[HN Gopher] When To Do What You Love
___________________________________________________________________
When To Do What You Love
Author : underdeserver
Score : 181 points
Date : 2024-09-29 13:16 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (paulgraham.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (paulgraham.com)
| fjordingo wrote:
| > if you're young and good at technology...
|
| > ... but if you want to become super rich, and you're young and
| good at technology, working on what you're most interested in
| becomes a good idea again.
|
| It's sad to me that the wealth inequality manifested and upheld
| by the current structure of capitalism, that people like Graham
| full throatily endorse, creates this mentality.
|
| "If you're young" is a euphemism for "if you are free from the
| necessities of responsibility, and so are able to forego the lack
| of consistent income (and if you're in the states, a lack of
| employer provided health care".
|
| pg, encourage the companies you give money to pay an equal
| portion of profits to their employees, and maybe even the "olds"
| can be free do what they love; rather than the fear induced
| indentured servitude currently so predominant.
|
| May even give us better products and solutions, or as you say,
| allow people to do _actual_ "great work".
| slowmovintarget wrote:
| > wealth inequality manifested and upheld by the current
| structure of capitalism
|
| I've been having this conversation over dinner with my wife for
| the last few years. What else is there? Here are the broadly
| categorized economic systems that I'm aware of (I sincerely
| request correction if I'm incomplete or mistaken):
|
| - Subsistence (hunter/gatherer, limited farming... etc.)
|
| - Despotism, feudalism, and other ruler-based economies that
| mix governance with economy by fiat
|
| - Marxism (and it's entanglements into governance: socialism
| and communism)
|
| - Capitalism, though it eventually captures governance as a
| failure mode
|
| Of these systems, with the possible exception of subsistence,
| only capitalism really works. All forms of Marxism ever
| practiced lead to despotism, which most of us can agree is a
| bad thing. Even with a benevolent dictator for life, that life
| ends and the system degenerates at most in two generations of
| hereditary leadership.
|
| How do you reset capitalism so that we refresh to healthy
| markets (a prerequisite for capitalism to act as a force for
| societal welfare)? How do you turn back the clock on regulatory
| capture, and monopolized consolidation where firms move to
| become parasitic instead of exchanging value?
|
| Is there something else?
|
| And no, Marxism and collectivism is not it. Drowning the
| individual is not it. Marxism hasn't lost its appeal precisely
| because it's one of the few models that addresses dramatic pay
| disparity. But it was created in Britain thinking about the
| factory workers of the time. We know now that it includes
| errors and misunderstandings of fundamental human behavior that
| make it turn into tyranny every time. We also know that it
| necessarily leads to central planning which is fragile and
| collapses. So that's not it.
|
| If not Marxism, and not capitalism, then what?
| feedforward wrote:
| > All forms of Marxism ever practiced lead to despotism,
| which most of us can agree is a bad thing.
|
| What you call a Marxist system is something that Marx said
| could only work in the most advanced country if it was ready
| for it, which in that time was Germany. He said such a system
| would not work elsewhere.
|
| So what form of Marxism failed? Even Lenin, who many Marxists
| did not consider Marxist, was a Marxist enough to say that
| Russia would not establish communism. That the Russian self-
| described Marxists had the chance to take power in Russia and
| they took it. That Lenin wanted to take power in early 1917
| came as a surprise to Stalin, Trotsky, Kamenev etc., in fact
| Trotsky was not even with Lenin then. It surprised them
| because it was not a Marxist idea. Then Lenin introduced the
| New Economic Policy, i.e. capitalism. Then he died.
|
| Marx clearly spelled out what not to do, and some did what he
| said not to do, then people attribute the failures of those
| who did what Marx said not to do, to Marx.
| mionhe wrote:
| This kind of argument seems to always pop up in this
| context.
|
| There have been 17 attempts that I'm aware of to create a
| government based off of the ideals that Marx preached.
|
| Of those 17 attempts, every one has ended up creating
| extreme poverty for the masses. Every one has led to
| massive amounts of death and abject misery. Every one has
| led to a dictator that sees his people as just cogs in a
| machine, easily replaced.
|
| No matter how great Marx's system is (and having seen the
| aftermath personally of one of those attempts to enact it,
| I'm inclined to think that his system of thinking is semi-
| articulate garbage), it's obvious that we can't do what he
| prescribed and get the results he claimed we would.
|
| Frankly, the part where all of the power temporarily
| concentrates before redistribution is the problem area: no
| one can withstand the temptation to just keep it.
|
| Or possibly they never intended to let it go in the first
| place.
| desumeku wrote:
| There are far more than 17 capitalist countries which
| meet every criteria you've listed as an evil of
| Communism.
| feedforward wrote:
| > There have been 17 attempts that I'm aware of to create
| a government based off of the ideals that Marx preached.
|
| What does Marx say in the Communist Manifesto?
|
| "The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany,
| because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois
| revolution that is bound to be carried out under more
| advanced conditions of European civilisation and with a
| much more developed proletariat than that of England was
| in the seventeenth, and France in the eighteenth century,
| and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be
| but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian
| revolution."
|
| This is what Marx said, what his ideals were. A political
| fight in a country with the developed proletariat of the
| Ruhr Valley - Germany. What he can be judged by is what
| he said.
|
| Marx said a precondition for his ideals would be the
| conditions the Ruhr Valley and Germany had. So if
| attempts made without the ingredients he stated failed,
| then Marx's ideals are shown to be correct. Your examples
| prove Marx was right.
| hamandcheese wrote:
| I just want capitalism where the capitalists pay the same tax
| rate as labor.
| samatman wrote:
| That sounds fairly awful. The top 1% of earners pay 45% of
| income tax (US figure). Why would you want laborers to pay
| so much more tax?
| hamandcheese wrote:
| I clearly wrote tax rate, not total taxes.
|
| And the top 1% gets a lot of wealth that isn't classified
| as income.
| gtirloni wrote:
| In what country is that?
|
| Average tax rate paid by billionaires in the US is close
| to 8%
|
| https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/briefing-
| room/2021/09/23/new-...
| samatman wrote:
| The US of course, I specifically said that.
|
| https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-
| federal-in...
|
| > _The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.9 percent
| average rate, nearly eight times higher than the 3.3
| percent average rate paid by the bottom half of
| taxpayers_
|
| > _The top 1 percent's income share rose from 22.2
| percent in 2020 to 26.3 percent in 2021 and its share of
| federal income taxes paid rose from 42.3 percent to 45.8
| percent._
|
| The post I was replying to suggested that everyone pay
| the same tax rate. I'm opposed to this. Progressive taxes
| are more fair, due to the marginal value of money.
| esolyt wrote:
| I'm not sure the best way to change minds is using a
| facetious tone and quoting meticulously-crafted numbers
| from a right-wing think tank.
|
| Billionaires get richer through asset appreciation, not
| income. The White House report is focusing on how fast
| the rich are getting richer and that's how they arrived
| at 8%.
|
| A worker's salary is taxed at a high rate like up to 40%,
| whereas a wealthy person's gains from assets are taxed at
| a much lower rate like 15%. And that is if they realize
| the gains at all, because their unrealized gains don't
| get taxed at all.
|
| Our current system (in which long term capital gains tax
| is much lower than income tax) rewards the owner class
| and punishes the workers.
|
| The figures are misleading because if you have low
| income, your effective tax rate is indeed lower than the
| wealthy. But then you're barely surviving anyway. So if
| you're poor, you're screwed because you're poor. If you
| have a livable income, you're screwed because of high
| taxes. But if you're wealthy, the system exists to serve
| you.
| samatman wrote:
| The IRS is not a right wing think tank, the source is
| quoted immediately and you can find it here:
| https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-individual-
| stat...
|
| You will discover that the numbers are reported
| correctly.
|
| > _A worker 's salary is taxed at a high rate like up to
| 40%_
|
| The bottom 50% are taxed at 3.35% of income. That's the
| IRS' number, not something "meticulously crafted by a
| right-wing think tank". Or completely made up.
|
| > _their unrealized gains don 't get taxed at all._
|
| Good. It would be an absolute disaster to tax unrealized
| gains because, well: they're unrealized. I'm sure the
| numerous serious problems with doing that will occur to
| anyone thinking about the question honestly for a little
| while. The most obvious would be the total destruction of
| what social mobility we do have.
|
| > _a wealthy [sic] person 's gains from assets are taxed
| at a much lower rate like 15%_
|
| This is insufficiently general. Anyone's gains from
| assets are taxed at a 15% rate for long-term gains. 60%
| of American families are homeowners, so it isn't correct
| to gloss receiving capital gains as exclusively the
| province of the wealthy.
|
| As I said before, I support progressive taxation, and a
| higher rate for people who own (not earn) in the top
| 0.1%, say 20%, is something I would support.
|
| But 15% is 4.5x of 3.35%, so in no world are the very
| wealthy paying a lower rate of tax than workers. It just
| isn't true. Therefore, if the OG poster got their wish,
| the 'capitalists' would pay much less tax, and the
| workers would pay a great deal more.
