[HN Gopher] Coffee Stats - Maximize Caffeine Intake and Get to B...
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Coffee Stats - Maximize Caffeine Intake and Get to Bed at Night
Author : Blaze854
Score : 164 points
Date : 2024-09-22 20:56 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Here's the thing: never mind getting to bed, that will happen
| when you are tired enough.
|
| How about sleeping through the night? A different function with
| different math.
|
| My model is caffeine is well-known for having a half-life, from
| three to six hours depending. That means a geometric fall in
| effective caffeine in your system after you go to sleep (you
| don't continue ingesting caffeine in your sleep do you? Sleep-
| brewing?)
|
| What is the function for 'tired enough'? That is, how does
| 'sleepiness' decline over the sleep period? Because, when the
| functions cross (sleepiness drops below the caffeine line) then
| Awake! That's often about 3AM for me.
|
| If the sleepiness function is a different time-constant, or is
| more nearly linear (as I suspect, as long as you get enough
| cobbled-together hours of sleep you are functional which sounds
| like a simple unweighted sum) then inevitably sleepiness will
| fall faster (cross the caffeine-left-in-system curve).
|
| At that point you can get up, knock around doing whatever,
| getting sleepier again. Once caffeine drops below your remaining
| sleepiness you can get a few more winks.
|
| And wake up shortly after, another hour or half-hour, whatever.
| Repeat the rest of the night in ever-shorter cycles as your
| curves both approach the x-axis.
|
| Anyway it describes my sleep behavior nearly perfectly.
| jaggederest wrote:
| And there are at least 3 different metabolic rates for
| caffeine, rapid, standard, and slow. As a holder of the slow
| gene, none of these calculators work for me since for me
| caffeine has a ~9 hour half life. Caffeine after about 11 am is
| a bad plan.
| bigiain wrote:
| Pretty sure there's some age related effects too. Over the
| last ~20 years I've gone from being happily able to drink
| coffee after dinner, through not being able to drink it after
| 5pm or so, and now to having the espresso machine
| automatically shut off at 2:30pm - otherwise my sleep quality
| plummets.
|
| I'm 57 now, I started noticing poor sleep related to late
| night coffee in my mid 30s. I do got fairly hard earlier in
| the day though, I've usually had 4 double espressos
| (somewhere between 17-21g of beans) by mid morning, and
| usually another one or two before my current self imposed
| 2:30pm cut off.
| jaggederest wrote:
| Yeah it's well known that liver enzyme efficiency declines
| slightly with age. Also you may unknowingly run into
| medications that inhibit it, which gets more likely as you
| age and accumulate chronic issues requiring medication.
|
| I'm envious of your 100 grams of beans a day consumption -
| if I have more than about 10g / one single espresso I'm a
| wreck for the entire day! The area-under-curve for slow
| metabolizers is 9 times larger - 3x the duration, 3x the
| concentration.
| err4nt wrote:
| It's so funny but encouraging to read this. I started
| drinking coffee in college and could easily finish a whole
| pot, or have 3 Starbucks venti drip coffees in a day, but I
| was not sensitive to caffeine at all and could sleep right
| after. It also didn't seem to have that wake-up alertness
| effect either
|
| Then something changed, and now I am sensitive to it like a
| normal person. It does wake me up after a sip or two I can
| feel it, and I can easily have 'too much' if I have 2-3
| cups in too short of a timespan, so I've had to learn to
| slow down.
|
| Having said all of this, my personal 'last call' is 6pm,
| with the idea that I will be able to sleep at 12-1am. But
| if I drink coffee after 6pm I might be delaying that
| bedtime a little.
|
| It will be interesting to learn more about the effects of
| how much, and how long. Should I be tapering off hours
| before 'last call'? What is the best 'last call' time in
| the day and should it be earlier? I'll have to track some
| of this and figure this out!
| ec109685 wrote:
| Given caffeine has a half life in the body, couldn't you
| have less coffee but drink it for longer in the day and
| have the same result?
| o_nate wrote:
| My problem isn't falling asleep, it's staying asleep.
| Restlessness at night has become more noticeable as I've
| gotten older. Cutting down on caffeine, especially later in
| the day, seems to have helped some. I now have one cup of
| coffee in the morning, and a cup or two of tea in the early
| afternoon. This is instead of the two cups in the morning
| and espresso in the afternoon that I used to have before.
| pfdietz wrote:
| You might try slow release melatonin. I've found
| melatonin increases the vividness of dreaming, though.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Or reduce the dosage. I've had much better sleep on 1mg
| than the 3+ mg you find most places.
| malfist wrote:
| Everyone is different, but if you aren't already, and
| have the time for it, try incorporating more physical
| exercise into your day. That helped me deal with
| restlessness at night
| Pawka wrote:
| Honestly, I've noticed how sensitive I am to caffeine when
| I have reduced my caffeine intake. I think that it is
| important to clean the body before starting to observe,
| understand, and make conclusions about how a particular
| thing affects the body. Let it be caffeine, alcohol, or
| anything else.
