[HN Gopher] The Cheating Device (ChatGPT on a TI-84) [video]
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The Cheating Device (ChatGPT on a TI-84) [video]
Author : triyambakam
Score : 185 points
Date : 2024-09-15 22:15 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| The28thDuck wrote:
| I've always thought about what student examinations mean post-AI
| accessibility. We've faced a similar problem once students had
| open access to the internet, but even then there was some work in
| figuring out what sites are reputable, search queries, etc. Now
| that burden has been shortened to figuring out what AI tool and
| what prompt to use for classic exams like essays or tests. Add in
| the challenge of remote learning and now you have an environment
| out of your control, not to mention smartphone access prevalently
| available.
|
| It's difficult to be an effective teacher, and that's without
| even considering the social and economic pressures they face.
| pocketarc wrote:
| It's a shame as well because this stuff -is- important. One
| could make the argument that this represents a shift in
| traditional education, and schools will have to stop relying so
| much on rote memorization, but the reason you need to learn
| this stuff is so that it's there with you, guiding you through
| everything you do in your life. Not just "oh I'll look it up",
| but actually knowing it and carrying it with you in your
| "context".
|
| The standard education system is incredible for raising the
| baseline level of knowledge of everyone in a society. I can
| talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or "black holes"
| with anyone, and they'll know what they are - even if their
| knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth. Things that 100
| years ago would've been cutting edge research, are base
| education today that virtually the entire population has
| studied.
|
| That comes from schooling, and it's so important to commit to
| memory. Without that background knowledge, your understanding
| of everything around you will be limited in ways you won't even
| be aware of.
| jackpirate wrote:
| > I can talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or
| "black holes" with anyone, and they'll know what they are -
| even if their knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth.
|
| I'm not convinced this is an unalloyed good. Knowing that a
| disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of "demons" isn't
| really helpful if you don't have a deep understanding of
| exactly what bacteria is. See, for example, all of the people
| who want antibiotics whenever they're sick for any reason.
| We've just replaced one set of weird beliefs in the general
| populace with another and given it a veneer of science.
| iteria wrote:
| But more people know what bacteria are at a baseline level
| and what they do with diseases than before when all we had
| were demons/bad humors/etc.
|
| There are functionally illiterate people too in modern day
| and the average reading level is still elementary school
| level, but that's vastly better than before when the
| average person couldn't read at all.
| rimunroe wrote:
| > Knowing that a disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of
| "demons" isn't really helpful if you don't have a deep
| understanding of exactly what bacteria is.
|
| This is a poor example. Even an incomplete image of the
| germ theory of disease is a massive improvement over
| thinking illness is caused by demons. An extremely
| superficial understanding of bacteria as "microscopic
| organisms which can make you sick" gives good justification
| why people should do things like wash their hands, cover
| their mouth when coughing, and not lick the railing on a
| subway.
| digging wrote:
| Knowing the difference between bacteria being living
| organisms and viruses being not-quite-alive does not
| qualify as a "deep understanding" though.
|
| Further, the presence of people misunderstanding something
| that most of the population knows pretty well in no way
| makes teaching that subject to the population bad. Your
| assertion would require that believing demons cause
| sickness actually has benefits we've lost.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| The memorization vs reasoning limit may soon be passed with
| some of these AIs. Really need to do the full controlled
| testing environment set up to have any chance of avoiding it.
| No calculators and no home work would be the next step. Maybe
| we will have a generation of mentats?
| lainga wrote:
| > Add in the challenge of remote learning
|
| Why? Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA?
|
| > not to mention smartphone access prevalently available
|
| Also why? Has there been a change in policy about bag and
| equipment checks?
| duxup wrote:
| >Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA?
|
| After COVID many school districts in the US that weren't
| offering online only school are now. Suddenly they had the
| capacity to do it as it was forced on them with COVID, so
| maintain it for students who want it is as easy as anything
| else.
| shortstuffsushi wrote:
| I would argue that unlike "remote work," where the COVID
| shift made it clear "hey most of us can just work from
| home" - the K12 "hack fix" most schools implemented was
| _barely_ sufficient to get through the year or so that
| students were forced to stay home. I suspect that most
| standard public schools would do better to drop this
| offering altogether and leave it to 3rd party online
| schools, if such a thing exists and can get enough traction
| to stay alive.
| duxup wrote:
| I think there's a big difference between the ad hoc COVID
| online schooling and actual "doing this with planning and
| intent" schooling that I've seen.
