes closed 3. Swinging
| your head left and right, like an exaggerated "no"
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| on the opposite end of simple-or-cheap, e-foiling Does train
| your balance. esp. in windy "cabbage-salad" waves with
| medusas and rubbish floating around :/
| changing1999 wrote:
| This (intuitively) makes sense, since standing on a ball
| requires full focus, can't really get distracted.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active
| cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not
| falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little
| shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done
| automatically.
| changing1999 wrote:
| Not on a balancing ball. It's far far harder than staying
| upright on a bicycle. You have to stay focused and control
| several muscle groups. Not falling even for a minute is a
| very challenging task. Being able to balance for 10 minutes
| is basically elite level.
| idle_cycles wrote:
| "Fifty-two seniors (25 males; 27 females) aged 63-80 years were
| then randomly assigned to the experimental dance group (DG) and
| the control sport group (SG) controlling for age, MMSE status and
| physical fitness." I wonder if these findings remain true for
| young or middle aged adults.
| klyrs wrote:
| > For the present exploratory study, we designed an especially
| challenging dance program in which our elderly participants
| constantly had to learn novel and increasingly difficult
| choreographies. This six-month-long program was compared to
| conventional fitness training matched for intensity.
|
| The result seems bloody obvious to me as a dancer. Dance _is_
| exercise. And this wasn 't just dance, they were learning moves
| and choreography. Like, no duh, teaching people new and
| complicated things increases neuroplasticity! According to the
| quote there, the activities were matched in physical intensity
| and one treatment added a significant mental component versus
| the control.
|
| Compare dance to rowing, lifting, spinning etc. Those
| activities are regularly accomplished by a brainless motor.
| That such activities induce neuroplasticity is cool, but it's
| no shock that more enriching activities are better for the
| brain.
|
| I think it's obvious that a younger person's brain would be
| more improved by this class than your ordinary seniors
| athletics program. I'd be more inclined to compare with other
| low-impact competitive sport: badminton, table tennis, etc.
| Like dance, those require full-body coordination, planning,
| reflexes, etc.
| JamesBarney wrote:
| > Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger
| volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate
| cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only
| dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels.
| Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and
| spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged
| casual.
| noelwelsh wrote:
| I think the difference in outcomes is likely to be down to
| "continuous learning of new movement patterns and choreographies"
| vs "participants performed the same exercises repeatedly ... We
| avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep
| coordinative demands low".
|
| That said, I think dance is great.
| klyrs wrote:
| That said, dance is a really fun way to package repetitive
| movements. And if younger people did more of it, the men on
| this site would spend less time bitching about how hard it is
| to meet women. *cough*
| michaelteter wrote:
| Yes, you will "meet" more women by dancing than by playing
| games on your computer. That doesn't necessarily mean you
| will make any meaningful connections.
|
| Simply going places and interacting with people will also
| help you meet women. In fact, I think you'd sooner find a
| date by becoming a grocery store employee than a dancer,
| because you're more likely to be having conversations with
| the people you meet.
|
| Dancing, especially where you are learning, is not really
| socializing.
|
| The structure of our modern society really does make it more
| difficult to meet new people. Women complain too, not just
| men.
| klyrs wrote:
| If you want to meet people, there's a lot of skill and
| patience required, no matter the venue.
|
| Dancing is rather uniquely suited to meeting people.
| Dancing signals fitness and physical competency directly to
| the lizard brain. Of course, if you're bad at those things,
| you won't succeed in an environment of such honest
| signalling.
|
| And of course, if you go to a dance class and ask somebody
| out after the first session, that's desperation. If you're
| there _just_ to meet people, your dishonest intent will
| shine through. Note that I didn 't say young people should
| dance _just_ to meet people -- I said that they should be
| dancing more, and that meeting people is a _side effect_.
| Don 't be sleazy.
