[HN Gopher] Nova by Panic: Native Mac code editor
___________________________________________________________________
Nova by Panic: Native Mac code editor
Author : luismedel
Score : 96 points
Date : 2024-09-23 20:34 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (nova.app)
(TXT) w3m dump (nova.app)
| talldayo wrote:
| *paid editor
|
| There are a lot of great and fast IDE-like programs on Mac
| (CodeEdit, CotEdit, etc.) - try those before forking out $99 for
| a text editor.
| brudgers wrote:
| Checking out multiple code editors takes time. Optimizing $99
| purchases is sub-optimal for many people. Particularly in the
| context of professional software development.
|
| Finding free stuff can be a fun hobby. There's nothing wrong
| with using free time in that pursuit. Other people make
| different choices.
| mft_ wrote:
| You're assuming that because something costs $99, it's
| automatically going to be better than options which are
| cheaper of free?
| isametry wrote:
| I think he's implying that it's a decent bet when running a
| business, yes.
| avarun wrote:
| And it would be completely incorrect in the context of
| modern software development tools, where the best in
| class are open-source and free.
| user3939382 wrote:
| CotEditor and Nova aren't in the same category. Nova organizes
| projects.
| Crudodev wrote:
| Zed code editor looks more interesting, plus it is modern, open-
| source, and actively developed
| isametry wrote:
| I am also interested in Zed!
|
| (Although I think the program still needs a bit of time to
| smooth out the edges, plus not everyone may be a fan of the AI
| and collaborative features, which get a lot of care in the GUI.
| You can turn all of it off, but still.)
|
| But I don't like the implication that Nova is abandoned or less
| modern compared to Zed. Nova is arguably one of the sexiest
| apps on the Mac right now - it looks _gorgeous_ and it 's far
| more "Mac-assed" than any of Apple's software, for starters.
| And in terms of development / maintenance, it should be in VERY
| good hands at Panic.
|
| You're 100% right on open-source vs closed-source, though.
| veber-alex wrote:
| > Nova is arguably one of the sexiest apps on the Mac right
| now - it looks gorgeous and it's far more "Mac-assed" than
| any of Apple's software, for starters.
|
| Really? Looking at the screenshots from the front page it
| looks like a custom GUI framework and doesn't even look like
| a native macOS app, even the folder icons in the file tree
| are wrong. The only way I can tell it's a macOS app is by the
| traffic lights on the top left.
| chambored wrote:
| It is reminiscent of XCode in its icons and panels.
| isametry wrote:
| You're not wrong, the frontpage screenshots don't entirely
| do it justice. That title bar you mention is one of the
| most custom-looking components for sure, especially in the
| "Neon" theme.
|
| But it gets better when clicking around the app - all the
| different settings, modal sheets and sidebars feel very
| much like home.
|
| The filetree icons are... a choice, yes. They kind of lean
| more into the "smooth skeumorphic squircle" look which is
| normally applied to apps, NOT files and folders. I'm
| guessing they didn't want to and/or weren't allowed to use
| the plain icons that Xcode does.
| asa400 wrote:
| What does "modern" mean in this context?
| nicce wrote:
| Some things are already noted in design phase where you would
| need tons of plugins in other editors. And the resource usage
| footprint is pretty low.
| unplug8224 wrote:
| It typically means that it's written in JavaScript or Rust,
| depending on the intended audience
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Two extreme opposites. One entirely passionate vs one
| entirely optimizing for TC and leetcode.
| mattl wrote:
| Nova is also modern and actively developed.
| oidar wrote:
| What are the advantages of this over Visual Studio Code or
| JetBrain's Tools?
| isametry wrote:
| First word of the headline - it works and feels native to the
| platform. JetBrains and _especially_ VS Code don't respect the
| conventions of macOS software, visually as well as
| functionally.
| nottorp wrote:
| That may be a plus for code editing, for example pgup/pgdown
| moving the cursor instead of just the view...
| isametry wrote:
| I'm gonna bite on this example since you chose such a good
| one: if the convention on the platform is that `Page`
| buttons are like scrolling - NOT like arrowing - then good
| applications should respect that convention.
