[HN Gopher] Show HN: Container Desktop - Podman Desktop Companion
___________________________________________________________________
Show HN: Container Desktop - Podman Desktop Companion
Author : istoica
Score : 427 points
Date : 2024-09-20 18:08 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (container-desktop.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (container-desktop.com)
| bradleyy wrote:
| While I'm basically fine with Colima on Mac, this seems like a
| nice alternative to Docker Desktop.
| veonik wrote:
| After some initial pains with colima, I tend to agree. Mostly,
| just needing to specify some VZ args[0] so I could run x86_64
| docker images on my M-series.
|
| Is there something in these desktop UIs that colima is
| completely missing?
|
| [0] `colima start --vm-type=vz --vz-rosetta`
| fragmede wrote:
| "some initial pains" = Colima VM running out of resources
| running kind, so I had to raise the CPU and RAM, and then
| raise the fd's in the VM itself to get it to work. but now it
| works!
| cjauvin wrote:
| Could this be the answer I needed to run an SQL Server image
| that refused to run on my M3 MBP? I was about to, sadly, try
| Docker Desktop, because of that.
| veonik wrote:
| That is exactly why I needed it, too! :D
|
| Be sure to increase RAM over the default 2GB as well, that
| SQL Server container is hungry and will crash without
| enough resources dedicated to it.
| dmonitor wrote:
| what does this offer that podman desktop does not?
|
| https://podman-desktop.io/
| gnulinux wrote:
| Last I checked podman's support of docker-compose.yml was very
| limited to say the least. Has it changed?
| scheme271 wrote:
| What parts did you find lacking? I haven't had any issues
| using podman-compose to launch stuff using unmodified docker-
| compose.yml files.
| mfenniak wrote:
| There are two approaches to using compose w/ podman:
|
| Replace docker-compose with podman-compose -- somewhat
| limited capabilities, but works in a lot of cases.
|
| Use docker-compose against podman w/ podman's system service,
| which provides a docker compatible API endpoint
| (https://docs.podman.io/en/v5.2.1/markdown/podman-system-
| serv...). This basically has full docker-compose
| capabilities, but, you do need run the socket service as a
| specific user account which end up running all the pods.
| 3np wrote:
| I found the most stable to be a third option: 'podman
| compose' with docker-compose-v2 cli "backend" connecting to
| the actual podman socket. This will be done if you run
| 'podman compose' with 'docker-compose' in PATH, and
| DOCKER_HOST set to your podman socke, since 'podman
| compose' will just shim through to whichever command it
| finds available.
|
| Both podman-compose (the Python project) and docker-
| compose-v1 have significant gaps in the compose spec.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Yeah, I'm using it and it's nearly everything I need.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| What does podman desktop offer that WSL does not (at least for
| those of us on Windows)?
| eterm wrote:
| Ease of use, even used as a GUI for WSL, that doesn't mean it
| doesn't add value.
| moondowner wrote:
| I've been using Rancher Desktop as an alternative to Docker
| Desktop, https://rancherdesktop.io/ on macOS and Windows, it's
| pretty solid.
|
| It has some kinks to work out but I got it working with IDEs too
| (e.g. the Intellij IDEA Docker Compose integration to work with
| it).
|
| What I also like is that existing scripts and etc that use the
| docker-compose cli work with Rancher Desktop too, as it uses
| nerdctl https://github.com/containerd/nerdctl
| manojlds wrote:
| Yup +1 for Rancher Desktop. Works as smooth as Docker Desktop
| on MacOS.
| SystemOut wrote:
| We just completed the switch to Rancher where I work. 1200ish
| engineers, mostly on Macs. So far it's worked out pretty
| well..fewer hiccups than I expected.
| justinclift wrote:
| Does it use the same "containers are really just running in a
| Linux VM" approach as Docker Desktop on macOS?
| 1oooqooq wrote:
| unless you run osx on a Linux kernel, it will always be so.
|
| not a personal attack on you, but it blows my mind how
| clueless the current generation of developers become after
| the docker phase.
| brianpan wrote:
| I don't understand this comment on any level.
|
| Containers will only ever be on a linux kernel or VM?
| Never natively on ANY other OS? Only Linux containers
| exist?
|
| Developers were more clueful about containers before
| Docker made them wildly popular?
| ahoka wrote:
| "Only Linux containers exist?"
|
| In practice, yes.
| maccard wrote:
| Windows containers absolutely exist in practice.
| justinclift wrote:
| > unless you run osx on a Linux kernel, it will always be
| so
|
| Linux is not the only OS that has container like things.
| FreeBSD had jails years earlier, Solaris had something
| else which I don't remember any more, and for all I know
| macOS may have their own native equivalent as well.
