[HN Gopher] A flight search engine that combines flights from di...
___________________________________________________________________
A flight search engine that combines flights from different
airlines? (2014)
Author : beatthatflight
Score : 80 points
Date : 2024-09-20 01:20 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (travel.stackexchange.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (travel.stackexchange.com)
| throawayonthe wrote:
| skiplagged shows you "self-transfer" flight options, which i
| think solves what OOP was asking
| nroets wrote:
| And it has data for some smaller airlines like AJet in Turkey.
| breadwinner wrote:
| Isn't that what Expedia does?
| lxgr wrote:
| As explained in the answer, almost always Expedia will issue a
| single _ticket_ across one or more airlines (the technical term
| for that is "interlining"), which is different from an
| itinerary made up of actually separately issued tickets.
|
| In the former case, there's always exactly one airline
| responsible for getting you to your destination in case of a
| missed connection or itinerary changes; in the latter case,
| you're often on your own.
| fy20 wrote:
| I used Kiwi.com for this a few weeks ago (combining multiple
| European carriers, including Ryanair) and it worked rather
| well.
|
| My first flight was delayed, and it seemed likely I would
| miss the second leg flight, so they sent me an email with a
| list of options to reschedule. I'd purchased the 'Premium
| Protection', so I think I could choose a new option up to
| EUR250 (+ hotel if overnight) without paying any extra.
|
| I decided to risk taking the first flight, as the second
| airport was much bigger so figured there would be better
| flights from there. Fortunately the flight on the second leg
| was delayed too, so I didn't need to change anything.
| lxgr wrote:
| What Kiwi.com is doing with their "separate tickets plus
| connection insurance" model is called "virtual
| interlining", and it's an interesting alternative in some
| scenarios (well-connected airports with many alternatives).
| But I'd still never risk it on an important connection.
|
| I've had a very bad experience with Kiwi.com myself: I
| booked a Ryanair flight on them without realizing that
| Ryanair is actively trying to prevent Kiwi from reselling
| their flights. Kiwi.com apparently works around this by
| booking tickets on pools of Ryanair retail accounts, to
| which they don't share the credentials with travelers -
| making mobile check-in impossible. (And Ryanair at least at
| the time was charging over 100EUR of a "service fee" for a
| boarding pass print at the airport...)
|
| This is only marginally related to booking separate
| tickets, but I suppose the larger point is that it's never
| a great situation to be stuck between the lines of two
| companies actively hostile towards each other, when you
| really depend on their cooperation to get to your
| destination.
|
| "Official" interline agreements are an explicit statement
| that two or more airlines will make at least some
| reasonable effort to get you and your luggage to your
| destination, and will be on the hook for it (under ICAO
| regulations) if things don't work out.
| breadwinner wrote:
| > _in the latter case, you 're often on your own_
|
| If so why would you want this? Isn't the Expedia way of
| issuing a single ticket better?
| commandlinefan wrote:
| According to the poster, he found a combo that wasn't
| available in the online booking system. From what I recall
| from my time at Travelocity (coming onto 20 years ago, so
| probably slightly out of date), there are only a handful of
| GDS 's(Global Distribution Systems), of which Sabre - the
| owner of Travelocity - was at the time the largest. Those
| GDS systems are supposed to know about all of the flights
| from all of the airlines and find the cheapest route across
| all airlines and for a long time, they did. But as time
| went on, carriers like Southwest refused to participate
| with the GDS's and offered direct fares to customers while
| competitive GDS's sprang up and started to fragment the
| ones that were being used.
|
| I can't recall exactly which GDS Expedia used (Worldspan or
| Galileo I think), but I do remember that you could
| comparison shop between them and us and find lower fares
| depending on which GDS you were using because they listed
| some airlines that we didn't and vice versa and even some
| fares on specific airlines - Sabre was originally an AA
| subsidiary so tended to have better access to AA fares and
| was _always_ the cheapest way to fly in or out of Dallas.
|
| So what OP is looking for is what the GDS's would call an
| uber-GDS - which is, of course, what all of them are
| angling to become, but are being thwarted by competitive
| business practices. It's entirely possible that he found a
| route that was partly available on Sabre and partly
| available on Expedia that was cheaper than what was
| available on either, but he had to go poking around for it.
|
| So, why not make a GDS of GDS'es that searched all of them
| and found combinations like the one OP found? A lot of
| companies tried - sites like Travelocity and Expedia and
| Orbitz were online and scrapeable, after all. The problem
| was, there was no money to be made in them. Travelocity
| made a lot of its money through travel agency fees -
| Travelocity acted as a travel agent and got the same
| commission on tickets that a brick and mortar travel agent
| would get. I assume Expedia and Orbitz and Priceline did
| the same. The aggregators, on the other hand, had to charge
| a fee on top of that to make their site profitable. There
| are a few people like OP who have a specialized need to be
| in a certain place at a certain time that an aggregator of
| aggregators could come up with, but not enough that were
| willing to pay a fee on top of the combined flight. In
| addition, savvy travlers could search the aggregator... and
| then go book the individual flights directly on the travel
| sites (you couldn't do this with GDS flights, at least not
| back then).
|
| So yes, Expedia's way is better, and the best option in 99%
| of cases. It'd be great if the airlines would play ball to
| give consumers what they wanted, but... well, good luck
| with that.
| josephcsible wrote:
| You never want that, but sometimes you can't get the other
| way.
| lxgr wrote:
| Sometimes one is also significantly cheaper than the
| other, and if you're flexible and willing to take the
| risks implied, it can make sense.
| joshuaheard wrote:
| Kayak.com might be what you are looking for.
| crystal_revenge wrote:
| Happy to see ITA software mentioned in the comments:
| https://matrix.itasoftware.com/search
|
| I still have fond memories of their legendary (pre-leetcode)
| coding challenges [0] posted on the T (they also hosted the
| Boston Lisp users group in the early 2000s which was filled with
| mind-blowingly incredibly brilliant people, everyone there seemed
| to be an expert in software _and_ had a PhD in some other, non-
| related field)
|
| Having worked a bit in the travel industry, I _highly_ recommend
| that you _never_ book through a third party (by all means use
| their search). Third party apps are not allowed by airlines to
| charge less than the airline and typically have abysmal customer
| service, and I can assure you any "add-ons" offered by a third
| party are ultimately a scam.