|
| The real trick to meeting people is that you can't _try_ to
| make people like you. You need to relax and be yourself. It
| takes time to establish mutual fit, and the moment that 's
| clear, you must act decisively. At that point, any effort
| you put towards that specific person will have a good
| chance of being received well. After you've been in and out
| of the arms of every other person in the room over the
| course of several months, you'll have much better
| perspective on how each feels about your presence. You
| won't flub it, you won't ask the wrong person, and your
| confidence will be well-earned.
| mlyle wrote:
| Not specific to dance here, but just replying to your
| general thesis:
|
| The "just be yourself" advice is so hard, because it's
| what actually works, but it's also difficult to do when
| you care about the outcome.
|
| And, of course, it has a prerequisite of a whole lot of
| work to make "yourself" into something worthwhile and
| interesting. Of course one would like a shortcut that
| still works if you've not done the prior coursework. ;)
| munificent wrote:
| I think I met the _majority_ of my dating partners
| including my wife on a dancefloor. (Well, technically I had
| met my wife before. But we reconnected at a club.)
|
| Dancing at nightclubs is great. Assuming you can find one
| whose crowd is your kind of people, it's one of the few
| remaining venues where people of all genders and
| orientations mix and it's considered socially acceptable to
| initiate a conversation with someone with romantic intent.
|
| The problem with being a grocery store employee to meet
| people is that there are a very logical taboo against
| hitting on employees that are obligated to interact with
| you. Likewise, employers generally don't want employees
| hitting on their customers. So, sure, you might be able to
| meet people this way, but you have to skirt some social
| norms to do so.
| kspacewalk2 wrote:
| ...in mice
| moi2388 wrote:
| That would be igNobel worthy
| polishdude20 wrote:
| Anecdotal bur my ex's grandmother would do swing dancing as a
| hobby with her husband and later when they retired at like 50,
| they would swing dance like 3-5 times a week at home. Her
| grandmother is now 102 years old and up until recently was the
| sharpest, and wittiest resident at her care home despite being
| the oldest. Her hearing is great, her eyesight is great. The only
| things going slowly are her short term memory and ability to walk
| but she still does with her walker.
| dunham wrote:
| My grandmother kept a flower garden, it got smaller as she got
| older, but she made it to 113. Maybe the gardening helped keep
| her going.
|
| She was in a home for the last year (maybe two), lived on her
| own before that. She was sharp, but her hearing was poor.
| changing1999 wrote:
| I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical
| exercise that contain an element of continuous learning.
| Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the
| argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and
| how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively
| challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| That's really interesting, bjj is essentially physical problem
| solving with dire consequences
| BaculumMeumEst wrote:
| I think if your exercise involves you regularly getting choked
| out you probably shouldn't be expecting neurological benefits
| changing1999 wrote:
| No one is getting regularly choked out in BJJ. You always
| tap. The goal is not to injure your partner but to learn
| together. Source: 5 years of BJJ, I have never been choked
| out, I am not an idiot.
| WalterBright wrote:
| With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less
| so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".
| changing1999 wrote:
| Not sure if you have experienced martial arts. It's constant
| learning. Sparring is a small part of the process. See kata
| in karate, hundreds of moves and transitions in BJJ, etc
| vunderba wrote:
| 100% agree. Not to mention that the goal of a dance partner
| isn't _usually_ to surprise you, whereas in most forms of
| sparring, you are constantly trying to anticipate your
| opponent and adapt to them.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Anticipating and adapting is how lead-follow dances work,
| especially when your partner is not your usual partner.
| The follower anticipates and adapts to the leader, the
| leader anticipates and adapts to the follower's skill and
| knowledge level. A good lead will make the follower look
| good and feel good. A leader is also responsible for
| collision avoidance with other couples, and enables the
| follower to have confidence in moving backwards.
|
| Think of it this way. It requires enough of your brain
| that you cannot carry on a conversation at the same time.
| If you're out jogging, you can have a conversation.
| WalterBright wrote:
| No, I'm not familiar with martial arts. I didn't consider
| it an exercise routine.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Probably some styles of martial arts would (do imho) work well
| then. Disclaimer ; did not RTFA.