|
| Bear in mind that Apple introduced an official hypervisor
| framework a few releases ago, so they could be doing
| something similar for containers. It wouldn't be a bad
| idea. :)
| fragmede wrote:
| personal attack or not, you could have just left that
| last bit off and had a good comment.
|
| There's always been a mythos of a _true_ developer. Here
| 's a rant from 1983 about how real programmers don't use
| Pascal.
| https://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html
|
| Kids these days...
| aaqureshi wrote:
| Been using Rancher Desktop for 2 years, can definitely
| recommend this as an alternative to Docker Desktop.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Currently it is the best alternative I have used, in what
| concerns the same experience as Docker Desktop on Windows.
| PufPufPuf wrote:
| Rancher Desktop is great, because kubernetes just works. Not
| only that, you can "docker build" an image, and then
| immediately spin it up as a kubernetes pod, without spending
| ten minutes googling the correct commands to correctly "load"
| the image.
| cortesoft wrote:
| I really like the whole Rancher ecosystem. Setting up a cluster
| with rancher is such a pleasant experience.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| If you're on macOS, then Orbstack is a nice alternative to Docker
| Desktop
|
| (I'm not affiliated with Orbstack)
| cweagans wrote:
| Another enthusiastic +1 for OrbStack. It's fantastic.
| throwanem wrote:
| GPU support would be a real benefit, but for anything not
| needing that, Orbstack's become my strong preference.
| cweagans wrote:
| Is there anything you can actually _do_ with the Apple GPUs
| outside of macOS? I know the Asahi Linux person was working
| on a driver for it, but is it in a useful state?
| rahen wrote:
| Yes. In fact it's accelerated and supports OpenGL 4.6
| while macOS tops at OpenGL 4.1, and really mostly only
| supports Metal nowadays. With Asahi you can use OpenGL
| and Vulkan.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/asahi-linux-
| projects...
| cweagans wrote:
| Oh neat! Thanks for the tip!
| alexandre_m wrote:
| It's nice, but only for personal use.
|
| Be aware that you need a license if you use it at work.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| As is true with a lot of developer tooling. Including Docker
| Desktop itself.
| corytheboyd wrote:
| I would love to use it but I loathe subscriptions, especially
| for something I'd need work to pay for. I would happily pay a
| one-time $50-100 and get a perpetual license so I don't have to
| deal with the headache...
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| IMO if Docker is important to you then Orbstack is worth it.
|
| The debug shell feature alone makes it better than any
| alternative, and hopefully that subscription money is put
| towards more unique features.
|
| https://docs.orbstack.dev/features/debug
| 1oooqooq wrote:
| if i understood that page, debug shell is... "exec" with a
| nicer .bashprofile and injected text editor binary???
| huimang wrote:
| It's an alternative to
| https://docs.docker.com/reference/cli/docker/debug/,
| which is also a paid feature.
|
| Debugging slim or distroless images is quite the pain, so
| a tool like this is worth it if you're frequently working
| on such images.
| tanduv wrote:
| It's installing additional packages which may not have
| been included in your base image.
|
| > Debug Shell works by injecting a debugging environment
| using: > NixOS for a large package collection, and
| flexibility with filesystem paths
|
| https://orbstack.dev/blog/debug-shell?utm_source=relnotes
| swyx wrote:
| colima is also good https://www.swyx.io/running-docker-without-
| docker-desktop
|
| also no affiliation and have not tried orbstack
| comprev wrote:
| Colima has been great to support x86 images on Apple Silicon
| like OracleDB 19, instead of building arm64 images.
|
| The flexibility of container runtimes and host architecture
| (via QEMU) has proven useful.
| lanstin wrote:
| Yeah, I use this to support extremely old C++ project on
| x86_64 docker images and it's tolerable if not speedy.
| istoica wrote:
| Colima offers the best experience for docker alternative.
| LIMA offers the equivalent of WSL, where both docker and
| podman are supported. I like LIMA a lot as I deal with both,
| but COLIMA rocks for simplicity. I think COLIMA + Container
| Desktop are perfect replacement on mac for traditional Docker
| Desktop users.
| bdcravens wrote:
| Switched to it, and paid for the license. I agree with others
| about not wanting to get subcriptioned to death, but I feel
| like it's worth $8/month.
|
| I've also used Colima, and if Orbstack wasn't an option, I'd be
| happy to keep using it.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Orbstack is wicked good. I love it. I compile to 4 platforms
| with it (Ubuntu/Mac x x86_64/arm) and it's the fastest
| emu/docker thing.
| rahen wrote:
| Of course Orbstack is fast, it uses LXD, not actual VMs. In
| fact, Orbstack on Mac is what made me switch to LXD (Incus)
| on Linux to replace Docker and virt-manager.
| cstrahan wrote:
| Wrong, Orbstack _does_ use VMs.
