[HN Gopher] If AI seems smarter, it's thanks to smarter human tr...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       If AI seems smarter, it's thanks to smarter human trainers
        
       Author : getwiththeprog
       Score  : 81 points
       Date   : 2024-09-28 13:28 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
        
       | GaggiX wrote:
       | Let's not ignore better architectures, training techniques and
       | computing power.
        
         | kaycebasques wrote:
         | Suppose you are competing to create the "best" frontier model
         | and have finite R&D budget to allocate into the 4 buckets (plus
         | a catchall in case we're missing something):
         | 
         | * Data
         | 
         | * Architecture
         | 
         | * Training techniques
         | 
         | * Compute
         | 
         | * Other
         | 
         | What allocation gives you the best chance for success? And how
         | are you defining "best"?
        
           | NitpickLawyer wrote:
           | Right now I'd prioritise compute over anything, because it
           | allows for more experiments, and some of those experiments
           | might turn out to be the key to better models (either
           | specific applications or overall generalist models).
           | 
           | Meta did this with L3. They used L2 to pre-filter the
           | training data, filtering out a lot of junk. They also used it
           | to classify datasets. Then after pre-training (involving lots
           | of compute) they also used almost exclusively synthetic data
           | for fine-tuning (forgoing RLHF when it was surpassed). So yet
           | more compute. The results are pretty good, L3, 3.1 and 3.2
           | are pretty high up there in terms of open access SotA.
           | 
           | oAI did this with their o1 models. They used lots of compute
           | to have the models go over the space of generating tokens,
           | analysing, correcting, and so on. They RLd the "reasoning
           | traces" in a way. Lots of compute. The results seem to be
           | pretty good, with impressive showings on "reasoning" tasks,
           | math, code, and so on.
           | 
           | The thing is, they weren't the first ones to propose these
           | techniques! What differentiates them is the available
           | compute.
           | 
           | WizardML tried and were really successful with their RLAIF
           | implementation (tho never released code afaik) about a year
           | ago. And while they were connected to MS research, they
           | probably didn't have as much compute available as Meta. But
           | the WizardML fine-tunes on open models like Mistral and
           | Mixtral were pretty much SotA when released, scoring way
           | higher than the creator's own fine-tunes.
           | 
           | In the same vein, but at lower scales is the team behind
           | DeepSeek. They used RL on math problems, in their
           | DeepSeekMath-7bRL model, and that model was SotA at the time
           | of release as well. It took a team of multiple really
           | talented folks to fine-tune a better model (in the AIMO
           | kaggle competition) and everyone except the 1st place used
           | the RL model. The 1st place used the base model, with
           | different fine-tuning. So again, the methods were tried, just
           | at much lower scales.
           | 
           | Yeah, I think compute would be my bet in the short run.
        
         | JCharante wrote:
         | using human feedback for reinforcement learning is a training
         | technique
        
         | ben_w wrote:
         | It's both. I recently saw a comparison of various models on two
         | IQ tests, one of which was public and the other of which was
         | carefully curated to be not directly learnable from the likely
         | training sets.
         | 
         | On public tests, LLMs vary between "just below average human"
         | and "genius".
         | 
         | On the hopefully-private test (it's difficult to be sure*), the
         | best was o1, which was "merely" just below an average human,
         | Claude-3 Opus which was stupid, and all the rest were "would
         | need a full time caretaker".
         | 
         | In both cases, the improvements to the models came with higher
         | scores; but there's still a lot you can do by learning for the
         | test -- and one thing that LLMs are definitely superhuman at is
         | that.
         | 
         | https://www.maximumtruth.org/p/massive-breakthrough-in-ai-in...
         | 
         | * I could have said the same last year about last year's
         | models, so I'm emphatically _not_ saying o1 really is as smart
         | as this test claims; I 'm _only_ saying this demonstrates these
         | IQ tests are a learnable skill up to at least this magnitude of
         | difference.
        
       | CamperBob2 wrote:
       | Which is fine. If all AI does is represent human knowledge in a
       | way that makes it explainable and transformable rather than
       | merely searchable, then the hype is justified... along with
       | Google's howling, terrified panic.
       | 
       | The role played by humans on the training side is of little
       | interest when considering the technology from a user's
       | perspective.
        
