[HN Gopher] Role of Deliberate Practice in the Development of Cr...
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Role of Deliberate Practice in the Development of Creativity (2014)
Author : JustinSkycak
Score : 145 points
Date : 2024-09-28 13:35 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (repositories.lib.utexas.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (repositories.lib.utexas.edu)
| smokel wrote:
| _> In order to assess the difference between deliberate practice
| habits between elite-level performers and moderate-level
| performers, it was also necessary to recruit moderate-level
| performers._
|
| Hehe :)
|
| Edit: Very interesting read, with nice examples of both
| successful and unsuccessful artists in various fields. One key
| trait in becoming successful seems to be willing to put in the
| effort. This in turn seems to only work if you actually _enjoy_
| putting in some effort. It makes one wonder if this can be a
| learned trait, or whether enjoying something is the _actual_
| (proxy) talent someone is born with.
| gchamonlive wrote:
| Simone Weil body of work about attention can serve as a good
| starting point in this case. It is an answer that complements
| the usual disciplinary approach to effort, where a different
| kind of relation with the subject is developed where the
| interaction with it starts to be less effortful and more
| natural.
|
| Take drawing for instance, which is something I practice
| actively. The act of putting effort in drawing is quite
| reductive as drawing is a broad area. Sure you can will
| yourself into drawing 100 faces and you will invariably be
| better at drawing faces, but it'll take you nowhere nearer
| being a more creative artist. But sometimes approaching drawing
| laterally, that is reaching to other techniques, subjects and
| skills (like shading, drawing lines, using pens and such...)
| might give you a broader set of tools that in turn will help
| increase the chances you will find something that catches your
| attention and absorbs you into it.
|
| Sure you can get lost in the generics with lateral thinking and
| never reach a level of masterery that might be necessary for
| you to grow as an artist, so that is why attention isn't a
| replacement for discipline. You need both. But bottomline is
| that you also need to develop a relation with the subject that
| will reduce resistances, increase satisfaction and make it more
| likely that you will get absorbed by the task at hand.
| hinkley wrote:
| At least some of my work is aversion.
|
| I'm doing this because it will save me from having to do that
| in the future, and I hate doing that.
| kumarvvr wrote:
| I always believed that while creativity can be developed through
| focus and practice, the _pace_ of learning varies from person to
| person. In general, creative people are highly intelligent, work
| with tremendous focus and are dedicated individuals.
| creer wrote:
| Perhaps. Other artists work in the very narrow direction THEY
| like and can manage technically - so of course they look like
| they have focus! Of course they look like they are dedicated to
| their art. But perhaps too it's the only thing they can do and
| they stumbled on something that has an audience. That does not
| mean they aren't amazing ... at that. That does not mean their
| art is not significant. That doesn't mean that their specific
| creativity is not worthy.
|
| It also doesn't mean that their creativity's mode of operation
| isn't totally irrelevant to some other person. Might be. Might
| not.
| Stem0037 wrote:
| While deliberate practice is undoubtedly crucial for developing
| creativity and expertise, I think there's an important nuance we
| often overlook - the role of diverse experiences and cross-
| pollination of ideas.
|
| Deliberate practice helps refine skills and deepen domain
| knowledge, but breakthrough creativity often comes from making
| unexpected connections between disparate fields. Some of
| history's most creative figures - like Leonardo da Vinci or
| Benjamin Franklin - were polymaths who excelled in multiple
| domains.
| rasengan wrote:
| This is why AI can in fact create things that haven't yet been.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| Sure, but so can pure randomness, for the same reason. It is
| creative in the literal sense, but not in the ineffable sense
| that humans tend to describe in humans.
| rasengan wrote:
| You're absolutely right - and to identify the creation
| within randomness is also a form of creativity. Not all
| humans create (and identify) with the same methodologies!