|
| 0. https://github.com/mattbraz/ita-puzzles
| lxgr wrote:
| > Third party apps are not allowed by airlines to charge less
| than the airline
|
| How come I regularly see third-party OTAs offer the same
| itineraries cheaper than the airline then?
|
| Sometimes there's a mystery fee added just before payment, but
| not nearly always - and I've flown such itineraries once or
| twice myself (if the difference was significant and I was
| absolutely certain I wouldn't need any change or extra
| service).
|
| I was under the impression that these effectively share part of
| their agent fee with the traveler as a form of kickback (to
| appear as the cheapest option in search, which in the end might
| end up a win-win for both).
| EnigmaFlare wrote:
| One way I've heard is they don't book your ticket immediately
| but predict when the airline's price will go down and book in
| then. I imagine they have far better data to enable price
| prediction than the general public, and can spread the cost
| of getting it wrong over their other customers.
| lxgr wrote:
| At least the ones I've used have always sent me a ticket
| number within at most a few hours, and usually instantly.
| I'd be surprised if that really was a factor these days.
| anon9u7255 wrote:
| From what I remember from working in the industry many
| years ago, the process is actually split into (at least)
| 3 parts.
|
| 1. Reservation
|
| 2. Booking
|
| 3. Ticketing
|
| Each step has its own expiration dates set by the
| airline, which can range from "instant" to several
| days/weeks. They may also set different cancelation fees
| for each step. A smart travel agent could in theory use
| this to cancel an old booking and book again if the price
| is reduced, but I think some airlines have changed their
| practice to avoid this.
|
| Keep in mind that I mostly worked for the European
| market. I know US airlines operate a bit differently from
| the rest of the world. They usually have more flexible
| rules around flights and exchanging of tickets.
| rockostrich wrote:
| >A smart travel agent could in theory use this to cancel
| an old booking and book again if the price is reduced,
| but I think some airlines have changed their practice to
| avoid this.
|
| This is called churn and airlines are pretty on top of
| it. If you do this often then it will completely ruin
| your relationship with the airline. Maybe individual
| travel agencies can get away with it if they're trying to
| book a handful of tickets each week but OTAs can't.
|
| > I think some airlines have changed their practice to
| avoid this.
|
| AFAIK even direct connections still use the pattern of
| creating a PNR, confirming the booking, and then issuing
| a ticket. Even so in the US, airlines have to guarantee a
| full refund if a domestic flight is cancelled within 24
| hours of booking.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| One trick they use is to book via a different country. Flight
| from A to B when booked on the main English website in
| dollars can be a higher price than the same leg being booked
| on the Russian website in rubles.
|
| Two reasons for that, one can be because the airline is less
| known in that market and whats to price more aggressively,
| and the other is that the ticket conditions are slightly
| different. For example your right to get compensation in case
| of a delay (and how much) may be different between those
| tickets.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Airlines own systems are often awful UI and in case of some
| asian low costers your data is immediately sold to spammers
| (and they collect as much your data as they can too).
|
| Depends on exact case but if traveling on a budget going with
| low costers and connections a good third party can be better
| than an unknown shitty airline's system.
|
| I used Expedia a few years back, got a lower price and could
| cancel for full refund within a day but they probably don't do
| that anymore. Kiwi seemed okay. Ctrip now owned by China.
| muststopmyths wrote:
| Expedia still offers refunds within 24 hours. At least for
| every flight I've booked originating from the US in the last
| few years.
|
| I thought it was because of the DoT rule, but apparently they
| wouldn't be subject to that.
| lxgr wrote:
| I'd be very careful with Kiwi. They don't have official OTA
| agreements with all the airlines they resell; at least
| Ryanair at one point was actively hostile towards them, and
| Kiwi was working with personal Ryanair accounts to get around
| their roadblocks. This in turn meant I couldn't access
| Ryanair's mobile boarding passes and had to find a printer on
| short notice at the airport.
|
| While airlines can apparently not legally completely prevent
| such "uncooperative" third-party resellers, and I do have
| some sympathy for the business model, it's not great to be
| stuck between travel agent and airline when things go wrong.
|
| Other OTAs like Experian actually take the role of a good old
| travel agent (the entity historically doing much of the
| ticketing work the airlines are now doing directly) and will
| usually only sell you itineraries of interlining (i.e.
| cooperating) airlines, and also only of airlines that accept
| travel agents as business partners in the first place.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I have bad experiences with Kiwi and ctrip and a bunch of
| other ones. The support is indeed terrible and if anything
| goes wrong, the airline will tell you to contact the 3rd
| party agent... which has horrible support so there you are,
| stuck somewhere in asia. I had multiple occasions in which I
| just booked another ticket because of their incompetence,
| losing a few $100 as I could not take the risk of being late.
| Now I only book directly at the airline: at that time the
| company was booking and they just took what google flights
| gave them, which is often not directly at the airline.
| tomhoward wrote:
| > Third party apps are not allowed by airlines to charge less
| than the airline
|
| Technically true in that they can't undercut the airline on the
| same fare class.
|
| But there are many different fare classes and some of them are
| only offered via 3rd parties, so you can often get much better
| deals via e.g., Expedia than you can by going direct to the
| airline.
|
| Just this year my family flew Melbourne-Madrid then Milan-
| Melbourne, both legs on Cathay, but this route was only
| available on Expedia (and maybe other OTAs too, I don't
| remember) - all I know was that it was impossible to even
| search for this route on Cathay's own website. We didn't have
| any issues, but if we did I don't know if I'd worry about
| Expedia's customer service being much worse than an airline's
| own service.
| maccard wrote:
| > We didn't have any issues, but if we did I don't know if
| I'd worry about Expedia's customer service being much worse
| than an airline's own service.
|
| The problem (speaking as someone who has to deal with Travel
| Agents many, many times) is that Expedia will say it's
| Cathay's problem, and Cathay will refuse to speak to you and
| tell you it's Expedia's problem.
| ddoolin wrote:
| This has happened to me so many times with both flights and
| hotels. Now I very rarely book through third parties (only
| search) unless the discounted rate is compelling enough.
