[HN Gopher] The Architecture of London Pubs (1966)
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The Architecture of London Pubs (1966)
Author : youbet
Score : 118 points
Date : 2024-09-27 19:04 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (thelondonmagazine.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (thelondonmagazine.org)
| zabzonk wrote:
| there was a bad time in the 1960s, when this article was
| published, but the pubs that are managing to survive nowadays
| (non-survival for a variety of reasons - covid, taxation to name
| two) are much better than suggested.
| mjirv wrote:
| Out of curiosity, I googled several of the pubs he mentioned.
| All but one* was still around.
|
| *I found a pub called the Ranelagh, but it's not in Pimlico, so
| I assume it's a different one. It was the one he described as
| "really terrible," so no big loss, I suppose.
|
| Addendum: the other interesting thing I noticed was the ones he
| derided as having been "modernized" in the 1960s were also
| newly renovated today, with airy, Scandinavian, 2020s
| aesthetics. Presumably because unlike the traditional pubs, the
| 60s style became dated pretty quickly.
| abridges6523 wrote:
| Much denser world network now
| zabzonk wrote:
| There is a pub called The Ranelagh in Bounds Green, North
| London which is near to what used to be a Middlesex
| Polytechnic site where the computer centre was located (DEC
| 10, two IBM 4381s, several VAXen and a couple of Primes) and
| where I worked in the mid to late 1980s. It was a hole then
| (still there, but I haven't been in for many years), but that
| didn't stop us programmers drinking there.
| surfingdino wrote:
| If they can survive being converted in housing stock. They are
| disappearing fast.
| ProxCoques wrote:
| > The great brewers - Watneys, Whitbreads and so on--are
| disposing of all that rubbish: that's out now, finished with,
| they say.
|
| So was this the start of the great decline in the quality of
| brewing in the UK during the 70's that led to CAMRA and
| eventually to the microbrewery renaissance we had in the late
| 90's to 00's?
| laurencerowe wrote:
| I moved to the US about a decade ago, but I feel like
| microbreweries were pretty rare in the UK during the 90's and
| 00's, I only really came across a couple living in Manchester
| at the time (a couple more have opened since) while there are
| several within a couple miles of me in San Francisco.
|
| Most real ale in Britain was brewed in traditional breweries
| that had been going for a century or more that had either
| escaped being rolled into one of the majors or revived one of
| the old breweries abandoned by them, like Black Sheep in the
| old Lightfoot's Brewery.
|
| By contrast the UK microbreweries often seemed more influenced
| by the US craft beer style which developed from home brewing
| since their traditional breweries were all shut down during
| prohibition.
| ProxCoques wrote:
| I see - I got the impression that the 70-80's was a sort of
| dark age for beer in the UK, with mass-produced low-quality
| stuff from the likes of Watneys and Carslberg etc. taking
| over, which CAMRA was a reaction against.
| laurencerowe wrote:
| I think that's true, it just seems to have been more a case
| of avoiding the extinction of traditional brewing in the UK
| vs starting from scratch in the US.
| ljm wrote:
| > Quite shortly the English pub will be extinct, part of history.
|
| _Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose_
|
| Many of the described style of pubs are alive and well, often in
| the form of a Sam Smith's.
| jessriedel wrote:
| Tangential: As an American, one of the things I liked most about
| London pubs when I first started visiting in the '00s was the
| lack of screens, which were hard to escape in American bars.
| Unfortunately this was only temporary, as the majority of the
| London pubs I've seen on recent visits are covered with screens
| like home.
| overcast wrote:
| Stay away from sports pubs/bars.
| LtWorf wrote:
| I've been in one which had tvs over the orinals, in sweden.
| amenhotep wrote:
| That's kinda brilliant. Nothing worse than missing a goal
| because you had to answer a call of nature.
| dexterdog wrote:
| What about whizzing on your hands because of your bad
| timing?
| fsckboy wrote:
| you were trying to head a corner kick?
| scrlk wrote:
| Sounds like you'd enjoy visiting a pub owned by Samuel Smith.
|
| > Our pubs are havens from the digital world - there are no TVs
| or background music. The use of mobile phones, laptops and
| other tech is not allowed in our pubs.
|
| https://samuelsmithsbrewery.co.uk/pubs/
| craz8 wrote:
| In the 80s, Sam Smith pubs had a '25 pubs in London'
| challenge. Get a drink in each of the 25 and get a T-shirt.
| It took me and a friend several weeks. There was a story of
| some guys doing it in a weekend. Hard because of travel AND
| opening times of some of the financial centre ones.