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| In hindsight, I wish I'd included the disclaimer that I
| have creative pursuits (of the ineffable variety) which
| _leverage_ creative tools in the more literal sense (not
| AI, not purely random either). I don't mean to disparage
| the entire class of machine-generated creation per se.
|
| But I do think that there is an important distinction
| between incorporating it in some form into a person's
| expression, versus being the whole of the expression.
| Even if that incorporation is mere curation, at least
| that imbues some semblance of meaning, to someone capable
| of experiencing meaning.
|
| And perhaps that's a snobbish perspective. Maybe it
| deserves reexamination.
| bbor wrote:
| Well put! Well, the first sentence is -- I think there's
| ample evidence that chatbots are creative in the same
| manner as humans, for the simple reason that they speak
| coherently. I'm sure we all remember pre-2023 chatbots,
| which were cute but ultimately produced gibberish; the
| current chatbots reach the same limits if given a hard
| enough task, which I think is fantastic evidence that they
| are ineffably creative before that limit.
|
| In Chomsky's words, quoting Wilhelm von Humboldt:
| Language is a process of free creation; its laws and
| principles are fixed, but the manner in which the
| principles of generation are used is free and infinitely
| varied. Even the interpretation and use of words involves a
| process of free creation. The normal use of language and
| the acquisition of language depend on what Humboldt calls
| the fixed form of language, a system of generative
| processes that is rooted in the nature of the human mind
| and constrains but does not determine the free creations of
| normal intelligence or, at a higher and more original
| level, of the great writer or thinker... The many
| modern critics who sense an inconsistency in the belief
| that free creation takes place within - presupposes, in
| fact - a system of constraints and governing principles are
| quite mistaken; unless, of course, they speak of
| "contradiction" in the loose and metaphoric sense of
| Schelling, when he writes that "without the contradiction
| of necessity and freedom not only philosophy but every
| nobler ambition of the spirit would sink to that death
| which is peculiar to those sciences in which that
| contradiction serves no function." Without this tension
| between necessity and freedom, rule and choice, there can
| be no creativity, no communication, no meaningful acts at
| all.
|
| - https://chomsky.info/language-and-freedom/
| creer wrote:
| Nothing wrong with randomness combined with "taste" in the
| hands of the creator. Which is exactly the plan with
| generative AI.
| soxletor wrote:
| I must not be using the right models because this is exactly
| what AI can not currently do IMO.
| Instantnoodl wrote:
| This! Most of my creativity in private projects stems from
| having build a broad space of knowledge/experiences. Having
| tinkered with a lot of different disconnected things really
| helps me find interesting bits to combine in a new and creative
| way that I never had imagined before :)
| mbivert wrote:
| > the role of diverse experiences and cross-pollination of
| ideas
|
| Add to this: giving room for ideas to grow: the more you wait,
| the more diverse and numerous the life experiences, all of them
| having the potential to shape those uncrystallized ideas.
| scrapcode wrote:
| Having someone around you who either intentionally or
| unintentionally creates an environment that makes you want to,
| and therefor enjoy putting in the effort, is crucial.
|
| I am just finishing up The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle [0] and it
| has been an interesting short read. In a nutshell, it boils
| talent down deep practice, ignition, and master coaching.
|
| [0] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5771014-the-talent-
| co...
| sbarre wrote:
| A good simple example: I don't like cooking alone.
|
| Cooking for my wife and me together? Love it..
| scrapcode wrote:
| Going deeper it can mean anything from having a person you
| want to impress, a parent that you just can't ever seem to
| make proud, or seeing someone succeed their way out of your
| impoverished upbringing.
| airstrike wrote:
| There are six human needs, they say: certainty, variety
| (uncertainty), significance, love, growth and contribution
|
| Cooking alone doesn't check the same boxes. It probably gives
| you only more "certainty" of being fed, but you're not
| craving more of that.
|
| Cooking for you and your wife probably gives you some
| significance (you like being appreciated for making a nice
| meal), love and a sense of contribution. Way more satisfying!
| taylorius wrote:
| I am a counter example that rule (though perhaps it is
| indirectly in agreement). I grew up alone, in the middle of the
| UK countryside without much regular contact with other kids. My
| inner monologue grew constant and loud - it acted like a
| companion, urging me to create things and ideas.
| kody wrote:
| Painfully accurate. Nothing is worse for me creatively when the
| work environment is paranoid, ass covering, disinterested in
| the work.
| hinkley wrote:
| Or one person has a monopoly on creativity.
| bbor wrote:
| A) love the overall thesis/focus. The key points seem solid.
|
| B) I'm not sure how scientific this is. "We looked for instances
| of deliberate practice and found some" seems more like self-help
| advice than rigorous sociology? Or... anthropology? It certainly
| isn't psychology, but funnily enough it doesn't actually say what
| degree this was for.
