[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Is a Masters in CS/Engineering worth it for ...
___________________________________________________________________
Ask HN: Is a Masters in CS/Engineering worth it for a mid-career
PM?
I'm a PM & designer in his late 30s who is itching to get into deep
tech (BCI, AI, aerospace, medtech, etc). I have no background in
engineering and am considering pursuing a masters either in CS or
similar. Has anyone here done this mid-career? Was it worth it?
Author : deeptechdreamer
Score : 67 points
Date : 2024-09-12 20:41 UTC (5 days ago)
| muratsu wrote:
| If you're looking for a technical job, the easier path would be
| to find a PM/Designer job at one of your target companies and try
| switching to a dev role within the company. When you apply as a
| junior developer, your previous work experience will not be
| considered relevant. You'll be competing with other junior
| developers (who also likely don't have any relevant work
| experience) and it's much harder to differentiate yourself.
| Whereas if you want to switch roles inside a company, people who
| are familiar with your skills are likely to take a bet on you (if
| you have a good track record).
|
| On the other hand, the masters program will introduce you to a
| new network of people, and working towards a goal with a cohort
| is much more motivating than learning by yourself.
| roninorder wrote:
| I agree with your suggestion with one caveat: having a Master's
| degree when switching to a dev role would be very beneficial.
| Both in terms of how it looks on paper and in terms of
| competency.
| batch12 wrote:
| A few questions to think about-
|
| What are you wanting to do with the degree?
|
| What are the requirements for the roles you're interested in?
|
| Does the masters get you there or will you need to get some other
| experience along the way?
|
| Do you know someone in the field who can point you to where you
| want to be and maybe skip some of the issues they had?
|
| Are you willing to start as a junior technologist and work your
| way up again?
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| The cheaper option:
|
| - Learn python by watching the freecodecamp videos on YouTube.
|
| - Learn AI stuff (enough to build some really useful shit) by
| watching the FastAI course on YouTube.
|
| Don't worry about not having any good ideas on what to build when
| you start out. Once you start taking the FastAI class, the
| lecturer point out many good ideas, which lead to your own ideas.
|
| And you know, practice, build some small stuff, build some bigger
| stuff, talk about it, write about it, network, etc.
| ajb wrote:
| You don't quite say, but I get the impression you want to keep
| working as a PM, not a software engineer, but be able to do so in
| these areas?
|
| I think a masters that gave you expertise in the subject area be
| better than a generic CS masters. These are quite different
| areas. For medtech (and possibly BCI) medical compliance
| qualifications might open more doors than CS. For AI a masters in
| CS focusing on AI would presumably be a lot of use. I have no
| idea about aerospace but its seems likely that a different degree
| would be better than CS.
|
| If instead you want to become a software engineer, then by all
| means do a CS degree, perhaps one which allows you to focus on
| the deep tech domain that interests you most.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Its only value is to get foreigners a H-1B. Otherwise it's
| useless. Masters in CS won't help. Just go read the course
| content yourself.
| swatcoder wrote:
| Consider that taking 5-10 graduate courses and writing a master's
| level thesis or project will generally take all of your free time
| and a bunch of your savings over the course of two or more years.
| (I sure hope you're not thinking to take on debt for this!)
|
| And while you'll absolutely learn some things and find yourself
| excited about some ideas in those couple years, you will forget
| _almost_ all of the stuff your learned within a few years of
| graduating because you won 't be continuing to get your hands
| dirty and won't be building on the knowledge. Technical knowledge
| does not "stick" if you don't use it.
|
| If you're a hungry learner and have the free time and money, you
| can go back to school for whatever you want. This sounds adjacent
| to your work, at least, so that's something. But remember that
| formal education is only the first and smallest step in learning
| a technical discipline, and it sounds like you want to continue
| PM'ing rather than transition to a technical IC, so you won't be
| continuing on the later steps.
|
| If you're just trying to be the best technical PM you can be in
| your industry, there are almost certainly _far_ more time
| /cost/stress-efficient ways to do so.
| deeptechdreamer wrote:
| Yes, I want to be a PM with deep technical understanding. What
| are the other more efficient paths?
| whatshisface wrote:
| A lot of people who are switching to SWE from other areas are
| advised to write a few personal projects.
| swatcoder wrote:
| Some options:
|
| * Depending on your industry and its maturity, there may be
| courework or certification tracks designed for managers, etc
| (still expensive, but better focused)
|
| * Regularly attend technical conferences in your industry.