|
| https://docs.orbstack.dev/architecture
|
| > OrbStack uses a lightweight Linux virtual machine with a
| shared kernel to minimize overhead and save resources,
| similar to WSL 2 (Windows Subsystem for Linux).
| rahen wrote:
| No. It uses a VM to virtualize a Linux kernel running LXD
| containers. Those are not virtual machines.
|
| https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/461#issuecomm
| ent...
| cstrahan wrote:
| The VM you just referred to _is_ a virtual machine,
| that's what VM stands for.
|
| I think you forgot how this thread got started:
|
| > If you're on macOS, then Orbstack is a nice alternative
| to Docker Desktop
|
| We're talking about running OCI ("Docker compatible")
| images. The page you just linked to makes it apparent
| that you are talking about something orthogonal:
| OrbStack's "machines" feature
| (https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/).
|
| The original topic is that OrbStack's support for Docker
| containers is fast (implied: faster than Docker for
| Desktop), which cannot be explained by the lack of a VM,
| as both use a Linux VM to run one or more Docker
| containers.
| samz wrote:
| Rancher desktop is fine. I did migration within 30 minutes.
| koito17 wrote:
| Looks cool, but how is the Kubernetes support? One of the major
| reasons we use Docker Desktop at work is to host a local
| Kubernetes cluster with services deployed there. We also support
| Rancher Desktop since it uses k3s, and k3s is arguably a nicer
| Kubernetes distribution than the one set up by Docker Desktop.
|
| With that said, I have recently tried OrbStack, and it is able to
| start up near instantly, while Kubernetes spends at most 2
| seconds to start up. The UI is minimal, but it offers just enough
| to inspect containers, pods, services, logs, etc. It also is very
| lightweight on memory usage and battery. I personally cannot
| return to either Docker or Rancher Desktop after having tried
| OrbStack.
|
| OrbStack also allows using Kubernetes service domains directly on
| the host. So no need to use kubectl port-forward, and
| applications running on the host can use identical configuration
| to what's inside the Kubernetes cluster.
|
| The battery savings, dynamic memory usage, fast startup time, and
| QOL of OrbStack is pretty much my standard for a Docker Desktop
| alternative. I am not sure if container-desktop satisfies all of
| these requirements. (Rancher Desktop certainly doesn't)
| linkdd wrote:
| You should check out https://kind.sigs.k8s.io/ and
| https://k0sproject.io
| leonheld wrote:
| I love kind! Used it a lot when I was writing my thesis on
| Kubernetes schedulers.
| arjvik wrote:
| Curious to see your thesis!
| yard2010 wrote:
| Literally or figuratively?
| hu3 wrote:
| I'm torn between https://k0sproject.io and https://k3s.io to
| use in CI and production.
|
| Any suggestions or personal experience?
| PufPufPuf wrote:
| I'm a fan of k3s. Mostly because Rancher Desktop, but there
| are more useful features, like a full k3s distribution
| within a single docker container. It includes some nice QoL
| features, like pre-loading images from a mounted folder.
| Great for CI.
| linkdd wrote:
| k0s is especially easy to deploy thanks to k0sctl, whether
| it's single node clusters, or multi node clusters. I
| haven't looked back ever since I started using it.
| adhamsalama wrote:
| What about minikube?
| linkdd wrote:
| Minikube is more for dev environments than prod. So k0s
| over it anytime. For dev envs, I adopted KinD, I can even
| run it in CI for tests.
| JosephRedfern wrote:
| +1 for OrbStack, it's one of the few software subscriptions I
| pay for, and is worth every penny. Leagues head of Docker
| Desktop.
| nicwolff wrote:
| I demoed Orbstack to my whole department of 100+ engineers, now
| we've canceled our Docker Desktop account and switched everyone
| over. Zero complaints.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| Personally I just build all my software so it includes its
| dependencies and then you don't need docker or any complex image
| manager. Don't rely on a bunch of crap being installed in the
| system path! Much much simpler this way imho.
| diego_sandoval wrote:
| I think that's the right way to do it from the software
| distributor's side, but most software distributors don't do it
| like you.
|
| So, from a consumer's point of view, if you want to use their
| software, then docker is the lesser evil compared to all the
| others. Notably, it's much better than binaries with dynamic
| libraries that don't come included in the bundle itself.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| As a user, I'd rather use a container then figure out how to
| run a binary. The onboarding process is typically so much
| easier, and most enterprise folks already have container
| infrastructure in place. For big customers, getting a
| Kubernetes namespace can have significantly less friction
| than a VM these days.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| > then figure out how to run a binary
|
| It should never be more complicated than "run the binary".
| Running programs shouldn't require infrastructure or VMs or
| Docker images. Deploying a program should be, and can be,
| as simple as sharing a zip file, extracting, and running.
|
| It's not that hard!