|
| You personally list this particular (mis)behavior as a
| "plus" since you like the PC convention better. But another
| person will think the opposite. Objectively, it's simply
| just inconsistent.
|
| What we need is "good platform citizen" apps which respect
| the local conventions, and you as the user get to choose
| the platform with its set of conventions you prefer.
|
| What we DON'T need is apps "unifying" behavior across
| operating systems based on their own opinion of what's
| better, ultimately just creating more mess.
| avarun wrote:
| No, you don't get to decide that. Myself and many others
| have decided they liked this unified behavior just fine,
| while still preferring to code on macOS.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| This 100%.
|
| Many of us on the Mac are there in part _because_ the
| environment and conventions make more sense to us than
| the conventions on other platforms. X-platform apps
| typically ignore this.
|
| See also
|
| https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/03/20/mac-assed-
| mac-a...
| nottorp wrote:
| I like the Mac conventions most of the time.
|
| However for keyboard shortcuts said conventions are
| defined for crippled keyboards without dedicated
| navigation keys and the extension for PgUp/Down is simply
| inefficient when programming.
| ascagnel_ wrote:
| I think there's a somewhat obvious middle ground here:
| use the platform's default behavior, and surface an
| option that lets a user decide if they prefer the other
| version; eg: a PC user should also have the option to
| treat the page keys as scroll inputs rather than cursor
| navigation.
| isametry wrote:
| No disagreement. But I was talking within the scenario
| where you only get _one_. (Should have pointed that out.)
| nottorp wrote:
| Answer 1: I don't use macs because of some religious
| conviction but because it's the least shitty platform
| available.
|
| Answer 2: I bought a general purpose computing device and
| I don't need the manufacturer to dictate how I use it.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| On this note, do you have any notes or resources on what
| makes a MacOS app "native"? It's a quality people discuss but
| I can't identify.
|
| I used MacOS briefly 2000-2004, and then got a Macbook in
| 2022. Even among Apple's built-in apps, I can't identify why
| they would be considered "native".
|
| For example, Apple's Music app is surely "native", but does
| not appear to use the DEs default elements, and performs like
| an electron app might.
|
| One would also expect Applescript / Automator (Apple's built-
| in macro tool, a-la AutoHotkey / xdotool) to work with native
| apps, but it doesn't work on ARM Macbooks.
|
| Compared to Linux, I think anyone with no experience in it
| could sort native GTK vs native Qt vs native xMotif
| applications. But I think "native" as a quality is more of a
| dependency management and consistency question.
|
| The only thing I can recognize from Panic's screenshots that
| appear "native" is the Preferences page, in the older "grid
| on a shelf" format. (edit) And the "install applications by
| dragging to the Applications" folder workflow, which I
| appreciate very much.
|
| All this is to ask, what does "works and feels native" mean
| and what makes it desirable?
| adolph wrote:
| > For example, Apple's Music app is surely "native", but
| does not appear to use the DEs default elements, and
| performs like an electron app might.
|
| For the grey beards of MacOS:
|
| _This guy trashes the HIG [Apple Human Interface Guide]
| the way Johnny Depp trashes a hotel room. He even sports a
| custom radius on his window corners. No other window on the
| system has a shape like this. It's wild. Just wait until
| the HIG zealots get a load of this guy._
|
| https://daringfireball.net/2005/09/anthropomorphized
| joshstrange wrote:
| Apple that follow the HIG [0] closely are normally
| considered "mac native" (though I don't like the word
| "native" here as I normally use it to differentiate between
| electron/native).
|
| [0] https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-
| guideline...