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| Capital gains tax is lower to offset the risk of taking a
| capital risk, which labor does not do in receiving a wage.
|
| Much of "labor" participates in capital risk through
| retirement accounts and homes, blurring this 19th century
| distinction.
|
| The "capitalists" are likely to sidestep taxation through
| politicians, lawyers and accountants (See the often quoted
| 1960s era "tax rate") which is a phenomenon of power, that
| exists pre-capitalism.
| gtirloni wrote:
| > How do you reset capitalism so that we refresh to healthy
| markets (a prerequisite for capitalism to act as a force for
| societal welfare)?
|
| Do you know about Sisyphus?
| desumeku wrote:
| It's far too late in the history of discourse to try and
| change this perception, but 'Marxism' is not really so much
| of a system in-of-itself more than it is a grouping of
| influential ideas that were propagated by Marx and
| disseminated throughout history. Marx at no point ever
| attempts to describe an ideal economic system - Communism as
| an idea is far more intagible to him, and many 'modern
| Marxists' have long since re-oriented their ideological
| critique away from 'the establishment of Communism' and
| towards 'survival under Capitalism' as modern society is
| inexorably more alien than Marx could have ever known.
| uhddfe wrote:
| I think your bulleted list is a bit wonky.
|
| The one that jumps out at me is implying "socialism is a form
| of Marxism" when it's the opposite that is true.
|
| There are thriving socialist governments right now. What
| benefit does your argument get from ignoring those?
|
| Why do you have "capitalism" and "despotism, feudalism, and
| other ruler based economies" separate? Are you unable to see
| the oligarchy of the US?
|
| > Drowning the individual is not it.
|
| Spreading ownership across those necessary for a thing to
| exist is drowning them? Or is it drowning the Csuites?
|
| If your online bookstore turned imitation product megastore
| requires the people boxing the goods and driving the trucks
| then they should own a piece of what their work creates; that
| means ownership in the company and a share in the wealth it
| creates.
|
| Is it because a CEO is golfing with war criminals that they
| deserve to capture the economic production from the labor of
| so many?
|
| The fact that a company can create one of the three riches
| men on the planet and have its employees who are the ones
| making that person's wealth be on government assistance is
| absolute bullshit.
|
| > What else is there?
|
| What indeed.
| desumeku wrote:
| > The fact that a company can create one of the three
| riches men on the planet and have its employees who are the
| ones making that person's wealth be on government
| assistance is absolute bullshit.
|
| I agree here. Even during the feudal era, if you happened
| to be employed in the envoy of one of the world's richest
| trading fleets, you would be treated with far greater
| respect than an Amazon worker.
| comfysocks wrote:
| In my opinion, a good first step is to stop looking at
| socialism and capitalism in absolute terms. I think its a
| mistake to idealistically cling to one archetype as the best
| of all possible archetypes. When you go the idealistic route,
| you are doomed to repeat the failings of the past.
|
| I would argue that the most successful economies are blended
| economies that have achieved success by blending elements of
| both systems and perhaps other systems as well.
|
| For example, the USA once had working conditions as described
| by Upton Sinclair in "The Jungle ." Those working conditions
| are no longer legal thanks to regulations. But regulations
| are an element of command-economy, not of free markets.
|
| An example from the other side is the rise of China's
| economy. I don't believe China could have become "the world's
| factory" without introducing elements of free market
| capitalism.
|
| During the cold war, propaganda made socialism the bogeyman
| to the west, and capitalism the bogeyman to the east. I don't
| think this fear is rational. To me they are just two economic
| archetypes of many. Each has its own merits and faults. The
| key is to apply them where they make sense.
|
| To me the real enemies are: authoritarianism and corruption.
|
| I see regulatory capture as a form of corruption. The
| regulators are corrupted by those who would like to
| externalize their costs onto society. How do we fight
| corruption? It's a tough battle, but remember it has been
| done before. Tammany hall, etc.
| throwaway98797 wrote:
| it's dangerous to take advice from those with superlative ability
| if you are only slightly above average
|
| often times it's not for you
|
| be honest of your place in this world
|
| enjoy the luck you have it's better than most
| jacknews wrote:
| More self-serving feel-good from pg
|
| The way to make billions, or even millions, is OWNERSHIP.
|
| Own the profits or some of the profits of other people's hard
| work and creativity in some way, either directly or indirectly
| (eg property), or the promise of such profits (stocks), and trade
| that.
|
| That's not to say you shouldn't work hard or create, yourself.
| Just that hard work, creativity, etc, in and of itself, doesn't
| pay. It pays off when you work harder (or smarter, or just
| luckier) than other people, in order to win or create ownership,
| that other people will then contribute to. Just like pg did.
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| If you make studio pottery you likely own everything, and still
| dont make money.
|
| Many FAANG employees are clearly in it for the money or status
| and have no real ownership. (Inb4 RSUs. They are treated as
| cash.)
|
| The Marxist analysis makes most sense in the context it came
| from - the Industrial Revolution where most economic value was
| concentrated in expensive machinery.
| ponector wrote:
| Their comment said to own other people's profit. And that is
| true: the only way to get really rich is to own results of
| work of millions other people. Like Musk, Zuckerberg or
| Mohammed bin Salman.
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| And my comment argues why that's not true:
|
| - many people prioritizing money are workers
|
| - many (most?) owners are not making money
|
| So in the context of this essay "choosing ownership" is not
| the key career choice facing young people.
| badpun wrote:
| Sport stars and top actors, musicians etc. are really rich
| too and they don't own other people's profit (or, at least,
| they made majority of their wealth off their own work, and
| then added extra money on top via investing their
| earnings).
| breck wrote:
| I didn't find any new terms here, but it was a great synthesis of
| a lot of his work. I also really enjoy the shorter length of the
| recent essays.
|
| Here's my user test:
| https://news.pub/?try=https://www.loom.com/embed/9ac3f3b85fd...
| BohdanPetryshyn wrote:
| I'm young and at a pivotal point in my life, where I need to
| decide whether to remain in my well-paying job in software
| engineering or pursue my dream of becoming an entrepreneur. This
| article has deeply inspired me, hitting at just the right moment
| to encourage me to aim higher and take the leap.
| dv35z wrote:
| Two things to check out: (1) find out the best university in
| your area, and see if they have a business incubator. Check out
| their events page - there's usually something interesting
| happening in the next couple of weeks - go to it with an open
| mind! Creators, investors, students, entrepreneurs all in one
| spot. Meet the organizer, and find out what kind of workshops
| would be valuable, and consider running one! They will help
| promote you! Usually, they'll have a busy group chat (WhatsApp)
| - get in there and see what services people need / offer...
|
| (2) Find out if there is a community maker-space in your area,
| and take a tour. You'll meet some of the most creative,
| entrepreneurial people there, and you'll see up-close, what's
| possible with product prototyping these days - 3D printed
| ceramics, robotics, CNC wood carving bots, metal carving, etc -
| and computer/code labs!