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| > better than binaries with dynamic libraries that don't come
| included in the bundle itself.
|
| Binaries should always include the dynamic libraries they
| require. Docker is one way to include them. But you can also
| just include them the vanilla way. Works great! Very easy and
| reliable.
| borski wrote:
| Personally, I just ship every user a small Chromebook that runs
| my software so I can guarantee the environment is the same
| every time.
|
| (I get your point, but docker has made distribution way easier
| in a lot of ways, and you accept sole tradeoffs for that
| convenience)
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| You can have convenience and reliability with fewer
| tradeoffs!
| gnulinux wrote:
| I'm sorry but this doesn't work. Over the last 10 years so I
| was fucked over by countless "software that includes all its
| dependencies" that stopped working when I upgraded some other
| totally irrelevant software because "well duh it obviously uses
| system libC" or whatever. Examples: critical .AppImage binaries
| stopping working after random system upgrades. Nothing runs on
| my computer is ever fully isolated, not even Docker. So, any
| isolation guarantee I get is guarantee I'll take. You claim
| today that your software is isolated, but I don't know if 3
| years down the road I'll upgrade my freaking text editor and
| your program will stop working because that one library from
| 1987 has to be exactly version A.X but my text editor upgraded
| it to A.Y. Thanks but no thanks.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| > your program will stop working because that one library
| from 1987 has to be exactly version A.X but my text editor
| upgraded it to A.Y.
|
| Perhaps you misunderstand. This issue is fully solved by
| including dependencies and not relying on anything in the
| system path. Programs should not touch the system path. If a
| program requires library A.Y then it should include and use
| A.Y. But it should not touch the system path and thus should
| not impact any other program. Nor will it be impacted by
| other programs wanting A.Z.
| mook wrote:
| It's often literally not possible to ship everything. You
| wouldn't want to spin up a second X11 (or Wayland) server,
| for example, because you can't have two of them talk to the
| same video card device at the same time usefully.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| The number of things that can't be shipped is extremely
| small. And I don't think that Docker is a silver bullet
| for Wayland vs X11 issues? Although I'm not sure about
| the fine details as I don't have a ton of experience
| there. Shouldn't you be using an abstraction that can
| automatically support which ever is available?
|
| I tend to ship code that needs to run on Linux + macOS +
| Windows + Android. So Docker is a total non-option. And
| it's totally fine! Very easy in fact.
| mook wrote:
| It's the same thing everywhere -- there are some
| dependencies you can't ship. On Linux, you can't ship the
| window server (because you need to share it with all of
| the other apps also running). On mac, you can't ship Core
| Foundation. On Windows, kernel32.dll etc. I assume
| Android is similar -- I haven't tried figuring out what a
| purely static app on Android would be, since I think the
| bootstrap is Dalvik...
|
| It's literally impossible to _not_ depend on the system
| path.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| Let me rephrase. If a dependency can be bundled then it
| should be bundled.
|
| The "Linux Way" is to depend on a bunch of random garbage
| pooped by lord knows bullshit script into one of several
| global search paths. This is bad, stupid, and wrong.
| Programs should include as many of their dependencies as
| is possible.
|
| The number of dependencies that a program can not deploy
| and must assume are provided by the system are extremely
| minimal and special case. It's a short and static list.
|
| In general no script or program should add libraries into
| the global search paths. On Windows user programs do not
| add random crap to System32. On Linux the existence of
| /usr/lib is an abomination that should not exist.
|
| Is that better? I'm fairly certain you understand what
| I'm trying to say.
| skydhash wrote:
| I know that the Linux way is not perfect, but I don't
| know how companies can't do better than the distro
| maintainers. Most repositories packages are driven by
| some kind of build scripts. I don't expect it would be
| that hard of a job to create one for your software for
| the most popular ones. Anyone using obscure distros are
| familiar enough with Linux to do container or chroot
| environments. I like the fact that my environment is a
| complete one, not siloes where the developer is more than
| happy to let the software lingers. At least macOS force
| developers to upgrade, Microsoft's backward
| compatibility's promise is keeping so much crust around
| in the system.
| dpkirchner wrote:
| That's basically what a docker image does in a more formalized,
| isolated, and repeatable fashion.
| mtndew4brkfst wrote:
| In most scenarios it is definitely good-enough but even in
| just my own personal experiences over a decade I need to
| asterisk all three of your listed benefits.