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _what makes a MacOS app "native"?_
|
| For me, it has three parts:
|
| 1) Does it _look_ native at a pixel level? In other words,
| does it use a standard Mac window and title bar and buttons
| and widgets and all the rest?
|
| 2) Is it _organized_ according to Mac UX conventions? Does
| it put commands in the menu bar rather than inside of
| windows? Are menu items where you 'd expect? Is the
| "Settings..." command where you'd expect, and is the
| Settings dialog laid out in standard tabs or icons across
| the top, rather than something else (like a list box on the
| left)?
|
| 3) Does it respect all standard _gestures and shortcuts and
| animations_? If I press opt+left in a textbox, will the
| cursor jump to the previous word? If I press cmd+right,
| will it jump to the end of the text? If I scroll down, will
| it bounce at the bottom?
|
| That's what it means. And it's desirable for 1) aesthetics,
| 2) understandability, and 3) usability directly
| corresponding to those three points. Aesthetics is less
| important but it's still nice. Understandability is
| important because I don't want to hunt for a command when
| it's not where I'd expect. And usability is critical
| because when I cmd+right in a text box and it doesn't work,
| it's _incredibly_ frustrating.
|
| Obviously, "native" is not a binary but is rather a
| continuum. And yes, even Apple's own apps are not always
| 100% at the "native" end, especially with stuff they've
| designed in conjunction with iOS. Which I think a lot of
| Mac users find frustrating.
| isametry wrote:
| Greatly put, thank you so much. We should put this up
| somewhere as the Mac-assed manifesto.
|
| But I would actually add, on a more fundamental level:
|
| 0) Does it actually run on my metal? I.e. not in a VM,
| not any sort of "thin client", and CERTAINLY not
| Electron... but rather an actual solid piece of software
| compiled _for_ the computer it 's running on?
|
| You say "native is not a binary" but actually, in my
| opinion _yes, it is also very much the binary!_
| wpm wrote:
| "is the Settings dialog laid out in standard tabs or
| icons across the top, rather than something else (like a
| list box on the left)?"
|
| Or worse, a huge plain old JSON with tons of multi line
| comments explaining what one particular key does.
|
| Like, I get it, its l33t and haxx0r to use a text file
| for settings, and yeah, you can easily transfer it to
| other platforms unlike an XML Plist file, but I despise
| apps that don't even bother providing a basic UI for
| changing settings. Ctrl+F "autocomplete" (30 results) is
| a *terrible* experience vs a natively drawn
| "Autocomplete" tab in a settings modal.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| I appreciate this, this helps explain it. I think I would
| identify Finder or iTerm as a native app with this
| description.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| As an apple fan, Music is disgusting on every platform. It
| is possible to be technically native but also very bad. For
| a text editor it is also true but where entry speed matters
| being a web based monster like VS studio is a downside. You
| may not notice delay consciously but it takes its toll
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| "It is possible to be technically native but also very
| bad" and yet still 100x better than iTunes.
| renewedrebecca wrote:
| It seems like it would be so easy to _not_ suck though. I
| think a lot of the problems stem from the Music app
| really wanting to be a streaming app, and not a way to
| organize your own music.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| Brent Simmons used the term "Mac-assed Mac app" for apps
| that are un-apologetically MAC apps, and not just
| x-platform builds of something else with no regard for the
| OS.
|
| https://daringfireball.net/linked/2020/03/20/mac-assed-
| mac-a...
| isametry wrote:
| First, I wish there was a resource but there isn't. This
| kind of just lives on as bits of folklore among users and
| devs. You'd think Apple's guidelines was a place to start,
| but honestly not really.
|
| The sibling comments gave some great answers and especially
| `crazygringo` summarized pretty much exactly what I was
| gonna say, so I'm not gonna go into detail.
|
| But I just wanna add: "Mac-assedness" totally includes of
| some strict, non-negotiable rules, but it also involves
| lots of loose, abstract "vibes" where even if your app
| isn't exactly guideline _on paper_ , it just feels right in
| spirit and paradoxically, by being more custom, the app
| comes out more native in the end. This takes a certain
| personal taste to pull off as a developer. And it is the
| opposite of _design by committee_.
| wpm wrote:
| "One would also expect Applescript / Automator (Apple's
| built-in macro tool, a-la AutoHotkey / xdotool) to work
| with native apps, but it doesn't work on ARM Macbooks."
|
| This is completely false, I use Automator, Applescript, and
| Folder Actions near daily on my Apple Silicon Macs.
| lynndotpy wrote:
| I have my Automations and Applescripts fail regularly,
| and I saw it discussed as one of the things Apple stopped
| maintaining after the move to ARM. In my experience, it
| doesn't work. (Of course, I can't compare to how well it
| worked on x86...)