         | iwontberude wrote:
         | I think the most interesting aspect of it is the human
         | training. Human blindsides, dogma, ignorance, etc. All on
         | demand and faster than you can validate its accuracy or
         | utility. This is good.
        
           | CamperBob2 wrote:
           | Shrug... I don't know what anyone expected, once humans got
           | involved. Like all of us (and all of our tools), AI is
           | vulnerable to human flaws.
        
             | ddulaney wrote:
             | I think that's really important to reinforce! You probably
             | know better, but lots of the less technical people I talk
             | to don't think that way. It's not at all obvious to an
             | observer who doesn't know how this stuff works that a
             | computer could be racist or misogynist.
        
               | CamperBob2 wrote:
               | Yeah, I do think that's going to be a problem.
               | 
               | Years ago, my GF asked me why we bother with judges and
               | juries, given all the uneven sentencing practices and
               | other issues with the current legal system. "Why can't
               | the courts run on computers?" This was back in the pre-
               | Alpha Go era, so when I answered her, I focused on
               | technical reasons why Computers Can't Do That... reasons
               | that are all basically obsolete now, or soon will be.
               | 
               | The real answer lies in the original premise of her
               | question: because Humans Also Can't Do That with the
               | degree of accuracy and accountability that she was asking
               | for. Our laws simply aren't compatible with perfect
               | mechanized jurisprudence and enforcement. Code may be
               | law, but law isn't code.
               | 
               | That problem exists in a lot of areas where people will
               | be looking to AI to save us from our own faults. Again,
               | this has little to do with how training is conducted, or
               | how humans participate in it. Just getting the racism and
               | misogyny out of the training data isn't going to be
               | enough.
        
               | Terr_ wrote:
               | Also: It's not just about what task can/can't can't be
               | done, but what other frameworks you/can't build around
               | the executor to detect errors and handle exceptional
               | cases.
        
         | jumping_frog wrote:
         | The problem is my back and forth with Claude is just Claude's
         | data not available to any other. Unlike stack overflow which is
         | fair game for every AI.
        
       | Stem0037 wrote:
       | AI, at least in its current form, is not so much replacing human
       | expertise as it is augmenting and redistributing it.
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | Yep. And that's the real value add that is happening right now.
         | 
         | HN concentrates on the hype but ignores the massive growth in
         | startups that are applying commoditized foundational models to
         | specific domains and applications.
         | 
         | Early Stage investments are made with a 5-7 year timeline in
         | mind (either for later stage funding if successful or
         | acquisition if less successful).
         | 
         | People also seem to ignore the fact that foundational models
         | are on the verge of being commoditized over the next 5-7 years,
         | which decreases the overall power of foundational ML companies,
         | as applications become the key differentiator, and domain
         | experience is hard to build (look at how it took Google 15
         | years to finally get on track in the cloud computing world)
        
           | MostlyStable wrote:
           | I notice that a lot of people seem to only focus on the
           | things that AI _can 't_ do or the cases where it breaks, and
           | seem unwilling or incapable of focusing on things it _can_
           | do.
           | 
           | The reality is that both things are important. It is
           | necessary to know the limitations of AI (and keep up with
           | them as they change), to avoid getting yourself in trouble,
           | but if you ignore the things that AI can do (which are many,
           | and constantly increasing), you are leaving a ton of value on
           | the table.
        
             | alephnerd wrote:
             | Yep! Nuance is critical, and sadly it feels like nuance is
             | dying on HN.
        
             | aleph_minus_one wrote:
             | > I notice that a lot of people seem to only focus on the
             | things that AI _can 't_ do or the cases where it breaks,
             | and seem unwilling or incapable of focusing on things it
             | _can_ do.
             | 
             | I might be one of these people, but in my opinion, one
             | should not concentrate on things that it _can_ do, but for
             | how many of the things where an AI might be of help for
             | you,
             | 
             | - it does work
             | 
             | - it only "can" do it in a very broken way
             | 
             | - it can't do that
             | 
             | At least for the things that _I_ am interested in an AI
             | doing for me, the record is rather bad.
        