|
| It just happened to me 2 weeks ago. I booked a resort in
| Cancun through Chase Travel at a heavily-discounted rate
| and made an error in booking, for one person versus needing
| two. Chase said they couldn't change it and to call the
| resort, their middle agency said they couldn't change it,
| and the resort said they couldn't change it and to call the
| agent! It eventually got fixed after hours of calling and
| essentially pleading.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| Who was the one who eventually was able to change it?
| maccard wrote:
| It's always the travel agent.
| pelasaco wrote:
| > Having worked a bit in the travel industry, I highly
| recommend that you never book through a third party (by all
| means use their search). Third party apps are not allowed by
| airlines to charge less than the airline and typically have
| abysmal customer service,
|
| That's not always true. I've often used services like
| Skyscanner to find a flight, then checked directly on the
| airline's website, and the prices didn't match. Sometimes, it
| depends on which country you're in too. For example, I once
| looked at the same flight on Lufthansa's German site and on a
| localized version for another country, and the price was
| different due to taxes. By a third part, I never had a
| different price depending on which country you are buying it.
|
| However, nowadays, I still prefer to book directly through the
| airlines, though, because when they cancel your flight--and
| they've been doing that quite a lot since COVID--you have a
| better chance of holding them accountable.
| rockostrich wrote:
| Disclaimer: I've worked for the OTA Hopper for 7+ years.
|
| > Third party apps are not allowed by airlines to charge less
| than the airline
|
| This is not necessarily true. OTAs are not allowed to list a
| price that undercuts the airline but there are definitely ways
| for them to undercut the price that the booker ends up paying
| e.g. offering credits that they can redeem on future flight
| bookings. In this scenario the airline still gets paid the full
| amount for the ticket and the OTA makes up the difference.
|
| Airlines are fully within their right to withhold inventory
| from OTAs that do this, but that entirely depends on the
| relationship that the OTA has with the airline. In some cases
| airlines actually run discount campaigns through OTAs in order
| to capture a bit more market share or fill inventory that
| they're not seeing being booked through their first party
| website.
|
| >I can assure you any "add-ons" offered by a third party are
| ultimately a scam
|
| This is definitely not true. Any kind of insurance product
| offered by third parties are essentially just that. Hopper's
| "cancel for any reason" insurance is essentially paying a
| premium to make your ticket fully refundable. Typically airline
| inventory managers price refundable tickets at a fixed premium
| and there's an opportunity there for OTAs to essentially
| undercut that premium because it's a naive model.
| neilv wrote:
| > _I still have fond memories of their legendary (pre-leetcode)
| coding challenges [0] posted on the T_
|
| Those ITA puzzle ads on the T (Boston MBTA subway) got my
| interest. They were so much better for introvert thinkers, than
| getting ambushed in a Google interview context, and there was
| also no interference from a bad-loop interviewer.
|
| > _they also hosted the Boston Lisp users group in the early
| 2000s_
|
| IIRC, those meetings were organized by Fare Rideau.
| Volunteering meeting space was maybe ITA (then Google) and
| Northeastern University?
|
| (I made the small contribution of building the the Boston Lisp
| announcements email list, by promising a lot of people, wary of
| social media, that it would be announcements-only. This
| included famous people, who I'd read about as a kid, such as in
| the Steven Levy book, or knew only from their names on books
| and standards documents.)
|
| Incidentally, speaking of brilliant big names in programming...
| in a few weeks, Gregor Kiczales, Hal Abelson, and Gerald
| Sussman are speaking at RacketCon 2024. https://con.racket-
| lang.org/
| hilux wrote:
| > Third party apps are not allowed by airlines to charge less
| than the airline
|
| I've paid much less (on international round-trip flights
| originating USA) on justfly.com than I could find on the
| airline's own site.
| aero-glide2 wrote:
| Skyscanner
| azurezyq wrote:
| I think Google Flights can do that?
| lxgr wrote:
| They can; this usually shows up with a remark of "separate
| tickets".
|
| There are considerable caveats when doing that - it's generally
| not advisable for connecting flights (you're essentially on the
| hook for missed connections etc.), and even just for separate
| outbound and return tickets it can mean trouble (e.g. if the
| outbound flight is cancelled, there is no obligation for the
| separate ticket to be refunded to you).
| trash_cat wrote:
| Granted I only travel with hand luggage, I never had any
| issues with cancelled or delayed flighs when booking separate
| tickets. Even so they are relatvely cheap. It is even cheaper
| if you book your return flight ticket separately.
| thrdbndndn wrote:
| You need to be more clear about what you meant by saying
| "never had issues".
|
| The point is there might be issues because the second
| flight has no obligation to refund you if you're late (but
| they might still do out of generosity).
|
| It's not like it's gonna happen all the time. So having
| data points saying that didn't happen is kinda pointless.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| > Granted I only travel with hand luggage
|
| That makes an enormous difference, since you usually can do
| your check-in online a day or more before departure.
|
| I just had a flight where I had purchased my connections on
| separate tickets. When I arrived at the baggage drop-off,
| it was closed and no staff from the airline was anywhere.
| So I had to bring my big suitcase along through security
| and then the airline staff at the gate was friendly enough
| to check it in for me for free.
|
| But if you're bringing anything in your checked luggage
| that security doesn't like, you will have to just leave
| that item at the airport. You might also have to pay a high
| fee to bring it to the gate instead of checking it,
| depending on airline. I had purchased my ticket directly
| from the airline, so maybe they treated me better because
| of it?
| gowld wrote:
| "separate tickets" are for 2 1-way tickets instead of a
| round-trip, not splitting a 1-way across a connection.
| mattkantor wrote:
| I worked on this for tripstack a while ago. They offer it through
| their partners. Kiwi is the other one who made it a thing. Now
| it's more common to see it all over.
| parpfish wrote:
| One search feature I wanted was a way to look up a list of all
| flights leaving an airport on a certain day.
|
| In the early stages of vacation planning, it's be fun to see a
| list of all possible direct flights to evaluate my options, but
| the use case of doing flight searches with an unknown destination
| isn't too common. Basically, i want to be able to browse flights
| like a bus schedule and just see what the possibilities are from
| a particular start point
| jsight wrote:
| You could use flightaware.com for this. Just search a date and
| a departure airport. The caveat is that the list will be fairly
| large, with a lot of repeats.
| kmoser wrote:
| You can get something similar from
| https://www.kayak.com/explore/ except the results are shown on
| a map rather than as a list: you specify an origin (and
| optionally a departure date) and the map shows price icons at
| all possible destinations.
| mhitza wrote:
| > One search feature I wanted was a way to look up a list of
| all flights leaving an airport on a certain day.
|
| Skyscanner does this pretty well.
| yunohn wrote:
| Google Flights does this really well - just leave the
| destination empty or use something generic, like Europe/USA. I
| do this all the time to find new places to go to.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Not exactly what you want, but
| https://www.flightconnections.com is nice to learn "where I can
| fly from airport X in 1 hop / 2 hops".