|
| Edit: +styles of
| klyrs wrote:
| Depends on the martial art: head injuries would complicate that
| analysis; tai chi isn't terribly aerobic, etc.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Yes, added styles there. Kata's can be quite dance-y
| depending on the style.
|
| Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life,
| I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be
| 'arts'. Martial, sure.
| andoando wrote:
| Boxing is more dance than katas
| klyrs wrote:
| Boxing is ballroom dance; katas are choreography.
| fransje26 wrote:
| > Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his
| life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles'
| now to be 'arts'.
|
| Which ones would you consider to be "arts", and worth
| getting into?
|
| I was recently thinking that I would like to get back into
| martial arts, but having done taekwondo in the past, I'm
| absolutely not interested in going back to any form of
| bashing impact..
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Chen style tai-chi.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I will try to do Aikido until I die. I started in the 80s
| with Kyokushin and I trained with top trainers; when I
| was young they wanted to move me to thai or kick boxing
| as I would, like numerous dutch guys did of the same
| school, kick the fuck out of the competition. Never had
| that interest. I like the movements and indeed the art
| behind it. Someone in this thread said boxing is like
| ballroom dancing; I really don't see that. Maybe it can
| be; but if you want to win, it's not dancing and the
| aspect of wanting 'to win' makes it not at all like
| dancing (or maybe I don't know this dance).
|
| Anyway; as a kid I did Judo and after that Kyokushinkai
| and Jiujitsu 3-4 hours a day for many years.
|
| I am 50 now and I can do things many 50 year olds cannot
| do, but the joy for me is that I feel like when I go to
| aikido class 3 times a week, it is an art and it doesn't
| feel like I have to ever stop doing it as I don't need
| (but can I guess) to bash in faces in a rings.
| fransje26 wrote:
| Thank you for your reply.
|
| I really wanted to try Aikido, and went as far as doing
| an introductory class at university. Everything was fine
| until the next morning when I couldn't bend my elbow
| anymore, with an over strain pain that lasted more than a
| week. I was quite in shape at the time, so I took it as a
| sign that maybe it wasn't for me. (Or at least not in
| that school..) And that stopped me in my tracks
| unfortunately.
|
| But I'll keep your feedback in the back of my head, and
| let's see what the future brings.
| gcanyon wrote:
| Obligatory mention of the fact that the best exercise is the one
| you'll do, regardless of what it is. Dance might be better for
| your brain than cycling, but neither helps anything if you give
| up on them after a few months. So find the (best) exercise you'll
| actually keep up with, and keep up with that. Even if it's only
| walking a few blocks a day, that's better than nothing.
| bogtog wrote:
| I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance
| vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that
| activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main
| effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the
| brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted.
| However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference
| between the dance vs. exercise groups. This means that the study
| is overall off to a pretty bad start if their goal is to study
| dance vs. exercise differences...
|
| The brain data claims to show that the dance vs. exercise groups
| showed different levels of improvement in various regions.
| However, the brain effects are tiny and are probably just random
| noise (I'm referring to those red spots, which are very small and
| almost certainly don't reflect proper correction for multiple
| hypotheses given that the authors effectively tested 1000s or
| 10000s of different areas). The authors' claims about BDNF are
| supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions
| hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are
| rubbish.
|
| In general, my priors on "we can detect subtle changes in brain
| matter over a 6-week period" are also very low. Perhaps, a study
| with this sample size could show that activity of some kind
| influences the brain over such a short length, but I am extremely
| skeptical that this type of study could detect differences
| between dance vs. exercise effects.
| ericmcer wrote:
| I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that
| training more complex motions would trigger greater brain
| improvements.
|
| Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill
| activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise
| bike.
| macintux wrote:
| Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an
| adult, only to discover it was for people who were already
| experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more
| complex than exercise.