|
| I ran a "Get your product on Shopify" workshop in a maker-
| space. It was tons of fun and high value - got people booted up
| with a custom domain name, photo of their product online, Buy
| it Now button, make a business card with a QR code. For
| software experts this kind of thing is easy (a couple of hours
| etc), but for most people - it can feel like an extremely
| complicated mission (managing DNS records, or adjusting a
| theme's CSS - super tricky!). Not that you need to go be a
| Shopify installer! But the point is that you can help turn
| someones dream into reality, and its satisfying for all
| involved.
|
| Best of luck in the next chapter of your journey!
| underdeserver wrote:
| Be an entrepreneur. If it's not for you, you'll know within a
| few years.
| nine_k wrote:
| BTW not a terrible advice. Unless you go broke and burnt out,
| it might be a good way to get hired to much higher and more
| interesting and impactful positions.
| shafyy wrote:
| Don't go all in. Try starting your business on the side and see
| how it goes for a while.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Note that Paul Graham has a vested interest in you doing that
| and he writes with that in mind.
| com2kid wrote:
| Work at a job that contributes highly to a retirement fund
| (401k o If in the USA) and after you have maxed our your
| retirement savings for at least 5, if not 10 years, then go
| ahead and do something else.
|
| If I had waited 3 more years before I tried to go the startup
| route I'd have another 200-300k in the bank right now and I
| would have the financial independence to do whatever I want for
| however long I want right now.
|
| Compound growth is amazing, take advantage of it while you are
| as young as possible.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Don't do it. Wait until you have enough money to comfortably
| retire and paid off the mortgage etc, then do it.
| nine_k wrote:
| By that time, the interest and the energy may have gone.
|
| (If not, by all means pursue your passion after you have
| comfortably retired. I, for instance, assume that I will
| never have a chance to comfortably retire.)
| sph wrote:
| Here's advice from someone older, at probably the same pivotal
| point in life: only listen to those that say yes, go for it,
| those that _have done_. Then form your opinion, which you will
| do anyway.
|
| Being contrarian, negative, saying it's impossible, telling you
| to stay in your lane is the default for most people, especially
| on the internet, especially if they feel smarter than average,
| as you might find on a forum such as this. My thesis: _all_
| negative advice has negative value and can be discarded with
| extreme prejudice. There is no exception to this rule.
|
| Listen to those that have done, those you feel have something
| to teach, and put your personal spin to their advice when
| incorporating it in your own growth.
|
| Good luck!
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Probably the culture of where I live is very different from the
| other side of the ocean, but... why is money such a big point in
| this article? I love my work and I'm decently paid and... I don't
| really want to be rich. With the given title, I would advocate
| for/stress on contentment rather than monetary richness.
| hnthr_w_y wrote:
| honestly, I want to be rich. I do make a decent living, but not
| enough to quit my job. At this rate I'll have to work until I'm
| 50 or 60, which is same as everyone else, so cry me a river,
| but even so, it would be nice to dedicate more time to hobby
| which at this rate I can at most dedicate a weekend to, but in
| practice it's a bit less because I have to go out with the wife
| and I have visit my family, etc. Most weeks I have a full day
| at most to pursue anything.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| From what i understand my life is very similar as yours. One
| out of 7 seems not too shabby though.
|
| Maybe a cliche but... my advice would be to try to get most
| out of each simple experience. Today my spouse and kid went
| for a long walk together with me... while I could have been
| doing woodworking. I _tried_ to teach the kid the joy of
| walking without having too much on his mind. I also started
| conversations with strangers while waiting in the ice cream
| queue. There's always something to learn from that. I guess
| you by now understand my advocating for contentment.
| kragen wrote:
| this afternoon i couldn't have been doing woodworking
| because i don't have woodworking tools. that's not just
| because i can't afford them; my apartment is not really big
| enough for a woodworking shop, and i worry that the wiring
| might catch fire if i tried to plug in a high-powered saw.
| i'm having a hard time being content, despite going on a
| walk with my wife this morning and having lots of lovely
| conversations with strangers over the last three days,
| because the rent is due in two weeks and i'm nervous about
| whether i'll have enough. ever since i got covid for the
| third time in april, at which point i couldn't get
| paxlovid, i don't remember things like i used to. (i
| suspect that with enough money i could have gotten
| paxlovid.) also, my aunt is going to die soon, and i don't
| have the money to visit her before that
|
| i really wish i'd spent more effort on making, _and saving_
| , money 20 years ago. i wouldn't want to spend my life on
| it, and no amount of money will keep me from dying, but
| right now i'm spending a lot of my life coping with the
| consequences of not having it
| kilpikaarna wrote:
| Sorry to hear that, hope things work out for you! I've
| enjoyed and appreciated your work!
| kragen wrote:
| thanks! i hope you continue to do so
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| Besides removing distractions, having more money raises the
| limits on what you can build before it needs to become self-
| sustaining. Retirement should be a consolation prize but not
| the entire goal.
| com2kid wrote:
| Because America has such a poor social safety net that it is
| very easy to go from well paid to homeless in just a few years.
|
| Accordingly, everyone is fighting to make enough money to not
| get fucked over during each of our cyclical "economic
| recessions". During each recession more and more people
| permanently fall into poverty and everyone who is left fights
| even harder to not be a victim the next time the economy goes
| south.
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| In place of money, you can equally substitute status, prestige,
| or power.
|
| When it comes to young people choosing careers in the US the
| money choice is more prominent.
| dxbydt wrote:
| I don't want to lead with the mean retort that people who say
| they don't care about money often don't have any, so let me
| give you the kinder version - I think you come from a place of
| immense privilege. Either born in a first world country, or
| born to well off parents or in a rich society.
|
| otoh, Where I come from , we have a proverb that's hard to
| translate but describes our misery quite accurately - "we don't
| even have enough water to wipe our anus after we poop".
|
| So that's why I seek wealth. Not because I'm not content, or
| stressed out or whatever. Because the people I was born with,
| my cousins, brothers, relatives - they are still digging
| ditches. I am no smarter than them perhaps, but because I chose
| to pay a little extra attention at academics, atleast I have
| some money to buy some water so I can wash my butt after I
| poop.
|
| Don't hate on people who want money. The world outside your
| tiny bubble is very, very poor.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I understand most of the world population is very poor.
|
| > Don't hate on people who want money.
|
| Why would I?
|
| > The world outside your tiny bubble is very, very poor.
|
| I have a hard time understanding this tiny bubble part. Both
| my parents came from poor farmer families. My father was a
| carpenter who maintained a tiny farm before and after his
| daytime job. My mother helped with that and took care of the
| children. My father saw the sea for the first time aged 65,
| though it is only 200km.
|
| I try to put things in perspective... I read the average
| water consumption per person per year in USA is on average
| 90000 litres. That is our yearly household consumption.
| codeforafrica wrote:
| I can confirm that more or less. A month ago I visited a
| village where a new groundwater well was just completed. Some
| of the people there have to walk miles to get to that well to
| fetch water. Every day. And if they had to pay for the water,
| they would struggle.
|
| Last week I took my kids and a friend to dinner. We spent
| about 50$. Not much for us for 4 people. But for quite a lot
| of locals we just blew a months earning or more in one
| evening. This income difference baffles me every time.
|
| Myself I am out of work for a year, and while I saved some
| money, if I don't find some remote work soon I'll have to
| pack my bags and move my whole family back to Europe to file
| for unemployment. But I am not complaining because at least I
| do have that option. The people here around me don't. So
| despite my situation I am still privileged.
| thayne wrote:
| Consider who the author is: a wealthy investor for whom money
| is obviously very important.
| asdf6969 wrote:
| > why is money such a big point in this article?
|
| There's no such thing as a reasonable quality of life on an
| average income anymore. People who don't prioritize money will
| live like poor students for the rest of their lives renting
| with roommates. They will never have a family, healthcare,
| hobbies, or respect from their community.
|
| Stop pretending that not prioritizing money is an option. It's
| incredibly condescending. In most parts of most developed
| countries you need at least a top 20% income just to live with
| dignity.
| jazzyb wrote:
| Granted: If you live in America, depending on your situation,
| you may need wealth or a good job to have access to decent
| healthcare.