| maratc wrote:
| Excellent points above, for me personally the "Shared Find
| pasteboard" has been a huge productivity boost.
|
| Everyone's aware of the normal clipboard: select some text,
| press ^C ([?]C on Mac) to copy and ^V ([?]V on Mac) to
| paste it. It's system-wide, so you can copy in one app and
| paste in a different one (or several).
|
| On Mac, there is a similar pasteboard (or "clipboard") for
| search strings. Select text, select "Use Selection for
| Find" or press [?]E (this sends it into shared find
| pasteboard, overwriting its contents), and [?]G to "Find
| Next" occurrence of that string, or |[?]G to "Find
| Previous".
|
| The shared find pasteboard is also system-wide, you can use
| [?]E in one app and [?]G/|[?]G in another app. When you use
| [?]F to "Find ...", it is expected to already open up
| populated with the contents of the shared find pasteboard.
|
| The majority of the cross-platform apps are lacking this
| feature, since they are designed to a lowest common
| denominator (which does not have the shared find
| pasteboard). On VS Code you'd find yourself doing ^C/^F/^V
| followed by several "Enter" keys, while overwriting
| whatever you've had on your clipboard and also polluting
| your clipboard history.
|
| I hope all that explains how I'm stuck with iTerm2, Safari,
| Mail, and TextMate. I'd pay for a native Slack client (the
| Electron abomination uses [?]F to "Find" and [?]G to
| "Search" while lacking [?]E completely) but sadly they
| don't make it.
| Lalabadie wrote:
| There's a portion of the web world that values this sort of
| tool immensely. Nova (like its predecessor Coda) is focused on
| a certain subset of web development workflows.
|
| I'm sure VSCode and others can be configured or extended to
| come close to the experience, but 100$ for something well-made
| that fits your workflow out of the box is a pretty great deal
| for a professional.
| err4nt wrote:
| If they were aiming to please web developers, they took a
| wrong approach. Their syntax highlighter by design is
| incompatible in its approach to parsing CSS to be able to
| syntax highlight it correctly, and this was pointed out to
| them early on and they just hacked something broken together.
| It didn't appear to be a serious attempt to support web
| languages.
| acomjean wrote:
| It's Mac only, which means it follows the Mac UI conventions
| and is probably, should run faster and is integrated into the
| OS a little better.
|
| I'm paying for jetbrains now. I'm on Linux but it's clearly a
| non-native application, which has some issues. Actually it
| integrates really well considering. I can run in any os and
| it's the same. I tried eclipse (free), but the experience wasnt
| good and it was worth buying jetbrains software. This probably
| has a quite polished experience.
|
| Panic also made transmit, which was my goto file transfer
| solution for a long time and a really decent piece of software.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| I like the UI more. It's native and feels snappier. But I don't
| use it as my main code editor - rather just as a text editor. I
| also edit markdown for my website with it. And do light PHP
| development with it (essentially just a few scripts).
|
| I don't know if I would use Nova to actually develop anything
| more serious. Haven't looked to deep into it and I like my
| devtools to be opensource or at least have the feeling of them
| being maintained for very long. (Text editors tend to die very
| often).
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Jetbrain tools are broken. A basic `npm link` in the js land
| stops autocomplete from working in Webstorm.
| noworriesnate wrote:
| > Jetbrain tools are broken.
|
| Nope. I use Rider on Mac and Windows and it's better than
| Visual Studio on Windows in almost every way it's different.
| I've used Pycharm and Datagrip extensively on Mac and Windows
| as well, they're excellent tools. I haven't used Webstorm
| much though.
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Rider and IntelliJ for C# and Java yes. But every other
| tool no. RustRover is horrible for Rust for example
| compared to VSCode + Rust plugin.
| bradley_taunt wrote:
| I really wanted to like this editor, but it chugs while working
| with 10,000+ file projects. It also seems to index all the files
| each time the project is relaunched.
|
| Sublime runs flawlessly working with this same codebase...
| zeckalpha wrote:
| ulimit?
| bradley_taunt wrote:
| Not sure if that would solve the underlying issues. CPU usage
| spikes to >190% when in use. Maybe this is a bug with
| Sequoia?