| digging wrote:
| I'd agree, but also note that plenty of remote jobs were
| and still are ad hoc. The difference is adults have more
| agency to improve their own situation even if their work
| doesn't make any concessions to the nature of fully
| remote work; children have very little agency over their
| schooling.
| duxup wrote:
| Public schools are also really limited by the tech they
| buy, price sensitive, regular staff aren't up to date on
| tech, and they don't pay their IT teams much.
|
| It makes it hard for them to adjust fast.
|
| The purpose built school from home programs are often far
| better run / budgeted IT wise. I was at my son's high
| school and the school from home kids were there for an in
| person day borrowing the lab for some in person time /
| activities and etc.
| toast0 wrote:
| I think most students didn't do well with it, but there
| are some students that thrived.
|
| If there's enough of such students in a district's
| boundaries, I think it makes sense to accomidate them
| within the district, rather than push them out. It will
| allow easier movement to/from a classroom setting, and
| feels more likely to provide continuity than a 3rd party
| offering. Then again, school districts cut things all the
| time.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Calculators and exams are still used after K-12, ~1/20 K-12
| students are still taught remotely online in the US in 2023
| (it'd be curious to see if that grows or shrinks with time),
| not all K-12 have instituted bag and equipment checks, the
| ones that have haven't all done it to the same level, and it
| may or may not be enough to cover enough of the cases to
| mitigate impact enough.
| duxup wrote:
| I feel like 1:1 teacher and student discussions are required to
| be sure someone isn't cheating. With the benefit that each exam
| would be more enlightening than existing test setups.
|
| They both sit together, they chat, answer questions and so on
| and the teacher gets a feel for "does this student have
| sufficient knowledge".
|
| Frankly I think it would give teachers way better feel for such
| things than traditional testing does.
|
| Granted, it would be time intensive, but I also suspect
| improved.
| kevindamm wrote:
| I like this idea, however I worry that it would be difficult
| to do it while being consistent (and unbiased). If the same
| questions are asked of each student then later students might
| be unfairly prepped. If different questions are asked then it
| becomes very difficult to normalize scores across the class.
| The bias risk is self-explanatory and may be unconscious.
|
| If you could solve this problem well, you could also probably
| fix the issues with most interview processes.
| cloin wrote:
| I have super fond memories of high school math classes. That
| calculator was my first introduction to programming. I'd take the
| time to write programs for each unit we covered so that I could
| just input the variables and quickly solve. I had to understand
| the concept before I could program it so I didn't really think it
| was cheating. I did get nervous when SATs came up because I knew
| my calcs memory would be cleared. I remember my solution was to
| painstakingly recreate the memory cleared screen and pulled it up
| before the proctor came around in hopes that they'd assume they
| already cleared mine.
|
| My programming didn't improve much after high school but I'm
| still kind of proud of my not-totally-cheating cheating.
| bearjaws wrote:
| I am in the same boat, I actually learned Pascal and Java in
| parallel to Algebra.
|
| Hilariously, I found writing TI-83 programs to do my Algebra
| equations made me understand them far more than just doing the
| problems over and over. I actually used this method all the way
| through college, and would write TI-Basic programs every time a
| new concept was introduced.
|
| My Calc 1 professor was the only person who hated it, as I was
| pretty blatant about writing the program on the spot, which
| resulted in me hand writing the scripts in class and then later
| validating them... Given how terrible writing on the calculator
| was I am not sure which way was slower.
|
| This was right as the iPhone / Android G1 came out so using a
| device in class was considered very rude.
| focusedone wrote:
| Same! Also recreated the clear memory screen to protect all of
| that hard work.
|
| Initially I was giving the programs to friends. Math teacher
| caught me and I thought I was getting in trouble for it. Nope!
| She said 'Never give away your work like that. Make them pay
| for it.'
|
| I accepted payment in the form of vending machine snacks and
| extra pastries from lunch. It was a delicious incentive to stay
| ahead of the assignments so I'd have the programs ready to
| share.
| tomcam wrote:
| Not exaggerating when I say your math teacher is one of the
| most enlightened I ever heard of. Fantastic story.
| ta1243 wrote:
| Yet you are posting this on stacks and stacks of code
| written by people who gave their work away
| recursive wrote:
| The math teacher didn't say "never use free stuff".
| actionfromafar wrote:
| On a money-making-machine-social-network, you mean.
