[HN Gopher] GM electric vehicles can now access Tesla Superchargers
___________________________________________________________________
GM electric vehicles can now access Tesla Superchargers
Author : ivewonyoung
Score : 94 points
Date : 2024-09-18 16:49 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
| darknavi wrote:
| Great step. NACS is so nice compared to CCS 1. Can't wait for
| this to standardize and EV charging stations to stop being so
| novel.
| PaulWaldman wrote:
| This still feels a long way off. I have yet to encounter a
| charger, not made by Tesla, that has an NACS plug.
| MBCook wrote:
| Either EA or EVgo just deployed their first one in the last
| few weeks.
| bluGill wrote:
| Everyone in the US has committed to NACS in the next couple
| years. The others are aware of this and if they are not
| completely stupid making plans. They will probably support
| CCS for a while in some form, but they will be doing NACS in
| the near future. It might be like regular/premium/diesel
| fuels - pumps support more than one hose (though wire is more
| expensive than a hose).
| peutetre wrote:
| > _They will probably support CCS for a while_
|
| NACS is CCS with a different plug on the end. Tesla's
| charging standard is to die off, CCS will be the standard
| going forward.
|
| Here's a real world demonstration of a charger with J3400
| plugs (aka Tesla's plug):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI
|
| It works on a Chevy Bolt because it is CCS.
| rconti wrote:
| So what does this mean for a Tesla on an NACS charger? Do
| they already support CCS over that port, or is it a
| software update?
|
| I know Teslas were already CCS in Europe, so I wouldn't
| be surprised if the software is already basically there.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Older Teslas (approx 2019 and older) need a hardware
| update.
| rconti wrote:
| Damn, ouch. Seems crazy that they're now in the position
| of breaking supercharger compatibility with existing
| cars.
| theluketaylor wrote:
| No compatibility break as far as I know. I believe V3
| superchargers speak CCS to 2019 and newer cars and
| fallback to the older Tesla-proprietary communication if
| necessary.
| theluketaylor wrote:
| Tesla version 3 superchargers already use CCS for
| communication between car and charger for 2019 and later
| vehicles.
|
| Version 2 superchargers do not speak CCS and won't ever
| be opened to non-Tesla vehicles and there are certain
| routes where that's quite annoying. My most common road
| trip has 5 supercharger locations along the way with 3 of
| them being V2, including the most isolated charger. Even
| once the NACS changeover happens taking a non-tesla on
| that journey will be a real pain.
|
| Tesla has not put any resources into converting V2 sites
| into V3s. Some of the locations have been expanded with
| the new additions being V3, but I haven't seen much in
| the way of switchover.
| browningstreet wrote:
| That is the definition of the current state.
|
| Fortunately for the future state, they can be changed.
| flurie wrote:
| I'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow down
| onboarding of other automakers to their charging network, so it's
| good to see information to the contrary.
|
| I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla in
| the long run. They did not charge licensing fees for the
| connector, and even if they charge a premium to charge non-Tesla
| vehicles, now owners of Tesla vehicles are going to run into
| situations where a Chevy Bolt has to double park to use a Tesla
| fast charger at <=50kW, doubly driving down utilization.
| tensor wrote:
| Yeah, I can't see how it's great for Tesla other than I guess
| extra revenue from charging. But the infrastructure already is
| somewhat constrained, so yes there will be more lines now at
| superchargers.
|
| On the other hand, I'm happy we're not heading down the path of
| shitty walled gardens of charging, eventually Tesla owners will
| also benefit from being able to charge more easily at 3rd party
| chargers. For humanity this is a good thing, and increases
| overall efficiency of infrastructure greatly.
| MBCook wrote:
| They had to open their chargers to get some of the benefits
| from that big bill a year or two ago (build back better?).
|
| That may be why. In low use areas it may be a nice ROI.