| dharma1 wrote:
| Caffeine metabolism becomes less effective as you age
| munksbeer wrote:
| This is interesting.
|
| One thing I am fairly sure about, the amount of caffeine
| makes a difference to my sleep quality. If I have a single
| cup of coffee in the morning, no more, then my sleep quality
| seems not to be impacted. If I have several cups of coffee,
| only in the morning, I feel great for the morning, very
| stimulated, but my sleep is impacted. I wake up with a
| buzzing several times a night and have never been able to
| understand what is causing the buzzing.
| Rinzler89 wrote:
| _> have never been able to understand what is causing the
| buzzing_
|
| Most likely it's the leftover caffeine still in your system
| that's beyond your personal threshold for quality sleep.
|
| I have the same issue. If I drink two double espressos very
| early in the morning and then no more after that for the
| rest of the day, I have no problem falling asleep at night
| but I keep waking up several times during the night with a
| buzz, while my gf can drink 3 coffees per day and an
| espresso after dinner and still sleep.
|
| The only way to get rid of this is reduce my caffeine
| intake to absolute zero, which is hard when you get the
| smell and taste of fresh single origin beans. I guess some
| people are just that much more sensitive to it than others,
| genetics be dammed. I wish there was a cheap way to measure
| the caffeine content in the coffees I make so I can
| precisely determine my personal threshold.
| munksbeer wrote:
| > have no problem falling asleep at night but I keep
| waking up several times during the night with a buzz.
|
| Yes, that's me. I can fall asleep, but I wake up a lot.
| lecunn wrote:
| Just curious, but how do you know that you are a "holder of
| the slow gene"?
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Probably though 23andMe and the CYP450 enzyme CYP1A2.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6212886/
| jaggederest wrote:
| Actually went through fullgenomes.com - they apparently
| don't offer exome sequencing any more but for under $1200
| getting your genome sequenced is interesting.
|
| If you ask anyone who works in genetics, though, they'll
| advise you never to do it. It can be bad news, but
| there's virtually no good news there.
| dunk010 wrote:
| It's useful to have as a resource that you can dip into;
| for instance to check a specific thing like "how fast do
| I metabolise caffeine (bad example as youc can get that
| from a SNV checking service like 23&Me. However, never
| ever EVER dump your whole genome into a program that will
| output every match for some potential condition. Now
| that's not for the reason you might immediately think
| ("Oh no look at all the bad stuff"), but rather because
| the databases that tools like this use are pretty chock
| full of junk where some researcher threw in a reference -
| along with a few thousand others - to say that their
| particular piece of research implicates this gene at this
| poistion with this variant. I've seen it with my own
| eyes, and a lot of it is very low quality. You therefore
| need highly curated databases where the genotype-
| phenotype associations are well-defined and thoroughly
| researched. You'll spend the rest of your life either
| trying to prove/disprove every potential false positive,
| or just worrying yourself needlessly. So, yeah, it's not
| a bad resource to have if you can be responsible with it.
| bick_nyers wrote:
| Hmm, now I'm interested in seeing if an LLM could be
| finetuned to give an effective quality score on such a
| study.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| I had mine run twice through 23andMe just to make sure
| they didn't get something wrong. I tried to get my full
| genome once but the company screwed me over.
|
| And I take exception to your "no good news".
|
| I discovered a gene polymorphism that led to the
| discovery the reason for my immune deficiency and mood
| disorder.
|
| I found it gave me agency as well since I know that these
| genes are all risk genes and not fully determinant genes.
| jaggederest wrote:
| It's funny because your post in another thread is one of
| the reasons I brought it up here.
|
| I would regard that as one of the exceptions in the
| "virtually no" caveat.
| bick_nyers wrote:
| Nowadays whole genome sequencing can be done for $300-400
| (for 30x WGS, with 100x around $1000?), it's been on my
| TODO list for a few years.
| jaggederest wrote:
| a) personal experience, also my mom carries it. b) I had my
| exome sequenced in 2018, and Promethease generated a report
| from it that showed slow metabolizer in cyp1a2
| dotancohen wrote:
| Try drinking more water. When I drink a lot of water, I feel
| that I can drink a cup much later in the evening and sleep
| much better at night. I highly suspect that the water intake
| and release washes caffeine away with it (e.g. helps with
| whatever mechanism caffeine is removed be it filtration,
| chemical, metabolism, etc). There are lots of other benefits
| to remaining well-hydrated, I wish that I understood this
| decades ago.
| sokka_h2otribe wrote:
| Mm, there is more than one function fwiw you're looking at.
| Biological processes are complicated.
|
| You may enjoy
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9541543/ which
| explains more than I can
| mindslight wrote:
| This is such a foreign way of looking at caffeine to me. I've got
| no problems falling asleep. My constraint is that the more
| caffeine I have today, the more I will need tomorrow morning to
| even get started feeling like a person.