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| True. But Docker comes with a lot of complexity. And it comes
| with a meaningful performance hit on macOS and Windows. And
| it doesn't work at all on Android/iOS.
|
| It's so sad that running software on Linux is so wildly
| complicated and unreliable than things like Docker had to be
| invented. :(
| madiele wrote:
| For most uses wsl2 on windows is pretty close to a bare
| metal instalation
|
| https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows11-wsl2-zen4
|
| wsl2 runs under the windows hypervisor as a vm, but so does
| windows since windows 11. So there should not be much
| performance issues from running stuff in windows vs wsl2.
| The major bottleneck is if you need to move files from and
| to the windows vm to the Linux vm
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| My interest in running Linux binaries on Windows is zero.
| I run native windows binaries. Why would I want to run
| via WSL2 when I can do it natively?
|
| Why people constantly insist on adding unnecessary layers
| of abstraction is beyond me.
| madiele wrote:
| Nobody is forcing you to use anything I just wanted to
| underline that the performance hit you mentioned is not
| really there, as we are in a public forum there is value
| to keep things factual.
|
| As for why to do it, if you develop on server apps Linux
| is the standard (as an example redis does not have a
| windows native version), and I say this as a developer of
| Windows based microsevices on the cloud, my company is
| actively looking to migrate to Linux due to lack of
| tooling in the windows space (and also licence cost of
| windows server), like it or not that is the way it goes.
| If you don't need it great for you, but for other of us
| those layers are life saver
| hu3 wrote:
| On some projects and teams, more than usually expected, this is
| more than fine.
| achristmascarl wrote:
| I've really enjoyed using Orbstack: https://orbstack.dev/
|
| it also has support for Linux VMs and kubernetes (although i
| haven't tried that yet)
| Apreche wrote:
| Does it support VSCode Devcontainers? That's the only reason I
| haven't been able to switch to an alternative.
| gbraad wrote:
| Is this supported by DD?
| saghul wrote:
| I'm currently using colima, and none of the other alternatives
| that I have found support forwarding UDP ports, which I use a
| lot, so that's a bummer!
|
| Thankfully, lima has landed a new port forwarder with UDP
| support! [0]. I'm hoping to be able to use it soon once it makes
| into a release.
|
| [0]: https://github.com/lima-
| vm/lima/commit/13e9cbcabc6a0a05ec389...
| ekzy wrote:
| Honest question, what's wrong with docker desktop? Looking at all
| the alternatives suggested it's not clear to me why any other
| tools are better? I'm not using k8s locally, just docker compose.
| To connect to our remote k8s cluster, I use IntelliJ k8s
| extension (I just need to do some basic dev tasks, I'm not
| administrating the cluster)
| alx__ wrote:
| For me, it was consuming so much memory. Switching to OrbStack
| helped fix that
| bboygravity wrote:
| FreeBSD jails? :p
| maxyurk wrote:
| it's not free
| Andoryuuta wrote:
| One big difference is the licensing. Docker Engine itself is
| apache licensed (and hence free to use at a company of any
| scale), but Docker Desktop requires a paid plan if your company
| has more than 250 employees or more than $10 million in annual
| revenue [0].
|
| [0]: https://docs.docker.com/engine/#licensing
| fragmede wrote:
| Which like, seems entirely fair, but when there are suitable
| enough replacements that cost $0, why pay for it? Sure there
| are big picture reasons, but companies often don't think that
| long-term.
| otteromkram wrote:
| Priority tech support when everything blows up is usually
| the number one reason.
| dewey wrote:
| I have a hard time thinking of cases where you need
| support or priority support for developer tooling like
| Docker. It's not like Docker Desktop is running in
| production.
| chuckadams wrote:
| "The update failed on 200 desktops."
|
| "Performance is crap when running BlahBlah Management
| Suite."
|
| And so on. You don't necessarily call support when one
| dev has an issue, you call when they all do.
| Delk wrote:
| Docker Desktop requires a paid licence for companies with over
| 250 employees. While that's totally fair, it can add red tape
| if you want to use it in a project.
|
| I'm not completely sure about licensing for Container Desktop
| but the footer suggests MIT license.
| istoica wrote:
| Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly!
|
| Author note - Most of you guys here are power users, for whom UI
| is a visual poem that you need or not. This is not a commercial
| project, it is not following any business goals. But this does
| not mean concessions to quality, it does try to offer minimal
| resource usage everywhere, easy experience, good UI/UX.
|
| It explains all it does behind the scenes if you enable the
| developer console. It can help one learn so at a certain moment
| one understands and automates with scripts and specs.
|
| But everyone these days is either seen as too smart or too dumb,
| I don't consider users like this. I know everyone started
| somewhere and a gradual learning experience is the best.
|
| I broke so many radios and toys when I was a kid and I learned so
| much, by looking at what was is inside.
|
| It is a project done by one dude, after work and when it rains
| outside (In Belgium it rains a lot).