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yeah though not all flights are daily
| dagw wrote:
| Google Flights seems to do this. Just leave the destination
| field empty and select direct flights only.
| robertclaus wrote:
| The leading response does a good job calling out that this is
| pretty risky for the traveller. Similar to skip lagging, if
| anything goes wrong you can end up is a pretty difficult
| position.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| Even if you have insurance that can cover the cost of the low
| cost connection ticket you just missed.. try buying a new
| ticket at the airport for that same day or same week even and
| you've now spent more than getting a regular ticket in the
| first place. And that regular ticket airline is responsible for
| getting you to your final destination.
|
| I did some extreme budget flying as a youth and you might just
| get stranded at a random airport so you better be very flexible
| with your plans. If it's inside the US maybe you're fine to
| rent a car or take a bus or something but if you happened to
| layover in UAE or something then it gets trickier
| tomhoward wrote:
| It's called "virtual interlining".
|
| The startup I co-founded (Adioso - YC W09 [1]) tried to do it,
| including having discussions with a travel insurance provider
| about offering "layover protection" - so that if one leg was
| delayed causing you to miss your onward leg(s), your costs are
| covered. Kiwi.com does this now.
|
| We worked on it from about 2008 till 2013 then basically gave up,
| as it was too hard to offer a service that customers could really
| love and trust. (It wasn't for nought; the technology we
| developed was valuable, and the company was able to rebrand and
| pivot and now does important work for airlines to optimise loads
| and fares [2], though I left when the rebrand/pivot happened).
|
| The thing that makes it hard to do is it's basically impossible
| to get all the flight inventory, including fares and seat
| availability, that's complete and up-to-date enough to deliver a
| service that customers can trust.
|
| The engineering challenge is one thing - solving a multi-
| dimensional travelling salesman problem (price and
| distance/duration) highly repetitively - but you can solve that
| with enough smart engineers and "compute", which ITA did in the
| early 2000s, and on a smaller scale, our team did a decade later.
|
| But you could build the most beautiful routing engine the
| universe has ever seen, and still have a user experience that's
| kind-of garbage because the industry just keeps the flight
| inventory data so locked down.
|
| These days there are APIs and feeds available from the major
| distribution platforms - Sabre, Amadeus and Travelport, but it's
| still not comprehensive. You often still need to negotiate
| individual agreements with major airlines in order to be able to
| publish and sell their fares. And even then, many of the low-cost
| airlines (which are often most of interest to travellers who want
| to find the cheapest route and deal with self-transfer) are not
| available through these distributors, and some, like Southwest,
| have blanket refused to be on 3rd party search sites, only
| starting to relax that position very recently and only with the
| dominant platform [3]. Kiwi.com has only recently come to a
| partnership agreement with Ryanair [4] after being in legal
| battle with them for years [5]. (I hate the thought of having to
| be at war with your most important partners).
|
| Others have mentioned Skyscanner, which was always the closest to
| us in what we were each trying to offer (we talked briefly with
| them about being acquired by them).
|
| Right from the beginning when we got funded for Adioso, my mind
| became fixated on the thought "if only you get every single
| flight in the world loaded into one big graph database, what
| could you do with it?", but it turned out to be a very big "if".
|
| [1] https://techcrunch.com/2010/08/31/adioso/
|
| [2] https://amadeus.com/en/blog/articles/creating-a-private-
| resa...
|
| [3]
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/geoffwhitmore/2024/05/25/southw...
|
| [4] https://media.kiwi.com/company-news/kiwi-com-and-ryanair-
| ann...
|
| [5] https://www.travolution.com/news/kiwi.com-celebrates-
| three-w...
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Why would airlines even want penny pinching customers to snag
| the best deals via a third party?
|
| At the very least it would make more sense to let their own
| frequent flyers snag such deals.
| Ekaros wrote:
| One reason I could see is to keep perceived price level for
| the frequent flyers. If they don't see best deals they won't
| expect those. And the hardcore deal hunters are not loyal to
| you or your brand.
|
| Giving frequent flyers very good deals make them expect them,
| thus not be so willing to pay "regular" price.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| They could easily position it as a reward for loyalty for
| FFs who spent more than $X in the last calendar year with
| them.
|
| The loyalty reward in this case would be treating virtual
| interlining tickets as if they were an actual interlined
| ticket.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Virtual interlining is really dangerous model for them
| and their brand. It basically means that they would be
| reliant on someone else without any guarantees in case
| there is delays or problems.
|
| And with different alliances they already have fully
| functional interlining model. So trying to extend outside
| this is not beneficial for them.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Well someone at the airline does need to crunch the
| numbers to figure out at what $X of spend the risk
| becomes sensible to take on.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Those flyers don't care. Most frequent flyers are using
| other people's money (business travelers) or are not
| price conscience.
|
| We don't even compare prices for domestic flights and we
| fly a lot on our own dime (15x-20x+ a year since mid
| 2021). We instinctively just book Delta where we have
| status and lounge access.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| They do care when there is no valid routing from point A
| to point B via official codesharing/interlining/alliance
| partner airlines on a given day, forcing an overnight
| layover, or virtual interlining.
|
| Usually this happens when flying long haul business class
| from smaller airports to another small airport on a
| different continent.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| To fill empty seats ? Still better than nothing
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| People say this, and yet we see vacancy everywhere all the
| time.
| bluGill wrote:
| Eventually there just isn't someone who wants to go at
| any price, but the airplane still needs to fly.
| recursive wrote:
| The last ~10 times I've flown have been completely maxed
| flights. I can't remember the last time I saw an open
| seat anywhere.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Yep, post-covid it seems like airlines are favoring fewer
| flights that are more packed. I don't fly a lot (couple
| times a year), but when I do, it's very rare to see a
| flight that is not at least 95% full.