|
| I've heard in high use areas things could already be bad from
| the increase in Teslas sold and piling Fords, GMs, and
| Rivians in isn't going to lighten the load any.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| Bipartisan Infrastructure Law,
| https://driveelectric.gov/news/new-cfi-funding-released
|
| > _This funding opportunity is made possible by the
| Bipartisan Infrastructure Law's signature EV charging
| investments: the $2.5 billion Charging and Fueling
| Infrastructure (CFI) Discretionary Grant Program and funds
| from the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI)
| Formula Program that are set aside for strategic grants to
| states and local governments to deploy EV chargers._
|
| It seems like Tesla's behavior has been much better in
| Europe, and I'm not sure what explains the discrepancy.
| MBCook wrote:
| They didn't have a choice. My understand is the EU
| dictated all cars have the IEC Type 2(?) connector to
| sell, so Tesla complied. No mess like the US.
|
| The US had no such law and has refused to make one. We've
| gone with the traditional carrot approach where they
| wouldn't get funds to built more superchargers without
| doing this due to the infrastructure law. But it was
| their choice and they didn't have to.
| rpmisms wrote:
| Seems like the US free market approach is winning yet
| again, where the superior product is becoming the
| standard, and the inventor of the superior product is
| profiting.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| No licensing fees, but they are charging a premium for non-
| Teslas to use the superchargers.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| Do you have a source showing they are charging higher prices
| for non Teslas?
| emilecantin wrote:
| This is common knowledge. I don't have a link to send you,
| but I've just looked up the closest supercharger on the
| Tesla website and it charges 0.55$ / kWh for NACS vehicles,
| while in my Tesla app the same supercharger shows 0.42$ /
| kWh.
| connicpu wrote:
| I feel bad for people who can't charge at home. I get to
| charge at my residential 11.5C//kWh. Though I don't go
| far from home very often so I've never charged anywhere
| else. If I wasn't getting this rate the savings over gas
| would get a lot narrower.
| rstupek wrote:
| My electric plan has free evenings so I charge for free!
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| As much of an EV enthusiast as I am, I tell people that
| if they can't charge at home, don't get an EV.
|
| I'm in a similar boat, my electricity is I think 11
| cents/kWh. $8.25 to completely charge my battery, which
| will then get me ~250 miles. The cost-per-mile is
| equivalent to getting over 125 mpg.
| dabinat wrote:
| I've been driving EVs for six years now and I do not have
| the ability to charge at home or work. It's been a non-
| issue. I charge late at night and it's about $0.18/kWh
| which is still way less than gas.
|
| Obviously it's more convenient if you can charge at home
| or work, but I disagree that such a thing is mandatory to
| own an EV.
| rconti wrote:
| Here in the bay area, my at home charging costs are very
| close to a supercharger. something like 35c vs 40c.
| coryrc wrote:
| The price usually varies over the day; in the morning
| (until ~10am IIRC) and late at night here in the Seattle
| area it's 14C//kWh for supercharging and my residential
| electricity is around 11C//kWh.
|
| But, if you can't charge at work nor at home, EV car
| isn't worth it.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| From the article: GM is also updating its brand apps to
| allow customers to search for available Superchargers,
| check station status, initiate a charge, and pay for
| charging sessions. Tesla has said that non-Tesla owners
| would have to pay a little more to charge their vehicles
| than Tesla owners.
| tencentshill wrote:
| It's in the article: "Tesla has said that non-Tesla owners
| would have to pay a little more to charge their vehicles
| than Tesla owners."
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| In Europe Tesla offer a subscription that gives you the
| same prices as Teslas get. Otherwise you pay more. Of
| course Tesla then makes a profit on the subscription cost.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| No licensing fees to use the _connector_ but do we know they
| didn 't pay any fees for access to Tesla's chargers?
|
| EDIT - at least in Ford's case they've stated that they
| aren't https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-
| supercharging-par...
| LargeWu wrote:
| As a non-Tesla EV owner, I would happily pay surcharges for
| charging on Tesla's network if it meant I could reliably
| use my vehicle on extended trips out of town. Tesla
| charging network has a very good reputation for
| reliability, which is a primary concern if I'm traveling on
| the highway. It's not something I do often, so paying a
| premium once in a while to use my EV instead of my ICE
| vehicle seems like a decent tradeoff.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| There was someone on a EV Road Tripping group on Facebook
| mentioning how they took an EV from Florida to New Jersey
| and talked about how awful it was.