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| > But everyone these days is either seen as too smart or too
| dumb
|
| Vert succinct and poetic way to describe so much these days in
| this space.
| ljm wrote:
| I never finished it, but I had a lot of fun documenting a
| basic-ass K8S (well, K3S) setup that costs about 20EUR/mo on
| Hetzner.
|
| You don't really learn about sysadmin through it, or even about
| docker that much, but you get an idea of how you might easily
| run a few different things on a server while only needing to
| know YAML, and not some custom DSL like chef or puppet.
| thwarted wrote:
| > _only needing to know YAML, and not some custom DSL like
| chef or puppet._
|
| YAML may be a known syntax, but the use of it still requires
| domain specific knowledge, and is still a domain specific
| language expressing those domain specific concepts, as to
| what the expected keys and values are allowed to be and how
| they are interpreted.
| ljm wrote:
| YAML isn't the DSL, it's just the language used to express
| declarative config because the tooling is ubiquitous and
| it's rare that anyone uses it as anything more than a nicer
| version of JSON.
|
| For Kubernetes, it's CRDs that are written in YAML and they
| conform to a specification.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| I did something similar between jobs--built a k8s "cluster"
| on my home Linux box using kops+qemu. It didn't make me an
| experienced admin, but it was really enlightening and fun!
| Projects like these are a great way to learn.
| gavindean90 wrote:
| Ansible?
| knowitnone wrote:
| Sorry for being pandentic but you don't learn much by looking
| at the inside of a radio because it's mostly electronic
| components except for the knobs, antenna, dial. Without
| understanding how the the electronics work, you're just looking
| at parts. Mechanical parts like a bicycle, much easier to
| reason. Not knowing your background, can you build a radio if
| giving a box of parts? I certainly can't.
| diggan wrote:
| Maybe he's talking about a crystal radio? Those are
| relatively trivial to put together.
| salmo wrote:
| I don't think you're being pedantic. You're just making a
| weird assumption that the radio itself is the only resource.
| I learned a ton from this as a kid. And I learned from Radio
| Shack. You stare at it, you go research, you try to fix it,
| you fail. Talk to someone who knows stuff. Repeat until it
| works or you work on a new one.
|
| It's really no different than how I taught myself to fix a
| chain or replace a spoke. Or know to use WD-40 to clean, but
| then apply an oil to keep stuff lubricated and protected.
|
| With the internet, it's a lot easier. I can look up spec
| sheets just googling component markings and see the sample
| circuits.
|
| I've stared at the Linux kernel a ton. I messed with some
| stuff. I couldn't write a kernel myself, but I program better
| from doing it and I can troubleshoot things easier knowing
| the components and topology.
|
| Off the top of my head, I can fumble around and make a crappy
| amplifier from parts in my closet, or write a crappy FAT-like
| file system. I'd probably struggle a bit with a nice new
| bike. I think gear shifters and stuff are a lot fancier than
| an old 10 speed.
| AlienRobot wrote:
| Well said. I agree completely.
| sverhagen wrote:
| I don't live my life entirely on the command line either, but
| GUIs for Docker are just an interesting niche to me, for which
| I just don't understand what the ven diagram is between people
| that want Docker containers running locally, know that that's
| what they want, and know how it all works, but then don't want
| to do the small handful of commands at the prompt needed to get
| it running...
| brailsafe wrote:
| I don't necessarily _want_ docker containers running locally
| as some hobbyist, they might be just part of the process, and
| if the gui helps me move through that process efficiently
| without having to add more commands to my memory, I 'm happy
| about that. CLIs are great, but when nearly everything has
| one, those small amount of commands become quite a lot in
| aggregate.
| bubaumba wrote:
| there are ways to minimize memorization, most important:
|
| 1. keep log, docs, records of whatever you are doing. most
| commands are repetitive.
|
| 2. copilot or chatgpt, they help a lot with command lines
| and simple utilities
|
| 3. amazon Q sucks in comparison.
|
| 4. it used to be google, but now LLMs do it better. less
| scrolling and ads/spam.
| ihateolives wrote:
| Yes, either all that above or just GUI for rare
| occasions.
| bubaumba wrote:
| yes, when it's possible. but guis may not exist or may be
| not better than console, like in case of ffmpeg. the
| best, of course, is smart assistant who can take verbal
| commands. either human or llm.
|
| but my post was about doing complex tasks in general. try
| to offload. another advise for developers is to write
| comments, even in your small hobby projects. this way you
| don't have to memorize it all. this was learned hard way.
| i usually also have a separate documentation with plans,
| ideas, algorithms, useful info. remind: this is for hobby
| projects.
|
| and important thing: touch typing is must have. this
| makes it all much easier
| phantomathkg wrote:
| Life is full of many things to do and so not everyone
| have the luxury to priorities logging ones life for
| everything they do. 2 or GUI are very feasible option for
| busy people.
| herval wrote:
| you don't have to "prioritize logging" to have logs,
| calling this a "luxury" is quite bizarre. You can simply
| use tools that do bash history search, or one of the many
| copy-paste memorizer tools, and you'll save many hours
| out of those "many things to do" simply by typing ctrl+s.