             | vladms wrote:
             | How do you define "can do" ? Would answering correctly 9
             | out of 10 questions correctly for a type of question (like
             | give directions knowing a map) mean it "can do" or that it
             | "can't do" ?
             | 
             | Considering it works for so many cases, I think it is
             | naturally to point out the examples where it does not work
             | - to better understand the limit.
             | 
             | Not to mention that practically, I did not see anything
             | proving that it will always "be able" to do something .
             | Yes, it works most of the times for many things, but it's
             | important to remember it can (randomly?) fail and we don't
             | seem to be able to fix that (humans do that too, but having
             | computers fail randomly is something new). Other software
             | lets say a numerical solver or a compiler, are more stable
             | and predictable (and if they don't work there is a clear
             | bug-fix that can be implemented).
        
           | Workaccount2 wrote:
           | ...and then being blown up when the AI company integrates
           | their idea.
        
             | alephnerd wrote:
             | Not exactly.
             | 
             | At least in the cybersecurity space, most startups have 3-5
             | year plans to build their own foundational models and/or
             | work with foundational model companies to not directly
             | compete with each other.
             | 
             | Furthermore, GTM is relationship and solution, and an
             | "everything" company has a difficult time sympathizing or
             | understanding GTM on a sector to sector basis.
             | 
             | Instead, the foundational ML companies like OpenAI have
             | worked to instead give seed/pre-seed funding to startups
             | applying foundational MLs per domain.
        
           | danielbln wrote:
           | Same with consultancy. There is a huge amount of automation
           | that can be done with current gen LLMs, as long as you keep
           | their shortcomings in mind. The "stochastic parrot" crowd
           | seems an over correction to the hype bros.
        
             | alephnerd wrote:
             | It's because the kind of person who understands nuance
             | isn't the kind of person to post in HN flame wars.
             | 
             | The industry is still in it's infancy right now, and stuff
             | can change in 3-5 years.
             | 
             | Heck, 5 years ago models like GPT-4o were considered
             | unrealistic in scale, and funding in the AI/ML space was
             | drying up at the expense of crypto and cybersecurity. Yet
             | look at the industry today.
             | 
             | We're still very early and there are a lot of opportunities
             | that are going to be discovered or are in the process of
             | being discovered.
        
           | skybrian wrote:
           | It would be nice to have more examples. Without specifics,
           | "massive growth in startups" isn't easily distinguishable
           | from hype.
           | 
           | A trend towards domain-specific tools makes sense, though.
        
             | alephnerd wrote:
             | DevTools/Configuration Management and Automated SOC are two
             | fairly significant example.
        
               | skybrian wrote:
               | Those are more like broad categories than examples of
               | startups, though.
        
               | jayd16 wrote:
               | Am I the only one unimpressed by the dev tool situation?
               | Debugging and verifying the generated code is more work
               | than simply writing it.
               | 
               | I'm much more impressed with the advances in computer
               | vision and image generation.
               | 
               | Either way, what are the startups that I should be
               | looking at?
        
               | Terr_ wrote:
               | And even when the output is perfect, it may be that the
               | tool is helping you write the same thing a hundred times
               | instead of abstracting it into a better library or helper
               | function.
               | 
               | Search/Replace as a service.
        
         | hanniabu wrote:
         | Yes, it should really be called collective intelligence not
         | artificial intelligence
        
       | ysofunny wrote:
       | I feel weird being stubborn against free tier google gemini
       | 
       | I feel as though it 'extracts' some sort of "smartness" out of me
       | (if any) and then whatever intelligence from me becomes part of
       | google gemini
       | 
       | this is why I would never want to pay for using these tools,
       | anything good that comes from me in the chat becomes google's by
       | AI training, which is ok so long as it's free to use
       | 
       | i.e. I won't pay to make their stuff better through my own work
        
         | buzzerbetrayed wrote:
         | I totally sympathize with the sentiment. But how long until
         | people who are taking a moral stand against AI are simply
         | obsoleted by the people who don't? Today it's easy to code
         | effectively without relying on AI. But in 10 years will you
         | simply be too slow? Same argument can be made with nearly any
         | industry.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | Pretty much like the people that don't care about privacy.
           | You still get captured and tagged in their information and
           | uploaded to the web. As an individual it's difficult to do
           | much about it.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | That's same logic as for frameworks like react.
           | 
           | With react you are more productive, my web experience is
           | worse than without a those frameworks.
           | 
           | And LLMs get worse if they are trained on AI generated text.
           | At the current speed I don't know if in 10 years AI is still
           | worse the high costs.
        