|
| But, "They will never have a family... hobbies, or respect
| from their community." This is completely out of touch.
| Plenty of Americans in flyover country accomplish all of
| these on an average salary. Source: They're my neighbors.
| rr808 wrote:
| Same. I think PG and the bay area has been such a goldmine the
| last few decades most people in tech and VC driven by the
| rewards. Most people in American are somewhat more money driven
| than Europeans, but most are relatively content than the Bay
| Area population.
| ta_1138 wrote:
| In the culture where you live there are good chances you don't
| finish college with a couple hundred thousands dollars in debt,
| and getting a reasonable home near the place where you want to
| work doesn't cost a million dollars.
|
| On top of that, bad luck in America can be very expensive. the
| wrong illness can make living a low stress life difficult
|
| Therefore an American that sees a pile of debt in their future,
| the kind of career that can pay for that kind of debt, and
| therefore lead to just being reasonably content and
| independent, is not all that far from one where you end up in
| the neighborhood of being rich. It's definitely what happened
| to me: The difference between not having a lot of economic
| stress and 'oops, I could retire tomorrow' was about 5 years.
| euvin wrote:
| Can someone help me understand the first footnote?
|
| >[1] These examples show why it's a mistake to assume that
| economic inequality must be evidence of some kind of brokenness
| or unfairness. It's obvious that different people have different
| interests, and that some interests yield far more money than
| others, so how can it not be obvious that some people will end up
| much richer than others? In a world where some people like to
| write enterprise software and others like to make studio pottery,
| economic inequality is the natural outcome.
|
| Yes, clearly different passions lead to different industries
| which mean different economic outcomes.
|
| But when people talk about "fairness", it usually means quality
| of life right? The ability to afford good healthcare, high
| quality food, housing, security, providing for a family, social
| opportunities. How are we defining fairness?
|
| I have no idea of how to solve this or create the perfect utopia,
| btw. I'm just confused on the point of the footnote.
| Mahsaaden wrote:
| i think it's pretty clear what pg means. more useful products =
| more money = better outcomes in life. no one wants more pins
| and posters of some artist's OCs, they want software that helps
| the world and actually changes lives for the better. studio
| pottery won't do that.
| euvin wrote:
| To be clear, I like the idea of making something really
| useful and being rewarded from bettering other people's
| lives. I don't doubt that if you make something really useful
| for the world, you can gain a lot from it.
|
| But when people talk about fairness, (I assume) they're
| usually thinking about the successful scammers, predatory
| practices, people not contributing to the world yet profiting
| a lot from it. They may also think about "essential workers"
| who, in contrast, may live paycheck to paycheck.
|
| It becomes blurrier to me when I think about who "deserves"
| what.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I've written software that has had a _big_ impact, on a lot
| of lives. I 'm still doing it.
|
| I haven't been paid a dime for it, and I'm quite happy with
| that.
|
| I don't think PG, or any VCs would be at all interested in my
| work. They might like the work, itself, but it's not gonna
| make anyone rich.
| e9 wrote:
| Can you please share some more about what you've done.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Not in the public forum. The very last thing our service
| needs, is thousands of curious geeks, signing up
| throwaways.
|
| If you really want, you can figure it out, from my GH
| page, or send me a message.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| I hear a lot of focus on money and not just quality of life.
| One issue with quality of life is that as you improve it for
| the bottom, the expecations of what a minimal quality should be
| tend to go up. So you may never really "solve" it, but that
| doesn't mean we shouldn't be continually trying to improve.
| kpw94 wrote:
| > But when people talk about "fairness", it usually means
| quality of life right?
|
| Seems you're focusing on the Floor whereas pg refers to a
| Ceilings?
|
| It's normal that enterprise sales lovers ends up as taller
| poppies than pottery lovers. You could take it a step further
| and say: it's normal than Tom Brady and Ronaldo ends up rich
| but mediocre football players make $0 from football, even
| though both have interest in football.
|
| That's the typical Ikigai diagram stuff: if someone's "what you
| love" naturally aligns with "what you can be paid for", pg
| point is that this person will be richer. (On top of this, if
| someone's "what you're good at" also aligns naturally with
| "what you can be paid for", they'll also be richer).
|
| But you're approaching a different question: do pottery lovers
| have a good enough quality of life? Do they deserve one if
| nobody needs any of their pottery stuff?
|
| Does everyone's deserve a good quality of life regardless of
| what their passion is? What about people with antisocial
| passions (crime, exploiting others etc)?
| euvin wrote:
| I think you make a really good point at the end, that those
| with antisocial and pathological passions shouldn't be
| encouraged for the sake of societal health. They can really
| make a huge profit if done in a certain way, right?
| Exploiting others like using dark patterns or scams
| definitely can reap huge rewards.
|
| As a layman, I'm curious to know what you and others think
| about what standards should be held to meet the floor, what
| standards should be held to reach the ceiling.
| wnc3141 wrote:
| It's good to know people crawling themselves out of poverty
| just lack the right hobbies
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| I know you're being sarcastic, but there is truth to that.
| Without judgement, it is well-documented that those in
| poverty will spend, as a proportion of their income, 20 or 30
| times as much on lottery tickets as someone who is rich. Now
| they have their reasons, I think a lottery ticket lets one
| dream what life could be like, at least until the draw
| happens, but the truth is their financial situation could be
| much better if they chose a different hobby.
| 1659447091 wrote:
| > but the truth is their financial situation could be much
| better if they chose a different hobby.
|
| Is this the new "Millennials would be able to buy a house
| if they would stop buying a $3.50 coffee"?
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| No, of course not. Obviously if a poor person spends up
| to 5% [0] of their income on lottery tickets that will
| have no impact on their financial situation at all.
| There's no way that changing that behavior could improve
| their life; 5% is just too small to matter.
|
| [0] https://fortune.com/2024/04/04/lottery-tickets-poor-
| rich-inc...
| 1659447091 wrote:
| From my experience*, the lottery tickets they buy most
| are scratch-off. And every once in awhile they spend $2
| and win $15-$20 (or $13-$18) then use that to buy
| "luxury" items; cigarettes, beer, candy for the kids or
| tacos from a taqueria or were able to make an extra lay-
| away payment. They still (I assume) end up losing more in
| the long run, but instead of saving that $2 a few times
| week to be able to have the $20 at the end of the month,
| they get a little bit of enjoyment from a crap situation.
| It's more rewarding to be able to get the items they were
| not planning to have and a little treat, as opposed to
| the sheer depression of thinking, if they saved that $2-8
| a week, then in a month they can buy treats for their
| kids...
|
| *Part of my childhood was living "on the other side of
| the tracks", my family wasn't rich, but we had more than
| many I went to school with. A much richer school district
| lines split the neighborhood - I wasn't on that side.
| Many kids at my school probably were in the poorest
| zipcodes. Most of them were on food-stamps and free-
| lunch, working parents (or parent); they didn't spend
| frivolously, goodwill, swap meets and garage sales is
| where their clothes came from. My direct experience was
| w/ couple families I spent time with and saw the result
| of winning scratch offs. That was when they would splurge
| on "luxuries". It was not about striking it rich and
| fantastical dreams of yachts; It was probably that
| experience which taught me the most about being practical
| and how to stretch a dollar.
| consteval wrote:
| Hobbies is probably not the right word, rather it's what
| they're good at. It just so happens that building a hobby
| makes you good at something.
|
| And this isn't necessarily in your control either. If you
| grow up on a farm you'll probably be very good at farming. If
| you grow up rich, you'll probably be great at networking and
| maybe sales.
|
| Some topics, domains, whatever make a lot of money and then a
| lot don't. If you're good at physical stuff then you're kind
| of fucked from a societal perspective. You chose wrong, or
| more likely got dealt a bad hand.
|
| If you're good at writing computer programs you got
| incredibly lucky. That's one of those topics that makes a lot
| of money.
|
| Some of this you can build and some you can't. My sister
| would never be a programmer because she hates it. But she
| loves kids, and she's a fantastic teacher. Unfortunately,
| teaching is a topic that doesn't lend itself to high pay. So
| that kind of sucks.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Also I bet there is extreme income inequality among studio
| potters. Could even be more unequal than the overall
| population.
