[HN Gopher] A $1k Wheelchair
___________________________________________________________________
A $1k Wheelchair
Author : bo0tzz
Score : 385 points
Date : 2024-10-01 17:25 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newmobility.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (newmobility.com)
| tocs3 wrote:
| It would be nice to see a little more of this in the world. Thank
| you Cambry and Zack Nelson.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| I just checked online and wheelchairs here (Canada) can be had
| for about US $500. What am I missing in this $1K "affordable"
| wheelchair idea?
| flyrain wrote:
| Most of them are under $200 in Amazon
| skylurk wrote:
| Would you buy an under-$200 bike off of Amazon? Especially
| one you spent all day on?
| tredre3 wrote:
| I don't know about Amazon, but $200 is the price of a
| reasonable entry-level bike in any large surface store so
| yes?
|
| I know this is HN and people will likely look down on
| anyone riding a <$2000 bike, but come on.
| pjdesno wrote:
| I ride a lot, and am happy to ride cheap bikes, but I
| probably wouldn't ride a $200 Amazon or Walmart bike for
| rides longer than 30-40 miles without swapping the
| saddle, which would add anywhere from $40 to $150.
| ajford wrote:
| The question was would you spend that on a device you
| spend 8+hrs in each day, which is something people often
| ignore.
|
| This is a device you _live_ in. This is someone's
| mobility and independence you're talking about. Not a "I
| spend 30 minutes to an hour a day riding", or a "I
| commute to work on this" but instead "I use this to enjoy
| life".
| kelnos wrote:
| Most people don't ride their bike every single day,
| sometimes for 8-12 hours per day.
|
| If you did, you probably wouldn't be particularly happy
| with a $200 bike.
| plorkyeran wrote:
| $200 is a reasonable price for a bicycle-shaped garage
| decoration which gets ridden for 30 minutes per month,
| which is indeed all that many people want out of a
| bicycle. Something practical for a 15 minute one-way
| commute that you ride every day is more like $500 new.
| Something which you could spend all day every day on
| would be a _lot_ more.
| ekidd wrote:
| When our kids were growing quickly, we went through a
| number of sub-$300 bikes, both new and gifted by family.
| I ended up doing about one repair every two weeks,
| including broken derailleurs, junky brakes, jammed
| wheels, you name it. And our kids did not abuse those
| bikes.
|
| I ended up buying a bike stand and a basic toolkit just
| so I could fix those bikes quickly and get the kids back
| outside. The parts on those bikes were absolute garbage
| and the reliability was zero.
|
| Meanwhile I have a medium/high-end mountain bike from
| 1997 that still has some original parts on it, despite
| having seen time as a daily commuter and a trail bike.
|
| A good thing to look at is resale value. Around here, you
| can resell a $1200 mountain bike for a good price. But
| you'd lucky to get much for a $800 bike.
| toast0 wrote:
| No, there are much better under-$200 bikes on craigslist.
| :P Get a nice $100 bike from the early 80s and pay a bike
| store for a tuneup, and you've got a pretty useful bike to
| ride on all day; gotta friction shift though. Not a lot of
| great looking wheelchairs on craigslist near me though.
| rtkwe wrote:
| There are many different classes of wheelchair. Most of the
| really cheap versions are medical chairs for people who can't
| move on their own for whatever reason, think the kind you see
| at hospitals or nursing homes for wheeling people around.
| This type is for people who can't walk but can still sit
| upright on their own and can move the wheelchair on their
| own. They're lighter, rigid and have higher efficiency than
| the medical type. They're also semi custom or adjustable to
| fit the user better than the temp/medical kind.
| badjoak wrote:
| Smart phone under $200, would you want one?
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Go to someone who doesn't know anything about smartphones
| and he'll say sure hit me up.
|
| That's me, I know nothing about wheelchairs, hence why I'm
| asking.
| jrexilius wrote:
| Insurance approved I think is the key differentiator.
| notatoad wrote:
| the article isn't super clear, but it didn't sound like the
| goal for the $1000 wheelchair was for it to be insurance
| approved.
| bluGill wrote:
| Insurance only pays for one chair every 8 years (IIRC, my
| aunt who was in a wheelchair died a few years back and so
| now I no longer have family conversations about these
| details). The ability to get custom chairs for different
| purposes would be nice. My aunt had an off road wheelchair
| for using around the yard, back when she could walk around
| the house (with a cane), but the doctor warned her she
| would be full time in a wheelchair around the house before
| the next time insurance would buy her one. So if you can
| get the expensive wheel chair for around the yard and
| afford to buy without insurance a second better suited for
| around the house that would be useful.
| hinkley wrote:
| In the middle of the article they say that an insurance-
| approved wheelchair will tend to cost the patient $1000
| after insurance. They're aiming for private purchase at the
| same price.
| bee_rider wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > When I first heard about this, it sounded awesome and a bit
| far-fetched. It's hard to find a pair of quality wheelchair
| wheels for less than $500. Same with a rigid backrest. How were
| they going to offer both, plus a custom wheelchair frame
| without compromising on quality?
|
| I have no idea though. Maybe there are sort of like...
| different classes of wheelchair, and they are trying to make
| not-terrible one? Like technically $5 headphones exist but not
| from a hobbyist point of view.
| sethrd_ wrote:
| Are you looking at "hospital" style wheelchairs, or dedicated
| use wheelchairs? The difference is huge. Those hospital style,
| one size fits all chairs are HEAVY, clunky, slow, and tire you
| out very easily if you don't have someone pushing you. Someone
| with a spinal cord injury or a variety of mobility constrants
| would be better off in a dedicated chair like this as they are
| lighter (sub 20lbs), designed to fit to the user, and offer
| more comfort which combats things like skin wounds.
|
| If you look at wheelchairs from companies like TiLite or
| Quickie, you are starting off at almost double this price
| before any customization (rims, guards, etc). $1000 all in for
| a dedicated wheelchair is fantastic.
| hinkley wrote:
| The weight of a bike or a wheelchair matters a lot less when
| you're at low speeds on level terrain without many turns,
| which describes a hospital to a T - they have to be able to
| get gurneys through these spaces, and if you think a
| wheelchair is heavy then brother have I got news for you.
|
| But the moment you go outside now you're dealing with ramps
| and hills.
| 91bananas wrote:
| I'm 38, more fit than most, I had to interact with my
| father-in-law's wheelchair this weekend for the first time.
| He is 73 and expected to travel with it everywhere, lifting
| it in and out of some kind of a vehicle. I would _very_
| much describe it as heavy, especially in the context of a
| 70+ (maybe 60+, maybe 50+) year old individual. I'm
| wondering what the news is.