|
| Good Times! And of course, no screens and no-one had phones
| (except in the financial centre and those came with an
| external battery)
| matt-p wrote:
| That's a sports pub.
| williamdclt wrote:
| As others say, Londoners/brits make a distinction between "pub"
| and "sports pub", the former don't usually have any TV (or it's
| off, only used for big England games when every pub becomes a
| sports pub).
|
| Contrary to your experience, I'm pretty sure that most pubs are
| not sports pubs in London
| tetris11 wrote:
| They do though. The old guard keeping the depressing pubholes
| alive do so by watching their football there. It's usually
| just one or two screens, granted, but they're there.
| Thankfully they can be easy ignored.
| specproc wrote:
| I'm not into them myself, but a lot of the ones that are
| struggling these days are the (non-chain) old man,
| football, working-class pubs in struggling towns.
|
| I'm back visiting for the first extended period of time in
| a decade, and the bifurcation of the drinking/eating sector
| is striking. So many new fancy, up-market places with food,
| craft beer and eye-watering prices; so many shuttered old-
| school pubs.
|
| It says a lot about where we are as a country.
| tetris11 wrote:
| Blackpool meets London
| jessriedel wrote:
| This can't be defined away. Most of the members of the set
| ({pubs} U {sports pubs}) have screens in London.
| habosa wrote:
| No screens and at most of them no music either. Very few people
| drinking while standing. Just a pleasant place to have some
| beers with friends.
|
| When I moved back from London to the US (where I've spent 90%
| of my life) I was so much more distracted by the screens than I
| had ever been before.
| tempusalaria wrote:
| go to smaller pubs. They don't have the footfall to justify the
| exorbitant commercial sports license fees and so don't have
| screens. Fancier pubs and gastropubs also tend not to have
| screens
| jessriedel wrote:
| Sure there are of course plenty of great places. They weren't
| like purged or something. But now you have to go searchings,
| like in the US
| ljm wrote:
| I don't think you do - every few years there are articles
| of pubs shutting down and it being a crisis. Happened as
| long as I've lived.
|
| You don't have to go far precisely because your local craft
| beer haunt, gastropub, sports bar and boozer all serve
| different clientele.
| ggm wrote:
| I mainly drank around UCL in bloomsbury and down at the Princess
| Louise near high holborn. Cosy snugs and a refurbished Victorian
| ambiance in the early 80s.
|
| My parents drank around Shepherd's Bush in the 50s and 60s and
| "the goons" used to refine their schtik in the pub. Fun times!
| tetris11 wrote:
| There was one pub not far off TCR that had a nice sofa and
| fireplace. We'd always have one of us duck out early to secure
| the spot an hour or two before.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| Princess Louise is still there, same as it always was.
|
| Around the corner is the Hercules Pillars which has been
| substantially refurbished, but still very comfortable and has
| some separation going on.
|
| Most of the pubs around Bloomsbury have gone though. There are
| a few, but hard to keep it all going in an area where a lot of
| the housing lies empty - just owned by foreign investors, who
| are using it as a store of value they hope will appreciate
| faster than other asset classes.
| retzkek wrote:
| A random blog I found through Kagi Small Web is one man's journey
| to visit all the pubs in the _Good Beer Guide_ :
| https://simeyeveritt.wixsite.com/brapa
|
| It's such an interesting look into these slices of life, both
| current and former, that are so unlike my own experiences.
| codedeep wrote:
| UK Pubs always have a style, they stick out when abroad. I've not
| noticed the same consistency of style in US bars/pubs.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| Wow there is a lot to unpick here.
|
| 1. I think all the pubs he mentions have gone.
|
| 2. He was born and raised in Chelsea. That's pretty rare now -
| Londonnhas undergone a paroxysm of middle class selling up to
| wealthy (foreign) investors and I would be amazed if any
| architects today could be born and raised there.
|
| 3. I love the detail of the balance bars on the pub lanterns.
| They are all gone because an electric bulb can operate even when
| swinging - but a candle or gas just need to remain upright - wow.
|
| 4. Cars - cars are hardly mentioned because this was 1966 and you
| could drink and drive, you can park anywhere because most people
| did not have / need a car
|
| 5. Men not families - again still the sixties
|
| 6. The rise of food and Gastropubs - it's rare a pub can survive
| on drinking alone and being part of the lunchtime food trade is
| almost as profitable as evening drinking
|
| Our "third spaces" do matter and reflect on us in interesting
| ways - going to come back to this article :-)
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| Most of the pubs exist still, I think.