|
| The top comment said something that every EV enthusiast
| knows. There are two wildly different charging
| experiences: Tesla, and everyone else.
|
| Can you have a good experience with a non-Tesla? Sure!
| But with a Tesla, having a good experience is nearly
| guaranteed. With anyone else, it's a gamble.
|
| You go to a Electrify America or some other charging
| network location, and you'll likely find only 2-4 stalls,
| and likely 1 or more of them are broken. Go to a Tesla
| Supercharger, and there's usually 8-16 chargers, all
| working. Even with a broken stall (It happens), you've
| got more available. And with so many stalls, and so many
| locations, it's exceptionally rare to get to a charging
| location and finding all of them in use.
|
| This last week I took a road trip in my Model 3 from
| Portland to San Diego. 2,400 miles round trip. Never ran
| into a charging issue. I did see that a couple locations
| had a stall that was out of order, but with so many
| stalls, it wasn't an issue at all.
| kelnos wrote:
| Ugh, please don't take this stance.
|
| Gas stations don't charge different amounts for gas
| depending on the type of car, and EV charging stations
| shouldn't be permitted to do so either.
|
| I don't have an EV, but I agree that Tesla has a much
| much better reputation for reliable, working charging
| stations in the US. If people will actually pay more for
| that experience, then sure, Tesla can charge more than a
| competing charging company. But they should be required
| to charge the same amount regardless of vehicle.
|
| The only exception to that, I think, is that they should
| be able to charge differently based on charging speed,
| which _is_ related to the type of vehicl. All gas cars
| will fill up at more or less the same rate, but with EVs
| it depends on the battery technology and the car 's
| electrical system. Taking up space at a charging station
| for a longer amount of time to consume the same amount of
| energy is a cost to the operator (and an annoyance for
| anyone waiting in line), and it seems reasonable to
| charge for that. So I think it would be fair to charge
| $X/kWh + $Y/min.
| JanSolo wrote:
| > I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla
| in the long run.
|
| They're expanding their customer-base by maybe 2x or more.
| Those new customers will be be giving recurring payments to
| Tesla. For vehicles that Tesla didn't build. How is that not
| favourable?
| wlesieutre wrote:
| The downside is that when people are considering which car to
| buy, Tesla has enjoyed their charging network as a strong
| selling point that other automakers don't have
| aniviacat wrote:
| But they gain the selling point that charging Teslas is
| cheaper.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| How much will owners of other manufacturers' cars pay for
| electricity at the Superchargers, compared to those who
| have Teslas? The article doesn't mention this (or I
| missed it). I'm curious to know what this adds up to over
| the life of a car.
| bluGill wrote:
| Short term it will likely be the same - Telsa has the
| most chargers, but they do not have a monopoly and they
| will be forced to charge the same to all just to compete.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Most places it's not like gas stations where there's 3 on
| the same block and they all have exactly the same price
| all the time, people are going to stop at whatever
| charger is located where they need it and pay whatever
| the price is as long as it's within reason.
| bluGill wrote:
| The is true today. However EVs are becoming more common
| and chargers are being built. In a few years chargers
| will be more common and have to compete on price. Today
| Tesla can get away with charging more to some customers -
| those people will figure it out though and eventually
| they will have enough options that they can go elsewhere.
| It is hard enough to brand gasoline (you can have a brand
| specific additive package most don't but they do exist)
| electrons are even more identical.
| aniviacat wrote:
| Tesla has enough time to get brand recognition for cheap
| charging, even if it gets less relevant over time.
|
| Even when chargers become more common in cities, there
| will always be some places like smaller villages or long
| roads where you only have one option; that option
| possibly being a Tesla charger.
|
| So even if it loses significance, the difference will
| still be there. And maybe it will be sufficient to retain
| Tesla being known for being cheaper long-term (because of
| charging).