| Some people are busy simply because they want to.
| scosman wrote:
| I would have assumed the same, but Docker makes ~100m ARR on
| docker desktop so it's def not niche.
|
| https://sacra.com/research/docker-plg-pivot/
| DavyJone wrote:
| Docker Desktop includes the easy to run Docker Engine /
| Docker Machine. I think is fair to assume that most of the
| revenue is not from users that want a GUI but from users
| that want a stable Docker Engine experience.
| ilbeeper wrote:
| Anecdotal, but my experience, as someone who gives DevOps
| professional services for many organizations, is that
| windows users that need containers know that they are
| called Docker and just download that. Must of them
| absolutely need GUI. Most of them doesn't know that
| Docker Desktop requires license, and I convert them to
| Rancher Desktop.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Nothing wrong with paying for good software.
| chii wrote:
| just because it costs money, doesn't mean it's good
| software.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| That seems like a non sequitur.
| maccard wrote:
| How do I install and run docker containers on windows
| without docker desktop? I've made attempts in the past but
| never actually succeeded, and just enddd up using docker
| desktop.
| fithisux wrote:
| Step 1. Uninstall docker Desktop completely (and images
| and builds and storage and containers) and reboot. Step
| 2. Install Rancher Desktop.
|
| If you also need docker emulation with podman too
|
| Step 3. Install Podman Step 4. Install Podman Desktop.
|
| Now a. Either work with Rancher Desktop (open it) and
| Docker is available also in cmd line (docker, docker
| ccompose , etc) b. Or Start Podman Desktop to configure
| Podman (or just use comandline to configure)
|
| Now in cmd you not only have docker and friends but also
| podman and friends
|
| Bonus, you have Kubernetes tools too and you are FOSS.
|
| Happy composing :-)
|
| PS: I think you cannot start both. I have both installed
| and never looked back. Windows 10 x64 PRO
| quest88 wrote:
| relatedly, I prefer using the github app instead of using the
| CLI.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I use non Linux systems for which docker desktop was the best
| way to have docker running without having to do much work.
| vasco wrote:
| Frontenders that need to run backends in my experience are
| such a cohort.
| alexchamberlain wrote:
| I use Docker Desktop on both my macbooks, despite shunning
| IDEs in favour of a decent text editor and the command line.
| I use it for 2 reasons: to manage the Linux VM, and to
| twiddle the occasional setting. For running the containers
| themselves, or running `system prune` when everything gets
| cluttered up, I use the CLI.
| maccard wrote:
| Orbstack is absolutely worth the money on MacOS, fwiw
| osigurdson wrote:
| I agree on the docker / podman, but for Kubernetes, Lens is
| is really useful. It isn't a substitute for knowing the
| command line but can be much quicker.
| ahoka wrote:
| Your false assumption is that most of its users know what is
| Docker and how it works.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| The problem is, I forget the commands all the time, because I
| use them on rare occasions. It gets the how this shit worked
| moment off your shoulder.
| maccard wrote:
| GUIs excel at exploring. Exploring is a very very large part
| of what I do when running containers locally.
| mihaitodor wrote:
| I don't get why people need Kubernetes integrations. Kind works
| just fine. You run it from the terminal and it starts a
| "cluster" as one or more containers. You can define port
| bindings and volume mounts via the yaml config. Job done.
|
| Also, nice work on Container Desktop!
| dboreham wrote:
| Poorly documented is one possibility. Also if you find an
| issue with anything that's not "testing k8s" the devs will
| tell you you're not supposed to use it for that.
| osigurdson wrote:
| >> Kubernetes is planned - my devops wants me to add it badly!
|
| Do you mean the Podman "Kubernetes like" functionality (e.g.
| podman play kube..) or Kubernetes itself?
| tacone wrote:
| > It explains all it does behind the scenes if you enable the
| developer console. It can help one learn so at a certain moment
| one understands and automates with scripts and specs.
|
| An excellent way to learn indeed! Good luck with your project.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Why does Docker feel like it was designed by people with no Unix
| background?
| bityard wrote:
| I don't know if your comment was intended to imply that Docker
| was against the Unix philosophy in some way (a debatable point,
| but not really one I share), or if you mean that the tools
| don't follow a lot of common Unix convension.
|
| When Docker was only a few years old, I did keep running into
| lots of small things which implied that the people developing
| docker in fact did NOT have a Unix (or even Linux) background.
| Things like source code files having the wrong type of newlines
| (or a mix of types), and forgetting to add a newline to the
| last line in a file. (A correct Unix text file has a newline at
| the end of _every_ line, even the last one.) There were of
| course more giveaways than this, I just remember the newline
| stuff irritating me the most.
| jve wrote:
| Why is newline at the end relevant?
|
| I remember not having a newline breaks some tools... but why?
| It can't be because of unix philosophy!?