|
| C) The theory section needed a much more serious engagement with
| the philosophy discussed, rather than just taking 1-2 sources on
| each 800y period as gospel. Let's just say that not all Ancients
| thought nature was the peak of creativity, and that the doctrine
| of the Catholic Church wasn't the only thing going on 400-1600,
| even if we restrict the view to Europe. Also desperately needs
| more engagement with postmodern conceptions of creativity, given
| that they basically dominate many parts of the "fine art" world
| to this day!
| relaxing wrote:
| B- It was a Ph.D. in Advertising.
| bbor wrote:
| Thanks, was just coming back to edit that in! Should've known
| HN would get it faster.
|
| That does explain my negative reaction to the method -- if I
| had to pick a single archenemy among the modern academies,
| Advertising would likely win top billing! I mean, I just now
| learned that it exists at all, which doesn't help. I guess
| PhD's in Manipulation wouldn't look nearly as good on the
| mantle...
| metalman wrote:
| speaking from experience creativity is a condition and or
| compulsion often associated with basic functional deficits can it
| be channeled,directed,optimised,and comodified? sometimes for a
| while
| creer wrote:
| Yes! And it would be super useful if the rest of the population
| could benefit from insights extracted from "them". Currently
| humanity operates on creativity and other forms of knowledge
| work. There is a lot of value in "better creativity" or "more
| exploitable creativity".
| shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
| It will take some time to read the 129 pages before I come to any
| conclusion, but I can say one thing for sure, and those who know
| what deliberate practice is, will agree with me.
|
| Deliberate practice is a lonely process, which can only be
| accomplished with courage, dedication and grit whether you have a
| mentor/coach/master or not.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I think anyone that has undertaken an art form of any sort knows
| that it is all down to practice. There's just different levels of
| dedication. Charlie Parker famously was thrown out of a jam
| session in Kansas City as a teenager by Jo Jones (who threw a
| cymbal at him), and decided to spend the next 3-4 years
| practicing 12-15 hours per day. There's a retreat called chilla
| [1] that some South Asian musicians do which is 40 days of
| isolation and intensive practice. I saw a video of Mike Tyson
| helping train a young boxer recently and at the beginning he
| says: "You know, it has nothing to do with styles or size. It's
| all about the moral of the fighter. How important is it to you?
| Is it more important than breathing? Is it more important than
| eating? It's up to the individual."
|
| A great mentor is crucial too. I know for myself having my music
| teacher listen and force me to not move on from what I'm working
| on is necessary. Having my Muay Thai trainer throw down his pads
| and silently demonstrate what I need to embody is invaluable. My
| meditation teacher pointing out my misunderstandings. Etc.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilla_katna
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmJJK7Ac4Fk&t=20s
| creer wrote:
| A teacher might tell you "it's about brush mileage - and I have
| now told you all that matters".
|
| Dump that teacher. If it's all they could teach you, you are
| done with them.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Oh for sure, there's a difference between just putting in
| time and putting in effective time.
| swayvil wrote:
| Speaking as a creative monster, I never practiced. I learned to
| draw by drawing, program by programming etc. Always because I was
| into it. Never because I was into a dream of future mastery.
| smokel wrote:
| Practice on the job is still practice, no?
| zeptian wrote:
| These kind of studies are dubious. The PhD report could have been
| generated by an LLM in about a day, and no one would know any
| better.
|
| It works like this:
|
| Take any hypothesis. And have a lot of verbiage around it with
| dubious experiments to "statistically" validate it. and write a
| giant report which would eventually turn into a book.
|
| Steve Pinker and his likes excel in this kind of stuff.
| Psychology/Sociology and sometimes economics are filled with
| these sorts of studies.
|
| It is more persuation than science.
|
| And one could could argue that science itself is a certain kind
| of persuation.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| Your comment adds nothing to the discussion, reveals your
| prejudice against social science, and could be copied and
| pasted anytime a non-rigorous subject comes up. I'm actually
| interested in criticisms of this work, but your comment doesn't
| even rise to that level.
| zeptian wrote:
| guilty as charged !
|
| But Bohm's "On Creativity", to me presents a much deeper
| "philosophical" take on a) what is creativity and b) how to
| foster it. And I dont see it referenced in this text at all.
|
| Again, since this is about persuation, it is what the reader
| wants to believe.
| throwanem wrote:
| Comparative critique is far more persuasive than a series
| of baldly asserted and sweeping pejorations.
| creer wrote:
| There are (probably) several billion works on creativity.