|
| Whether that's realistic: I don't know.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Even when chargers become more common in cities, there
| will always be some places like smaller villages or long
| roads where you only have one option; that option
| possibly being a Tesla charger._
|
| Sure, and that's exactly the case for gas stations today,
| and I'm sure the lone gas station on the long stretch of
| road has more pricing power than the one in the middle of
| a city with competition.
|
| And yet gas stations don't charge based on what kind of
| car you drive. Tesla shouldn't be permitted to do so
| either, as this market develops more.
| kelnos wrote:
| A quick search suggests there's around 145,000 gas
| stations. This article mentions Tesla has 17,800
| supercharger stations. I didn't care enough to look up
| the station counts for the other EV charging companies.
| But that Tesla figure is around 12% of the gas station
| total, so let's say the total number of EV charging
| stations is somewhere between 15% and 20% of the gas
| station total.
|
| I could easily see EV charging stations approach the
| level of saturation of gas stations in the next 10 years.
|
| Yes, today people are going to stop wherever there's a
| nearby charging station. But that's going to change, and
| fairly quickly.
| kelnos wrote:
| Something I hope is legislated away in the future. Can
| you imagine if the norm was that you got a different
| price for gas at gas stations depending on who owns the
| gas station and who manufactured your car?
| losvedir wrote:
| Tesla doesn't break out the details, but I think it's
| generally understood among investors that they just break
| even on Supercharger. Their profit comes from their cars, and
| the Supercharger network was a competitive advantage to get
| people to buy the cars.
|
| I think they opened up the Supercharger network to ensure
| that the US didn't establish CCS as the standard and overtake
| Superchargers, such that Teslas have a competitive _dis_
| -advantage, but I don 't think they're particularly thrilled
| to have all these other companies using their chargers.
|
| People seem to think they're raking it in with the
| Superchargers, but distributing electricity is a low margin
| business. Same with gas stations where the money mostly comes
| from the convenience store part of it and such.
| bluGill wrote:
| Gas is lower margin than the other things in a convenience
| store, but they sell enough more gas than anything else
| that much of the money is there. I haven't checked in 10
| years, but at one time I did read the share holders
| information from a convenience store and for that brand it
| was about 1/3 gas, 1/3 tobacco, 1/3 everything else.
| Tobacco is very high margin but very few people buy it. The
| everything is is a nice high margin, and most people buy,
| but they don't buy every trip. Gas is what gets people in
| the doors and often is all people get.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Tesla chargers are CCS. It's just that in the US they use a
| different plug, in Europe Tesla chargers uses CCS-2
| connectors.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > Tesla chargers are CCS.
|
| This is misleading and not entirely true.
|
| Older Tesla chargers did not use CCS to communicate. My
| 2019 Model 3 doesn't support CCS at all. When I plug into
| a Supercharger, it's not using CCS to communicate with
| the charger, it's using Tesla's proprietary CAN bus
| protocol. Teslas made before 2021 need an ECU retrofit to
| support CCS.
| cbhl wrote:
| This goes both ways -- historically the other charging
| networks were J1772 or CCS (with a few CHAdeMO to support
| Nissan Leafs), but now Electrify America, EVgo, etc. have
| been retrofitting or newly installing a mix of CCS and NACS
| cables onto their L3 chargers. This increases the available
| charger footprint for Teslas as well.
| metal_am wrote:
| Where I'm located, Supercharger prices are ~4x business
| electric rates. That's something like $15 profit per
| charge. No idea on infrastructure costs or usage though.
| secabeen wrote:
| Business electric service often has a demand charge in
| addition to the usage rates; superchargers could easily
| incur a lot of cost on that element.
| fiftyfifty wrote:
| Tesla actually had $1.74 billion in revenue from its charging
| network in 2023, Bloomberg estimates that they probably made
| about 10% profits from that or $174 million. They are
| predicting that to grow to $7.4 billion in revenue by 2030. In
| my neck of the woods many of the Tesla superchargers I see are
| empty most of the time, presumably adding 3rd party vehicles is
| a way for Tesla to increase it's profits on their already built
| out network. Of course Tesla is still adding to their network
| but presumably as that investment decreases and the fact that
| they are charging more for non-Tesla vehicles, their profits
| will increase. It seems like it's turned into a nice little
| side business.