| j45 wrote:
| Well said. I find starting the day with hydration helps me
| understand where I actually am in terms of rest before
| caffiene.
|
| The advice going around to try and delay coffee for the first
| 90 minutes after waking seems to make a difference for me too,
| any unprocessed adenosine can be handled by my brain, and then
| caffeine is ready.
|
| One explanation: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/maximizing-
| your-morning-coffe...
| senectus1 wrote:
| same here.. i can consume a caffiene ladened drink and go to
| sleep no issues.
| bigiain wrote:
| Question, how old are you? I lost the ability to be able to
| drink coffee late at night and still sleep well in my
| mid/late 30s.
|
| Also, coffee power naps are totally a thing, I get a real
| boost if I drink a coffee and immediately lie down to sleep,
| then get woken up 25-30 mins later when the caffeine is doing
| it's thing. Definitely end up feeling better and able to
| concentrate deeper into the afternoon when I do that round
| lunchtime, compared to taking a nap without first having
| coffee.
| corobo wrote:
| idk what other quirks you've got but this one turned out to
| be an adhd symptom for me lol
|
| Coffee actually works on me now I'm on stimulant medication
| haha
| voidUpdate wrote:
| I've found that high caffeine drinks make me very sleepy.
| I'm still trying to get hold of some kind of ADHD
| medication
| corobo wrote:
| Yup, I could easily finish a meal out or whatever with
| coffee or two with no worries on how it'll affect my
| sleep (if anything the stimulation brought my dopamine up
| enough _to_ sleep)
|
| First day I was put on (low dose) stimulant meds I slept
| for 16 hours haha
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| Tolerance was my only issue for the longest time too. But in
| the last few years I started to get mild insomnia in the
| beginning of the night if I had coffee late in the day. It
| wasn't making me feel active or awake but just unable to fall
| asleep even if I was tired. So I'd spend about 2-3 hours unable
| to fall asleep while tired. Now my cutoff is actually 11:00 and
| I try not to have any after that
| carabiner wrote:
| This is called tolerance. You require more caffeine just to
| reach baseline and it no longer confers any stimulation.
| alkonaut wrote:
| I have some of those friends too. They can drink coffee at 11pm
| and sleep at 11.30. Meanwhile I can't sleep until 8 hours after
| drinking coffee. I don't know whether this is differing
| sensitivity to coffee or something else (better production of
| whatever it is that makes you tired at night perhaps).
|
| A clear and curious correlation is this: The same people that
| can drink coffee late can and do take naps during the day too.
| That is: if they lie down in the middle of the afternoon, they
| could sleep for a little while. That's completely foreign to
| me, I have never in my soon 50 year life been able to take a
| daytime nap (at least not since I was 5). It's curious that it
| seems like a related capability, in my small sample.
| aliljet wrote:
| Does this work to assess each individual'd actual caffeine half
| life? Every individual is metabolizing caffeine at a different
| rate...
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| Line 6 of readme.md: Assumptions The
| script works on some generalized assumptions that would be
| difficult to take into account.
| shlant wrote:
| why read anything when you can just ask the comments and make
| someone else do the work? /s
| err4nt wrote:
| As long as you're consistent enough, if you use this tool for a
| while could you learn how to tune the value it gives you? E.g.
| if you know you need extra time, or less time you can take that
| into account when reading this.
| danielbarla wrote:
| Indeed, and the variance on this number is surprisingly large.
| From [1]:
|
| > The mean half-life of caffeine in plasma of healthy
| individuals is about 5 hours. However, caffeine's elimination
| half-life may range between 1.5 and 9.5 hours, while the total
| plasma clearance rate for caffeine is estimated to be 0.078
| L/h/kg (Brachtel and Richter, 1992; Busto et al., 1989). This
| wide range in the plasma mean half-life of caffeine is due to
| both innate individual variation, and a variety of
| physiological and environmental characteristics that influence
| caffeine metabolism (e.g., pregnancy, obesity, use of oral
| contraceptives, smoking, altitude).
|
| On the one end of the scale, it'd be nigh-undetectable within a
| few hours, and on the other end, significantly present for 24
| hours+. I suspect estimating this number is also fairly
| difficult. I mean, I have some idea of the _outcome_ of what
| happens if I drink coffee at say 6PM, but I have little way of
| reversing this into a half-life number.
|
| [1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/
| ac130kz wrote:
| Or drink green tea that negates these effects via l-theanine
| automatically.
| astura wrote:
| The more likely explanation is that green tea is just much
| lower in caffeine.
|
| l-theanine is available in pills & powder, which can be
| consumed with coffee.
| pratio wrote:
| This looks like a windows only app, here's another source, that
| runs on the browser. https://www.gkbrk.com/wiki/caffeine-
| halflife/.
|
| Not affiliated, I just use it
|
| Also, Smokers metabolise caffeine faster.