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| $500 buys you a decent enough but hardly "happy to live with"
| indoor chair. Not the kind of chair that you go shopping in.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > What am I missing in this $1K "affordable" wheelchair idea?
|
| Truckloads of paperwork, at least in the EU. Wheelchairs are
| regulated as "medical devices" since 2017, which does make
| sense given that people tend to spend a large portion of their
| day sitting in them and that they tend to be on the upper end
| of the body weight distribution... but the certifications make
| them much more expensive than they'd need to be, and they also
| prevent competition from entering the market.
|
| Additionally, laws of scale apply here as well. Wheelchairs are
| a pretty bespoke, small scale industry - outside of large
| orders from civil protection agencies to be used in mass
| evacuation scenarios (the German THW and Red Cross for example
| have stockpiles, mostly used in foreign aid/crisis response and
| WW2-era bomb evacuations), every user has their own specific
| needs, making mass production all but infeasible.
| fencepost wrote:
| You can get perfectly viable inexpensive bicycles as well - but
| if you were expecting to replace ALL of your other vehicle
| transport with a bike would you start by looking at ones with
| welded steel frames? The classic 80s Schwinn 10-speed that
| weighs in at 40 pounds but is pretty indestructible?
|
| That's a $500 wheelchair.
| jrexilius wrote:
| This pretty much embodies why I love hacker engineering. Solving
| hard problems by itself is fun, making peoples lives better in
| the process makes it really worthwhile.
| flimflamm wrote:
| Under 30$ in bulk less than 30 pieces.
| https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Dansong-best-selling-...
|
| 1k$ is pretty steep.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Shipping makes them pretty consistently $116ish/piece until you
| hit negotiated shipping numbers.
|
| They're also not the kind of wheelchair people are looking for
| if they're self mobile which is the kind of chair the article
| is reporting on. Those are made lighter and more resilient to
| stand up to being used by one person out in the world rolling
| themselves around.
| fodkodrasz wrote:
| These are not the same class of products.
|
| The alibaba ones are almost like disposable lower quality
| solutions, have textile backs, and are foldable, etc. which
| also have their places and uses eg. after disasters, mass
| depoyment, handout at hospitals as temporary solutions.
|
| The product in the linked article is clearly a higher quality
| item intended for longer term use by a single person.
|
| 1k$ is the cost of a decent office work-chair from any well-
| established low-to-medium volume vendor, as context. For a
| small shop like this it is an okay price, abeit the sum being a
| lot for many especialy in a new situation where they are forced
| to a wheelchair. Mass production could probably drive it down a
| lot, but you need volume for that.
|
| ps: with volume you can also better amortize the engineering
| costs, which can be significant even for stuff looking simple
| and easy to do for those who did not do it yet... or did (even
| significant, core) parts of the product development in a large
| established firm. I also started a product development for
| simple looking stuff that turned out to be a lot lot more work
| when not being done only as a hack/PoC, but developed to a
| product. I abandoned the product before going for the official
| certifications (FCC, CE, etc.). For medical equipment they
| probably also need to meet regulations.
| sekai wrote:
| > 1k$ is pretty steep.
|
| It's not if you don't want to sacrifice quality, USA made is
| also a bonus. Kudos to JerryRigEverything.
| Etheryte wrote:
| This is like saying a $30 display off Aliexpress is better than
| a $1000 display from a high quality brand. The only metric it
| will be better on will be the price, everything else will be a
| ridiculous comparison.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Go for it bud
| SirFatty wrote:
| before clicking the link, I thought it would be something along
| the lines of a Dean Kamen iBOT chair. Seems like a lot of money
| for a basic wheelchair.
| edm0nd wrote:
| These aren't basic wheelchairs like at the hospital imo. They
| are the wheelchairs that someone is going to spend their entire
| day/life in and use for mobility. Huge difference I think. It's
| also heavily customizable
| https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
| m463 wrote:
| hmm... looks like the ibot is available? $25-30k
|
| https://newmobility.com/the-ibot-is-back/
|
| also I looked and a walmart wheelchair is $149. Wonder why it
| sucks.
| kkfx wrote:
| Ehm... Seeing the product... A right price could be more 300$,
| and only because not made in China, than 1000... If mass produced
| could be more 150$...
| sethrd_ wrote:
| You should do some research into wheelchairs and the
| differences in designs, materials, and life times to better
| understand why the $1000 price tag on what the company is
| offering is actually incredible. This is for someone who has a
| spinal cord injury and has to be in a chair fulltime, not those
| hospital style chairs you are probably thinking of.
| fotta wrote:
| Custom fit lightweight wheelchairs are expensive. My Ti-Lite (one
| of the most popular lightweight chair brands) Aero Z starts at
| $3k and goes up quickly with wheels and backrest and casters and
| various other options that I need for sitting 16 hours a day
| without creating more problems. Insurance covers this for me
| every 5 years, but of course that's not a luxury every one has.
| Most plans don't cover DME 100%.
|
| What Zack and Cambry are doing is great.
|
| (edit) I'd like to add that I think part of being able to drive
| costs down is that they're not offering these via insurance so
| they sidestep the need for FDA approval to market it as a medical
| device (hence the company name), CMS approval and HCPCS coding
| and all the regulatory costs that come with that.
|
| Now don't get me started on power wheelchair cost...