| Espressosaurus wrote:
| Yeah, for the routes I've flown over the last 5-10 years,
| significant numbers of empty seats are very much the
| exception rather than the rule, and it got worse post-
| covid.
| eastbound wrote:
| I remember a Lyon -> Bangkok on A380 on April 2nd 2010,
| we were 50 in the plane (capacity 530). Less than 10%
| full. With 20 stewards.
| r00fus wrote:
| Overbooking is still an industry standard approach to
| profit maximization. The opportunity cost of being
| overbooked (rebooking/refunding) is way lower than having
| a few seats empty because of the average cancellations.
|
| tl;dr - airlines are happy to sell you a seat that's
| taken, betting some % of other people cancel.
| mrgoldenbrown wrote:
| Curious what routes you fly, I have been on full flights
| consistently in the past few years, mostly Boston to
| Denver
| bityard wrote:
| I haven't flown in a number of years, but when I was, it
| was common knowledge that all airlines intentionally
| overbooked their flights. If you ended up being one of the
| unfortunate last 5% (or whatever) to check in, you were
| effectively turned away and offered a voucher for your
| trouble.
|
| Is that still done?
| WildGreenLeave wrote:
| As far as I know this is a true American problem, I have
| never heard about this, or have experienced this in
| Europe or Asia.
| telesilla wrote:
| A friend was bumped on a full flight from London to
| Europe last week because he didn't check in early enough,
| but I haven't heard of it happening on the continent
| side.
| phreeza wrote:
| Same reason they offer deals in the first place, price
| discrimination and yield management.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| But that's exactly the opposite of what is happening -
| allowing third parties to construct itineraries that
| compete with the ones that are being sold by the airlines
| results in a competitor; not an enabler; for yield
| management purposes.
| tomhoward wrote:
| It's an ongoing tension. Direct bookings are ideal but are
| only adequate if your brand awareness and loyalty is strong,
| like AA and Southwest. To whatever extent that's not the
| case, you need to be available via partners/agencies and on
| metasearch sites in order to be found.
|
| Our pitch to airlines when we were trying to establish
| partnerships with them was that we could find flexible
| travelers to fill seats that would otherwise be empty, and we
| had unique ways of doing that (which is why the company was
| able to pivot to enterprise), but we weren't strong enough
| for them to feel the need to partner with us (and they don't
| want to help a small player grow into a big player).
|
| Flight revenue optimization is an art and science at least as
| old as industry deregulation, and funnily enough is now
| something my old company is providing a lot of help with. If
| you can't beat 'em, join 'em as they say.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Once an airline schedules a flight, each additional passenger
| is 0 marginal cost.
|
| Besides the people who have high status with an airline are
| usually price insensitive business travelers.
|
| The people who aren't penny pinching customers who do fly
| often on their own dime are either going to pay for business
| class or first class seats or are going to get auto upgrades
| for free once they book. At least that's how it works on
| Delta.
|
| They surely aren't going to sully themselves by sitting in
| the "cattle class".
|
| For instance, Delta releases cheap economy seats to their
| partners like Virgin and KLM. I routinely book short flights
| between MCO (Orlando - current home) and ATL (former home)
| all of the time for 5500 points via KLM/AirFrance to fly
| Delta (cash price $230 one way) and to see my parents in
| small town south GA (MCO - ATL - ABY) for 8500 points (cash
| price one way $358).
|
| The tickets that Delta releases to partners are the least
| desirable times and they take away even tho use three weeks
| before the flight because they can jack up prices.
|
| As an example, there are at least 15 flights a day between
| MCO and ATL on Delta. Three of those flights may be available
| on KLM or Virgin
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > price insensitive business travelers.
|
| I've done paid travel for several companyies and they've
| all still been price sensitive. They usually have some
| policy where they'll detect some "reasonable" itinerary but
| then let me choose my own as long as it's within a certain
| dollar amount of their "reasonable" itinerary.
|
| Who are these "price insensitive" companies?
|
| What's always been especially annoying to me is that I've
| never had an option to pay out of pocket to upgrade my
| seat. Company travel portal only lets me book an economy
| ticket, and if I ask the airline about upgrading, they say
| to contact the company travel portal, who of course tells
| me to contact the airline. $eyeroll_emoji
|
| Of course, the companies always have a strict "ALL TRAVEL
| MUST BE BOOKED THROUGH THE PORTAL" policy, so I couldn't
| even just pay the ticket out of pocket and get a portion
| reimbursed.
|
| > I routinely book short flights between MCO (Orlando -
| current home) and ATL (former home)
|
| That's only ~450 miles. I'd just drive that.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Why would I drive 6.5 hours when I can just get dropped
| off by the airport, whiz through Clear + TSA Precheck,
| hang out at the Delta lounge where I get free food and
| alcoholic drinks, hop on the plane and be there in an
| hour and a half?
|
| Especially since it is essentially free?
|
| Besides I work remotely and we have been down to one car
| since mid 2020. If either one of us are going by our
| self, we wouldn't want to leave the other without a car.
|
| As far as price insensitivity , what are the chances that
| the cheap routes are going to be available when and where
| the business traveler needs to go?
|
| I assure you that the travel policies that your company
| uses for you aren't the same ones they use for their
| executives.
|
| I doubt very seriously that Andy Jassy or Bezos had their
| expense report rejected for a $3 stick of deodorant they
| charged to the room like what happened to me when I was
| at AWS (cloud consulting department - ProServe).
|
| But even Amazon didn't make you choose the cheapest route
| and I could always choose thier "most preferred carrier"
| - Delta - even if it did cost more.
|
| I could also choose non stop vs layover if it costs more.
| spiffytech wrote:
| I enjoyed Adioso back in the day. Found lots of cheap flights.
| tomhoward wrote:
| Great to hear! Thanks for saying so.
|
| I still hope to rebuild it one day but only when I can do it
| as a passion project. You can't make a living from a site
| like that.
| zerr wrote:
| Why not? People make a living from Amazon affiliation
| websites. Don't the flight companies have the similar
| programs?
| nomilk wrote:
| > Kiwi.com does this now.