|
| Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run
| through a complex step two or three times, and we were
| expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand
| what we were doing _while_ we were doing it, there was no way
| I could reproduce it.
| eep_social wrote:
| I think gp's point was that "exercise" encompasses a range
| from stationary bike to olympic lifts. Dancing is on the
| same end of that range as olympic lifting or a sport like
| basketball insofar as they all require intentional
| practice.
| WalterBright wrote:
| What works is to go through the steps very slowly. As it
| moves into muscle memory, you can speed it up.
|
| Dance training is a whole body thing. There's steps, ankle
| position, foot turnout, posture, what to do with your arms,
| what to do with your fingers, where your eyes are looking,
| and on and on.
|
| The very first thing, though, is getting the steps into
| your muscle memory. Then one by one, you start layering on
| the rest.
| alaithea wrote:
| I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the
| sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance
| disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller
| movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those
| sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines.
| The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from
| brain science about chunking objects in memory for better
| recall. But tap has few of those chunked sequences, other
| than the "time step," so you're left trying to parse long
| strings of very finite instructions. "Left ball right heel
| left flap ball change..." Personally I found it
| overwhelming and didn't pursue tap into the most advanced
| levels for that reason.
|
| Aside: it seemed like neurotypical folks struggled less
| with tap than I did as an AuDHD person, so tap may land
| differently with different neurotypes.
| astura wrote:
| People are different, I tap danced for years but I found
| ballet almost impossible to pick up for it's complexity
| and dumb poses.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I have experience with a few types of dance including salsa
| and bachata, and also compete as a strength athlete- and
| find some of the more complex weight lifting moves- such as
| the push jerk- a lot harder and more technical than
| anything I've learned dancing. If every aspect of your
| timing and form aren't perfect, it simply does not work at
| heavier weights, and can take years of constant practice to
| perfect. The extra burden of having to output 100 percent
| effort while trying to do everything else perfect is very
| mentally demanding.
| justsee wrote:
| Beyond fundamental moves in any partner dance style, the
| complexity increases significantly.
|
| It's not just your coordination and flexibility in
| placing legs, feet, arms, hands, torso in various
| positions at the right time, it's also leading your
| follower, adapting to their own abilities, tension,
| movement, mobility, and mood, connecting with them
| energetically, with the music, with the floor, and
| practicing dance floor awareness to avoid collisions with
| other dancers, adapt your moves to a rapidly shifting
| available dance space, and being creative and
| spontaneous.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I imagine, being an art form, there is almost limitless
| possibility for complexity and difficulty in dance.
| However, I would argue the same is also true for strength
| sports, which ultimately are a type of martial art. I
| don't think one is categorically simpler than the other-
| they both offer people of any skill and ability level
| lifelong challenges. My point was not to claim dance was
| easy but that "exercise" is not always something simple
| and mindless that once learned you just tune out and let
| your body do. Personally, I can't stick with something
| boring- having ADHD, exercise is only possible for me if
| it is also fully mentally engaging.
| viraptor wrote:
| You got thrown into a class above your skill level. That's
| bad on the teacher for not telling you really. Once you
| know the basics the rest is easier to build on top of that,
| but otherwise it's like trying to tell someone about design
| patterns while they're still struggling with syntax in
| programming.
|
| If you liked the idea, give it a go with beginners again.
| You'll get back to that higher level soon anyway.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| In fact dance based exercise like Zumba, or boxing even, is
| very helpful with folks suffering Parkinson's because it
| require multiple tasks be processed at once - rhythm, hand,
| foot, observation of the lead. This induces plasticity which
| is crucial in staving Parkinson's decline. So I find it
| strange to assert exercise alone is the beneficial component
| as it's clear in pathological situations where increasing
| plasticity yields slower declines dance and complex exercise
| that requires many integrated tasks is superior to simple
| exercise.
| vunderba wrote:
| I was thinking the same thing too. I mean shocker: high
| cardio + spatial awareness > high cardio alone.