| rtkwe wrote:
| It's odd seeing the number of dismissive comments missing that
| there are whole categories of wheelchairs for different
| purposes. It's like asking why XPSs exist when there are
| Chromebooks, something most people commenting here would
| immediately realize as a silly question because they suit
| different needs and functions but the idea doesn't come up
| because it's an unfamiliar problem.
| m463 wrote:
| I sort of think of left-handed people.
|
| I am right handed, but overused it and switched to a left-
| handed mouse.
|
| There are basically infinity right-handed mice, but basically
| zero left-handed mice, most of which are hedged ambidextrous
| mice.
|
| so looking at office chairs and standing desks and all kinds
| of ergonomics oriented towards healthy sitting, it seems
| amazing that there isn't more competition for people who sit
| more than anyone.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Sounds like a nice application for 3D printing tbh. Take
| the electronics from a regular mouse and fit into a left-
| handed housing with a range of shapes/sizes etc available!
| Call it "second hand"
| Miraste wrote:
| At least one guy on reddit did this and is still sending
| out the files for people who ask: https://old.reddit.com/
| r/MouseReview/comments/enxzgg/lefty_g...
|
| It seems like a massive pain though. Rebuilding a non-
| symmetrical mouse the other way would take electronics
| tinkering as well as 3d printing, and probably a ton of
| work to get all the connections and tolerances right.
|
| I am left handed, and I use trackpads with my left hand,
| but I gave up on lefty mice years ago and use an
| ergonomic one right-handed.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I'd assume the electronics are very modular and probably
| just clip into place in a single unit. You do need a
| battery compartment or something though, and the buttons
| need to fit well. Wheel can come from donor mouse.
| amarcheschi wrote:
| I felt comfortable with "neutral" mouses that aren't shaped
| right or left that I could use either with right or left
| hand
| vasco wrote:
| Most left handed people I know (me included), use the mouse
| with the right hand. Might be a bubble though, but I never
| thought to get a left handed mouse, or left handed scissors
| or most left handed things. There's a few things that
| really don't work (I play my drumkit with hands reversed),
| but most things are fine.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I tried using a mouse in my left hand in left handed mode
| back in the day. Eventually, I got tired of changing the
| settings on shared computers at home/school, and I
| realized it wasn't any more or less hard to use the mouse
| with my right hand. Today, I use a right handed vertical
| mouse. Interestingly, I play guitar right handed, despite
| being inspired to play by Kurt Cobain. My girlfriend got
| me left handed scissors as a joke, but man, they actually
| feel better.
|
| My sister used to use a neutral mouse, with her left
| hand, on the left side of the keyboard but in "normal" or
| "right handed mode". Now she has a laptop with a big
| touch pad in the middle.
| volkl48 wrote:
| I do what your sister used to do. (Left hand mouse use,
| buttons left at default).
|
| Even game that way. Started using it that way as a kid,
| by the time I learned it was possible to switch the
| buttons that seemed less natural than leaving it as
| default.
|
| Also made it much easier to use shared computers in
| school labs and the like.
| -mlv wrote:
| A lot of left-handed people are actually cross-dominant
| or selectively ambidextrous.
| j2bax wrote:
| I switched to an Apple Trackpad and it basically cured my
| wrist issues that I was experiencing.
| otteromkram wrote:
| I use dual mice for variety sake.
|
| The Logitech G300s has been solid as a lefty. They used to
| be cheap enough that replacing them every couple of years
| (depending on usage) was feasible, but I'm not sure if the
| market has driven up prices since then.
| MisterTea wrote:
| It's not odd because as you pointed out this is a tech
| oriented site and not a wheel chair oriented site.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The hope is that it is a site full of thoughtful people
| who've done at least a couple difficult projects. For that
| sort of person, the first instinct should not be to try and
| invalidate a project based on a couple seconds of googling.
| We should know that sometimes the problem takes more than a
| couple seconds of research to get to the real problem
| statement.
| rtkwe wrote:
| It's not but the concept that there may be more than one
| sub-type of a product (here: manual wheelchairs and their
| subtypes: "medical" [0], transport, etc) because there are
| many different scenarios for using any product is a
| universally applicable idea. You don't have to know much to
| see the cheaper types, see that they're physically
| different and figure out that there's a reason for there to
| be different types.
|
| It's an endemic problem in many fields but you see it a lot
| with programmers. It's the same class of cognitive bias
| that births ideas like "the law should be like a program,
| that would be much simpler" that were (still are?) big in
| tech circles. Lazy pattern matching and thinking that
| understanding one complex thing (programming) makes one
| automatically better at unrelated fields (complex
| manufacturing).
|
| [0] The type most people are most familiar with, large
| wheels, collapsible, handles for assistance from others.
| Generally not used by people who are able to move under
| their own power.
|
| [1] similar to "medical" but without the large back wheels
| so they're only mobile with another persons help or by
| scooting around using your feet.
| kube-system wrote:
| There are forms of technology other than software, and
| wheelchairs are one of them. YCombinator has invested in
| dozens of medical device startups... including devices in
| the mobility category:
| https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/trexo-robotics
| MisterTea wrote:
| You expect too much of people.
| kelnos wrote:
| Please stop. These cynical drive-by comments add nothing
| to the discussion.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I get it but the acting surprised feels condescending and
| annoying itself. Maybe I should have articulated that
| better. There are always ignorant people. Always. Take
| that opportunity to answer their questions and move on.
| Not this "I know right. gawd. youd think theyd know
| better..." come on man, that's just rude. Like of course,
| there are gonna be questions and confused people. Don't
| be condescending and act all surprised.
| bee_rider wrote:
| That sort of "I googled for 30 seconds, and found a cheaper
| option, why does this project exist" type response is anti-
| curiosity and anti-learning.
|
| It is _possible_ that the YouTuber guy is a total idiot and
| decided to make a $1000 wheelchair instead of buying a $200
| one, but that shouldn't be a default assumption, haha.
| singhrac wrote:
| I couldn't upvote this enough. A lot of drive-by cynicism I
| see these days is really just a lack of curiosity and bad
| faith assumptions (this guy must be an idiot, etc.).