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I still have Sublime around, too. I want to quit it and
| consolidate elsewhere, but...
| jkestner wrote:
| I automatically bought Nova (cue fainting) when it came out
| because Panic has provided me with a lot of value over the years
| (yes, I paid for an FTP client, too).
|
| I still use VS Code the most, but I don't enjoy tinkering with
| endlessly customizable tools to get the perfect environment. I
| like an opinionated tool that has a solid handful of niceties,
| and doesn't abdicate features to a bazaar of plugins. Nova's good
| like that, but I miss Espresso, which I consider even more Mac-
| like for being a little offbeat but also had some genuine
| innovations like a GUI for CSS attributes. It hasn't been updated
| in several years, but I'm trying it again to see if it works
| better for the kids (learning web design) than Nova.
| nextos wrote:
| Transmit by Panic was one of the applications that were always
| featured back in the golden days of Tiger and Leopard.
|
| I find it a bit sad that the boutique and indie apps market on
| Macs seems to be languishing.
|
| There are still some great things around, but I think it was
| overshadowed by iOS.
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Now everything is being written in Electron because
| "shipping" has become culturally the most important thing.
| This is a whole misunderstanding of human happiness. We don't
| need anything beyond food and shelter. Don't need banks, VCs,
| markets and Slack. So we should focus on tinkering and making
| quality stuff again instead otherwise there is really no need
| to do anything.
| nextos wrote:
| Electron feels odd compared to native applications, and
| resource usage is pretty insane. A single Electron app
| takes more memory than everything running in my machine,
| including an X server, PipeWire, plus an Emacs and an XTerm
| instance. Well done native applications are really
| refreshing, and they don't spin my computer fans all the
| time.
|
| Macs had a very healthy boutique and indie app scene at
| some point, with lots of attention to detail, because users
| were happy to pay for good quality software. The Omni
| Group, Panic, Cultured Code, etc. all delivered outstanding
| things. GNOME 2 was pretty nice too in its own ways. After
| a lot of churn and changes, it is again re-emerging as a
| noteworthy desktop ecosystem. See https://apps.gnome.org.
| jamil7 wrote:
| As someone who's done a fair bit of native macOS
| development. I'd say modern Apple is also at least
| partially to blame by their lack of understanding for macOS
| and seeming disdain for it. SwiftUI 5 years later is still
| full of issues on mac and missing a lot of the things
| AppKit provided for free that made mac apps mac apps. A
| SwiftUI app on mac doesn't feel like a mac app in the way
| people are nostalgic for. While on iOS it chips away at
| UIKit every year.
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| I'm definitely not a macOS developer, but I've been a Mac
| user longer than most (back when it was called "system").
| What makes a "Mac app" feel like one has always been a
| constant evolution. Even in what I'd nostalgically
| consider the highest points in Mac experience.
|
| While SwiftUI apps do feel different from what came
| before, the underlying UX feels different too. A SwiftUI
| app intentionally built for macOS isn't nearly as
| disjoint an experience as say Catalyst, let alone
| Electron. And given how much the non-native experience
| has taken hold, there's no reason a new baseline native
| experience couldn't be established. The reason it won't
| isn't because of any specific technology, it's largely
| because there's basically no market for a rich native app
| ecosystem as that baseline. The entire economy of desktop
| software is stagnant.
|
| I do wonder if desktop as a use case becoming even more
| niche than it already has could see that trend start to
| reverse. It would be a smaller market, but that's exactly
| how the older macOS experience thrived.
| jamil7 wrote:
| Fair points, I'm probably inclined to vent about the tech
| more being closer to it.
|
| I do think that a niche will continue to exist as long as
| Apple offers an official way to build for it, for a
| variety of reasons.
| cenal wrote:
| I think the Mac App Store has been a terrible distribution
| system for indie devs... I never even think of going there
| for apps, nor do the non-technical folks I know.
|
| The iOS App store is a monopoly that is breaking down in
| Europe. I expect the landscape will continue to evolve
| globally and it will fall in other markets as well.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I think the Mac App Store has been a terrible
| distribution system for indie devs... I never even think of
| going there for apps, nor do the non-technical folks I
| know._
|
| Not sure what you mean. Everyone I know with a Mac gets
| their stuff from MAS and brew, only if forced go to some
| separate installer, like Adobe shit and specialized apps.
| From hardcore system programmers to graphic designers to
| home users...