|
| For your money, you can't beat games like Pump It Up for a
| combination of HIIT (High Intensity Interval training) and
| the additional cognitive load that comes from the
| choreography of your steps and rhythmic timing.
| bsder wrote:
| It could also be the _social_ aspect of dance. Dancing
| requires interacting with people that general exercise does
| not.
|
| Social interaction has been shown over and over and over to
| have a beneficial effect on people.
| dangom wrote:
| Depends on what you mean by "improvements". Is it
| coordination? Is it sustained increased blood flow? I would
| imagine that different bike exercise regimens could induce
| more variation in fitness than the comparison dance vs
| exercise alone.
| zophiana wrote:
| I agree that the sample size might be a bit small so it could
| be noise, but the study did went 6-month not 6-weeks.
|
| And there are findings like these
| https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| wdkrnls wrote:
| Or it could be a problem of seeking statistical detection of
| any difference whatsoever versus detecting a practically
| meaningful difference... a type III error (answering the
| wrong question).
| westurner wrote:
| Cardiovascular exercise correlates with subsequent synthesis of
| endocannabinoids, which affect hippocampal neurogeneration and
| probably thereby neuroplasticity.
|
| From "Environment shapes emotional cognitive abilities more
| than genes" (2024)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40105068#40107602 :
|
| > _hippocampal plasticity and hippocampal neurogenesis also
| appear to be affected by dancing and omega-3,6 (which are
| transformed into endocannabinoids by the
| body):https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109698 _
|
| Also, isn't there selection bias to observational dance
| studies? If not in good general health, is a person likely to
| pursue regular dancing? Though, dance lifts mood and gets the
| cardiovascular system going.
|
| Dance involves spatial sense and proprioception and probably
| all of the senses.
| agumonkey wrote:
| My random opinion is that dance or dance like activities are a
| sweet spot between low intensity and high intensity exercise
| that involves a lot more balance, coordination and fluidity
| than most physical activities promoted for health overall
| (they're either too simple or too hard), these traits are (I
| believe) very important to your brain. Add the social aspect as
| an important bonus.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Yes, moving as one with your partner is a big part of it, and
| where much of the pleasure comes from.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Yeah I believe that our brains are extremely sensitive to
| shared experience, work, art, movement or else (singing in
| harmony would work too). It might even tap in primitive
| toddler brain phases.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Dance is very _Gemeinschaft_ : https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/Gemeinschaft_and_Gesellschaft
|
| > _singing in harmony would work too_
|
| I believe at least some Amish sing at very low BPM.
|
| Two possible interpretations: (a) they share the opinions
| of Baptists when it comes to dancing, so the BPM is
| deliberately so low as to be clearly undanceable, and (b)
| at normal BPM individual participants might just be
| staying in rhythm, low BPM requires close attentiveness
| to the whole to stay together.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| > The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of
| p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p >
| .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish.
|
| Also, I don't have the references handy, but I recall other
| studies showing that exercise-induced BDNF changes can be
| mediated by e.g. air pollution. So even if the difference there
| is real, it might be premature to attribute it specifically to
| the mode of training.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Do more complex movements stimulate our neural pathways more
| than less complex movements?
| maxwell wrote:
| https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz
| rqtwteye wrote:
| I think that's why I prefer exercise with some level of freedom.
| Free weights feel more engaging than machines. A fast hike up a
| mountain feels better than running on a treadmill indoors.
| djmips wrote:
| My hope is that DDR is a form of dance training.
| chaostheory wrote:
| I found the Les Mill's XR Dance to be a great workout app in VR.
|
| https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478
|
| The research results aren't surprising since dance is more
| complicated than something like HIIT. Martial arts training would
| likely have a similar effect unless sparring involved lots of
| hits to the head.