| underlipton wrote:
| >and that some interests yield far more money than others
|
| Okay. Why?
|
| This is presented as an axiom, but it isn't.
| lechatonnoir wrote:
| Do you mean to suggest that this isn't true or that we should
| question the reasons that it happens to be true, and possibly
| change them?
| seabombs wrote:
| > In a world where some people like to write enterprise
| software
|
| Come on now...
| voidhorse wrote:
| There's really not much to understand. He's pointing out an
| inherent flaw in capitalistic structure (that the market
| disproportionately awards some labor over others, leading to
| gross imbalances and to runaway problems like climate change)
| and trying to convert what would be a legitimate critique of
| such a system (i.e. it seems bad that this economic system is
| structured in such a way that the _social_ values we have are
| secondary to individual economics) into a character judgement
| "well, it's not my fault you happen to have the poor people
| hobbies lol!"
|
| It's the sort of dodge that's extremely typical of people who
| have gotten extremely lucky and benefited heavily from this
| economic system. If pg wound up taking up painting more heavily
| instead of programming as his primary means of subsistence, I
| damn well guarantee he wouldn't be reducing economic imbalance
| to a "natural consequence" of mere "difference of hobbies"
| f3dora wrote:
| new twist on capitalist pitch: "There are even some people who
| have a genuine intellectual interest in making money. This is
| distinct from mere greed. They just can't help noticing when
| something is mispriced, and can't help doing something about it.
| It's like a puzzle for them."
|
| the older Paul gets, he sounds just like rest of his club mates!
| shafyy wrote:
| The mask is coming off
| ponector wrote:
| Better that way than usual startup bullshit about changing the
| world to a better place.
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| I'm someone who is not rich but is interested in capital
| markets. My net worth is less than USD 100,000 and I spend
| hours each week downloading market data, looking for trade
| ideas, writing scripts, running statistical tests, implementing
| trading strategies, and analyzing the results.
|
| I expect to be quite well off someday as a result of this
| hobby, but for now it's just an interest.
| smokel wrote:
| From an investors perspective looking at a group of people with
| randomly distributed interests, it seems like great advice to
| motivate each and every one of them to pursue their interest with
| all their energy and waste their lives on it. Some might get
| lucky and make the world a better place.
|
| From the perspective of an individual who only gets assigned one
| or a few subjects to be interested in, not knowing whether these
| will bring fortune or not, not so useful advice. Chances are that
| you will fail, lose money and friends, and forget to spend time
| with your loved ones.
| shafyy wrote:
| I gladens me to see that the sentiment here on HN is getting
| increasingly critical of PG and other VCs and Silicon Valley
| figures. Let's just hope that PG doesn't decide to pull the plug
| on HN some day.
| smokel wrote:
| Aren't we the court jesters who entertain them with our wit, or
| the court scientists who provide them with early insights into
| which technologies will be worth investing in?
| voidhorse wrote:
| Too accurate.
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| > you don't know what makes you happy, what the various kinds of
| work are really like, or how well you could do them
|
| A very succinct explanation of complex emotional challenge.
| ergonaught wrote:
| If you aren't young, you aren't worth Paul taking a moment to
| write a sentence about you, though, so go to hell.
|
| Apparently.
| yayitswei wrote:
| He's targeting a particular audience in this essay. Doesn't
| mean he hates everyone else. In fact, in other essays he says
| that being an older founder can actually be an advantage in
| some ways.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| When friends say they are "going to start a business", I ask them
| "Why? Do you know why, do you know what your goal is?".
|
| In most cases people can't really explain exactly why, and that's
| fine and normal. Only after years of being in business did
| certain things come clear to me. Are you there to make money, to
| follow your passion, to succeed with something, anything, to own
| your own time and life? The naive might say "all of the above",
| but they are not compatible.
|
| You may find that you care more about owning your own time than
| working on stuff you are passionate about.
|
| I've seen quite a few people start a business to work on
| something they are passionate about and then go out of business,
| when they COULD have stayed in business if they had been prepared
| to make money doing stuff they didn't love. What is more
| important in this case, being in business or doing stuff you
| love?
| cushychicken wrote:
| _Don 't wait. Don't wait till the end of college to figure out
| what to work on. Don't even wait for internships during college.
| You don't necessarily need a job doing x in order to work on x;
| often you can just start doing it in some form yourself._
|
| What silly advice. I didn't even know my "what to work on"
| existed until I was near the end of my junior year of college. XD
| euvin wrote:
| I took that phrase to mean "don't be blocked by any
| institution, person, or societal expectation to pursue what's
| interesting to you". Could be casual research, a cursory
| glance, or a deep internal investigation of yourself.
|
| Which is always good to start as soon as you're aware of it.
| It's fine if you figure it out near the end of your junior
| year, your first job, or a midlife crisis. "Best time to start
| was yesterday, 2nd best is now" type of thing.
| abhaynayar wrote:
| > One useful trick for judging different kinds of work is to look
| at who your colleagues will be. You'll become like whoever you
| work with. Do you want to become like these people?
|
| Reminded me of this gem: https://moxie.org/2013/01/07/career-
| advice.html
| hypertexthero wrote:
| And this interview at Slashdot:
|
| > Please, don't spend your late teens or early twenties in
| front of your computer at a startup. If you're a young person,
| I think the very best thing you could do is get together with a
| group of friends and commit to a one year experiment in which
| the substantial part of your life will be focused on discovery
| and not be dedicated to wage work - however that looks for you.
| Get an instrument, learn three chords, and go on tour; find a
| derelict boat and cross an ocean; hitchhike to Alaska; build a
| fleet of dirigibles; construct a UAV that will engage with the
| emerging local police UAVs; whatever - but make it count.
|
| -- Moxie Marlinspike
| https://interviews.slashdot.org/story/11/12/19/179256/moxie-...
| _dark_matter_ wrote:
| We don't deserve Moxie. What an inspiration
| Alacart wrote:
| While I agree that would be great for many people, how are
| 99% of young people supposed to survive during this time? How
| do they pay their rent, buy groceries, and pay for these
| explorations without wage work?
| hypertexthero wrote:
| They can't.
|
| Need to have the day job and try to do something in the
| night, or vice versa.
|
| We need a basic income.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=basic+income
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Be born to rich parents, win the lottery, dumpster dive,
| live on the boat/aircraft?
| Mistletoe wrote:
| A friend of mine from New Mexico calls them Trustafarians,
| where they exist in droves.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| Aw fuck. well at least I made a bunch of money I guess
| tightbookkeeper wrote:
| The time for discovery is childhood. As the trend is to
| extend adolescence more and more, maybe we need to cut back
| on regimented schooling during that time.
| inputorigin wrote:
| This is gold: it resonates a lot with my own experience and of
| those around me. Thanks for sharing. Looks like it was
| published right when I graduated, sad I missed it. Though I did
| end up doing some of the things on his list, and they were by
| far some of the most meaningful periods of my life.
|
| If you have anything else like this article, please do share
| titanomachy wrote:
| This made me feel some despair. The young people in my field
| are similar to me, and have interests and passions outside of
| work, but the older folks seem to have little in their lives
| which is enviable to me. Many of them are out of shape and
| hunched over from decades in front of their screens. They don't
| have strong interests in anything, and they seem to spend a lot
| of their time and energy thinking about their money: how to
| spend it, how to grow it, how to save it. They have families,
| but seem to view them as an obligation and a burden which
| they'd rather avoid.
|
| I do know older people who retired from tech relatively early
| and live adventurous and inspiring lives. Maybe the key is just
| to get out before the career saps your vitality too much.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Not having kids makes early retirement and an adventurous
| life much more practical. With enough money I suppose you
| could try both at the same time?
| titanomachy wrote:
| Try both what, kids and early retirement?
|
| I think it could be done, especially if you're willing to
| relocate somewhere with reasonably low cost of living.
|
| More realistically, I think I'll try to scale back work
| significantly if/when I have kids rather than fully
| retiring. Maybe part-time consulting.