             | joshstrange wrote:
             | > With react you are more productive, my web experience is
             | worse than without a those frameworks.
             | 
             | You cannot begin to know that for sure and really makes
             | little to no sense if you think about it.
             | 
             | As with the anti-electron crowd the options are not:
             | 
             | * Electron app
             | 
             | or
             | 
             | * Bespoke, hand-crafted, made with love, native app
             | 
             | The options are normally "electron app" or "nothing".
             | 
             | Same deal here. Taking away React/Angular/Vue won't
             | magically make people write more performant websites. I'm
             | sure people bitched about (and continue to) PHP for making
             | it easy for people to create websites that aren't
             | performant or Wordpress for all its flaws. It's the same
             | story that's repeated over and over in tech circles and I
             | find it both silly and incredibly short-sighted. Actually I
             | find it tiring because you can always go one level deeper
             | to one-up these absurd statements. It's No True Scotsman
             | all the way down.
        
               | emptiestplace wrote:
               | I feel like I (probably?) agree with what you are saying,
               | but this is a very confusing comment. You started out
               | with an epistemological argument, and then jumped into an
               | analogy that's so close to what is being discussed that
               | on first read I thought you were just confused. I'm not
               | sure anyone can continue the discussion in a meaningful
               | way from what you've written because so many aspects of
               | your comment are ambiguous or contradictory.
        
               | croes wrote:
               | I mean retrospectively.
               | 
               | In the time before all those framework like react the UX
               | was better for me than now.
               | 
               | Less flashy, animated but faster.
        
               | smileson2 wrote:
               | I hate this analogy, even things from the rad days like
               | vb were better than electron
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | Several LLM providers have solid promises that they won't train
         | on your inputs to them. OpenAI have this if you are using their
         | paid API (though frustratingly not for their paid ChatGPT
         | users, at least to my knowledge), and Anthropic have that for
         | input to their free apps as well:
         | https://support.anthropic.com/en/articles/7996885-how-do-you...
         | 
         | I was hoping I could say the same for Gemini, but unfortunately
         | their policy at
         | https://support.google.com/gemini/answer/13594961?visit_id=6...
         | says "Google uses this data, consistent with our Privacy
         | Policy, to provide, improve, and develop Google products and
         | services and machine-learning technologies"
         | 
         | My intuition is that Google don't directly train on user
         | conversations (because user conversations are full of both junk
         | and sensitive information that no model would want to train
         | on), but I can't state that with any credibility.
        
           | fhdsgbbcaA wrote:
           | I'm sure there's absolutely zero chance that Sam Altman would
           | lie about that, especially now that he's gutted all oversight
           | and senior-level opposition.
        
           | light_hue_1 wrote:
           | Ah yes. Solid promises you can never verify. That companies
           | would benefit massively from violating.
           | 
           | That's worth literally nothing.
        
             | choilive wrote:
             | It would also destroy these companies if they were ever
             | caught lying.
        
               | atq2119 wrote:
               | That seems awfully optimistic, given what Sam Altman is
               | getting away with transforming the governing structure of
               | OpenAI.
        
               | jart wrote:
               | Not if the government required them to do it.
        
             | Workaccount2 wrote:
             | I know this sounds heretical, but companies generally do
             | not go against what they say they are doing. They might use
             | clever language or do slimey things, but it's very rare
             | that they will say "We do not do xyz" while they are in
             | fact doing xyz. Especially for big companies.
             | 
             | Reputation has far more value than whatever they gain by
             | lying. Besides, they can just say "We do xyz" because <1%
             | of users read the TOS and less than <0.1% care enough to
             | not use the service.
        