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| One dancer-and-programmer friend of mine invented the below
| thinking, after i introduced him into the "relation is an object"
| paradigm in software..: When movement becomes
| dance? Dance is the "relation" between movement and
| meaning. The key is whether someone can put it / sense it .
| someone = a dancer or the-other-kind-of-dancer-called-spectator
| meaning = very-very abstract. Like, even concentration can be
| meaning
| blueyes wrote:
| Dance requires balance and often involves social interaction,
| while lots of physical exercise does not. Balance and more
| precisely imbalance is a good way to stimulate adrenaline in the
| brain, which can accelerate learning. Claude Shannon, fwiw, loved
| unicycles.
| ziofill wrote:
| I don't find this hard to believe. I'm no brain scientist, but
| dance puts together several senses and proprioception: music,
| rhythm, one's position in 3D space, balance, _and_ physical
| exercise...
| pandemic_region wrote:
| .... in the elderly.
| alunchbox wrote:
| A book I read 'spark' by John J Ratey, discussed this in a few
| chapters. Cardio/Running at 70% maximum heart rate lead to brain
| plasticity and even allowing new synapses to make connections and
| grow. However, he did argue an exercise that also required
| concentration e.g dancing, basketball, skateboarding would have
| better results.
|
| It's absolutely crazy, that we misunderstand how our brains are
| intended to work in the old world. Our brains are for movement,
| the ability to think, plan and utilize tools appears to have been
| a happy accident that allowed our ancestor an advantage in
| survival.
|
| brains be braining.
| agumonkey wrote:
| sophisticated coordination and balance are the most effectful
| brain stimulation i know, it also makes you develop a different
| understanding of space and time which makes you calmer (larger
| planning abilities maybe ?)
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| I like trail running. It combines cardio with balance and
| problem solving (where do you place your feet, dodging
| obstacles, recovering from stumbles, very dynamic compared to
| running on a road or treadmill).
|
| I strongly believe that trail running is much less prone to
| cause repetitive stress injuries, I see so many people pound
| thousands of kilometres on pavement and then wonder why their
| knees give out at 45.
|
| On the other side I know people getting injured when trail
| running, but it always seems to be acute (like scraping a knee
| or spraining an ankle) and they are back at it within a week or
| two.
|
| Finally, at a pseudoscience level I believe that we as humans
| evolved to run over uneven semi-soft ground and therefore trail
| running is one of the most natural movements.
| tgv wrote:
| One should really not draw conclusions based on this.
|
| * It's a (small) group of 63-80 year olds.
|
| * There's no evidence for increased neuro-plasticity. How could
| there be? There's only an dubious effect on BDNF plasma and "BDNF
| may be a possible mediating factor of adult neuroplasticity".
|
| * The groups start out with a difference, but by misapplying
| statistics, they conclude there's no difference.
| laristine wrote:
| For a research article, modifiers may be more important in
| imposing constraints and necessary insights in cause and effect.
| The full title of this article is "Dance training is superior to
| _repetitive_ physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity _in
| the elderly_ ".
|
| While the current title on HN is "Dance training superior to
| physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity".
| polishdude20 wrote:
| On the same note, has anyone joined any dance classes alone? What
| did you join? How was it going alone? Did you make friends? Do
| you still do it?
| momojo wrote:
| Can I ask how old you are? How many of your friends are
| interested in dance? Are you interested because others are
| going or does it stem from an intrinsic desire?
|
| Many of my friends (late 20's, early 30s) wouldn't dream of
| being the first on a dance floor, or trying a class. I think
| most would rather shoot hoops or go hiking. Dance doesn't even
| occur to them as an option.
|
| My personal theory is that there's a stigma. Social dancing is
| what old people do. (Although I don't want to discount the
| k-pop dance scene I witnessed in college. That had a more
| performative aspect to it though, like marching band).
| polishdude20 wrote:
| I'm 31. None of my friends are interested. I mainly wanna try
| swing dancing because I saw a video of a competition and it
| looked like so much fun. It's really cool seeing people be
| able to command their body confidently and I see that and
| think "I wanna do that".