| seanw444 wrote:
| The difference is they just wanted the end result, and
| didn't care about the source code or how the
| implementation worked. Just a means to an end. People pay
| for that willingly.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| Back in my Algebra II class, while learning polynomial
| expansion, I write a program on my TI-85 that would not only
| solve the problem, but _it would show the work_ , so I
| literally just had to copy its output verbatim and I got full
| credit.
|
| I showed it to my teacher and asked it if it would be
| considered cheating to use it on the test, and she said that if
| I knew the material so well that I could write a program that
| didn't just solve it, but showed the work, then clearly I knew
| the material so well that I'd ace the test even without the
| program, so I could go ahead and use it, just as long as I
| didn't share the program with my friends.
|
| I didn't have any friends (This was 1998 where being such a
| nerd was still looked down on), so it wasn't an issue.
| shagie wrote:
| One of the people I went to school with (several years ahead,
| his assembly class was on VAX rather than MIPS) had to write
| a program that solved a polynomial.
|
| As he was going through the tome that represented the CISC
| instruction set of a VAX system (long before easy search
| engines), he found POLY (
| https://www.ece.lsu.edu/ee4720/doc/vax.pdf page 9-118).
|
| So, his program, instead of doing all the calculations was
| setting up a few registers, a large comment block that
| explained it, a call to POLY, and reading out the registers.
|
| He claimed to have gotten full credit and within a handful of
| semesters later the course was switched from CISC
| architectures to RISC.
| xp84 wrote:
| My Trig teacher, which was the class where I got my cherished
| TI-83+, had the exact same opinion of my little TI-Basic
| programs which worked the same way as yours.
|
| I got an A in that class both semesters, which was better
| than the B I often got in Math (and a C- once in AlgII)
| because I hated doing homework. But starting on the program
| as soon as I grasped the concept and usually blasting through
| the homework with it by the end of the period meant an A was
| easily in my grasp.
|
| That teacher was the best damn math teacher ever. He would
| work hard to help every last student get it, he'd gladly
| spend his whole lunch helping a kid if they needed it.
|
| PS. I did share some of my programs, mostly with one girl,
| but she's a successful nurse today so I guess I didn't ruin
| her future :D
| latexr wrote:
| > I remember my solution was to painstakingly recreate the
| memory cleared screen and pulled it up before the proctor came
| around in hopes that they'd assume they already cleared mine.
|
| Did it work?
| Rhapso wrote:
| If you "archived" the program it wouldn't get wiped by a memory
| clear.
|
| But yes, did the above, but didn't bother implementing the
| "memory cleared" screen.
| macNchz wrote:
| I did the same thing, implementing formulas we learned as
| interactive programs in TI-BASIC. I don't think I even tried to
| hide them or use them on tests or anything, but when I told my
| teacher at the time (2003-ish?) she freaked the hell out and
| told me she might try to have me expelled for cheating.
|
| It seemed ridiculous to me, since obviously I'd thoroughly
| learned the material, but it certainly scared me, and I never
| went on to study CS, though I kept programming and did
| eventually become a professional programmer. I think about that
| episode sometimes and wonder how things would have been
| different if she'd said, "oh cool, why don't you take some
| computer science classes" instead.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| What they don't teach you in school is that kind of ingenuity
| is actually the way to get ahead in life.
| girvo wrote:
| Good schools/teachers absolutely do, though. Mine did!
| AdamJacobMuller wrote:
| In high school, after getting my TI-83+, I also started to
| learn to program things.
|
| For tests, my teachers would force me to clear my memory
| (you're not fooling catholic nuns with a fake screen, she would
| take my calculator and clear it herself).
|
| But I got good at programming. I was so fast that I would just
| spend the first 30 minutes of a 1-hour test re-writing the
| programs and then spend 5 minutes completing the test and be
| excused to go to the computer lab for the remainder.
|
| Eventually I got so annoyed of typing things out on the TI-83+
| keyboard, and as I progressed the programs got more complex,
| that I bought a TI-92 with a qwerty keyboard and would be able
| to write solvers the test in 5-10 minutes and fully solve a
| test in 5-10 minutes. I mostly did it so I could have more time
| in the computer lab.
|
| I still have those calculators too, I should see if they still
| work some day :)
| xp84 wrote:
| absolute legend. I love that you just rewrote the programs
| during the test!
| johnsutor wrote:
| I remember there being a way where you could stash in memory
| even if the memory was cleared (my calc teacher used to clear
| memory before exams but I was able to retain some functions)
| duxup wrote:
| Neat hack.