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/657717/
| adamnew123456 wrote:
| They only have Windows binaries, but it's just Python 3 with
| Tkinter. Should work anywhere if you have a GUI-enabled Python
| (eg python3-tkinter).
| niemandhier wrote:
| Cool. But to guard your sleep a bit more than just caffeine blood
| concentration is needed.
|
| Caffeine will influence your sleep schedule by influencing your
| cicardian clock via its effect on the underlying signaling.
|
| That effect stacks with that of bright light etc, so half-life is
| not enough.
|
| Rule of thump: 2 espressos 3h before normal bedtime will delay
| your sleep by ca. 40 minutes even without bright light.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4657156/#:~:tex....
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| A note about caffeine and adenosine. What keeps you awake is that
| adensosine turns into inosine via Adensoine Deaminase (which
| needs zinc). Inosine ends up inhibiting the GABA receptor[1].
|
| [1]https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02255859
|
| When I drink caffeine I get mild hallucinations and my blood
| pressure skyrockets.
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8421806/
| froh wrote:
| great! now, has anybody found apps to approximate caffeine
| contents from bean, roast and prep?
|
| this could be a basis for computation:
|
| How Much Caffeine in Coffee Cup? Effects of Processing
| Operations, Extraction Methods and Variables
|
| Carla Severini, Antonio Derossi, Ilde Ricci, Anna Giuseppina
| Fiore and Rossella Caporizzi
|
| Reviewed: 05 April 2017 Published: 21 June 2017
|
| DOI: 10.5772/intechopen.69002
|
| open access:
|
| https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/55623
| bilsbie wrote:
| Coffee must have a very different half life in me. Even 400mg in
| the morning won't completely leave my system over 24 hours. So it
| seems to gradually build up and by the fourth day of 400 mg I
| can't sleep at all.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Everyone is different. I can't tolerate the amount in decaf
| coffee.
| bilsbie wrote:
| I don't have a link handy but I was just reading that broccoli
| can speed up caffeine metabolism!
|
| Someone should do a test.
|
| More broadly we should be researching products to increase
| caffeine metabolism. It would have a huge market.
| delichon wrote:
| I had a >300mg caffeine/day energy drink habit for a few of
| years. It took around six months to get past the additional
| fatigue after quiting. There seems to be some long term effect on
| me way beyond the half life. Does everyone else get past the
| effects of going cold turkey in a matter of hours?
| hbs18 wrote:
| Would gradually decreasing the amount of caffeine consumed have
| made quitting the habit easier?
| e1ghtSpace wrote:
| I quit caffeine in January and it took me about the same - 6
| months for the fatigue to go away - though I would say it
| gets much easier after 3 months. I think gradual decrease
| would make it easier but it would take longer. You might need
| to step down to one cup of coffee/tea a day for 6 months
| before quitting. I ended up mixing small amounts of instant
| coffee with decaf instant coffee so that at the end of the
| day it was like I had only consumed one cup of coffee. I only
| did that for a few weeks and then just quit altogether and
| still got huge fatigue. I have recently started going for
| runs almost every day and that has helped me a lot so you may
| be in a better position if you exercise. I tried lifting
| weights for ages but couldn't get into it then I switched to
| running and found that to be way better at reducing fatigue
| for me.
| jessyco wrote:
| Not a chance. The body has to adapt and start producing
| chemicals naturally again which it hasn't. You'll also have to
| go through the addiction side effects of the habit which can be
| hard for your mental health. In my experience it's taken about
| 2 weeks for my body to adjust and get rid of the side
| effects... but then again _sips coffee_ I 've not stopped for
| to long.
| systems_glitch wrote:
| I went cold turkey after developing a facial tic and realizing
| I was consuming 1000 - 1200 mg of caffeine a day (mostly
| coffee, French press and canned, with some energy drinks too).
| I was 100% not aware that caffeine is physically addictive and
| causes receptor changes in your brain. Aside from withdrawal
| symptoms (joint aches and pains for me), the fatigue didn't
| fully go away after several months.
|
| What did "fix" it was bringing it up to my doctor at my yearly
| checkup -- I explained that my mystery joint pains from a few
| years ago were almost certainly physical symptoms of caffeine
| withdrawal. This led to "why in the world were you consuming
| that much?!" questions and an eventual diagnosis of adult ADHD
| (likely lifelong and never diagnosed). 10 mg of generic ritalin
| twice a day and not only is the no-caffeine fatigue gone, but I
| basically don't tolerate caffeine anymore and have zero desire
| to consume it. Fortunately the local coffee roaster has a decaf
| :P I love coffee with or without the caffeine.
| ectospheno wrote:
| My last non-decaf drink was early July. Went from ~1000 mg a
| day to ~60. Change in sleep was pretty dramatic. I am sleepy
| every evening. Sleepy during the day just means I'm bored. I
| wake up feeling more rested.
|
| The third day quitting was rough. Other than that it was
| pretty easy. Now my biggest complaint is finding decaf when
| I'm out.