|
| I see it a lot in practice especially when discussing
| early-stage business ideas.
| chipdart wrote:
| > A lot of drive-by cynicism I see these days is really
| just a lack of curiosity and bad faith assumptions (this
| guy must be an idiot, etc.).
|
| You're talking if guys pitching overpriced and
| underquality gear is completely unheard of, or if flawed
| business ideas are a rare occurrence.
|
| I get it, support and enthusiasm is always nice to have.
| But if you descend into the real world you'll see that
| more often than not you'll see a mix of fraud and
| overconfident people pitching undercooked ideas that they
| under deliver, and you're criticizing those who might as
| well have experienced that first-hand for a few times.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Well, I guess since I disagree with you, I must be an
| inhabitant of this non-real world. Dang, I wish I'd
| thought to deem myself the arbiter of reality.
|
| But from here, floating in the imaginary clouds, the
| error of the cynics was pretty easy to spot. It was that
| there are different types of wheelchairs and the cynics
| were just googling up the bargain-basement mass produced
| ones. I guess in the real world everything (including
| medical devices) is one-size-fits-all?
| kelnos wrote:
| There's another choice, though: instead of being a drive-
| by cynic, just _move on and don 't comment_.
|
| It's not like these people are providing a valuable
| service, steering everyone away from the dumb scams.
| They're just pattern matching and assuming everything
| they doesn't seem to make sense (in their generally not-
| well-informed opinion) must be bad.
|
| It's unnecessary, and is noise just as often as it's not.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >It is possible that the YouTuber guy is a total idiot and
| decided to make a $1000 wheelchair instead of buying a $200
| one, but that shouldn't be a default assumption, haha.
|
| Seems insane to assume that but we see it in tech all the
| time where someone unknowingly spends a ton of money on
| reinventing something that already exists.
| bee_rider wrote:
| It is possible, but one thoughtful takedown by somebody
| who actually knows the field is worth more than an
| infinite number of uninformed googled results.
| plorkyeran wrote:
| If you have some actual knowledge about a thing and can
| explain why it's pointless and already existed then
| that's a great thing to post. That's very different from
| just assuming that something you have no knowledge about
| is pointless, though. We certainly see lots of pointless
| reinventing in tech, but if something appears to be a
| pointless reinvention of something you could find in 30
| seconds with no prior knowledge, it nearly always _isn
| 't_ a pointless reinvention of that and you just don't
| know enough to understand what's different.
| nine_k wrote:
| Indeed. If I google for 30 seconds, and see a stark
| contradiction with what somebody offers, I try not to
| conclude that that the guy in question is a fool. This is
| always possible, but rarely true.
|
| Instead I conclude that likely _my_ understanding is
| lacking, and maybe educating myself a little bit would be
| beneficial. Either I find out something new and potentially
| useful about the world, or finally see through a swindle
| and understand how it works, which is always a good skill
| to exercise.
| janalsncm wrote:
| > anti-curiosity and anti-learning
|
| You nailed it. If I could go a bit deeper, I think the
| drive-by cynicism comes from a fundamental misunderstanding
| of people.
|
| Statistically, you are probably not _significantly_ smarter
| or dumber than most people you meet. In other words,
| someone who has spent months or years on a problem
| _probably knows more about it than you do_ if you're just
| now reading about it. So if someone with more experience is
| doing something you think is dumb, your first reaction
| should be to ask why rather than dismiss.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| One of the more valid use cases for AI is scanning forums
| an auto-labeling/hiding low quality comments.
| fotta wrote:
| In this case the OP is targeted towards people who are
| already familiar with this type of chair, so I can _sorta_
| understand why the reader who has only ever seen the hospital
| style chair is confused.
| rtkwe wrote:
| It's the lack of curiosity in not taking the small extra
| mental step of thinking "what niche does this clearly
| physically different product address?" that's the most
| galling/disappointing. Or having done the search and found
| very cheap alternatives thinking, "clearly the person
| setting up a business creating and with a partner that
| using these products daily missed that this already exists"
| immediately instead of looking at why JerryRigEverything
| might not be an idiot wasting his money.
| maxglute wrote:
| I think its just how cheap / rudimentary the basic model look
| for 1K. Like it seems there's a viable Indochino / send
| measurement to Asia manufacture model and get bespoke product
| back for fraction of the cost. Or some sort of modular break
| down kit that you can take to a bike shop to tune to custom
| needs for less. I admire Jerry's effort, but I think people
| correctly sees $200 product that cost $1000 in US, and
| somehow it's considered "affordable".
| rtkwe wrote:
| I haven't seen anyone pointing to an actual equivalent
| product available for $200 with shipping. The collapsible
| medical chairs I've seen when searching are not equivalent
| devices, they're heavier, more tiring and less durable and
| comfortable than the kind of chair in the article. This
| type of chair is semi-custom made to fit the user so they
| don't injure themselves or have unnecessary extra medical
| issues from using a chair all day and out in the world.
| maxglute wrote:
| I don't think/know there's equivalent manufacturer over
| seas, just insinuations it could probably be done much
| cheaper over seas, customization included. High
| performance light weight wheel chair "feels" like there's
| a lot of overlap with making bicycles and I find it hard
| to believe you can't find a shop in an East Asian bike
| factory that already has the machines and labourers with
| years of experience bending aluminum pipes to avoid
| amortizing capex costs. Dude wants Made In America, quick
| shipping time (which I wager is important) which is fine,
| but it's going look like a $200 product that cost $1000.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Dude wants Made In America, quick shipping time (which I
| wager is important) which is fine, but it's going look
| like a $200 product that cost $1000.
|
| We sorta have that with everything though, you can source
| direct from china for a fraction of the cost, but the
| often pay several multiples of the actual cost for
| someone else to import it and provide the level of
| support and QA you expect from products.