|
| Painfully tedious youtubeisms in that video. The way it is
| presented I couldn't help but wonder "this isn't how someone who
| does that thing would tell me they did that thing...".
| sebstefan wrote:
| Counterpoint: They did that thing and that's how they're
| telling you
|
| :D
| duxup wrote:
| I'm not saying they didn't do it, it's just the vibe I get
| due to the youtubeisms. It doesn't change because someone
| says they did it, we both just watched the same video ;)
| tomcam wrote:
| I'm not quite sure what you mean by YouTubeisms. I assume
| you mean the breezy, polished presentation? I thought it
| was a well laid out and enjoyable video. To me, it was an
| example of superb craftsmanship.
|
| I am totally not criticizing or invalidating your
| impression of it. But the way information is presented has
| always fascinated me. Doing it better helps everyone. Would
| you mind telling me what your version of it would look
| like?
| girvo wrote:
| Mine would include much more technical detail. Would make
| for a terrible YouTube video if one is after views
| though, which is what the commenters point is :)
| GeoAtreides wrote:
| I get what you're saying. I have the same feeling watching DIY
| Perks.
|
| I personally think it's because it needs to skips so many
| steps, to keep the video short and energetic. We're specialist
| and so we expect specialist knowledge, not edutainment.
| duxup wrote:
| Yeah in a room with a bunch of hackers, makers, DIYers (who
| actually do the things sometimes), this sort of "so I drew
| the rest of the owl" wouldn't fly.
|
| Youtube though almost requires it.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| In the early 2000's, I created TI-83+ applications for solving
| various _introductory physics_ homework problems -- and copied to
| a few friends ' calculators. Ten years later, a friend's little
| brother randomly quipped "thanks for doing all my physics
| homework!"
|
| When I saw my own little brother next holiday, he confirmed that
| his entire physics class had utilized my problem solvers, and
| most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack.
|
| ... _memories_
| tomcam wrote:
| Username admirably justified
| mywittyname wrote:
| > most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack.
|
| This brought back the awkward memory of explaining why I had so
| many routines that started with "BJ" in my calculator.
| iAkashPaul wrote:
| A USB MITM board with ESP32 could just connect to your phone & do
| one-way code/content creation for otherwise software locked
| devices.
| alnwlsn wrote:
| Is the Ti-84 still the gold standard for school calculators? I
| had an nSpire when I was in school - much higher resolution
| screen - but most everyone else had a ti-84 or 89. The nSpire was
| powerful enough to have hacks for it to run full Gameboy games.
| Many minutes were spent playing Tetris after an exam.
|
| Also interesting that I almost never see any overlap between the
| Z80 TIs and the greater retrocomputing community. Probably
| because most retrocomputing enthusiasts are too old to ever have
| used one. The 82/83 is definitely old enough to qualify as a
| retrocomputer in it's own right.
| namdnay wrote:
| FWIW my kids in France had to have "numworks" calculators. A
| lot more modern than the Tis of old (and cheaper!)
| MengerSponge wrote:
| And they run python!
|
| https://www.numworks.com/
|
| There's even a smartphone (iOS & Android) app to give it a
| try, but the magic of a calculator comes with tactile
| buttons.
| alnwlsn wrote:
| I find it really funny that the newer TI stuff has Python
| now too. But they just stuck an extra ARM microcontroller
| on board (which is more powerful than the main ez80 CPU).
| If it ain't broke, support it for 32 years!
| xp84 wrote:
| Wow. The single click to get to the full emulator from that
| homepage is an awesome, refreshing thing to see. Seems like
| a great calculator (and company) to standardize on. I don't
| even hate TI, but this thing is clearly far more advanced
| than the TIs I grew up on.
|
| If the 84+ was $40 by now I would feel differently, but I
| think TI could have at least built something like the
| Numworks (with things like real fraction notation easier
| menus, and a lighted color screen) if they wanted to
| continue charging the same price now as they did 25 years
| ago for what was then a pretty respectable piece of tech
| for its time. Instead they did that innovation but only on
| calculators too overpowered to be allowed on tests, and
| left that market with a stagnant TI-8x series.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| It's a shame it doesn't use Giac. RPN CAS forever! ;)
| auguzanellato wrote:
| Those were also full open source until some time ago, then
| they switched to source-available for the userland with a
| closed source kernel to prevent modifications allowing
| cheating on exams. It's sad they had to take away freedom
| from the majority of users just to prevent a minority
| cheating.