| toyg wrote:
| _> my biggest complaint is finding decaf when I'm out_
|
| I've been drinking decaf for a long time (now exclusively
| so), and this is a real issue sadly. Even when you go to a
| regular coffeeshop that has it, it's often been roasted and
| ground aaaaages ago (because of low demand) and then very
| loosely preserved, which results in drinks that taste bad
| and are potentially unsafe.
| highcountess wrote:
| It's minimal, but just FYI; caffeine free coffee still has
| small amounts of caffeine.
| cruffle_duffle wrote:
| Not to intrude but I highly recommend you "play around" with
| longer acting ADHD meds. Generic short acting Ritalin is the
| worst. It doesn't last long and you can "feel it go away".
| There are much better meds that have the same underlying drug
| but in much better delivery mechanisms.
|
| I'm sure you've done the homework but if anybody is reading
| who hasn't... if generic short acting ritalin works, great!
| You know you respond to stimulant adhd meds. Now go find a
| better long acting one... focalin xr, adderal XR, vyvanse,
| etc...
| TinkersW wrote:
| Hum I sometimes just don't drink coffee for a week or whatever,
| and never noticed any symptoms
| systems_glitch wrote:
| As a heavy caffeine consumer since at least middle school (I'm 37
| currently): consider why you're wanting so much and maybe talk to
| your doctor about it. Turns out I was dealing with ADHD probably
| my whole life and caffeine abuse was a cope.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Though ADHD meds tend to have even more extreme physiological
| effects on the body than a bunch of caffeine. But at least, in
| return, they work.
| Dowwie wrote:
| I've been replacing most of my morning coffee with yerba mate.
| Yerba Mate isn't a roller coaster ride of highs and lows but a
| smooth, elevated sense of caffeine alertness.
| filcuk wrote:
| I would have like that, but trialing it for several weeks it
| seems too much effort and caution is required (I.e. easier to
| ruin a brew). I take <5 minutes to make a coffee from roasted
| beans, whilst yerba required expertly making a stable mound,
| priming an isolated kettle, then pumping water in slowly
| throughout the day as to not over-extract.
|
| Does it get much better with experience?
| swah wrote:
| 11 seconds mate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laZ72qWdBSQ
| flobosg wrote:
| Don't overthink it: add some yerba mate into a container, put
| the straw ( _bombilla_ ), use a thermos to pour some hot
| water[1], sip it, pour again.
|
| [1]: Or cold if you fancy -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terer%C3%A9
| dharma1 wrote:
| There's also Guayusa which is pretty much same routine as tea
| flobosg wrote:
| Mate cocido as well:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_cocido
| astura wrote:
| Caffeine sensitivity and metabolism is highly, highly
| individualized, and it's affected by medications, etc. Its a much
| better idea to learn your own body tolerance/limits than rely on
| a generic app. It will vary.
|
| You might also have many other reasons to limit caffeine besides
| being able to sleep at night - heart issues or migraines for
| example. An app can't take these sorts of things into account.
|
| Caffeine pretty much doesn't effect me, so I will have a cup of
| coffee and go right to bed if I want to. I also can be a regular
| consumer for weeks-to-months and stop suddenly and have none of
| the terrible withdrawal symptoms people always talk about.
| devops000 wrote:
| Why not a web app?
| alienlike wrote:
| The HiCoffee app for iOS has been a great resource for me. It
| allows parameterized inputs for your personalized caffeine half-
| life, bedtime, bedtime caffeine levels, and daily caffeine limit.
| As you log your intake, it shows a nice chart of caffeine in your
| body throughout the day. The visualization has really helped me
| understand how caffeine is affecting me, and it has been very
| helpful in curbing my caffeine intake when it has gotten away
| from me. As an added bonus, the app has a lot of caffeine data on
| common drinks on the market.
| xpe wrote:
| Does anyone have personal experience or an understanding of why
| sometimes coffee in the afternoon actually results in a feeling
| of perceived tiredness?
| xvedejas wrote:
| This is known as a "paradoxical" reaction:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction
| toyg wrote:
| From what I understand (I'm not a scientist), caffeine doesn't
| "give" you energy, but rather makes your body _ignore the
| tiredness_ , by turning off some of the machinery that would
| make you feel tired.
|
| By having coffee in the morning and then in the afternoon, you
| build a "high" of caffeine that forces most of your "alert
| systems" to shut down. Once the peak wears off though, your
| body starts remembering to alert you to tiredness, which by
| then is often multiplied by the fact that by ignoring tiredness
| you've pushed your system hard when it was already tired. Hence
| you might feel like crashing.
|
| On top of that, caffeine de-hydrates, so if you've not had
| enough water, your body will start to crawl.
|
| On top of that, a lot (most?) people will have sugar with their
| coffee, and often quite a lot of it. Sugar can cause similar
| "crashes", particularly in the obese (like me), and obviously
| this combines with the abovementioned items.