| mook wrote:
| Some old tools had bugs where they'd read a line (up to the
| new line) and then process it, so if the last line didn't
| end with a new line they'd never do the processing. So a
| manual workaround for bugs became the convention.
| paulv wrote:
| Back in ~2002 this was the case with cron. Found out the
| hard way when all the backup tapes we desperately needed
| were completely empty.
| SSLy wrote:
| so that you can cat(1) multiple files at once, and their
| bookends don't get glued.
| ape4 wrote:
| Is it ok to run the Windows version on a normal desktop (not in a
| VM). Does it uninstall cleanly. Thx
| leoqa wrote:
| Orthogonal rant: Podman allows host mounts during image build,
| whereas docker does not. Ran into a big headache where a monorepo
| using podman leveraged this to create container images from
| source and the equivalent docker implementation had to copy the
| monorepo into the docker build context every time.
|
| We needed to use Docker for M1 support (probably should've tried
| Colima, etc).
| jmholla wrote:
| I may be wrong, but I think BuildKit gives Docker that
| functionality.
| nine_k wrote:
| I'd bind-mount the tree into the context. (I assume Docker
| won't follow simple symlinks.)
| taspeotis wrote:
| https://docs.docker.com/reference/dockerfile/#run---mount
| ademup wrote:
| Is Ubuntu 24.04 supported? (Docker Desktop doesn't support 24.04
| currently)
| wg0 wrote:
| colima + docker CLI goes a long way.
|
| $ colima start
|
| $ docker context use colima
|
| And that's it.
|
| And Kubernestes? No thank you, life is already hard as is.
| dewey wrote:
| Every time I tried Colima it stopped working after a few days.
| Not just for me either. Back to Docker Desktop which never gave
| me a single issue in many years.
| delduca wrote:
| +1 for OrbStack.
| delduca wrote:
| Is another crap electron app?
| jpace121 wrote:
| I would also encourage people to look at Podman desktop which has
| pretty good support from Red Hat.
|
| https://podman-desktop.io/
| 1oooqooq wrote:
| support from red hat is not a good thing :nervouslaughteremoji
| dzonga wrote:
| how is this different from the usual podman client ?
| jlos wrote:
| My team switched our medium sized org over to Rancher Desktop
| with no major issues after about 10 months. We don't need
| kubernetes though.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| It's not fully baked. _Sigh_
|
| - Buggy as heck with bad error messages.
|
| - Bad UX with inadequate help.
|
| - Requires extra tweaking and installing more stuff to get going,
| which defeats its entire purpose.
|
| - Confusing.
|
| - Can't browse or choose tags of images.
|
| It's not a viable alternative yet, but maybe it will improve
| sometime in the future.
| knowitnone wrote:
| not affiliated with the project but thanks for the feedback!
| Now they have some more items in their TODO list which will
| make their product better.
| rednafi wrote:
| Orbstack
| nerdponx wrote:
| Nice!
|
| Unfortunately I got this error upon opening the Mac app:
| Uncaught Exception: TypeError: Cannot read properties of
| null (reading 'setImage') at NativeTheme.<anonymous>
| (file:///Applications/Container%20Desktop.app/
| Contents/Resources/app.asar/build/main-5.2.3.mjs:22:537771)
| at NativeTheme.emit (node:events:519:28)
|
| Nothing seems to be wrong, but that was surprising.
|
| Also, it's not obvious from the site that Container Desktop does
| _bundle_ Podman along wit it, unlike Docker Desktop. The analogy
| with the latter and the subtitle "Podman Desktop Companion" on
| the site made me think it might include a bundled Podman
| installation.
|
| That said I do like the idea, and I'm definitely looking forward
| to trying it. For context, I'm not a Kubernetes user, mostly just
| Compose and plain `docker run` for ad-hoc things.
| TechSquidTV wrote:
| I saw this, I think posted here the other day, looked
| interesting. https://github.com/ajayd-san/gomanagedocker
|
| A TUI alternative.
| v3ss0n wrote:
| For none gui, lazydocker is perfect
| snapplebobapple wrote:
| Tangentially unrelated side queation: how do you make nfs mounts
| work in podman without running it as root and making running
| podman over docker kind of pointless or what do you use to share
| a base fileayatem from somewhere else on the network to a docker
| container that isnt nfs or samba?
| lozf wrote:
| Maybe these blog posts12 from Red Hat will help. I haven't
| tried yet, just found these earlier.
|
| 1: https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/rootless-podman-nfs
|
| 2: https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/nfs-rootless-podman
| snapplebobapple wrote:
| I dont think thats quite it. I have nfs mounts defined in my
| compose files. I.e in the container /media is an volume
| docker creates from an nfs mount defined in the docker
| compose. That dodnt work withpout podman having root last i
| checked a few years ago
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