| maxglute wrote:
| TW also makes a lot of bikes. The amount of parts and
| fabrication on these wheel chairs don't look close to a
| $1000 bike, but I don't know how much component costs for
| wheel chairs are. Again, speaking from ignorance, this
| looks like $200 of assemble at parts that can then be
| taken to a bike shop to tune up for another $100. IMO the
| disconnect is this looks like such a rudimentary/basic
| product and it's hard to see the value of US premium and
| then discover this is "budget" version.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >The amount of parts and fabrication on these wheel
| chairs don't look close to a $1000 bike
|
| Only because bikes are made up of commodity parts from
| many suppliers which drive the costs down, whereas this
| is mostly bespoke.
|
| It is hilarious that people keep throwing out prices of
| $200 or $500, when $200 might get you close to the cost
| of one of the wheels on this.
|
| >IMO the disconnect is this looks like such a
| rudimentary/basic product
|
| Only to someone that's not familiar with what this is and
| what its competitors are.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Shipping will eat labor savings alive for these. Their
| frames are rigid so you'd have to either ship them in
| huge boxes the slow way (terrible for a custom product
| like this [0]), air freight them (probably upwards of 300
| dollars for the size? That's just a wild guess though) or
| ship them disassembled and take the durability hit that
| would require. If they were less customized to fit the
| user you could but it's not the product we're looking at
| so you can't make them in mass quantity and ship them to
| a warehouse in the US like you can with a lot of less
| custom products.
|
| It's also far less like bikes than you're thinking. They
| have 5 major adjustments for a total of about 25k
| different configurations. And those don't seem to be
| majorly exclusive to each other either.
|
| [0] Check out the number of tweaks available in their
| configurator:
| https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
| janalsncm wrote:
| I don't know anything about wheelchairs, but there's a
| similar very high-margin market for eyeglasses.
| Freakonomics did a podcast about it:
|
| https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-do-your-eyeglasses-
| cost...
|
| Frames have crazy 100x markups and the market is dominated
| by a small number of companies. They interviewed people
| from Warby Parker (a newer, more inexpensive brand) and
| even they said they had to _raise prices_ so they didn't
| seem like knock-offs.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| I think the dismissals come because wheelchair users are
| already painfully aware of the options.
|
| Yes, there are different kinds of wheelchairs, there's no
| reason a premade, presized wheelchair has to cost thousands
| and they don't. The premade chairs certainly serve a need -
| for those who can sort of walk but need the chair to go
| distances (etc).
|
| But the reason for custom wheelchairs is they are for people
| who spend all day, everyday in the chair. And that's where
| the need and the pain is greatest and so exhibiting a "ready
| made" chair just isn't going to impress them.
| enneff wrote:
| If you look at the dismissals in this HN discussion you'll
| find none of them are coming from wheelchair users or even
| people familiar with wheelchairs.
| gibrown wrote:
| Ya, I was expecting to see something not very impressive at
| that link, but was pleasantly surprised. My chair is about $7k
| and while this one doesn't look like it would work for me, it
| is definitely much better than the cheap hospital chairs.
| Narhem wrote:
| Anything medical becomes a licensing nightmare. With how
| expensive power wheelchairs get I'm shocked they don't come
| with a flight box.
| humbleferret wrote:
| I was curious so looked at a few power wheelchairs...It's wild
| how expensive they are, especially considering the advancements
| in electric mobility tech elsewhere. You'd think they'd share
| some components with e-scooters, e-bikes, or even electric cars
| - motors, batteries, controllers.
|
| Are the powertrains and control systems in power wheelchairs
| really that specialised? Or is it another case of the medical
| device markup and regulatory hurdles driving up costs?
| amiga wrote:
| I'm a guy who has disassembled and reverse engineered a
| standard Jazzy power chair, and what I noticed was the
| attention to detail regarding failures. The chair is
| thoroughly designed to shut down at the slightest bit of
| trouble. There's some redundancy in things like the
| controller, where it used redundant hall effect sensors that
| were identical to the others, but ran in an inverted power
| profile, to detect any weirdness in the sensor outputs.
|
| I ended up adding a long range remote control to it. A remote
| control power chair is fun to drive around. People do get a
| little concerned when they see a chair rolling around without
| a driver
| tomcam wrote:
| Hey, would you get started on power wheelchair costs? Inquiring
| minds would like to learn more.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> It's mesmerizing to watch. When the laser is done cutting,
| sometimes the leftover material just falls out, but sometimes it
| stays in place.
|
| Please be very careful when _watching_ an industrial laser,
| particularly one cutting shiny metal. I would honestly support
| any reg that puts hard barriers between eyeballs and running
| laser equipment. Invest in a good camera and watch the show on a
| screen.
| rtkwe wrote:
| It is enclosed. They show a picture later and there's a green
| safety window to view the work piece in the machine, that
| material will be designed to block whatever wavelength of light
| the laser is using (most likely IR, and what do you know safety
| glasses for the IR bands are mostly green).
| Havoc wrote:
| For context - he has a ~9m sub youtube channel on phones that
| must be banking it. This is a side project that appears to be
| grown out of frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow
| that wheelchair market is. Seems 10/10 wholesome to have this
| disrupted by someone that cares
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| > This is a side project that appears to be grown out of
| frustration of disabled wife & seeing the shitshow that
| wheelchair market is
|
| While it is absolutely true that he cares, I think you are
| selling his long term plans short. The primary growth factor
| for the channel was reviewing phones with the repairability /
| endurance focus, but somewhat recently he expanded to topics
| such as plugging abandoned oil wells which are leaking methane
| and wheelchair mobility issues. From what I understand he has a
| couple similar things in the pipeline.
| 123pie123 wrote:
| i think he's a better than average presenter for a youtube
| channel. I did like his huge bunker videos
|
| my biggest annoyance is his plugging or advertising stuff too
| obviously
| jeanlucas wrote:
| Man has to pay bills
| kube-system wrote:
| Obvious advertising is the most ethical kind.
| password4321 wrote:
| Thank you for pointing this out so clearly, I'd not
| thought about it this way before but this makes perfect
| sense in a "best of the worst" kind of way.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I'll take his transparent advertising over "native" ads any
| day.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Let's not forget that he also shoots stuff like the
| cybertruck for fun, which is awesome.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Didn't he also help get some libraries built in Kenya?