|
| The food thing has always been the case, it's just that in the
| past you could make a bit of stew or have some pies in a warmer
| at the end of the bar, and you could sell them for a reasonable
| price, and make more profit than you would on same spend on
| beer (alcohol duty has been around a long time), but now, needs
| have changed.
|
| That's come from two directions. First, those pie warmers and
| stew pots would struggle with modern health and safety rules in
| relation to food, and compliance with the regs costs more money
| so you need more expensive product.
|
| Secondly, consumer demand. A lot of central pubs now are
| dealing with far more tourists than were around in the 1960s as
| a consequence of cheaper air travel and changing drinking
| habits of local resident populations. Those two groups mean
| pubs have had to move to sit down meals, and at a near-
| restaurant price point. A few go a little under that level
| (Greene King and Fuller's for example, they seem to do very
| well on food at a non-gastro price point), but they always knew
| food made more money than beer.
|
| I think it interesting that Sam Smith pubs segregate the food.
| You can't just order food to your table - you have to go to the
| dining room. This means intent has to be decided on as you walk
| in. I like it a bit, but actually, I'd prefer the Fullers
| experience more, in that if I have a couple of pints and then
| want to order a battered whitebait with a jenga of chips and
| some crushed peas, I can do that. :)
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| I think the "women in the workplace" social change has had a
| much more impactful change than the surface "gastropub".
|
| Looking at say the 30s to the 60s pubs were a mostly male
| preserve, and the vast majority of the spenders.
|
| As society evened up its finances a little, women coukd
| choose and that choice was fairly obviously away from male
| dominated drinking establishments - over time of course.
|
| Anyway the shift to more geneder equality has had HVD impacts
| across the board - weakening trades unions, holding down
| wages etc
|
| I think I am wondering off the point but I reckon there is a
| six part tV series in "chnaging britain in a dozen pubs"
| eadmund wrote:
| You forgot 7: the men with caps and pipes are no longer there
| because of the smoking ban. It's just not a proper pub if
| there's not some smoke spiralling up to the ceiling.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| I know a lot about London pubs, and this made me smile.
|
| If you want to see the kind of old layout he's talking about,
| almost any Sam Smith pub in London will do - they pride
| themselves on keeping it traditional - with the best and most
| striking example probably being the Princess Louise near Holborn.
| Just don't expect any beer names you recognise - it's a brewery
| pub that only sells stuff made by Sam Smiths (the beer), or
| branded Sam Smiths (the spirits, the snacks...)
|
| Most of the others still exist, but I think have been refurbished
| quite extensively and not in a way he'd like.
|
| However, there is some hope. Newer bars are opening that are
| trying to tap into a less sports-focused vibe. Some focusing on
| food, some on entertainment, quite a few on a wider range of more
| unusual beers (the "Tap" chain near train stations and just down
| the road from Farringdon for example).
|
| Of course the dominant player in the mega pub "hall" space is
| Wetherspoons. Caverns - low-ceilinged cathedrals almost - to
| cheap beer and Brexit politics. They're cheap, and so attract
| clientele who are price sensitive. That leaves more room in all
| the others for those of us who value something else, I guess.
|
| The pub trade in the U.K. though is in trouble. It's interesting
| that Europe's largest consumer lobby group is based in the U.K.:
| CAMRA. It's most interesting that the CAMpaign for Real Ale,
| started to protect traditionally brewed cask ale from being
| obliterated by the sorts of breweries that thought beer should be
| tankered like petrol, has had to change it's target.
|
| CAMRA basically thinks the war for Real Ale has been won. The
| rise of microbreweries has meant a plentiful supply of good
| quality beer is secure. But the pub is not. So now it's become a
| bit more CAMPUB, and campaigns to save the business of public
| houses itself, the traditional bar games (skittles or bar
| billiards, anyone?), and the communities that sit in them.
|
| The architecture is important, the interior should be considered,
| the screens have a place in some - but not all - pubs.
|
| But it's the people that matter, and at the moment the industry
| is in a mess.
|
| It's remarkable so many pubs in this article still exist. I don't
| think many of them will survive another 60 years, perhaps not
| even another 10.
|
| Enjoy them while you can.
| DrBazza wrote:
| Pubs used to be 11-3, and 6-11, give or take, whereas High
| Street restaurants, that can often also serve alcohol and
| family friendly, are 11-11, so it's not much of a surprise that
| they're converging, slowly to the same business model: there's
| not a pub in my area that doesn't do food, or coffee, or indeed
| breakfast. If you have a building that needs heating 24 hours a
| day, having revenue for most of that time is going to help, so
| a small number of those additionally offer free wifi for the
| WFH types, which actually seems to be beneficial.