| allenu wrote:
| I did about ten years ago and danced weekly for 5+ years (swing
| dancing). I joined classes alone and it went totally fine. You
| make friends in the class and if you go dancing regularly, you
| see the same people, so you start forming a community. Best of
| all, people who go to the dances are there to dance and not get
| drunk, so it's a great, safe way to meet other people who want
| to socialize, too.
|
| I stopped going regularly after a little over 5 years, mostly
| because I was plateauing in my dancing and getting bored with
| it. In my experience, you plateau multiple times, just as with
| any skill, but you find a way to get better and more creative,
| but at that point, my heart wasn't into improving anymore so I
| wasn't enjoying it as much. I definitely keep telling myself to
| get back into it, however, because it's such a great social
| outlet.
|
| I'll also add that it's a really great activity because it's
| physical, it's creative, and it's social. Partner dancing
| forces you to learn how to work with other people and
| communicate better. Not everyone you dance with has the same
| skill level and you might think you're doing well communicating
| (when you're leading) but after dancing with several people you
| find out right away where you're not doing a good job.
|
| I also did find that it made me more aware of my movements and
| improved my musicality. I got better at watching other people
| dance and seeing what movements they made and how they
| choreographed their "routines". That kind of tickled a
| different part of my brain I hadn't used before in any other
| activity. The "plateauing" I mentioned earlier forced me to get
| better at watching others and repeating what they did as well
| as seeing what I was doing and trying to change it up if it was
| getting stale.
| 3523582908 wrote:
| My own personal experience, but my 80 year old FIL changed a lot
| after he started going to dance classes. He was always in decent
| physical health, but prior to the classes he was a very stressed,
| unhappy, solitary type of person. Since then he's become much
| more extroverted, social, and generally happier.
|
| Obviously I think the benefits are more than just the dancing
| itself, such as the community, but even when you ask him directly
| about what he thinks caused the change he points to dance
| classes.
| veidelis wrote:
| I've heard that learning new types of motions helps to increase
| brain plasticity. I would assume it works best with some amount
| of cardio exercises.
| not5150 wrote:
| It would be interesting to see the results compared to martial
| arts, specifically martial arts which require you to perform
| kata/forms or a set of prearranged moves/strike. So it's
| basically like a dance, but something like block, punch, turn,
| kick low, kick high, spinning back kick, etc for 1-3 minutes.
|
| American Kenpo brown belt kata I'm looking at you!
| riedel wrote:
| I remember that going through a lot of media (actually back in
| 2015 already) in Germany. My parents in law (in their 80s) dance
| a lot and can assure it actually keeps them really fit. However,
| I never learned to dance and I wonder really if I can really
| learn it when I go to pension age..
|
| Previous discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732
| mikhmha wrote:
| A bit unrelated to the main topic but whenever I exceed a certain
| threshold of smoking cannabis (>0.3g) it seems to induce some
| automatic rhythmic movement in me. If there's music playing I can
| tune into the rhythm of the music. If there's no music, I will
| move around a lot while twisting my limbs, stretching my arms,
| holding positions and breathing, in various rhythmic and also
| strange ways. Some people have described it resembling a form of
| yoga or tai-chi. Whatever it is, it feels like a benefit? I've
| noticed my posture has improved and in the gym my numbers have
| also gone up despite 0 diet changes. Its like a full body stretch
| that activates all these minor muscles in my body.
|
| I don't know - whenever I think about quitting this "bad" habit,
| I remember that it would just be replaced by sitting around
| looking at my phone. Being put into this physical trance by a
| drug has to be infinitely more healthy than that right? I trade
| one addiction for another.
| dsclough wrote:
| THCs effects on proprioception are interesting enough to be
| worth pursuing if you have any interests in the physical realm.
| Dancing, climbing, lifting weights, running. Clearly one should
| be careful and I wish weed was still good for me but it's just
| anxiety city so I'll leave it to the folks who haven't ruined
| their brains to enjoy.
| pgt wrote:
| Dance is more social than solo physical exercise. Would make
| sense that it triggers more brain activity in different areas.
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