|
| https://insideevs.com/news/715644/tesla-supercharger-network...
| phkahler wrote:
| >> I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla
| in the long run.
|
| This will allow the rest of the charging infrastructure to
| become Tesla compatible. That may reduce the load on Teslas
| network, which they only built so their EVs could go cross
| country.
| bluGill wrote:
| More importantly, there are not a lot of chargers. Gas
| stations are on every important intersections, chargers are
| much less common and only rarely in places as convenient.
| (part of this is charging takes longer and there is the
| expectation the people charging are willing to go a little
| farther to find someplace where there is something else to
| do). As electric cars become more common every car
| manufacture needs to be able to say you can get anywhere with
| no worries as there are chargers. Tesla can get you across
| the country but you often have no choice where you stop to
| charge - if you pass a charger at 25% charge you are likely
| to run out a long way from any charger, while if you pass a
| gas station at 25% fuel you can probably pass several dozen
| more before running out and then are close to a station (more
| than walking distance, but an easy hitchhike) There are
| exceptions - I've been in remote areas where gas stations are
| that far miles apart, but they are rare, while that is still
| normal for EV charging outside of cities (and inside of a
| city you are more likely to charge at home and thus not
| care).
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Uhm, that's no longer true. There's a lot of new charging
| stations.
|
| This summer, I drove from MA to Washington DC and every
| other rest stop had chargers; sometimes multiple brands. I
| also drove from MA to Montreal and there were plenty of
| chargers.
|
| Basically, every time I needed to pee there was a charger
| 5-10 minutes ahead of me. Plugged in, went to the bathroom,
| and then I had more than enough charge to go to the next
| bathroom.
| bluGill wrote:
| Depends on where you travel, I travel a lot in the west.
| Gas stations are not as common. I'm glad and not
| surprised to hear denser parts of the us are getting
| reasonable charger density as well.
| bradgessler wrote:
| Tesla bills themselves as an energy company. In theory, they
| could back their charging network with solar and battery
| storage and offer power cheaper/cleaner than competitors.
| peutetre wrote:
| > _I 'd seen some rumors that Tesla has been trying to slow
| down onboarding of other automakers to their charging network_
|
| It's more simple. The delays have been because Musk threw a
| tantrum and fired the whole supercharging team:
|
| https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside...
|
| > _I still struggle to see how this ends up favorable for Tesla
| in the long run_
|
| Standardization gives Teslas more access to more chargers. It
| will also drive up utilization of Tesla's charging network
| because more cars will use more of Tesla's chargers more of the
| time.
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...
|
| Tesla's chargers have been open to all brands for a long time
| in Europe. Here's a Kia charging on a V4 charger with no app
| and no Tesla account just as Nature intended:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s
|
| Tesla is just one charge point operator among many in Europe.
| Tesla's chargers are behind the state of the art. They still
| don't work well for 800 volt cars:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ2KtzMeh8
|
| The Cybertruck is an 800 volt platform and charges faster on
| Electrify America than on Tesla's own chargers:
|
| https://x.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331
|
| EV charging standardization in Europe has driven investment in
| and deployment of charging infrastructure. The US has 193,000
| public AC and DC charge points:
|
| https://www.carscoops.com/2024/09/americas-ev-charging-infra...
|
| Europe has over 900,000:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41466853
| partitioned wrote:
| Most places most chargers are empty.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> Future GM vehicles will come with Tesla's charging port
| natively installed.
|
| This makes me happy. I worked on "standard" charging
| infrastructure for a while and those plugs are fv*king heavy and
| clunky by comparison. Also talked to an old Ford guy I worked
| with years ago who was involved in the standard development
| process - he seems content to "understand" what the politics and
| compromises were to the extent he couldn't look at the thing and
| say "this sucks". Going beyond the physical clunkiness: There is
| no reason to have a powerline PHY in there. None. It's stupid and
| costs extra and isn't even used on the high power conductors.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| This just feels like VHS vs. Betamax. VHS won because it was
| the better format, but Betamax fans took a value out of context
| and kept whining about the loss for years.
|
| (VHS was better. Not only was it cheaper, Betamax's smaller
| cassette meant that feature length movies used a slower tape
| speed than VHS, negating claims of a better picture.)