               | pton_xd wrote:
               | This is supremely naive, in my opinion.
               | 
               | Big companies not only lie, some of them do so routinely,
               | including breaking the law. Look at the banking industry:
               | Wells Fargo fraudulent / fake account scandal, JPMorgan
               | Chase UST and precious metals future fraud. Standard
               | Charter bank caught money laundering for Iran, twice.
               | Deutsche Bank caught laundering for Russia, twice. UBS
               | laundering and tax evasion. Credit Suisse caught
               | laundering for Iran. And so on.
               | 
               | Really it comes down to what a company believes it can
               | get away with, and what the consequences will be. If
               | there are minimal consequences they'd be dumb not to try.
               | 
               | Oh I just remembered a funny one: remember when it came
               | out that Uber employees were using "God view" to spy on
               | ex-partners, etc? For years. Yeah I'm pretty sure the TOS
               | didn't have a section "Our employees may, from time to
               | time, spy on you at their discretion." Actually the
               | opposite, Uber explicitly said they couldn't access ride
               | information for its users.
        
               | startupsfail wrote:
               | The company can certainly make a calculated risk of going
               | against their TOS and their promise to the customers at
               | the cost of potential risk of their reputation.
               | 
               | Note that such reputation risks are external and
               | internal. The reputation reflects on the executive team
               | and there is a risk that the executive team members may
               | leave or attempt to get the unscrupulous employee fired.
        
               | blooalien wrote:
               | > Google: "Don't Be Evil" is our motto!
               | 
               | > Also Google: "Let's do _all_ the evil things... " ~
               | heavily "paraphrased" ;)
               | 
               | My "tongue-in-cheek point" is that it seems like
               | corporations beyond a certain point of "filthy-richness"
               | just do as they please, and say what they please, and
               | mostly neither thing has to agree with the other, nor
               | does either one need affect their profits "bottom line"
               | all that seriously much. Most of your typical "mega-
               | corps" are really only able to be affected much by the
               | laws and legal system, which they've been increasingly
               | "capturing" in various ways so that happens very rarely
               | anymore these days, and when it does it's most often a
               | "slap on the wrist" and "don't do that!" sorta thing,
               | followed by more business-as-usual.
               | 
               | You know the old worry about the "paperclip production
               | maximizer AI" eating everything to create paperclips?
               | That's kinda where we're pretty-much _already_ at with
               | mega-corps. They 're so utterly laser-focused on
               | maximizing to extract every last dime of profit out of
               | _everything_ that they 're gonna end up literally
               | consuming all matter in the universe if they don't just
               | destroy us all in the process of trying to get there.
        
         | JCharante wrote:
         | tbh your data would be too unstructured, it's not really being
         | used to train unless you flag it deliberately with a feedback
         | mechanism
        
       | JCharante wrote:
       | > AI models now require trainers with advanced degrees
       | 
       | Companies that create data for FM (foundational model) companies
       | have been hiring people with degrees for years
       | 
       | > Invisible Tech employs 5,000 specialized trainers globally
       | 
       | Some of those companies have almost a million freelancers on
       | their platforms, so 5k is honestly kinda medium sized.
       | 
       | > It takes smart humans to avoid hallucinations in AI
       | 
       | Many smart humans fail at critical thinking. I've seen people
       | with masters fail at spotting hallucinations in elementary level
       | word problems.
        
         | aleph_minus_one wrote:
         | > Many smart humans fail at critical thinking. I've seen people
         | with masters fail at spotting hallucinations in elementary
         | level word problems.
         | 
         | This is like lamenting that a person who has a doctoral degree,
         | say, in mathematics or physics often don't have a more than
         | basic knowledge about, for example, medicine or pharmacy.
        
           | JCharante wrote:
           | It depends on your definition of smart. I think that holding
           | a degree != smart.
        
             | aniviacat wrote:
             | > I think that holding a degree != smart.
             | 
             | Does this mean that these two sentences are completely
             | unrelated and only happen to exist within the same
             | paragraph?
             | 
             | > Many smart humans fail at critical thinking. I've seen
             | people with masters [...]
             | 
             | I've understood you to use "people with masters" as an
             | example of "smart humans".
        
               | JCharante wrote:
               | Well the article began by talking about how before these
               | data training companies would just hire generalists for
               | $2/hr, but now they're hiring degree holders. And it
               | mentions that smart people will be necessary. I'm just
               | saying that degree holding != smart and it's a trap that
               | those data training companies have to avoid.
        