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Happy Nova user here. I use it for our embedded C Code. I use the
| SeaDragon plugin with it. I was pretty frustrated trying to
| figure out how to configure VSCode to work with our toolchains,
| and I didn't want to learn CMake just so I could use CLion. We
| had been using the free version of QT IDE, but that got less and
| less useful/available.
| joshstrange wrote:
| I normally think of code editors in one of 3 categories:
|
| 1. Plain text editors that can be extended and turned into semi-
| IDE/IDEs. This includes tools like VS Code or Sublime Text.
|
| 2. Opinionated editors with some type of extensions/plugins
| (normally more limited that the other 2 sections). This includes
| tools like Coda or Nova.
|
| 3. Full IDEs with extensive extension support. This includes
| tools like JetBrains, Eclipse, etc.
|
| I prefer #3 but have used all 3 at different parts of my career.
| Started with Notepad++ then moved on to Coda, then Sublime, then
| Idea. Coda was really nice and I'm sure Nova is too if your needs
| are met by it. Meaning if you don't need support for anything
| outside of the core offerings or extensions available. Once you
| do need more then you have to either jump to 1 and build it
| yourself or jump to 3 and get most of it out of the box. #1 can
| be incredibly powerful if you are willing to put in the time and
| effort to set it up and keep it updated. Personally I want more
| "out of the box" than #1 and I'm very happy with the
| extensions/plugins available to me.
|
| Another observation I have is that #1 is going to be the most
| cutting edge followed by #3 with #2 bringing up the rear (largely
| due to market share). #2 can be an amazing place to be if what
| you are writing is well supported but if you need to step outside
| of the "happy path" you are going to have a rough time whereas
| #1/#3 can handle that without issue.
|
| Lastly, I will probably end up buying Nova at some point just to
| support Panic. I own a lot of their software (I use Transmit for
| pretty much all my file transfer needs) and their level of polish
| is unrivaled in the space they compete in. Their software always
| puts a smile on my face. Something that a lot of people don't
| seem to know is they are also the company behind the games
| Firewatch [0] and Untitled Goose Game [1] as well the Playdate
| [2]. They are a really cool company.
|
| [0] https://www.firewatchgame.com/
|
| [1] https://goose.game/
|
| [2] https://play.date/
| crtasm wrote:
| They also published this gem recently:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_Goodness_You're_Here!
| rasdbiouqwb-123 wrote:
| Is there a single code editor that provides the same experience
| with Remote SSH and Devcontainers as vscode?
|
| This is the first thing I look for when considering the
| alternative
| renewedrebecca wrote:
| IntelliJ definitely handles SSH-based development. I use it
| every day. Not sure about containers though, as I don't use
| them at all.
| dang wrote:
| Related. Others?
|
| _Is Panic done with Nova? (Native Mac text editor)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41506472 - Sept 2024 (1
| comment)
|
| _Nova - a native macOS code editor from Panic_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37902938 - Oct 2023 (1
| comment)
|
| _Nova 9_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30701613 - March
| 2022 (99 comments)
|
| _Nova by Panic_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30066298
| - Jan 2022 (257 comments)
|
| _Nova by Panic_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24495330
| - Sept 2020 (542 comments)
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| I tried to make it work for me working with Rails and could never
| achieve anything close to the productivity I get with RubyMine. I
| understand these two products are in completely different
| leagues, but I thought it might be interesting to try the native
| alternative... It just was never really viable for me to work
| with... even for simple quick editing, the load time is to much
| compared to any slimer editor... I was happy to contribute with a
| licence for a native product, since I believe in that, so no loss
| really...
| manchmalscott wrote:
| Does anyone have experience using this to develop with elixir /
| phoenix liveview?
| nikolay wrote:
| I couldn't stand their unnative looks so I stopped paying (and
| not using it). The tabs in the titlebar are hideous!
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