|
| I think so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R71uDa3DNw
| jmyeet wrote:
| So I follow some disability activists and it's kinda depressing
| just how hostile society is and people are to people with
| disabilities. And this crops up everywhere.
|
| So for wheelchairs, for example, airlines routinely damage or
| destroy or lose wheelchairs, like 1000+ a month [1]. You need to
| be aware that wheelchairs typically need to be customized for the
| user. You typically can't just buy a wheelchair on Amazon and
| you're good to go. Using a replacement wheelchair can represent a
| significant safety risk.
|
| Only now is the DoT starting to take action to curb this [2]. But
| what other group of people would such reckless disregard and
| gross negligence be tolerated for?
|
| We just had Hurricane Helene wreak havoc through Appalachia.
| Usually in these situations people on the outside will criticize
| those who didn't evacuate. This happened in Katrina too. But you
| know who often can't evacuate? Disabled people.
|
| Look at our response to Covid. The powers-that-be wanted everyone
| to get back to work and be busy worker bees that could once again
| produce value that would be exploited. So isolation restrictions
| were loosened. We capitulated to the irrational and completely
| self-centered whims of antivaxxers. There was a war on mask
| mandates. This went so far in some places as to literally _ban
| masks_ [3].
|
| This is all despite some people being immunocompromised and Covid
| never going away. We're essentially decided those people can just
| die.
|
| But beyond them, you know what else Covid was? A mass disabling
| event. I'm talking about long Covid. This affects probably
| millions of people. These once healthy people are going to learn
| the hard way what the wanton disregard for disabled people looks
| like.
|
| Anyway, I applaud efforts like cheaper and faster to produce
| wheelchairs. They won't suit everyone but we shouldn't tolerate a
| situation where it might take months for someone to get a
| wheelchair, But can we stop destroying wheelchairs too?
|
| [1]: https://blurredbylines.com/articles/broken-wheelchairs-
| airli...
|
| [2]: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234708784/airlines-
| wheelchai...
|
| [3]: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wearing-masks-public-now-
| illegal-n...
| xnx wrote:
| Went down a bit of a rabbit hole and found this industry guide to
| Taiwanese contract bike manufacturers:http://www.wheelgiant.com.t
| w/ebook/flib/2024TBS_%E6%95%B4%E6... If there was enough demand,
| I'm betting some of the companies in here could make quality
| wheelchairs real cheap.
| maxglute wrote:
| When bikeshare and scooter was gaining traction, I was hoping
| some manufacturer would look into collapsible electronic wheel
| chair for mass transportation. Maybe stupid, but think a few
| 100 million dollars and 1000s of engineer hours would make a
| pretty sweet slick wheel chair scooter for short commutes.
| manquer wrote:
| > if there was enough demand
|
| I really hope there truly isn't in a real sense.
|
| Old and new wars being fought with anti personnel mine and
| seeing the numbers of young and fit men and women losing limbs
| to uncaring political goals is disheartening reminder there
| well might be.
| fullstop wrote:
| There's a group of people in Australia who recycle bicycles
| into makeshift wheelchairs for people living in countries with
| inadequate healthcare. They pack flat and are assembled on-
| site.
|
| https://wheelchairtrust.org.au/
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Each wheelchair is custom so it's totally different than other
| products.
| xnx wrote:
| Is it totally different? Bikes are made and adjusted for a
| huge variety of body types. I understand there are different
| needs for wheel chair users, but I would think some level of
| adjustment would be possible to accommodate most of those.
| changing1999 wrote:
| I have no knowledge of this specific product area but wondering
| what aspect of the wheelchair in the photo results in this
| seemingly high cost? (to note, I understand that this is still
| far cheaper than other wheelchairs). Is it the material cost? It
| looks like it's just a few pipes, a cushion, and a pair of
| wheels. About the same build as a basic bicycle.
| paulddraper wrote:
| First, have you purchased a bicycle? "High quality" bicycles
| start at $1,000. (quality dimensions = weight, comfort,
| durability, flexibility)
|
| Second, small scale manufacturing is expensive.
|
| Third, large-scale manufactured wheelchairs have the same
| problem as the rest of the medical equipment world: prices are
| subsidized/inflated by insurance.
| bluGill wrote:
| Mostly the machines the factory uses. You can cut tubes by hand
| and drill those holes, but the machines are more accurate and
| faster. However those machines will cost you in the million
| range each in some cases. (the $1000 Chinese versions for home
| use are kits that will cost you $10k to make accurate and the
| quality means they will wear out fast so while find for
| building a couple they are more expensive than the million
| dollar machines in the long run) That investment needs to be
| amortized across whatever you build and wheelchairs are not
| high volume.
|
| You can't go with cheaper less flexible machines either because
| each wheelchair needs to be somewhat custom fit. That in turn
| means you need to the more expensive machines instead of simple
| jigs that. They also need someone to program the machines for
| your custom fit (or software to create that program)
| changing1999 wrote:
| Fascinating. I assumed that most manufacturing machines can
| be reconfigured to build anything that machine can handle
| physically (i.e. not a particularly specialized machine) and,
| therefore, can be bought for cheap, or used. Coming from
| software I don't have a frame of reference for manufacturing
| cost.
| bluGill wrote:
| Reconfiguerable is common but high cost. most jigs are
| custom made one offs at high cost. every bit of flexibility
| will cost you tens of thousands at minimun and millions on
| the high end. The parts are at most $100, it the
| engineering and skilled machinist time that adds up.
| rtkwe wrote:
| It's a relatively small market so the up front capital and
| ongoing labor costs are probably pretty restrictive. Those
| parts are more expensive than you realize though with the
| wheels being the most expensive part if I had to wager, they're
| critical, specialized, and need to stand up to a lot of abuse.