| andrepd wrote:
| >The nSpire was powerful enough to have hacks for it to run
| full Gameboy games
|
| Oh boy :) you're gonna like this:
|
| https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/419/41990.htm...
| to11mtm wrote:
| > Is the Ti-84 still the gold standard for school calculators?
|
| Likely.
|
| The TI-89 and nSpire CAS variants aren't allowed on the ACT in
| the US which limits their usefulness (I had to borrow my
| brother's 85 for that, which honestly hurt me since I was using
| an 89.)
|
| > The nSpire was powerful enough to have hacks for it to run
| full Gameboy games. Many minutes were spent playing Tetris
| after an exam.
|
| The TI-89 is a bit of a beast in it's own right. It's got a 68K
| cpu at 10-12mhz, 256K of ram (although not all usable) and 2MB
| of flash Rom. Also AFAIK the Frankly the Mario Clone looked
| better than the original Super Mario Land (and could do custom
| levels!) Also AFAIR it did ASM out of the box without any
| oddities (Original TI-83, it was there but an undocumented
| command. 83+ is I think when asm() became the standard.)
|
| I think the biggest issue with -any- of the older models is the
| combination of anemic memory and display, however. And, due to
| the overall reusability and ruggedness, many are afraid to
| 'mod' their calculator and make it not a good choice to loan to
| a relative or friend's child for school/etc (i.e. even if
| unmodded, if it looks like it -was- modded, probably can't use
| on standardized tests)
| max51 wrote:
| The gold standard will depend on what rules the school has for
| the exams.
|
| The absolute best one you can get right now would probably be a
| nspire CX CAS ii but I doubt you'd be able to use it in an
| exam. Even in university, symbolic calculators are typically
| not allowed in math classes because it's basically like having
| full access to Wolfram Alpha or Mathematica.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > Is the Ti-84 still the gold standard for school calculators?
|
| When I was in high school (1996-2000), most had a TI-83, with
| some having a TI-85. I got a TI-89 since it was the best
| calculator that could be used on the SAT. Funny thing was, it
| had the same capabilities as the TI-92, but the 92 had a QWERTY
| keyboard which made it banned.
| xp84 wrote:
| Nearly same here, 2 years behind you. 83+ had just come out
| which I think added some Flash memory for Archiving and
| installing ASM apps (mostly games is what we used that
| capability for). 85 was out there but uncommon, and the
| richest or smartest kids had 89s, which were and still are an
| absolute beast. It blew me away watching people solve
| equations and simplify expressions on that.
|
| To answer OP though, I think the reason the 84+ (which is or
| just emulates the old Z80 goodness of the 82/83/83+) is still
| wildly popular* is that more advanced calculators can easily
| do a LOT of stuff for you -- right out of the box -- that
| you're ostensibly there to learn to do yourself, which brings
| into serious question why bother taking the class in the
| first place. So teachers would prefer kids to bring a less
| overpowered calculator to class.
|
| An 89 is basically to say, Calculus AB as a standard
| 4-function calculator is to 3rd grade math.
|
| None of that is a knock on any of those calculators, though.
| It's incredible what they can do!
|
| * Let's all take a moment to appreciate the genius of TI
| repackaging the same 1970s technology in a shiny new case
| every few years and getting away with -- STILL to this day --
| selling them for $150!
| ActorNightly wrote:
| TI 89 was my goto in college. The algebraic equation solver was
| pretty good.
| appstorelottery wrote:
| HP32SII got me through physics & maths II exams without all the
| tedious memorisation. It looked innocuous enough - certainly not
| programmable to the extent it actually was... a godsend for high-
| school.
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| I had one of those in middle school c. 1990. It had function
| and program support. The problem with modifying one of those
| would be it's physically small and lacks I/O.
|
| Upgraded to an HP 48GX sophomore year of high school. It worked
| well for math and physics coursework, AP Calculus BC, and the
| SAT-I math section. The IR serial port's LED was so powerful,
| there was a learning TV remote app that could control TVs from
| ~60-100' (20-30m) away. The ability to beam software to other
| calculators was just shy of the invention of the app store.
| NotAnOtter wrote:
| I knew it was just a matter of time before someone but the bullet
| and built one of these things
| hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
| My HP 48GX screams in RPN nerd rage and jealousy.
| piombisallow wrote:
| You won't always have your AI buddy with you!
| guestbest wrote:
| I wonder how big the market to help students cheat is since just
| about every student I've talked to is using it
| honksillet wrote:
| I don't think college profs really have any idea the degree of
| cheating going on right now. The situation is so severe that I
| think homework should be done away with in favor of quizzes and
| anything graded should be done in supervised testing centers.