| geomark wrote:
| Have kids later. After early retirement if you can.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| I don't recommend having kids in ones mid 30s or later.
| It's been quite difficult for us. YMMV.
| pchristensen wrote:
| There are definite, unambiguous downsides to having kids
| when you're older.
| nickd2001 wrote:
| This is sad. My advice, as an older person, is find a job
| that doesn't suck, or even is actually fulfilling. Public
| sector did that for me. Some weeks will drain you, that's
| what we get paid for, it just needs to be, not all the time
| :) Then early retirement is less "necessary". This is
| perfectly compatible with kids (albeit not in a high cost of
| living area). While kids are young, adventures will be put on
| hold to some extent, but then having kids and watching them
| grow up is a delightful adventure in itself :) And you get to
| share adventures with them later on. I'm glad I travelled and
| stuff when young, but seeing others without kids, their life
| seems a bit boring and same-y to me, but that's a personal
| thing. Important to some to have kids, important to others
| not to have them. Those "ground down" people you describe
| probably need a decent holiday to recharge, they also may
| need to think outside the box , get off the treadmill and
| realise that chasing promotions and money is a trap, and in
| fact a middle-of-the-road tech salary combined with some
| intelligent frugal habits gives a great standard of living
| despite today's brutal house prices etc. (only caveat - in
| USA health costs can be major problem for people with certain
| conditions)
| Mistletoe wrote:
| That is a world class article, thanks for sharing it. Saving to
| share with anyone in the future that needs advice.
|
| >They are the future you. Do not think that you will be
| substantially different. Look carefully at how they spend their
| time at work and outside of work, because this is also almost
| certainly how your life will look. It sounds obvious, but it's
| amazing how often young people imagine a different projection
| for themselves.
| NathanaelRea wrote:
| Hasn't the SPE been criticized as unscientific and basically
| fraudulent? Makes it hard to read this article if that's the
| main literature it cites to draw conclusions from.
| alexashka wrote:
| Work is what you do to keep society and your place in it going.
|
| Hence it's an intersection of what society needs and what you are
| capable of.
|
| The issue with modern degenerate society is that nobody'll tell
| you what society needs - you're supposed to figure it out through
| gossip.
|
| This is extremely stupid.
|
| People who write articles attempting to solve collective problems
| at an individual level are blaming the victim _and_ giving
| terrible advice without realizing it. So it goes.
| theGnuMe wrote:
| Well the reason is that nobody knows what society needs... or
| stated differently, what ends up being useful is non-obvious.
| So you can't plan it outside of some general parameters.
| asdf6969 wrote:
| Extremely out of touch and not useful at all. He needs to learn
| how to tell when he has something important to say and when he's
| just yapping. How can he think making just a little bit of money
| is even an option? I have a very high income and I still can't
| afford a home. I can't even imagine how terrible my life would be
| if I took risks.
| msvan wrote:
| This is because you chose to live an expensive life. Most of
| the world gets by on less.
| asdf6969 wrote:
| I spend around 25% of my income
| sph wrote:
| How much time do you spend following someone else's dream?
|
| Wealth is inconsequential if you spend 80 hours a week at a
| FAANG and have no time left for yourself, to plan a
| different life. The famous golden handcuffs.
| not-really-true wrote:
| That's not quite true though, you can get a pretty well
| paid job in FAANG adjacent that leaves you with enough
| free time too.
|
| Living in expensive areas has a lot of cons too, a social
| life for instance, which you don't really have in a rural
| area. If that's not important to you, great, seems like
| you have it all figured it out, live on a small income in
| the middle of nowhere, but not everybody's dream looks
| like this
| martindbp wrote:
| That's just cope. With that savings rate he can save for
| 10 years and spend the next 40 years doing his own thing.
| As long as you keep your standard of living the same.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| So you can retire in 7 years, right?
| https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-
| si...
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Most of the world also gets by on much more affordable
| housing too, though.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| > I have a very high income and I still can't afford a home
|
| This is only true if you limit your choices of homes to popular
| areas. Homes out in the country are usually easy to come by,
| especially with the salary of someone working in tech. Now, if
| you want to live in a big city, this is obviously not true, but
| this is arguably a livestyle choice to spend money, which you
| then need to earn [0]. If you love farming more than anything,
| moving to flyover country and make your living doing that is
| entirely possible, which is the point PG is making.
|
| [0] I don't mean to say that the housing bubble is not a bad
| situation, but this does not invalidate the argument.
| asdf6969 wrote:
| > If you love farming more than anything, moving to flyover
| country and make your living doing that is entirely possible
|
| Do you really believe this?
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Sadly, probably. My family did two years of farming as
| amateurs between jobs when I was a preteen. It stunted my
| height and caused decades of chronic pain for my parents.
| And we didn't make enough to live on
| Sebb767 wrote:
| I actually know this. I personally know a few people who do
| accept major financial restraint in exchange for pursuing
| their passion.
|
| To be fair, I'm from Europe, so I can't personally verify
| whether this still works in the US or if the stories I've
| heard were false, but this does at least provide a
| counterpoint to this not being possible in western
| countries.
| packetlost wrote:
| I have family that does this in WI. It's viable, but hard
| work.
| bluGill wrote:
| Farmers tend to have very high net worths and very low
| disposable income until they get old. You need several
| million dollars worth of land just to make the payments on
| that land/equipment and have enough left over to live on.
| And of course there are years where you will lose money and
| so you need to figure out how to ride that out. Then in 30
| years you make the last payment on the land and suddenly
| what was just barely enough money to live on is a massive
| income and you are extremely wealthy.
|
| I work in flyover country. I'm not a farmer my self, but
| several of my co workers are - they farm 100 acres of land
| after work, and it generates just enough money to make the
| payments land payments. They are looking to buy more land
| as soon as they can finance it (often leasing it to a
| neighbor to farm as they don't have time and so they lose
| money on the land). Their plan is in 15-20 years inflation
| will have made crops more valuable while the land payments
| are the same and so they can afford to quit the day job and
| farm all their land.
|
| Getting started is the hard part. Getting two million
| dollar loan for 100 acres of prime farmland when you are
| not already a farmer is hard. Many farmers thus start with
| livestock, you can start on 10 acres of non-prime farmland
| which is affordable and then over a few years build enough
| credibility with the bank to get that first large field
| which is where the money is.
| sevensor wrote:
| PG used to write interesting essays, like the recently reposted
| one about programs you can keep in your head. His later work
| suffers in my estimation from being too obviously motivated.
| He's trying to bend reality by convincing more kids to throw
| themselves into the startup furnace that fuels his wealth. "The
| very rich are no longer human" as William Gibson put it.
| randomopining wrote:
| Also sometimes when adults try to pull kids towards
| something, they may be trying to validate their own life
| choices and pathway. Just like a parent getting his kid into
| football, always remembering that he lost the playoff game.
| segmondy wrote:
| He's no longer writing from practical experience.
| safety1st wrote:
| It's not a bad article, and right now there's a lot of hand-
| wringing in the comments by people who in all frankness
| probably just don't have the balls to pursue their passion.
|
| Pretty early in my career I decided that the future of a tech
| bro at a FAANG was not for me so I quit. For one thing I saw
| that the men who were 10-20 years ahead of me on that track
| didn't actually have great personal lives. For another Big Tech
| was rapidly morphing into a net negative for humanity and I was
| sick of enabling it.
|
| I knew I wanted to work with open source because it was
| ethically superior but didn't know exactly what or how.
|
| It led initially to several years of wandering the world as a
| digital nomad and freelancing to pay the bills.
|
| In the long run I started a bootstrapped open source company,
| now have about 12 people on payroll, and am 15 years
| expatriated and living in a country that I'm way way happier in
| with plenty of money and the markers of what people consider
| "success."
|
| It also required me to do many many things that I didn't want
| to do or never thought I would do, a great example is learning
| how to sell things effectively, because initially if I didn't,
| I wouldn't eat. Then later, because it was the difference
| between just getting by and becoming rich.