| hinkley wrote:
| I toured the Trek factory when they still made them in the
| US. They'd already drunk from the font of Goldratt wrt to
| Just in Time, but they would set up each day pretty much to
| make one model of bicycle for the whole day. Parts, tooling,
| paint booth, everything. The only thing that changed was
| sizes, and a model of bike tends to have the same geometries
| across all sizes. 78o angle here, 99o angle there. That may
| not be optimal for the rider but it's how you keep prices
| down and keep product lines from getting confusing.
|
| If that's true of wheelchairs, you can get some economies of
| scale even if sizes vary. If it's not, then maybe that's one
| of the things we should tackle.
| rtkwe wrote:
| The bend angle of the tube that forms the seat support down
| to the legs seems like one of their major adjustment points
| for comfort and efficiency so I don't think you could have
| a similar setup. These are essentially semi-custom not a
| simple size based product like a bike. The extra
| adjustments are important because the users are in them
| many more hours a day so small problems can cause long term
| issues.
|
| Their configurator has a very good model of what the chair
| will look like and you can see just how many knobs you can
| tweak and how that requires changing the core layout of the
| frame in a way that makes the kind of sizing system just
| not feasible. Scroll down on the Frame page to get to the
| fit sliders.
|
| https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
|
| edit: Did the math and there's something like 25k different
| configurations they're selling before accounting for paint
| colors, just in the frame measurements. Granted, that's not
| accounting for the improbability or incompatibility of some
| parameter sets but that's still going to be a couple
| thousand different configs to build and stock. It doesn't
| work like a bike.
| hinkley wrote:
| On a bike you have a little bit of flexibility due to the
| way the seat post works. Both in how the seat attaches
| and adding curves to the post, particularly for
| triathletes who like to favor their hamstrings over their
| quads, and sit considerably farther forward than any
| 'normal' cyclist would.
|
| I know I've seen wheelchairs where the back was a tube
| that went into a tube. If you put the curve in the
| replaceable part you get more adjustment but less
| support. Generally the tolerances on bikes are very tight
| and medical equipment seems to be all over the place.
| rtkwe wrote:
| They've done a lot of work it looks like to put in user
| level adjustments everywhere they can but to tweak the
| parameters on the frame page I don't see a great way to
| replace that. The curve it's tweaking is setting the
| angle between the legs and the seat already.
| ossobuco wrote:
| Or, what happens when you take greed and profit out of the
| equation.
| jeanlucas wrote:
| Hah, now it makes more sense why Jerry was being so active on
| GoodTimesWithScar Twitter feed. Scar is also a wheelchair user,
| but is mostly famous for his YouTube landscaping videos.
|
| Nice to see this, Jerry is not just another YouTuber grifter,
| he's a maker and has been involved building for his wife for a
| while.
| tredre3 wrote:
| His name is Zack, not Jerry. I know, it's confusing.
| jeanlucas wrote:
| Meh, lots of people call him Jerry for a while now. I know
| you're not aware because you're not a fan and just wants to
| one up on HN.
|
| He said already he chose Jerry in honor of his grandfather
| who was a fixer. On an interview with MKBHD (btw, I know
| MKBHD is not literally that guy's name) he said he just rolls
| with it when someone calls him Jerry.
| tredre3 wrote:
| I know you're just trying to gotcha me, but as a fellow fan
| you probably already know that he prefers when people call
| him by his given name.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| My former girlfriend gets powered wheelchairs through the Ontario
| Disability Support Program, and I witnessed and learned that the
| whole thing is such a fraud.
|
| Her powered chair was just over $20,000 and was a terrible piece
| of machinery. You were definitely not getting the "medical
| devices have to be reliable" premium. And any time the technician
| came out, we got a bill to forward to ODSP for thousands of
| dollars, even for the simplest fix.
|
| And of course there was zero competition: there was one and
| exactly one vendor you could go to for this stuff. They were, of
| course, terrible with customer service, terrible with technician
| competence, and their products were consistently terrible.
|
| I'm usually instantly skeptical of any tech startup that wants to
| airdrop into a problem space and disrupt things, but in this
| case, I'm 38,000% confident that there's something that can be
| done with this one.
| badjoak wrote:
| You had to have cashflow to pay those bills and wait for a
| redund? Sounds terrifying.
| loufe wrote:
| I have an Ontarian optometrist in the immediate family. I
| helped them set up a very tangled and innefficient ODSP
| claims process. It's a terribly, terribly managed program.
| I'm not sure if the OP has to pay and be reimbursed, but I
| wouldn't be surprised. That family member has to wait upwards
| of a year sometimes to be reimbursed, occaisionnaly they wait
| that much time only to be refused because of a "problem"
| which is not detailed anyways, so the business has to waste
| time to figure out problems. All the while, they are in the
| hole for that money.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >And of course there was zero competition: there was one and
| exactly one vendor you could go to for this stuff. They were,
| of course, terrible with customer service, terrible with
| technician competence, and their products were consistently
| terrible.
|
| It's probably not a cost effective market to be in and getting
| a government monopoly is the only way to make it viable in the
| first place.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Are there open source community for all things biomedical devices
| ? even partial exoskeleton (not joking, looking for practical
| attempts to help elders)
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Most of this stuff is still a bit too expensive for DIY,
| Festool have an ExoActive exoskeleton that might be
| repurposable - though I think it's designed mostly for holding
| weight above the head.
|
| There is the 'body braid' that is probably more suited for the
| tasks that the elderly have trouble with.
| modeless wrote:
| I just watched a factory tour of this yesterday:
| https://youtu.be/oBId9w7NgAQ Seems like they are setting up a
| pretty fancy operation using their YouTube money. Pretty cool!
| stevenseb wrote:
| Test comment for automation
| hinkley wrote:
| It did not occur to me that wheelchairs are this expensive. But
| then again they make fewer of them than bicycles and a bicycle
| you want to be on hundreds of days a year can start at that price
| and go up into car prices.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| That's really cool. But I also notice that when I go to thrift
| stores in my area that there are often wheelchairs available for
| $25 or less. Similar for walkers and other mobility devices that
| tend to be really expensive new.