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Must resist... nitpicking... no I can't. Betamax originally
| didn't sell tapes which could record more than 1 hour. So
| people couldn't tape movies onto a single tape, but had to
| use 2 tapes.
|
| What I _really_ came to say is that the current reality is
| worse. In this analogy, not only did BetaMax win, neither
| BetaMax nor VHS came to Europe, but instead Philips 2000 won
| there. (US Teslas don 't fast-charge in Europe.)
| recursive wrote:
| I still haven't received my free Ford adapter. Delivery date
| keeps getting pushed back due to "supplier" issues. I'm pretty
| sure the supplier is Tesla, and they're slow-rolling it for some
| reason.
| placatedmayhem wrote:
| While I have no information here, I'd bet/conspiracy theorize
| that Tesla is looking to maintain exclusivity/low-ish
| congestion of its Supercharger sites for as long as possible,
| and using its position as a supplier of NACS adapters to do
| that. Demand for and purchasing of Tesla cars has gone down
| considerably[1], and I'd assert that Superchargers, which have
| historically been a positive for Tesla, catching a reputation
| for being "busy" would hurt Tesla even more. There are already
| regularly lines for charging at some of the busier Supercharger
| sites.
|
| [1] https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q1-2024-ev-
| sales/
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Just like how the Hyperloop was a scheme to prevent
| development of trains. Tesla doesn't try to make the best
| product, they just try to hurt the competition.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Supercharger is the best product, and without Tesla we
| wouldn't be half as far as we are with car electrification.
| I don't get the ludicrousness of statements such as yours.
| johns wrote:
| Reserved mine 2/29, received yesterday.
| jes5199 wrote:
| I own a Chevy Bolt, and have no luck actually figuring out how to
| buy this adaptor
| sanj wrote:
| this one?
|
| https://ev-lectron.com/products/lectron-vortex-plug-tesla-su...
| jes5199 wrote:
| no, the GM-branded one that won't void my warrantee
| asynchronous wrote:
| Most of the comments here seem to be suffering from amnesia as to
| why Tesla is even opening their charging network- remember, the
| Feds literally begged them to and paid them money to do so.
|
| As a Tesla owner, I see this as a straight up loss in nearly
| every category. I never have used a third party charger, so even
| if those chargers move to the NACS standard it won't improve my
| life in any way.
|
| I've already had to deal with Rivian or Ford owners taking up
| several stalls at the Superchargers (because they weren't
| designed to fit correctly, and Rivian drivers are incompetent)
| and taking over twice as long to charge as Teslas are able to.
| windexh8er wrote:
| Please... DO NOT BUY A LECTRON ADAPTER mentioned in this article.
| This company is shady and has absolutely horrendous customer
| service, along with products that do not work and are not
| authorized at Tesla Super Chargers.
|
| How do I know? I bought one. The first issue I had was they
| claimed the unit was available to ship when I purchased, but did
| not ship even though they sent me a tracking number that simply
| stated "package hasn't been dropped off at UPS" when looked up.
| When I inquired they said it would be shipping "this week" for 3
| weeks. I had also paid for expedited shipping and the company
| refused to refund this. After collecting screenshots I told them
| I would be reversing the charge through my CC company. That same
| day the product was shipped.
|
| Then I experienced the design issues with the product first hand
| that everyone has now beaten to death on the Internet. Next I
| spent another two weeks trying to get the company to refund my
| money and take back their product. I ended up reversing the
| charge and only after I did that did they issue me an RMA to send
| the unit back, because now they wanted it back since my CC
| company reviewed all of my screenshots of their claims and
| reversed the charge.
|
| Do not waste your time with Lectron!
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-09-18 23:01 UTC)