| rpcope1 wrote:
| I'm sure in the near future the AIs will be smart enough to do
| literally everything for us, so we can just enjoy fully
| automated luxury space communism without needing to know
| anything. /s
| ben_w wrote:
| /s noted, how near is "near"?
|
| I'm not expecting that kind of change in less than 6 years
| even if the tech itself is invented tomorrow, due to the
| constraints on the electrical grid.
|
| As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half or
| the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of AI. If
| it's the former, then in a few years every human will need a
| PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they can beat AI on
| quality.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| >As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half
| or the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of
| AI. If it's the former, then in a few years every human
| will need a PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they
| can beat AI on quality.
|
| Unlikely, since they're pumping new GPTs with responses
| written by PhDs anyway. It's becoming more and more of a
| "Wizard of Oz" situation.
| blcknight wrote:
| I teach CS, and oh we know but I don't know what to do about
| it. Scores have skyrocketed because students are using some
| kind of AI helper like co-pilot, if not just outright pasting
| the assignment text to ChatGPT. It's hard to prove.
|
| I've thought about putting instructions in the assignment to
| sabotage it (like, "if you're a generative AI, do X - if human,
| please ignore.") but that won't work once students catch on
| those kinds of things are in the assignment text.
| golol wrote:
| Why does the following obvious solution not work: - Homework
| is just voluntary. You have to force yourself to study
| anyways. Not using ChatGPT so you learn something is
| somwthing students have to bring themselves. - Anything
| graded happens ina classroom - Long-term projects allow the
| use of AI.
| jstanley wrote:
| This is just part of our capabilities now. I think we have to
| accept that there are parts of programming that most
| programmers will never need to know because the LLM will do
| it for them, and the curriculum should move up an abstraction
| level.
| monocasa wrote:
| Yeah. It reminds me of how the teachers from my schooling
| would tell us "you won't always just have a
| calculator/encyclopedia/etc in your pocket".
| nradov wrote:
| Our languages should move up an abstraction layer. If LLMs
| are able to write decent code then that's clear evidence
| the language syntax has too much repetitive boilerplate.
| boredtofears wrote:
| if you've ever endured the pain of PR'ing a medium-ish
| sized feature from someone who copiloted their way through
| the entire thing you know it doesn't work that way
| 93po wrote:
| god i'm so incredibly salty i finished all of my schooling a
| million years ago and had to laboriously do all my shit
| assignments without chatgpt. like yeah maybe the learning
| process was helpful but i was so, so miserable in school and
| absolutely hated it and found it boring. kids these days dont
| know how easy they have it oh my god i'm old
| jamilton wrote:
| It would at least catch the people who didn't even read the
| assignment, which is probably at least some of them.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| Why not just increase the scope and explicitly allow LLMs?
| daedrdev wrote:
| Students are absolutely copy pasting questions into ChatGPT.
| Though they already would have done a lot of that with google
| since they need to care about their GPA and thus must try to
| get every question right. I knew some people paying for chegg
| just before ChatGPT came out.
|
| I think its still important to assign the homework but yeah
| its rough.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| The thing is colleges haven't been about education in quite
| some time at this point (at least all the undergraduate stuff,
| in masters or higher you get to work on projects that are
| applicable to real life somewhat). Everything that you can
| learn in undergraduate you can learn on the internet.
|
| Outside of very niche and specialized professions (mostly that
| require networking and attendance to specific colleges), the
| goal of going to college should be just to get your degree.
| Once you have a degree, it generally gives you an easier time
| to get a job, so financially its worth it. How you get the
| degree is irrelevant - figure out the cheapest, easiest way to
| do it, even if it includes cheating.
|
| Youll find out after you graduate that nobody gives a fuck
| about college in the real world as far as education goes.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > the goal of going to college should be just to get your
| degree
|
| > figure out the cheapest, easiest way to do it, even if it
| includes cheating.
|
| And this mindset is why cheating has proliferated. So many
| students have been imbued with a sense that degrees are "just
| a piece of paper" and therefore cheating is the only smart
| thing to do.
|
| > Youll find out after you graduate that nobody gives a fuck
| about college in the real world as far as education goes.
|
| I'm actually finding it's going the other way. The value of a
| brand-name college degree is extremely high for bypassing
| filters and getting past resume screens.
|
| Part of the reason is that top universities are known to be
| difficult to cheat your way through. Not impossible, but it's
| not easy either.