|
| Sorta, the real pain point is if _anything_ needs changing on
| any of your tickets, it 's a total PITA. I value 'less hassle'
| more than I do saving 5-20% of the airfare. For me Kiwi (and
| other middlemen like it) are a hard 'No'.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| This is true when going through any third party portal for
| either flights or hotels.
|
| No reasonable amount of savings is enough to convince us to
| ever use a third party portal.
|
| My wife and I travel a lot as a hobby - mostly domestically
| with one or two international trips a year - and _something_
| is statistically going to change between the time we book and
| the time we fly on at least one of our trips.
|
| It's a lot easier to make changes directly with the
| airline/hotel especially when you have status than going
| through a portal
|
| Just last month we had a flight to Vegas + hotel over Labor
| Day that we changed at the last minute to go see my mother in
| law who had been taken to the hospital by our older (adult)
| son. We were able to change our flights to another city (ATL
| instead of LAS) as an even swap.
|
| This was Delta airlines.
|
| Then two hours later we found out she had Covid and decided
| against it and were able to call and change our flight back
| all without any change in fees and get our hotel reservation
| back.
|
| Good luck doing that when booking through a portal.
| dumbfounder wrote:
| It's even worse when using points. Amex now uses Expedia on
| the back end for hotel booking. I made a res for a hotel in
| Italy and I tried to change it. Amex says call Expedia.
| Expedia says call the hotel. The hotel says call Expedia.
| Soooo frustrating. I think Amex travel is going to poop,
| and that used to be their thing.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| At least with Amex you can transfer to airlines and you
| will almost always get more than 1 cents per point by
| transferring to an airline.
|
| Unfortunately, Amex's hotel partners - Hilton and
| Marriott are usually horrible redemptions.
|
| Chase -> Hyatt is the gold standard. But Hyatt has a
| small footprint
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Same reason that while I may use Kayak/others for searching,
| I almost always book the ticket directly with the airline
| unless it's such a huge savings that it's worth to go through
| a third party and deal with multiple airlines. Many airlines
| will price-match these days so if do find the same flight
| cheaper through a third-party they'll give it to you at that
| price (providing all legs were with their airline of course).
| jachriga wrote:
| My (recent) experience with Kayak is that when you do
| finally pick a flight to book, it only redirects you to the
| carrier site where you book it manually. This was once for
| United and once for Delta. Is that interaction maybe
| carrier-dependent?
| RSZC wrote:
| The savings can be a lot more than 20% - last month I had a
| roundtrip ticket of $2000 brought down to $1300 (and got
| there faster!) via the switching airlines approach. It did
| come with some additional stress - needed additional visas
| and was worried about missing flights.
|
| If things go wrong with Kiwi, they're likely to go very
| wrong, yes...but on the other hand, if I can keep saving $700
| per trip, I can afford for them to go very wrong sometimes
| and still come out ahead.
| piombisallow wrote:
| Is this the real Aviato?
| tomhoward wrote:
| Seems likely if you imagine the producers just looked at an
| alphabetically sorted list of YC companies for name ideas.
| tcgv wrote:
| The last few times I used Skyscanner, I was disappointed
| because their "database" was outdated. When I clicked on a
| flight from the search results, it took me to the airline's
| website, which then showed a higher price. Often, there's no
| official fare from the airline, and Skyscanner lists prices
| from third-party providers I don't really trust.
|
| I'm finding Google Flights more reliable these days.
| neilv wrote:
| Is Google Flights based on the ITA Software acquisition?
| umeshunni wrote:
| Yes, you can think of Google flights as a scaled front end
| on top of the ITA data.
| garaetjjte wrote:
| Is this actually true? For example Ryanair flights will
| show up on Google Flights, but not on ITA Matrix.
| shalinmangar wrote:
| I loved Adioso! I used it all the time to find great deals in
| Europe. Thank you for building it!
| tomhoward wrote:
| I love hearing this! Makes it all worth it. Thanks for
| sharing :)
| medion wrote:
| Also loved Adioso, while traveling in Europe I used it
| extensively - the UI was incredible and I could never
| understand why it was not much much more popular... I
| haven't traveled much in the last 4 years and it's sad to
| see it does not appear to exist any longer?
| jonasdegendt wrote:
| > You often still need to negotiate individual agreements with
| major airlines in order to be able to publish and sell their
| fares.
|
| Out of curiosity, what's stopping you from just
| scraping/crawling this on a daily basis? I'm at a scale-up that
| offers a BI solution for the hospitality sector, and we scrape
| well into the tens of millions of data points per day using web
| crawlers.
|
| They obviously don't want you to, so it's an ongoing cat and
| mouse game of integrations breaking, but once we we're
| established and had a customer base, the ability to negotiate
| data API agreements actually opened up. Especially if you have
| data to offer in return.
| residentraspber wrote:
| Some airlines (Air Canada, in particular) are ramping up
| their attacks outside of just technical means [1].
|
| It's a pretty sad state of affairs, but it seems some
| airlines would rather throw lawyers at a problem than let
| their users have a better experience.
|
| [1]: https://onemileatatime.com/news/airlines-shut-down-
| websites-...
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| Do you think consumers have a limited appetite for airline
| bullshit? After all congressmen fly.
| jamestimmins wrote:
| Adioso was amazing! It was the only flight search engine that
| let explore possible trips (rather than just looking up flights
| once you knew where you wanted to go) by searching for regions
| or "International".
| tomhoward wrote:
| Great to hear! Thanks for saying so.
|
| Question for you: can Google Flights (or any other flight
| search engine) give you the same kind of search
| capabilities/answers/experience you got from Adioso?
| chriscappuccio wrote:
| A web search engine that combines results from different web
| sites? (2022) (openai.com)
| Ilasky wrote:
| One use case I'd love to see is the ability to find the best
| price for multiple city tickets.
|
| I'm fairly flexible on dates, but getting the best price for it
| is a super iterative process. Having some similar functionality
| like excel's solve function would be awesome to find optimal
| dates within a range for each destination.
| Tepix wrote:
| kiwi.com is also pretty good at this.
| mmsc wrote:
| I've never understood the comments on all of the posts like this
| advising people to never book via a third party. Is it an
| American thing?