|
| It is completely possible to live your passion while being
| successful. To do it you have to temper your passion with
| realism. You cannot lie to yourself about what the world wants
| from you nor can you ever use it as an excuse for inaction.
|
| Passion requires sacrifice, it's choosing A over B repeatedly,
| this is its definition. It certainly does mean that you might
| have to move, or make compromises in other areas of your life.
|
| But if you're at the stage where you're still single and
| childless, and you're light years away from your passion
| because of money - frankly I think you're just a pussy. You
| have more freedom at that stage of life than any other. If
| you're doing something you don't care for, you have nothing to
| lose by blowing it to smithereens.
|
| Or you can go on bitching about it on social media, like 95% of
| people do, and getting deeply involved in reasons that your
| dissatisfaction is someone else's fault. Look at older people
| who stayed in a situation they hated because that was where
| inertia and a lack of balls kept them. Get to know them. If you
| want their life to be yours soon enough then keep on doing what
| you're doing.
| jjxw wrote:
| I think it's great that you had the conviction and risk
| taking appetite to find success and in retrospect be able to
| say it was the "right" choice for you. I also think there's
| some great advice in there about benchmarking the road that
| you're headed down and asking yourself if it is the right
| road for you.
|
| However, I think this comment veers off into a tone that, for
| me, is a bit judgmental and prescriptive. Even out of the
| group of people who are single and childless people have
| different life situations, people have different risk
| tolerances, and there's not a one size fit all solution to
| quitting your job and chasing your passion for everyone. Not
| to mention unfortunately some people sacrifice a lot in
| pursuit of what they want and end up with nothing or very
| little to show for it in the end.
|
| Again I think your comment comes from a good place and
| there's some useful advice here, but the unnecessary name
| calling is a bit of a turn off at least for me and overall
| reduces the effectiveness of communicating your advice.
| safety1st wrote:
| That's a very patient and balanced response, which I
| appreciate!
|
| I think that in the last few years Hacker News and Reddit
| have made me super jaded and that's why I communicated like
| this - I responded to a comment that was brief and amounted
| to a rich guy bitching that he can't afford a house.
|
| It feels like these forums are filled with an endless
| stream of people who either don't work that hard or don't
| know how to manage their money, complaining about how the
| system is rigged against them.
|
| That complaint is fucking dumb. I'm sorry, but "I'm rich
| but I can't afford to buy a house or take a risk pursuing
| my passion," is just a dumb take and not a real problem.
| For those of us who started out life on food stamps, and
| yet did also grow up in a house, it's kind of an offensive
| take, in fact. I can't imagine a worse possible excuse for
| not taking some risks in life -- like this is not someone
| who has a fire under their ass because they've realized
| they need to get out of the ghetto, that's for sure. Their
| problems don't sound serious yet here they are bitching.
|
| Are you really sure the soft and considerate communication
| style is what people like this need? Maybe there are some
| out there who are a little too comfortable and just need to
| get whacked on the head.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| While I'm at it, if I could use my free will to be less
| of a "pussy" why do you use yours to continue being a
| huge dick?
| jjxw wrote:
| I think it depends on the audience. I have some closer
| friends that I would be comfortable taking a more
| aggressive communication style because they know my
| intent is to help them and sometimes people do need
| someone to shock them into making a change.
|
| For internet strangers, at least in my experience, I
| think putting people on defensive footing through more
| aggressive language makes it more difficult to get your
| point across to most folks. Your goal, however, might be
| to talk to a group out there that does respond to a more
| "tough love" angle.
|
| I do find it can make productive discussion with those
| who are going to perceive the language as insulting more
| difficult if not impossible. Just something to keep in
| mind depending on your communication goals.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| In my case it's not balls, it's probably autism. I hate
| traveling because I'm very picky about food
|
| > frankly I think you're just a pussy
|
| Go to hell and ask yourself how free will exists if someone
| freely chooses to not exercise their free will. something is
| inconsistent in your thinking
| safety1st wrote:
| I had Tourette's symptoms as a kid - motor and vocal tics.
| They were relatively mild, but serious enough that I had
| the shit kicked out of me on more than one occasion because
| I was that weird little kid who kept on twitching and
| grunting. They got better as I aged but to this day if I'm
| under stress or sleep deprived they start to creep back in.
| Sometimes, people still notice.
|
| After being beaten up multiple times I devised a way to
| lessen them: when they started I would tap my tongue
| rhythmically against the back of my teeth in a clockwise
| pattern. This satisfied the compulsion to perform the other
| tics, at least somewhat. Enough to stop me getting knocked
| down by other kids.
|
| What I did not ever do, at any point, was use this as an
| excuse for any failure of any kind. It was my problem and I
| dealt with it and I moved on to the next 10,000 problems.
|
| I figured out how to get on with my life. Sounds like what
| you have done is medicalized your problem and used it as an
| excuse for your failures. I could not care less whether you
| love or hate me and I will forget this conversation even
| happened in a day or two. But I will tell you now as a
| statement of fact that your life will be better if you
| solve your problems instead of finding excuses for living
| with them. Weakness is detestable and it brings with it
| only misery.
| lacker wrote:
| _I have a very high income and I still can't afford a home. I
| can't even imagine how terrible my life would be if I took
| risks._
|
| Forget the PG essay. Doesn't it seem like there's something
| wrong here, something you're missing, some way in which your
| own feelings about your own life are too negative, perhaps like
| you're emotionally harder on yourself than you deserve?
| martindbp wrote:
| Would love to know the details of their situation. I'm
| guessing this is a case of hedonic treadmill and keeping up
| with the Joneses, or just generally extremely high
| expectations. And even if you have a high income that doesn't
| mean you can have everything you want right away.
| sfpotter wrote:
| A "high income" is relative. They might actually have a
| well-calibrated expectation for what "high" means based on
| being close to people who _don 't_ have high incomes---that
| is, being in the top 25% should be high by any measure, but
| in plenty of US cities, even being in the top 25% is no
| guarantee that you'll be able to afford a mortgage _as well
| as_ other very important expenses like childcare, paying
| off student loan debt, caring for extended family, etc,
| etc. You could look at a situation like this and tell
| someone to "just change something" or be patient, but the
| reality is simply much more complicated. People who are
| struggling to deal with these scenarios are the ones who
| are best equipped to assess them, not people looking in
| from the outside.
| will-burner wrote:
| I can't tell if this is a serious comment or a joke. Tons of
| people make "a little bit of money" and mange to get by and are
| even happy.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Please if you are young and still in full-time education and
| reading this, please please please take it with a pinch of salt.
|
| What you are reading is essentially a sales-pitch trying to lure
| you in. This has the tell-tale signs of classic hard sales
| pitches - playing on the fear of losing out, offering big
| rewards, comparing to a negative stereotypes, appealing to your
| ego/self-worth about not being ignorant, flattery by dismissing
| it as not greed but an intellectual puzzle for smart people like
| you etc etc. Your internal alarm bells that stop you getting
| suckered into things should be going crazy about now!
|
| He has a vested interest in getting as many people as possible to
| throw themselves and their lives 110% into doing a start-up so
| that he can invest in it and make money off of _your_ work.
|
| For every successful billionaire (or hell even millionaire) that
| comes out of his "sales funnel", there will be hundreds if not
| thousands of people whose full-potential/career-
| potential/earning-potential will be severely curtailed as a
| result. They'll waste many of their most productive years,
| potentially building up massive debts in the process, chasing
| some start-up dream before eventually capitulating and failing
| before trying to get a "steady job" when they find themselves
| burnt-out and debt-ridden with nothing to show for it after 5-10
| years of slog.
|
| Meanwhile 5-10 years at a FAANG you would have pocketed several
| million in total-comp (probably in the region of 5+mil USD in the
| bay area I guess), working in low-stress environments with some
| of the best engineers, researchers, PMs, and leaders in the world
| while still having time and energy to live your life too.
|
| It is a numbers game for him. Think carefully about what you are
| getting into before throwing your future life away. Good luck.