| martinpw wrote:
| > From what I understand (I'm not a scientist), caffeine
| doesn't "give" you energy, but rather makes your body ignore
| the tiredness, by turning off some of the machinery that
| would make you feel tired.
|
| I have heard this too, but it doesn't _feel_ like this to me,
| it feels like a stimulant getting me to a state above and
| beyond the one I would be in without the caffeine. There are
| also a lot of references to caffeine as a stimulant. So what
| is really going on?
| vren wrote:
| Are you having coffee with milk? Casein/whey allergies affect a
| single-digit number of the population and can lead to feelings
| of sluggishness. Try black/almond/oat/etc.
| dr_orpheus wrote:
| Yeah, I have had this feeling as well. I don't think it is a
| direct cause of the coffee consumption and is more of an
| association that the tiredness is still building rapidly at the
| time you decide you need an afternoon pick-me-up. There is a
| hysteresis in the caffeine actually kicking in leading to the
| perception that drinking that cup of coffee in the afternoon is
| making you more tired.
|
| My understanding (I don't have any experience in any
| bioscience, just an avid coffee consumer) is caffeine works
| because it blocks receptors of adenosine which has a depressive
| effect and is a signaler that makes you tired. While the
| caffeine is blocking these receptors, the adenosine is still
| building up. So once the caffeine starts to wear off all of the
| adenosine comes rushing in to those receptors and you start to
| crash. Drinking more caffeine after you have started to feel
| tired now takes longer for the caffeine molecules to start to
| muscle in and start filling those receptors again. If you can
| start to clear out the tiredness receptors ahead of the
| caffeine hitting them it will make the caffeine more effective.
| This has led some people to start taking a "coffee nap" where
| you drink you afternoon coffee, immediately take a short nap to
| help the caffeine be even more effective when you wake up.
| digging wrote:
| Have you tried a "coffee nap"? I find that if I just drink
| caffeine to counteract building tiredness, it's not going to
| help. Like sponging up water from a broken faucet. But if I lay
| down and rest (this doesn't have to include sleep, I set an
| alarm and let my body do what it needs, but the primary factor
| is giving your brain the peace it needs to process and flush
| stress accumulated through the day, in pseudoscientific terms),
| and then drink coffee, I'm reset and it can take effect.
|
| The "Coffee Nap" is where your drink a cup of coffee (quickly,
| I guess), then lay down for 10-20 minutes to rest, and by the
| time you get up the caffeine will begin to kick in. I find that
| process to be a bit more stress-inducing.
| avandekleut wrote:
| Im the same, caffeine after ~1pm results in afternoon sleepies.
| I have ADHD and caffeine affects me differently.
| aantix wrote:
| Please take in to account slow vs fast caffeine metabolizer.
|
| "CYP1A2 Gene: Fast or Slow Caffeine Metabolizer?"
|
| https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/
|
| This is one of those subjects where people argue past each "I can
| drink a cup of coffee and sleep like a baby!" vs "One cup of
| coffee in the morning and my sleep quality is impacted". And
| neither understands how the other can have a vastly different
| personal experience.
|
| This extends to any online discussion regarding weight loss/gain,
| politics, wars, etc.
| lagniappe wrote:
| I think this is me, interesting.
| wnolens wrote:
| Oh wow, I'm surprised that this is not common knowledge given
| how common coffee is. I didn't even know it was a thing.
|
| File me under "A cup of coffee feels like a small dose of MDMA"
| seper8 wrote:
| Lucky you! LOL. Hope it doesnt come with the nasty comedown
| :P
| wnolens wrote:
| It's a thin silver lining.
|
| I can't have coffee multiple days in a row, else I'll
| experience panic attacks (and in that moment i think I'm
| going to die, nearly reaching for a phone to call 911). And
| can't partake in coffee ~95% of the time (friends don't
| have decaf, a ton of nicer coffee shops don't either, and
| often decaf is neglected so i'm drinking black water). I
| still love the taste of coffee, so i've kinda been robbed
| of that unless i'm at home and can make it myself.
| aantix wrote:
| 1) Slow metabolizers of caffeine have an increased risk of
| hypertension or a cardiac event with coffee consumption.
| Whereas fast metabolizers may have net positive health
| benefits from coffee consumption.
|
| 2) We genuinely lack fidelity on so much subjects that we
| confidently pontificate about. I've read several reports that
| coffee is a "net positive". Imagine niavely following that
| advice your entire life only to realize you're a slow
| metabolizer and you've been increasing your risk by
| consuming?
|
| There probably so many aspects to our lives that have genetic
| components that no one knows about or acknowledges. Even to
| the point where people will shame others.
|
| "I don't understand, I can drink a whole pot of coffee before
| bed and sleep like a baby. You'll be fine."
|
| "I don't understand, why can't you just eat less and exercise
| more and then maybe you wouldn't be a fatty?"
|
| They have no clue.