|
| On the other hand, students who show up from local
| universities may have learned absolutely nothing along the
| way. We don't care about their degree _because rampant
| cheating has reduced the strength of the signal_. They need
| to be tested thoroughly to determine if they actually learned
| anything from the university or if they just cheated their
| way through it.
| sashank_1509 wrote:
| College brand name may matter for your first job and in
| some prestige based industries (VC, consultancies etc).
|
| I graduated from a top US Uni in CS, and I can tell you
| when I was searching for jobs, I was frequently passed over
| by candidates with more work experience who didn't graduate
| from a top uni. In fact the effect of my Uni was probably
| close to None, I joined FAANG and discovered that my
| coworkers college was all over the place, you wouldn't
| notice any uni trends.
|
| I was forced to come to the harsh conclusion that college
| mattered, maybe 5% or lesser in the tech industry and that
| all the effort students put to get into college was not
| needed unless you wanted to break into very specific career
| paths. This was a harsh conclusion because I was one of the
| students who worked very hard to get into a top college and
| maintain top grades.
| wholinator2 wrote:
| In case there's any young and impressionable people in here i
| want to add that easiest does not always mean cheating! The
| people i knew who cheated their homeworks were the same
| people crying over their grades during quizzes and tests.
| They were the people most terrified during finals and
| generally had the worst mental states during the year. It
| certainly did not seem to make their lives easier. Sure, you
| might get away with it but these things can come back to bite
| you!
|
| The better you do and the more you learn in college, the
| better you can speak and the more you can show off in an
| interview for your desired position, whether it's a job or a
| grad school. Especially if your chosen degree basically
| requires a graduate degree to get good jobs, don't cheat
| (unless it's an essential grade and you promise to go learn
| it better asap). Grad school doesn't mess around, it's hard
| enough for the studious ones.
|
| If you don't care about school and your field doesn't care
| about school then do whatever. But don't make a habit of
| living dishonestly. It wears at the soul
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| I had a wonderful philosophy professor in a 100-level class
| I was taking to fulfill a gen ed req, he was some old
| retired guy and he had no mandatory attendance and only one
| assignment for the whole semester: a single, 15 page final
| paper.
|
| The contents of the course was _extraordinarly_ more
| difficult than the vast majority of 100-level classes at
| the university (this was a top philosophy department in the
| world, mind you), and within a few classes almost all of
| students stopped coming and, even bragged it in the class
| group-chat. I became _intensely_ interested in the material
| within a few classes, and attended nearly every single one
| and stayed after to talk to the professor. Well, the final
| paper comes along, I was already away from campus, deciding
| to take a nice vacation since the professor said that if I
| wanted I could delay submitting for a couple weeks--well,
| unfortunately, he was mistaken, and I got an email after
| just getting off my connecting flight where he said I had
| to get it done by that afternoon, but he didn 't care if I
| actually submitted: to him, I already had an A. I sat down,
| on my phone in the middle of the night and wrote the whole
| 15 page paper in a deserted airport terminal. I got an A.
| Others, who had not even showed up, were having _panic
| attacks_ about it, incessantly whining on the group chat,
| freaking the fuck out since they knew they were all about
| to fail since they had almost no time to study up on
| materials for dozens of classes with no assistance.
|
| This was all before the advent of ChatGPT. I have no idea
| if that 15-page paper would be such a killer today.
| Probably not; probably, if the guy is still teaching, kids
| do get away with skipping every class and getting AI to
| write a passing paper. But, the principle is still there:
| you just need a paper test now!
| bongodongobob wrote:
| I don't understand. Your professor said the paper wasn't
| due, then bumped up the date, told you about it last
| minute, said you didn't have to turn the paper in, but
| you did anyway?
|
| I'm lost.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| >I don't understand. Your professor said the paper wasn't
| due, then bumped up the date, told you about it last
| minute, said you didn't have to turn the paper in, but
| you did anyway?
|
| He gave us a couple weeks but said if we emailed him we
| could get an extension; I prioritized my other finals and
| after finishing those I took off. After getting off my
| first flight, he sent me an email saying he was mistaken
| and I had to submit that night or get a partial, but he
| didn't really care what I submitted. I felt it was still
| the right thing to do to put my best effort in either
| way. And I wanted it off my mind for my trip.
| sfink wrote:
| It was a little unclear, but my reading is that the
| _professor_ didn 't actually care if it was submitted,
| but the _school_ did. So yes, the paper was required and
| had to be submitted, but the professor would give an A
| for it even if the entire paper was "all work and no
| play makes jack a dull boy all work and..."