|
| I've probably been on around 250 flights in the past 7 years in
| Europe and I can't remember one time that it was cheaper to book
| directly than through some third party. Sometimes it's the same
| price to book direct, but it doesn't matter either way: the
| support you're going to get is the same, and the insurance or
| whatever depends on... exactly whatever you've paid for already.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| > the support you're going to get is the same
|
| I think this is not true. In my limited experience, if you book
| a flight through a third party or even a code share agreement,
| you don't get full access to the flying airline's UI and things
| like changing your flight or dealing with cancellations are a
| real hassle.
|
| Just last week I had an issue where I had booked an Iberia code
| share flight through American Airlines, but then Iberia bumped
| me from the flight onto an AA flight. Of course, both Iberia
| and AA support initially claimed it wasn't their problem and
| that I needed to contact the other airline.
|
| Maybe in Europe it's not as much a problem because (1)
| modifiable flight tickets aren't as common and (2) passenger
| rights in the case of delay and cancellations are stronger.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yeah, due to thw Fly America Act, I (usually) have to book
| through a US carrier even if it's a code share for work
| travel and run into this problem often...
| barrkel wrote:
| It's often slightly more expensive to book direct but if you
| want to e.g. buy extra baggage at a discounted online rate
| (i.e. not an airport mugging), there is no guarantee that a
| third party will have a UI for that.
| mmsc wrote:
| I've also never booked a flight through one of the 3rd
| parties where I couldn't access the booking on the airline's
| website.
|
| Some time again (as discussed in this thread), Ryanair had
| some spat with resellers. So I had to upload a picture of my
| ID to the Ryanair website in order access my booking that
| way.
| chx wrote:
| Never book anywhere else but the airline website. It's not worth
| it, these days. There might be some deals but when and no longer
| if, IRROPS happens you will face an uphill battle to fix your
| problem playing a triangle between the airline and the OTA you
| booked with. Flying has changed: past covid and Boeing-being-
| shit-revealed there are not enough long range planes, in Europe
| because of the Ukrainian war Hungarian ATC is overwhelmed which
| creates ripple effects all over and nothing is on time. And
| that's just the regions I know about.
| https://travel.stackexchange.com/q/174173 has more.
| sho wrote:
| From the great presentation linked:
| http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-com...
|
| > Amazingly, the graph diameter is often as high as 20: there are
| airports that can take 20 flights minimum to get between
|
| I wonder if that's still true. It's hard to imagine. And just the
| thought of having to optimize that search function made my
| cortisol levels spike a bit.
| cozzyd wrote:
| I imagine it must be something like small Pacific island to
| small town in the Canadian far north or something...
| bluGill wrote:
| Canada is too rich - there are more likely to be flights.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yes probably Russian far north is more likely I guess!
| dmurray wrote:
| The next line specifies:
|
| > typically this will be a small airport in Alaska or Canada
| to another small airport in Africa or Indonesia
|
| It's still mind blowing to me. Surely any Alaskan airport
| would be within 5 hops of Anchorage (or not have scheduled
| flights at all, fine, but that can't be the case here),
| likewise surely any Indonesian airport is within 5 hops of
| Jakarta, and Anchorage-Jakarta can certainly be done in 3
| hops in a multitude of ways. But one of those assumptions is
| wrong by 7 hops!
|
| There aren't even that many airports to consider, the same
| presentation gives 4000 as the number included in the
| analysis.
|
| Maybe the graph topology is something like a series of tiny
| airports that each only connect to the next airport in the
| series, probably by the same flight that makes multiple stops
| (not unknown in island hopping, and maybe then in
| Alaska/Canada too). So you don't really board 20 planes but
| you do require 20 takeoffs and landings.
| dmurray wrote:
| Thinking about it, I bet you can prove this is the
| topology. If the graph is generally densely connected
| (almost all nodes have 3+ destinations) then the diameter
| can't be that high compared to the size of the graph. Proof
| left to the reader. So either there are chains like
| described above at the edges, or there's a chain like that
| separating two parts of the graph (suppose there was only
| one route connecting the US to Europe, and it stopped in
| Newfoundland, Keflavik and Shannon). The last possibility
| is obviously nonsense, though, we know that major airports
| are densely connected.
| saratogacx wrote:
| It may also depend on optimizations. Potentially you may be
| able to do fewer hops but if the schedules have 1/week
| flights they may end up taking 2 weeks calendar time for 7
| hops while 20 hops gets you there in 4 days. If the window
| used for the graph creation doesn't cover enough schedule
| time, more optimal routes may fall off the edges.
| cozzyd wrote:
| Yeah, so far CKX is the airport I can find with the most
| hops to Anchorage (4, but 3 to Fairbanks which is also
| fairly well connected). YGZ is likewise 4 hops to Ottawa,
| and I can't find anything higher in Canada (there are a few
| that are 4 hops to Montreal in northern Quebec). Nor can I
| find anything in Greenland more than 4 hops from
| Copenhagen, Keflavik, or Gatwick (hilariously, that's the
| fewest-hop big airport for some routes due to flying
| through Akureyri, which is connected to RKV rather than
| KEF). There must be some island hopping chain somewhere in
| the Pacific (or perhaps in the Indian Ocean?) but it's not
| so easy to find. It seems you're usually a few hops from
| either Tahiti, Hawaii or Fiji...
| mapt wrote:
| Has to be worse than that. 20 is still way too many degrees
| of separation if every region operated on a hub and spoke
| model.
|
| I would imagine we're seeing two to four groupings of
| sequential routes which are subsidized access. A floatplane
| which hits every island in the archipelago, like a bus route,
| before reaching the international airport with jets. Likewise
| with bush planes in Arctic villages, and regional turboprops
| that hit a sequence of rural airports because they only
| attract a few passengers a day on their entire route.
| nomilk wrote:
| Google built something amazing in Google Flights [1] (and they
| haven't ruined it yet).
|
| It's no-nonsense, easy to filter by number of stops, and 'date
| grid' is great for scoping out savings by departing a day or two
| earlier/later without having open multiple tabs as other sites
| necessitate.
|
| Only criticisms are extremely mild ones: it defaults to 'return',
| doesn't remember your currency, and bizarrely defaults to a month
| ahead for the departure date (actually, they must have very
| recently fixed this because it doesn't do that anymore!)