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| This is why reading comments before contributing to the
| conversation is useful. There are already several comments
| outlining why a $25 wheelchair, especially a used one found at
| thrift stores, isn't comparable. Build quality, weight, fit,
| convenience, portability - all of these are reasons to spend
| more on a wheelchair.
|
| We don't question why different computers are more expensive
| than others even though they all do the same job. We don't
| question why one bike costs more than another despite using the
| same mechanism for propulsion. Wheelchairs are another good
| with varying levels of quality at different price points. It's
| arguably more important for quality goods to be accessible
| because for many, they're living in these things constantly.
| basirulbillah wrote:
| 1k for a wheelchair is unbelievable for me. In Bangladesh they
| cost about 7 to 9 thousands taka which is equivalent 60 to 100
| USD. I don't understand.
| loufe wrote:
| There are obvious COL differences between regions which can
| account for a huge part of that. There's a reason we lost our
| manufacturing base in the west to China.
|
| Are the chairs you're speaking of customized? Are they using
| the components of a similar quality? That may be a component,
| as well.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >I don't understand.
|
| Almost completely different products.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Those are not custom (typically come pre-sized) and are
| generally not very usable outdoors to get around other than
| short distances. Sometimes known as "hospital wheelchairs". For
| people with temporary injuries who are mostly taking time off
| from work it's fine.
|
| This is a everyday wheelchair that people can use to get to
| somewhere a mile or two away and back, often used by people to
| get to work or around a university campus independently. It is
| custom made to your measurements:
| https://notawheelchair.com/pages/configurator
|
| https://www.sammcintosh.com/blog/wheelchairtypes0620
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| It's cool how they get both capital and distribution from their
| YouTube channel. Are there any other "real" business started from
| YouTube like this?
| tills13 wrote:
| for better or worse the entire Mr Beast empire and, to an
| extent, Logan Paul and his ventures (Prime, etc)
| ruune wrote:
| These never made it further than "I'm buying this because I
| like MrBeast/Logan Paul/etc." at least as far as I can tell.
| These wheelchairs are supposed to become good enough that any
| regular disabled person that can't walk* will seriously
| consider them even without knowing who makes them.
|
| *English isn't my first language, no idea what a proper
| inoffensive way to describe the target audience is. I mean no
| harm :)
| al_borland wrote:
| I ordered a Beast Burger on Door Dash without having any
| clue it was a Mr Beast thing until it showed up and was
| heavily branded. I wanted a burger and figured I'd try
| something new. I had never really watched any Mr Beast
| videos at that point. For whatever reason, he is never
| recommended to me.
|
| The seasoning was so strong it was a bit hard to eat. I
| assumed it was covering up for lower quality meat or
| something. I have no desire to order one again.
| huvarda wrote:
| Mr Beast burgers werent even a real restaurant. Theyre
| just faceless ghost kitchens with a mrbeast sticker
| slapped on top.
| al_borland wrote:
| The stuff Zack and Cambry are doing seems like it can exist
| even without the YouTube channel, once it reaches a point of
| awareness in the community and becomes self-sustaining.
|
| Most of the other YouTube products I see seem like they'd die
| quickly without a YouTube personality to prop them up. They
| aren't really filling gaps in the market, or doing something
| new, they're just slapping their name on something as a way to
| diversify their income sources. Some do seem to put a good
| amount of effort into helping with the design, or even work
| directly with the manufacturers, but they're entering crowded
| and well served spaces, where their primary differentiation is
| their YouTube channel. Fans are their target market, and I find
| it unlikely that most will grow beyond their audience. I don't
| see LTT becoming the next Craftsman, or MKBHD becoming the next
| Nike.
|
| Zack started out with the knife, which was a play on his
| YouTube success, but the various wheelchair adjacent things
| he's made stepped it up considerably. Others could do the same.
| It makes sense to test the waters and make some mistakes on
| something small before shooting for the moon. Time will tell
| how it plays out for all of them.
|
| If nothing else, having some of these examples could inspire
| kids to want to start businesses making stuff instead of just
| wanting to be YouTube famous.
| chasebank wrote:
| Youtuber Mark Rober started CrunchLabs from his youtube
| channel.
| joemi wrote:
| I think you mean promotion instead of distribution?
| double0jimb0 wrote:
| Two passes around the holes with the laser will get rid of the
| rewelding issue.
| nothercastle wrote:
| The BOM for this wheel chair is probably 200-300 of just wheels
| and bearings maybe more. People who say this can be bought for
| 200$ are completely out of touch. You can't even buy a decent
| bike for much under a grad new and bikes have much better scale.
| andybak wrote:
| My bike cost PS75
| syntaxfree wrote:
| Resale value is important for wheelchairs. My dad had an electric
| one for about 8 months before he passed on, and the TCO was well
| under the price of all these alt concepts.
| robocat wrote:
| Hopefully someone does the same thing for rollators (walking
| frames). I bought a few second-hand for my mum and they were all
| had disgustingly terrible usability. Brakes that didn't work
| properly (huge safety issue). Parts poking out (and flying brake-
| lines) that would catch on everything, or cause mum problems.
|
| One sharp bit at the wheels damaged the skin at her ankle and she
| couldn't do anything for weeks to recover. It was a very serious
| problem caused by thoughtless design.
|
| And we are in New Zealand which is better than many places. It is
| terrible watching people struggle in other countries (or lack
| access to the simplest requirement).
|
| Good usability is hard enough to find for the smart and strong.
|
| It is extremely hard to find for the weak and infirm. Especially
| when supplied through government services!
|
| Finding her a wheelchair was hard because she is tiny and needed
| a teen sized one. But everything available second-hand or through
| our social services was designed for heavier people with wide
| arses (imported chairs?). Luckily found a wheelchair manufacturer
| in my city that had one designed for a teen on special (end-of-
| line - not manufacturing standard wheelchairs any more - changing
| to focus on expensive specialist sports chairs).
| xyst wrote:
| That's a wholesome story. Hope the company stays employee owned
| for a long time. Seen too many companies which started like this
| but after exchanging a few hands (ie, ending up in the hands of
| grand children). It ends up getting scrapped for parts and sold
| to the highest bidder.
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