| embwbam wrote:
| For anyone else who discovers they are a fast metabolizer of
| coffee: try eating a big breakfast before drinking coffee to
| slow absorption.
|
| I wanted to be a coffee drinker for YEARS, but it made me
| really high, and I felt super tired later in the day. I don't
| know why I didn't connect the dots until I searched my
| genome, but once you know whether you are a fast or slow
| metabolizer you can play all sorts of games. I can now drink
| coffee _before_ dinner, and the crash hits right at bedtime.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| For me, I found the secret was eating anything other than
| cereal (or egg & toast) for breakfast. Those seem to make
| me jittery. Eating something like yesterday's dinner
| leftovers for breakfast turns the coffee into an on switch
| instead of leaving me exhausted but adding jitters and
| sleeplessness.
| ben7799 wrote:
| I think people simplify this too much. Fast metabolizer doesn't
| mean it just doesn't effect you.
|
| I am an ultra-fast metabolizer on CYP1A2 based on genetic tests
| and yet I can still easily get negative side effects from
| caffeine. This is not an on/off thing, most of these
| metabolizers are rated on scale of 4 or 5 levels IIRC. I have
| been told the understanding of some of these metabolizer tests
| is not that great. They can test for it but they don't really
| understand how it changes things that well. The bigger thing
| with these tests is they point towards people of different
| genetic backgrounds needing different drugs or different doses
| of some drugs when it comes to certain treatments and that
| typical drug guidelines are heavily biased towards male
| patients with typical Northern European genetic
| characteristics. If you're an ultra-fast caffeine metabolizer
| there are apparently some drugs that don't work correctly on
| you.
|
| I typically try to limit myself to only 2 caffeine drinks a
| day.
|
| It's possible the tests can be wrong I guess. It's also
| possible I still metabolize it faster than usual but I have
| some other thing going on that makes me get jittery or anxious
| from caffeine easily. I suspect what happens is I just get a
| rush of the effects and then they wear off faster than usual
| but with a larger effect.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Also needs to take into account if/when you're exposed to
| nicotine since nicotine can affect caffeine metabolism by
| CYP1A2 depending on your genotype.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243019/
| aantix wrote:
| To determine whether you're a slow or fast caffeine metabolizer..
|
| Wait for a sale at Nebula.org. Get your whole genome sequenced.
| ~$200. Having your whole genome sequenced could have added
| benefits down the road.
|
| Download the .BAM file. It will be several gigabytes.
|
| Use WSG Extract to generate the 23andMe raw data files.
|
| https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/convert-whole-genome-file/
|
| Connect that data file to Genetic Life Hacks. Take a look at the
| article on CYP1A2. This will show you whether you're a slow
| metabolizer or not.
|
| https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/
|
| The linked data file at GLF never uploads to the server. All
| analysis is local, client side.
| smith7018 wrote:
| Thank you for this, I've wanted to do genetic testing for years
| but don't want it to be stored on anyone's server. Can you
| explain how it's not stored on any server? Like, you're
| downloading the .BAM file from Nebula; doesn't that mean they
| hold onto the data?
| petercooper wrote:
| Anyone who does the actual sequencing has the data. I think
| they mean the final service that does the _analysis_ runs
| locally in the browser. You still need to trust whoever does
| the sequencing.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| I think the point is to prevent the data from being linked
| to your identify (name, address etc.).
| tehjoker wrote:
| Your identity can be reconstructed from relative's
| samples. If you submit your sequence its out of your
| hands forever. The only way to do this privately is to do
| the sequencing in your own lab.
| uneoneuno wrote:
| I sequence my own genome in my own private lab. At least
| weekly. The rush when the sequencing begins. I almost
| can't help but sequence all over the place.
| aantix wrote:
| Nebula.org does the data sequencing.
|
| They support anonymous sequencing.
|
| https://nebula.org/anonymous-seq/
|
| Genetic Life Hacks provides the analysis on a number of
| health and disease related topics. Their analysis is simply
| allele matching for any given topic (string comparisons).
| It's all done within the browser.
|
| https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/faqs-about-
| genetics/#:~:tex...
| hiatus wrote:
| > They support anonymous sequencing.
|
| > https://nebula.org/anonymous-seq/
|
| The button to purchase says "coming soon" for me.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Same for me (in the US).
| borg16 wrote:
| this is wonderful.
|
| can i ask how you went about arriving at this workflow?
| taeric wrote:
| I'm curious if there is a basic set of tests you can do with
| drinking locally to know one way or the other, as well?
| aantix wrote:
| Measure your blood pressure.
|
| Measure before consumption. Take three different readings.
|
| Measure at one hour intervals after caffeine consumption.
|
| Fast metabolizers BP should return to baseline within a
| couple of hours.
|
| Mine would remain elevated for 10-12 hours.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Did you measure your baseline blood pressure without
| caffeine as well?
| aantix wrote:
| Yes.
| earleybird wrote:
| How many hours/days/weeks should you be caffeine free for
| the baseline BP?