             | aleph_minus_one wrote:
             | > It depends on your definition of smart. I think that
             | holding a degree != smart.
             | 
             | You wrote:
             | 
             | > I've seen people with masters fail at spotting
             | hallucinations in elementary level word problems.
             | 
             | I wanted to express that having a master in some (even
             | complicated) subject does not make you a master at [pun
             | intended] spotting hallucinations. To give evidence for
             | this statement, I gave a different, more down-to-earth
             | example of a similar situation.
        
               | JCharante wrote:
               | It was a math problem, like this.
               | 
               | Q: A farmer has 72 chickens. He sells 15 chickens at the
               | market and buys 8 new chicks. Later that week, a fox
               | sneaks into the coop and eats 6 chickens. How many
               | chickens could the farmer sell at the market tomorrow?
               | 
               | AI Answer: The farmer started with 72 chickens. After
               | selling 15, he had 57 chickens left. Then he bought 8 new
               | chicks, bringing the total to 65. Finally, the fox ate 6
               | chickens, so we subtract 6 from 65. This gives us 59
               | chickens. Therefore, the farmer now has 59 chickens that
               | he could sell at the market tomorrow.
               | 
               | --
               | 
               | You'd expect someone who can read/understand proofs to be
               | able to spot a a flow in the logic that it takes longer
               | than 1 week for chicks to turn into chickens.
        
               | aleph_minus_one wrote:
               | > You'd expect someone who can read/understand proofs to
               | be able to spot a a flow in the logic that it takes
               | longer than 1 week for chicks to turn into chickens.
               | 
               | Rather, I'd assume that someone who is capable of
               | spotting the flow in the logic has a decent knowledge of
               | the English language (in this case referring to the
               | difference in meaning between "chick" and "chicken").
               | 
               | Many people who are good mathematicians (i.e. capable of
               | "reading/understanding proofs" as you expressed it) are
               | not native English speakers or have a great L2 level of
               | English.
        
               | Viliam1234 wrote:
               | But I was told that humans have this thing called
               | "general intelligence", which means they should be
               | capable to do both math _and_ English!
               | 
               | If an AI made a similar mistake, people would laugh at
               | it.
        
               | aleph_minus_one wrote:
               | > But I was told that humans have this thing called
               | "general intelligence", which means they should be
               | capable to do both math and English!
               | 
               | You confuse "intelligence" with "knowledge". To keep to
               | your example: there exist quite a lot of highly
               | intelligent people on earth who don't or barely know
               | English.
        
               | jonahx wrote:
               | When an educated person misses this question, it's not
               | because the temporal logic is out of their reach. It's
               | because they scanned the problem and answered quickly.
               | They're pattern matching to a type of problem that
               | wouldn't include the "tomorrow/next week" trick, and then
               | giving the correct answer to that.
               | 
               | Imo it's evidence that humans make assumptions and aren't
               | always thorough more than evidence of smart people being
               | unable to perform elementary logic.
        
               | echoangle wrote:
               | As a layman, i have no clue at what point a chick turns
               | into a chicken. I also think this isn't even answerable,
               | because ,,new chick" doesn't really imply ,,newborn" but
               | only means ,,new to the farmer", so the chicks could be
               | at an age where they would be chickens a week later, no?
        
           | visarga wrote:
           | > This is like lamenting that a person who has a doctoral
           | degree, say, in mathematics or physics often don't have a
           | more than basic knowledge in, for example, medicine or
           | pharmacy.
           | 
           | It was word problems not rocket science. That tells a lot
           | about human intelligence. We're much less smart than we
           | imagine, and most of our intelligence is based on book
           | learning, not original discovery. Causal reasoning is based
           | on learning and checking exceptions to rules. Truly novel
           | ideation is actually rare.
           | 
           | We spent years implementing transformers in a naive way until
           | someone figured out you can do it with much less memory
           | (FlashAttention). That was such a face palm, it was a trivial
           | idea thousands of PhDs missed. And the code is just 3 for
           | loops, with a multiplication, a sum and an exponential. An
           | algorithm that fits on a napkin in its abstract form.
        