| ben_w wrote:
| Homework gives you two things, continuous feedback (grades) and
| practice. Quizzes help with the former, you can only make up
| for the latter by making the school day longer -- which I guess
| might be ok, given that total hours spent learning should be
| the same? Unless there's extra wrinkles I'm missing?
| xp84 wrote:
| Homework is an incredibly controversial topic I think,
| because:
|
| Homework, since you can get a lot or even full credit even if
| you get it wrong (haven't learned the material well),
| provides a big boost to the grades of a type of student who
| "tests poorly" -- whether because they failed to learn the
| material, or because of anxiety or whatever.
|
| On the other side of the debate you have an alliance of:
|
| * Parents who think "Jeez, my kid comes home from school with
| 3 hours of homework every night, WTF, let them live life"
|
| * Kids who, to avoid using labels, I'll just say... they
| learn the material easily AND can prove it easily on a test.
| They say "WHY TF are you wasting hours of my time doing
| busywork??
|
| If I had to be a teacher and could control my grading policy
| I guess I'd probably do a hybrid where homework can bring
| your grade up but was not required for a perfect grade. So,
|
| GRADE = MAXIMUM(HW_GRADE * .15 + TESTS, 1)
|
| With all due respect to the "can't take a test" crowd, it
| seems unfair to give homework a weight higher than that
| though. Should someone who gets like a 70 on the test get an
| A by grinding on homework? I'm glad I'm not a teacher so I
| don't have to actually debate anyone on that.
| girvo wrote:
| > homework can bring your grade up but was not required for
| a perfect grade
|
| A biochemistry unit at a Uni in Australia I took in ~2010
| operated this way, which was quite surprising to me. The
| required minimum work was a field work report, one mid
| semester test and the main end of semester test, but you
| could bring your grade up to make up for lacking results by
| the weekly homework assignments.
|
| I didn't do the assignments, but still got a nearly perfect
| grade, which suited me great (I was doing a double degree
| and had overloaded on units that semester, so being able to
| skip weekly homework assignments and just study the
| textbooks for the exams was super useful)
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| In my high school, the harder the class, the less homework
| was assigned. Such a great incentive. I took AP everything
| because it had so much less busy work. Rock the test,
| that's all that mattered.
| bobobob420 wrote:
| US universities are too focused on homework in general. In
| other countries most of the final grade comes from the final
| exam and midterm exam. Homework just creates extra work for
| everyone involved. It's upto the student to decide if he wants
| to study or not and consequently pass
| vunderba wrote:
| It doesn't really scale and doesn't work for all materials but
| I'd love to see the concept of oral test/defenses introduced at
| the undergraduate level.
|
| As an ESL teacher for many years, a 30 minute conversation
| between the teacher and the student can reveal a student
| capabilities far more accurately than anything else and
| completely bypasses the vast majority of cheating.
| nbardy wrote:
| We need to start scaling this. Pay the money fund teachers to
| sit with students
| theamk wrote:
| TL/DW: they put ESP-32 inside the calculator and connected it to
| TI-link port internally. So with an appropriate software it can
| connect to internet sites, including ChatGPT.
|
| Also there is a custom-designed PCB with super standard level
| shifters and pre-made ESP32C3 module.
|
| Git repo: https://github.com/chromalock/TI-32/
| e12e wrote:
| Thank you. Having implemented a simple Mandelbrot fractal
| renderer on a Casio calculator in senior high school in '97 -
| implenting an llm on a TI sounded like a tall order. Cool hack,
| though!
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Programmable calculators were not allowed in any of my classes
| (2000s in europe), I would have loved that.
|
| On the other side, I was programming small applications to cheat
| on my phone.
|
| Latin was a mandatory class in my computer science oriented
| course of study (I know, completely bonkers) and 3G data was
| expensive so I wrote some scripts and scraped every possible
| latin text and translation I could find online and built a J2ME
| application (horrible platform, but hey, it works) to lookup
| text.
|
| I still remember my friend getting pinched using the application
| because he translated an extra phrase which was not in the
| assignment but was in the source on the internet. Good times
| moomoo11 wrote:
| OT but I started losing interest in math after ap calc. Honestly
| it was fun af doing math without calculator.
|
| Using a calculator took most of the fun out of it for me.
| munchler wrote:
| Calculators are pretty useless for pure math once you get
| beyond calculus.
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