| aantix wrote:
| A couple of days.
|
| I usually have to go through a withdrawal headache first.
| taeric wrote:
| I'm assuming elevated is purely relative to your baseline?
|
| Oddly, I don't think my blood pressure changes much at all.
| Will try this test again, though.
| Y_Y wrote:
| 23andme has a "report" about this called Caffeine Consumption.
| The markers they use are rs4410790 and rs2472297, whereas
| geneticlifehacks.com talks about rs762551. I'm not sure what to
| make of that, since that second 23andme one is "near" cyp1a2.
|
| https://you.23andme.com/reports/wellness2.caffeine_consumpti...
| onethumb wrote:
| This article seems to tie them together nicely:
| https://www.gbhealthwatch.com/Trait-Caffeine-Consumption.php
| candiddevmike wrote:
| You can also search for the CYP1A2 gene using Nebula's gene
| analysis: https://portal.nebula.org/reporting/gene-analysis
|
| Look at the variants to see if you have rs762551--that means
| you're a rapid metabolizer.
| mapt wrote:
| When I think about sequencing, I think about verifiability.
| With anonymity blinkers on, you could give me several gigabytes
| of random data and I'd have limited recourse.
|
| Will Nebula give me an intelligible whole-genome data file if I
| happen to be a Golden Retriever?
| aantix wrote:
| Totally understand.
|
| Luckily I had previously completed 23andMe, so I could cross
| reference that data with that generated by Nebula/WSG
| Extract.
|
| My caffeine metabolism did match up.
| idiliv wrote:
| Is the "Ultra Deep" analysis worth it over the standard "Deep"
| analysis?
| wakefulsales wrote:
| nebula genomics uses chinese labs - would be careful about your
| data
| squigz wrote:
| Why?
| wslh wrote:
| Do you have other alternatives which are more privacy
| preserving? The last time I heard about 23andMe was here in HN
| [1].
|
| [1]
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=fal...
| squigz wrote:
| nebula.org privacy policy.
|
| https://nebula.org/blog/privacy-policy/
| karlzt wrote:
| Reminder: too much coffee will give you diarrhea.
| bschmidt1 wrote:
| Feature requests:
|
| - Let me save coffees I normally drink on file so I can just
| choose my regulars: "Temple pour over", "Starbucks Americano",
| etc. and it knows the ounces and mg of caffeine in that drink.
|
| - Let me define my wake/sleep times, or like the coffees keep a
| few saved times to easily choose from later.
|
| - After I drank the first coffee, it should ask me if I want
| another one at the optimal peak (unless it's too near to my sleep
| hour). Partner with DoorDash to fulfill the order.
|
| - The important part: Because DoorDash drivers will occasionally
| no-show, or drink the coffee themselves, you'll need some extra
| cash to cover costs, comp angry customers, etc. so you'll need a
| Series A. So we need to convert your UI into a ChatGPT wrapper
| that converses with the user in a friendly way, rather than in
| the VB6-esque UI I see here (as slick as it is).
| alkh wrote:
| I had a similar idea to track my caffeine intake(assuming that
| the half-life is 6 hours). The only question I haven't had time
| to look into yet is what is the biological effect of previously
| taken vs newly taken caffeine? Say I had a cup of coffee at 9 am
| and then have another one at 9+6 hours=3 pm. Assume that 1 cup of
| coffee has 90 mg of caffeine. Does it mean that at that moment, I
| will have to track 2 different half-lifes? That is, I have
| 90/2=45 mg of caffeine from cup #1 and 90 mg of caffeine from cup
| #2 at 3 pm. Should I just add those up and track the combined
| amount now or should it be kept separate? I am leaning towards
| the latter because I think that the effect(i.e. alertness) will
| be higher with the newly digested caffeine and not the one taken
| 6 hours ago? No idea how true this is though as I am not a
| biologist :)
| slwvx wrote:
| If I were to estimate my blood caffeine, I'd calculate the
| caffeine right before I took more, add that to the new
| caffeine, and use that in the exponential decay function.
| standardUser wrote:
| In my many years of consuming many drugs, no rule is more obvious
| than the fact that each person responds to different drugs
| differently, develops tolerances differently and develops
| addictions differently. The only way to understand drugs is to
| start from the position that my experience and your experience
| are almost certain to be different.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| Quitting caffeine was one of the best health decisions I've ever
| made. My sleep is much better and I have just way more energy in
| general than when I was a heavy coffee drinker. The craziest
| thing is now when I wake up in the morning... I'm just awake.
| There is no groggy pre-coffee malaise.
| mettamage wrote:
| How long did it take to not wake up groggy?
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| It took me about 3 months to get through the worst of the
| withdrawals and noticing sleep improvements.
| scop wrote:
| This is innovation
| byyoung3 wrote:
| 3pm as a limit seems to work pretty well for me.
| ulrischa wrote:
| But why a desktop app? A simple website would do the job
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