             | beepbooptheory wrote:
             | Doesn't this lead you to, perhaps, question the category
             | and measure of "intelligence" in general, especially how it
             | is mobilized in this kind of context? Like this very angle
             | does a lot to point out the contradictions in some
             | speculative metaphysical category of "intelligence" or
             | "being smart," but then you just seem to accept it in this
             | particular kind of fatalism.
             | 
             | Why not take away from this that "intelligence" is a word
             | that obtains something relative to a particular society,
             | namely, one which values some kind of behavior and speech
             | over others. "Intelligence" is something important to
             | society, its the individual who negotiates (or not) the way
             | they think and learn with what this particular signifier
             | connects with at a given place and time.
             | 
             | Like I assume you don't agree, but just perhaps if we use
             | our "intelligence" here we could maybe come to some
             | different conclusions here! Everyone is just dying to be
             | like mid-20th century behaviorist now, I just don't
             | understand!
        
             | klabb3 wrote:
             | > And the code is just 3 for loops, with a multiplication,
             | a sum and an exponential.
             | 
             | All invented/discovered and formalized by humans. That we
             | found so much (unexpected) power in such simple
             | abstractions is not a failure but a testament to the
             | absolute ingenuity of human pursuit of knowledge.
             | 
             | The mistake is we're over-estimating isolated discoveries
             | and underestimating their second order effects.
        
           | dilawar wrote:
           | I think many people like to believe that solving puzzles will
           | somehow make them better at combinatorics. Lateral skill
           | transfer in non-motor skills e.g. office works, academics
           | works etc may not be any better than motor skills. It's
           | easier to convince people that playing soccer everyday
           | wouldn't make them any better at cricket, or even hockey.
        
             | sudosysgen wrote:
             | But motor skills transfer extremely well. It's not uncommon
             | for professional athletes to switch sports, some even
             | repeatedly.
        
               | Der_Einzige wrote:
               | There's some famous ass basketball players with mediocre
               | but still existent MLB careers.
        
               | jononor wrote:
               | Wealth, network and fame transfers incredibly well
               | between fields. Possibly better than anything else. It
               | should be accounted for when reasoning about success in
               | disparate fields. In addition to luck, of course.
        
             | thatcat wrote:
             | Kobe Bryant played soccer, Michael Jordan played baseball,
             | Lebron played football.. it actually makes you even better
             | because you learn non traditional strategies to apply to
             | the other sport you're playing.
        
         | 39896880 wrote:
         | All the models do is hallucinate. They just sometimes
         | hallucinate the truth.
        
       | SamGyamfi wrote:
       | There is a cost-quality tradeoff companies are willing to make
       | for AI model training using synthetic data. It shows up fairly
       | often with AI research labs and their papers. There are also
       | upcoming tools that remove the noise that would trip up some
       | advanced models during annotation. Knowing this, I don't think
       | the "human-labeled data is better" argument will last that long.
        
       | yawnxyz wrote:
       | "raw dogging" non-RLHF'd language models (and getting good and
       | unique output) is going to be a rare and sought-after skill soon.
       | It's going to be a new art form
       | 
       | someone should write a story about that!
        
       | theptip wrote:
       | I feel this is one of the major ways that most pundits failed
       | with their "the data is going to run out" predictions.
       | 
       | First and foremost a chatbot generates plenty of new data (plus
       | feedback!), but you can also commission new high-quality content.
       | 
       | Karpathy recently commented that GPT-3 needs so many parameters
       | because most of the training set is garbage, and that he expects
       | eventually a GPT-2 sized model could reach GPT-3 level, if
       | trained exclusively on high-quality textbooks.
       | 
       | This is one of the ways you get textbooks to push the frontier
       | capabilities.
        
         | from-nibly wrote:
         | At a good cost though? Last time I checked generating good data
         | costs a tiny bit more than an http request to somebody elses
         | website.
        
       | recursive wrote:
       | It kind of seems like it got dumber to me. Maybe because my first
       | exposure to it was so magical. But now, I just notice all the
       | ways it's wrong.
        
       | bdjsiqoocwk wrote:
       | Submarine article placed by Cohere. Wtf is cohere.
        
       | wlindley wrote:
       | a/k/a It is all a clever scam. True, or true?
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-09-28 23:00 UTC)