| Just reading and listing your own sources of inspiration on
| creativity is quite the endheavor. And that is not going to
| be exhaustive even in a PhD thesis. I'll give leaway there
| - on the contrary, mine THEIR list for stuff I missed.
| zeptian wrote:
| fair take, but my view these days is the following.
|
| there is way too much information-garbage floating
| around.
|
| hence I try to stick to time-tested classics particularly
| when it comes to certain topics. now, your time-tested
| classic may be different from mine and certainly, i want
| to see if there are things I missed, and hence I
| mentioned Bohm's work, as something the author of this
| PhD missed.
| ysofunny wrote:
| I found that the line "science is a certain kind of
| persuassion" quite informative. I was not aware of such a
| skeptical thread of thought near science
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| The comment was edited after I commented, it was originally
| much less substantive, and is improved now.
| zeptian wrote:
| End of the day, there are many belief systems that we human
| hold onto, but we need a method to settle opinion.
|
| And science happens to be a certain kind of a method for
| settling opinion.
|
| CS Peirce wrote about it so beautifully in his 1877 essay:
| "On the fixation of belief". go read it. here is a link
| saving you a google search.
| https://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html
| randcraw wrote:
| It's helpful to know the dissertation hails from UTexas'
| department of advertising. In that context, 'creativity' is _not_
| about artists using imagination, cognition, and innovation to
| surprise or enlighten or edify. It 's about creating better spam.
| tough wrote:
| Creativity can and will be applied for the most horrendous
| destructive things.
|
| See: wars, arms, drugs.
|
| It's all on how you held those tools.
|
| I hate advertising too tho lol
| smokel wrote:
| That's a bit harsh. Note that studying advertising might differ
| significantly from practicing it. For all you know, there could
| be a PhD out there researching the moral implications of
| Facebook's advertising practices during the 2010s.
|
| I have actually read most of the dissertation today, and it
| sure is about the creativity you reject it to be about.
| creer wrote:
| The dissertation is about understanding how it works. You are
| then free to apply the learnings to anything you want or hate.
| hinkley wrote:
| I wonder how much intent and outcomes colors motivation.
|
| Probably need a similar study but with two different domains.
| creer wrote:
| It's unfortunately very hard to isolate creativity from many
| competing and interfering aspects. Is an artist creative or are
| they successful in a field where by tradition every piece must be
| different (say, music videos). Is an engineer creative because
| they live in a discipline of severe constraints (say, spacecraft
| at the edge of the possible). A known issue for artists is having
| a recognized body of work: many new clients now want some of THAT
| - and not the precursors of the next body of work, so the artist
| feels the pressure to produce more of THAT. Is creativity only
| recognized (and so, favored) when it's followed by success? What
| about mechanical aspects of creativity - like good executive
| skills / habits? How about helps from the environment:
| constraints are one, but also early viewers, managers, critiques,
| partners that are encouraging - in the right way. "Practice"?! In
| what? "Taste" is a known aspect with the recognition that it can
| be hard on newcomers who may already have "good taste" but not
| yet the technical, gestural skill to produce and meet that bar.
| Teachers (in all meanings) that make sense and are capable of
| explaining how they or others operate. And on and on.
|
| So I have been trying to focus on specific antagonists.
| Recognizing what forms of creativity matter to me; Solving for
| "block"; Solving for "time".
| fredgrott wrote:
| Creativity comes from focusing on small piece of deliberate
| practice...
|
| An example, ask any well known guitar player....their greatest
| rift came from practicing some chord progression and noticing
| something different about it...the rift from Sweet Child was
| discovered that way....
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| > Elite level performers use deliberate practice and credit hard
| work to their success instead of talent.
|
| > Mediocre performers don't use deliberate practice and credit
| talent to their success.
|
| The author then implies that deliberate practice and hard work
| are the key to success. But it could also be the case that elite
| level performers _are_ talented and they achieve success by
| exploiting that talent through hard work, while mediocre
| performers wouldn't achieve the same level of success even if
| they worked as hard.
| d_burfoot wrote:
| "[My parents and I] were enthralled by the same music, but it
| showed us different things. I listened to Slash's flamboyant,
| searching guitar solo on "November Rain" and heard liberation, a
| suggestion that crazed, committed vision could carry you away,
| somewhere else. To my parents, Slash's greatness was evidence of
| virtuoso skill, the product of thousands of hours of study and
| practice."
|
| - Hua Hsu, "Stay True: A Memoir"
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