|
| Some of those pubs local to me, that have been purchased and
| gutted by smaller boutique brewery chains, have been turned
| into something indistinguishable from a coffee shop - the
| dangling light bulbs, brickwork, copper pipes. Coincidentally,
| I'm off to my local #1 CAMRA pub later, and it is much like the
| article describes. A typical pub. Dark wood, central bar, low
| ceilings, two bars (saloon and public), darts, and one tv
| screen. And it will be full by mid-afternoon through to the end
| of the day, which is unusual for pubs now.
|
| It just seems like the main problem for pubs, and in fact, most
| of British industry, is costs, and that seems to be the
| exorbitant cost of electricity at the moment.
| specproc wrote:
| A lot of the problems started under Blair. Licensing for
| music was a horrible policy move. The smoking ban necessary,
| but brutal for pubs; ditto a crackdown on underage drinking.
|
| In my forties, and I feel that my generation was the last to
| enjoy a particular pub experience which is now a rapidly
| receding memory.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| The smoking ban caused a small bump - and we suddenly
| realised all the pubs had stinking toilets that the smoke
| had masked - but I think it actually resulted in both
| better environments for a wider audience, and a massive
| benefit to public health, particularly in working class
| communities. Long term, I think it led to a better pub
| environment for more people.
|
| There have been consistent and regular crackdowns on
| underage drinking for well over a century - I don't recall
| a particularly large crackdown in recent years, but the
| licensing has changed: the Police now have more leverage
| over whether a publican and their property should keep
| trading than they did before, and that's meant a lot of
| idiot landlords who didn't give a damn about the social
| problems their idiocy caused have been forced out of the
| industry. Those who run a tighter ship stay in business.
|
| By far the biggest shift seems to me, generational
| attitudes to drinking. When I was in my early 20s, I was in
| the pub pretty much every night (and many lunchtimes), and
| I wasn't alone, and was drinking with colleagues and
| friends who were the same age all the way up to retirement
| age and beyond.
|
| The people I work with today in their early 20s might go
| out twice a month, and even then might only have 2-3 drinks
| all night. They're more likely to go to the gym in the
| evening, or to head home and watch Netflix or read their
| Kindle than to go to the pub.
|
| It's interesting that low alcohol drinks are the biggest
| growth sector, and I've seen 0% beer on draught a little
| more in recent months. It might seriously help the sector
| if we just accept getting sloshed every night isn't good
| for people, people are realising it, and that you need to
| cater for that.
| gwervc wrote:
| I don't know about the UK but in my country it's not
| uncommon to have pints priced at 8EUR, which is 0.5% of
| the minimal salary. It is a really pricy way to spend
| time.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| EUR8 (PS6.80) is more than most pints even in London, and
| quite a lot more than the PS4.50 I usually pay cos I've
| been here a while, and know the cheaper places. But even
| then, PS4.50 adds up fast.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| > So now it's become a bit more CAMPUB, and campaigns to save
| the business of public houses itself, the traditional bar games
| (skittles or bar billiards, anyone?), and the communities that
| sit in them.
|
| Isn't it the case that the "pub scene" is healthy - revenues
| and number of pub employees hasn't decayed significantly, but
| the number of pubs has. A big part of that is people preferring
| the larger pubs - going to Wetherspoons for a cheaper pint from
| a wide range of beers (perhaps with food and sports) than a
| cosy local that is more expensive and has a limited range.
|
| Unfortunately I can't see CAMRA being able to do much about the
| economics of a small traditional pub vs the current rental or
| sale value of the building its in.
| papa-whisky wrote:
| Tweedy Pubs on YouTube has many videos detailing historic pubs in
| London, worth a watch if you found TFA interesting:
| https://youtube.com/@tweedypubs
|
| (No affiliation, I just enjoy the channel)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| A view from (1946): https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-
| foundation/orwel...
|
| [snugs and gardens with plane trees and playground are still
| common in my area; they occur every 3 km or so]
|
| EDIT: looks like "The Sloaney Pony" might have a garden? no, I
| think I'd call that a terrace.
| f_allwein wrote:
| Beautiful bit of pub history in this video: Only You - Flying
| Pickets (apparently, The Red Lion & Pineapple):
|
| https://youtu.be/The Red Lion & Pineapple?si=RJXNiaY5xe5pOtzx
| bluesounddirect wrote:
| Similarly the bars / pubs of the north east of the US had a
| similar vibe until the late 90s . I remember 3 places Jersey City
| , Hoboken , Union City had tons of no screen places or just one
| screen . But nyc had tons by this point . Now not having 2 tv is
| the song of death.
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