|
| [1] https://www.google.com/travel/flights
| khuey wrote:
| My biggest criticism of Google Flights is that sometimes the
| price it shows you is only available through some sketchy third
| party OTA based out of a foreign country that only offers
| support through email. Good luck if anything goes wrong or
| needs to be changed with your ticket.
| nomilk wrote:
| > third party (online travel agent)
|
| I've used Google flights ~50 times and hadn't seen too many
| recommendations for flights booked through OTAs, but hard
| agree with avoiding them (and booking directly with the
| airline).
| dboreham wrote:
| Fun fact: sometimes Google Flights will show a (lower) fare
| on United that doesn't exist on United's own site. But if you
| click though to United from Google, it magically now does
| exist, and can be ticketed. I don't know if this happens with
| other airlines (I look for and book mostly United).
| nomilk wrote:
| Didn't know this! Although had seen the opposite: flights
| (/prices) listed on google that are no longer listed on the
| airline's site.
| dboreham wrote:
| Google didn't build it. They acquired ITA.
| nomilk wrote:
| Interesting to see Hipmunk [1] among the suggestions. I believe
| Steve Huffman (reddit founder) started that and was yc funded.
|
| [1] https://travel.stackexchange.com/a/26833/100794
| bojangleslover wrote:
| Adjacent plug for a free Chrome Extension: FlyOnTime embeds
| flight delay probability straight into Google Flights. Very
| useful when you're evaluating a number of flights from the same
| origin and destination but at different times.
|
| Helps you really know what you're paying for.
|
| https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/flyontime/mjhocoppe...
| bluGill wrote:
| I want to search from multiple cities. I have often saved a lot
| of money by flying out of an airport 1.5 hours drive away from
| home.
| fckgw wrote:
| Most major airlines support this. Search for "Los Angeles" on
| Southwest, for example, and you can simultaneously choose from
| LAX, Burbank, Long Beach, Ontario, or any number of airports
| across the region.
| dgd123 wrote:
| tomhoward is correct. It's called "virtual interlining". I
| started the team that built it at Hopper (started working on it
| in Fall 2020 and we launched our first version in Fall 2021).
| They're called Mix & Match fares on the Hopper app. It's a really
| hard problem. So hard that we didn't even try to solve the "best"
| flight. We used a bunch of heuristics to find what we believed
| would be "better" flights. We measured what we called "beat rate"
| which was the rate that a VI flight was the cheapest on our
| flight list. When I left the team, our beat rate was around 0.5
| (so a VI flight was the cheapest half the time).
| rockostrich wrote:
| Hey DGD, fancy seeing you here. It was a pleasure working with
| you! -jon
| dgd123 wrote:
| Great seeing you too Jon! I figure if a thread on something
| travel-related comes up, there's bound to be Hopper people on
| it
| traceroute66 wrote:
| In my experience, these tools have lost their value in the post-
| COVID world because the airlines have (a) collectively hiked
| their prices, and (b) have slashed and otherwise aggressively
| changed their route structure.
|
| I spent many a happy hour <2020 on ITA Matrix. It was well worth
| learning as a tool back then despite its terse interface and
| tricky syntax.
|
| But these days? The sorts of clever tricks you could do before
| are no longer viable for the reasons I outlined at the top, i.e.
| connections no longer exist and/or the price is no longer
| attractive.
|
| And before anyone tries to tell me otherwise, my experience is
| bang up to date. What I said above is based on 2024 experience.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| During COVID when nobody was flying fares dropped.
|
| But today fares are the lowest they've been in the history of
| aviation, except for during COVID which should never be
| factored into trends.
|
| Inflation-adjusted averages for fares, both overall and on
| specific routes, for the last 30 years are here:
| https://www.bts.gov/air-fares
|
| Even with fees and taxes airfare is the lowest it's ever been.
|
| Internationally the difference is even greater than the halving
| of US domestic ticket prices over the last 30 years.
|
| The tricks no longer work because the bottom has been reached
| and there are no more pennies to pinch.
|
| If one buys a ticket today, right now, for next month one can
| fly from DC to LA for $98-- round trip. Then they will complain
| about paying $30 for a bag....
|
| I can fly first class from New York to Frankfurt for less than
| what an economy class ticket cost when I was visiting my Oma in
| the 80s and 90s and that's NOT adjusted for inflation.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > If one buys a ticket today, right now, for next month one
| can fly from DC to LA for $98-- round trip. Then they will
| complain about paying $30 for a bag....
|
| LA<->DC is my most commonly booked flight and I haven't paid
| less than $300 (net baggage fees) in almost 20 years. On top
| of that, I end up with less legroom than I did 20 years ago.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| United App: IAD to LAX tues-tues $208 round trip including
| fees.
|
| Google flights: BWI to LAX sun-sun $98 on Spirit.
|
| I'd pay the extra $110 for United because my bags and an
| Economy Plus seat are free with my status.
|
| Even if you've been paying a consistent $300 for 20 years,
| the cost fallen by a third.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| BWI is not DC, I don't fly Tues-Tues, and 20 years ago I
| was paying as low as $150. Flights now are cheaper than
| for most of that time, but after you adjust for inflation
| and paying for bags, they were definitely cheaper in the
| mid-late 00s.
| hilux wrote:
| > But today fares are the lowest they've been in the history
| of aviation, except for during COVID which should never be
| factored into trends.
|
| Not from the US to Asia they're not.
|
| Not even close to the 3-5 years preceding Covid, when
| competition from Chinese airlines drove prices way down
| dumbfounder wrote:
| I have long wanted to build an engine that let's you book a
| vacation on points. You connect all the points programs you have
| and it shows you how to leverage them to get the best deals on
| flights and hotels. The trick here is that you can transfer
| points from credit cards to some airlines and hotels, and
| sometimes the points are worth more when transferred. But,
| integrating with all these systems is the problem, and it's a big
| problem. Especially since there is no way any of the players want
| this to happen. Maybe it could be built as a browser plugin?
| TZubiri wrote:
| I dream of a world where we can see a price and choose to pay
| it or not pay it and that's it.
| xur17 wrote:
| There are a number of sites that do this that have been
| released in the last few years. https://www.pointsyeah.com is
| probably my favorite since their free offering is very
| workable.
| TZubiri wrote:
| Aviato
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