| tippytippytango wrote:
| Passion is too generic of a word and that gets confusing when it
| comes to advice like this. It could be someone is passionate
| about the activity itself, passionate about the idea of being
| successful, obsessed intellectually with a question, passionate
| about wanting to prove something...
| hypertexthero wrote:
| Also worth thinking about whether you _want_ to be in the bridge
| of a ship with lots of other people on board, prefer working in a
| different deck like Engineering, or flying your own light shuttle
| craft about!
|
| From a commencement speech by a young person called Grant
| Sanderson:
|
| > Influence is not distributed uniformly in the population and I
| for one would feel a lot more comfortable if it was you who were
| at the helm guiding this crazy ship that we're all riding.
|
| > If you step into the next chapter of life with an implacable
| focus on adding values to others, you're more likely to be the
| ones at the helm.
|
| > If you recognize that action precedes motivation, you're more
| likely to be at the helm.
|
| > And if you ask what's possible now that wasn't 10 years ago,
| you're more likely to be at the helm.
|
| > If you appreciate just how much power you have to shape the
| lives of the generation that follows you, you're more likely to
| be at the helm.
|
| > And if you remain adaptable to a changing world, treating
| passion not as a destination but as a fuel, following not dreams
| but opportunities, you're more likely to be at the helm.
|
| -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3I3kAg2J7w
|
| -- https://www.3blue1brown.com/about
| jll29 wrote:
| When you work for money, you'd rather do something else, and you
| aspire to save up enough so that you can stop and do something
| else.
|
| When you love your work, it doesn't feel like work, and you don't
| want to stop.
|
| (having said this, I know some people who started out wanting
| money in order to do something useful with it later, however now
| they are so hooked to optimize their income more and more --
| money has become their main driver and primary motivation.)
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| >you have to choose between working on what interests you the
| most and something else
|
| I think this is where most people are and it can be common for
| all effort to amount to nothing more than "survival activities",
| with fewer options than normal occurring under increasing macro
| economic challenges.
|
| In that case I would think it's good to never completely stop
| doing what you love most that is realistically within reach. Even
| if you can not give it very much of the full dedication it might
| deserve.
|
| If you can't be fully "in the game" due to insufficient resources
| or something like that, maybe you can function somewhat adjacent
| in an even more sustainable way, maintaining better readiness
| through time for some rare opportunities that are almost never
| attainable, or for very long.
|
| And keep it in perspective for opportunities to up the priority
| or focus, even as less-elusive things might come more easily
| within reach along the way.
| pncnmnp wrote:
| Maybe it's the youth in me, but I wholly and fully agree with PG
| here, and I strive to live by it. However, there's another
| fascinating school of thought that I read about back when I was
| an undergrad. It comes from Richard Muller, who used to be quite
| active on Quora back in the day:
|
| > "Follow your passion" or the similar "Follow your dreams." I've
| seen this advice lead people into paths in which they could not
| have productive lives or support themselves or families.
|
| > With this advice, many kids will choose to become professional
| athletes, and then fail. My daughter (Elizabeth Muller) once
| wanted to become a professional dancer. I think she is very glad
| now that she instead went to UC San Diego, majored in math and
| literature, and got a masters degree in international management.
| (She is now the CEO of our non-profit BerkeleyEarth.org.) One of
| her friends, in contrast, decided to become a professional
| bicycle racer (encouraged by her parents) and she now supports
| herself by selling and repairing bicycles. Nothing wrong with
| that, but I don't think it was what she envisioned when she took
| this career path.
|
| > I suggest to children that before they set out on a career
| path, they consider what will happen if they are the 1000th best
| in the field. If your field is boxing, you will either be
| completely out of work, be a sparring partner, or (if you are
| lucky) be running your own gym. (Or, maybe, you'll be an enforcer
| for some mob.) If you are a ballet dancer, it is unlikely that
| you will be performing; you will probably be teaching children
| how to dance ballet. If your field is physics or math, you will
| have very good income, have the respect of your neighbors (maybe
| they'll think you are a genius), and a good diverse and
| productive life.
|
| > I suggest instead that you teach children to try to plan their
| future lives, to design their futures. They should approach it as
| they would a challenging homework problem. Learn more about
| possible careers, and what they are like. Don't choose too early,
| since many careers (running Berkeley Earth?) are not obvious to a
| youngster. Get a broad education, and do a good job at it. Study
| hard and learn. Get familiar with the world. Beware of childhood
| passions; they are based on a limited experience, and may not be
| a good choice for a career.
|
| I'm not sure how to share the link to the post itself:
| https://www.quora.com/What-is-in-your-opinion-the-most-damag...
| titanomachy wrote:
| Bold to assume that someone managing daddy's nonprofit
| foundation is happier and more fulfilled than someone fixing
| and selling bikes for a living.
| geomark wrote:
| At a big electronics hardware company a group of us EEs would
| talk about our dream of owning a bike shop almost every day.
| nine_k wrote:
| Does a bike shop owner make comparable money to an EE in a
| large company? How about medical insurance for themselves
| and the family? As a bike shop owner, what do you do when a
| customer brings clearly a stolen bike?
|
| It's nice to theorize about an idyllic life if you only
| think about the idyllic surface of it, from inside of a
| less idyllic but better-off life.
| kelseydh wrote:
| It wouldn't surprise me if some bike shops are clearing
| over a million dollars in sales a year if they're good.
| jckahn wrote:
| Maybe in revenue? Nobody running a bike shop is rich.
| coolThingsFirst wrote:
| tldr: be young.
|
| why the hell arent you young!
|
| it's cool.
| joshdavham wrote:
| I love his point about following your passion if your passion is
| in a narrow niche (especially if it involves technology). Trying
| to be the best at something popular will probably lead to
| failure, but I think people would be surprised how easy it is to
| become top 100 at something niche.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I used to work for someone who won all the races in his age
| group because he was the only entrant in that age group.
| wayoverthecloud wrote:
| Does anyone who has successfully followed their passion project
| and has been financially successful as well provide some comments
| on this article? Is it just PG's way of luring in wannabe-
| enterpreneurs with words or does it hold some value? I am in no
| position to judge this since I am still working a day job.
| udev4096 wrote:
| > Bill gates
|
| A typical YC example. Why not take Dennis Ritchie or Ken Thompson
| or Brian Kernighan as an example?
| cchi_co wrote:
| When your goal is to make a modest or steady income, you often
| have to focus on what the market values. It's like a big luck
| when your interests align with market demand
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| Yeah. I feel like I've already used up all my luck getting a
| job where I can work on a computer indoors in air conditioning
| as a woman wearing jeans, and not have to dress up, present
| myself, hurt myself, risk my life, like so many other jobs
| nickd2001 wrote:
| Personally I feel that "Beating the averages" was an awesome
| article that was of technical interest and can apply to many
| things not just making money, and worth reading perhaps by every
| s/w developer. Whereas this article is of nothing like the same
| quality, it seems largely money oriented to me.
| calimoro78 wrote:
| This article assumes your passions are highly monetizable.
| will-burner wrote:
| This is something I think about a lot and I thought the article
| was pretty solid. My father is a musician, so he always told me
| to do what I love. I tried to do that by becoming a research
| mathematician, that didn't work on and now I do something I don't
| love (but like some days) that consists of sitting at a computer
| writing code.
|
| >One useful trick for judging different kinds of work is to look
| at who your colleagues will be. You'll become like whoever you
| work with. Do you want to become like these people?
|
| I've had 3 careers: working with high school students in low
| income areas, being an academic research mathematician, and now
| being a data scientist. The people I liked the best and who I
| would like to become like were the teachers I worked with at the
| high schools in low income areas.
|
| >Indeed, the difference in character between different kinds of
| work is magnified by the fact that everyone else is facing the
| same decisions as you. If you choose a kind of work mainly for
| how well it pays, you'll be surrounded by other people who chose
| it for the same reason, and that will make it even more soul-
| sucking than it seems from the outside. Whereas if you choose
| work you're genuinely interested in, you'll be surrounded mostly
| by other people who are genuinely interested in it, and that will
| make it extra inspiring.
|
| This pretty well states the soul-suckingness of working in
| industry.
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