| Sit for sessions and presentations on those deeper topics,
| work hard to understand them, make a point to follow up on
| what you're exposed to, make connections with people who can
| amplify your knowledge and keep you inspired, etc (broadly
| cheaper, and ongoing)
|
| * _Audit_ classes and seminars. Generally, you do not need to
| be enrolled in a degree program to attend classes and learn
| things. But you do often need to make a personal connection
| with whoever is leading it and get their permission. You may
| sometimes need to lay fees. (cheap, ongoing, deep; maybe not
| convenient if you 're not near a suitable university)
|
| * saturate yourself in the technical meetup circles in your
| area and do your best to catch up and keep up. As with
| conference, find friendly people who can help you learn and
| keep you inspired (cheap, ongoing, maybe not convenient)
|
| * take ad hoc online classes. (cheaper, ongoing, available
| anywhere)
|
| * do what other auto-didacts do: just immerse yourself. Buy
| books that look like they'd be fascinating, and if they end
| up over your head, figure out what other book or video or
| class might help remedy that, recusring until you find the
| starting point you need. (cheap, ongoing, limitless)
|
| * etc
|
| Technical degree programs are generally structured and priced
| for people who are pursuing the field professionally, but
| they are only a tiny fraction of the learning opportunities
| that are out there.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah I think there's a lot you can do that doesn't involve
| the cost and rigidity of a degree program unless there's
| some reason to do so. And the company is willing to cover
| it for whatever reason.
|
| ADDED: I did go back to school for an MBA and used it to
| somewhat change careers. But degrees from good schools were
| less expensive at the time, I had sort of planned to do so,
| the degree was more of a gate for certain roles, I enjoyed
| it, and as I say it was a good way to transition into the
| computer industry which might otherwise have been hard.
| jaaron wrote:
| Everything swatcoder suggested in his comment is good. I just
| want to add/emphasize:
|
| If you don't actively stay up with the tech, your
| understanding will atrophy. Consequently, because you intend
| to remain a PM, your tech will never be as strong as someone
| who is dedicated to it and you need to be okay with that.
|
| Another classic example for this are engineering managers:
| people management (like project/product management) is its
| own discipline with a deep set of skills, research, training,
| etc. To become a good EM means you _will_ sacrifice some of
| your technical edge. That "deep technical understanding" that
| good EM's maintain is built on a foundation of years as a
| practitioner and, even then, requires continual investment.
|
| I don't mean to discourage you, I just want to ensure you
| have realistic expectations.
|
| Given all that and given your goals, I think you should just
| ask yourself a question only you can answer: how do you best
| learn?
|
| If that's in the classroom, then go get that masters (online
| or in person). If that's with hands on projects, then set
| aside time for tinkering and get going. Likewise with books,
| videos, meet-ups, etc. You know what motivates you and what
| techniques keep you focused (because you'll need that
| discipline).
|
| Regardless, I wish you luck and enjoy the journey!
| jen729w wrote:
| > If you don't actively stay up with the tech, your
| understanding will atrophy
|
| Ex-tech turned PM here. This is totally accurate. But as
| you say, don't be discouraged. When I was a tech, if my PM
| had taken the time to learn _anything_ I would have been
| ecstatic.
|
| My advice: learn at home. Set up some VMs and watch some
| YouTube. Install some things. Whatever field you're in,
| install it. Play with it. Honestly that'll put you well
| above your peers.
|
| Other excellent advice in this thread re: going to meetups,
| conferences etc. Just absorb stuff. It takes a while but
| it'll sink in.
|
| I mean, just knowing what half the terms mean is half the
| battle...
| germinalphrase wrote:
| " people management (like project/product management) is
| its own discipline with a deep set of skills, research,
| training, etc."
|
| What reading or other recommendations do you have here?
| moandcompany wrote:
| Software Engineering in practice versus the curriculum in
| most Computer Science programs, undergraduate or graduate
| level tend to be very different.
|
| If you want to become more effective as a PM through sharing
| a technical understanding, it would probably be better to
| gain first-hand experience of what teams are practicing --
| That would provide a better understanding and empathy for
| what they have to deal with.
| alice-i-cecile wrote:
| Contribute to open source! This is incredibly effective:
| you're thrown in the deep end and surrounded by skilled
| mentors. If you're respectful of the needs of the team, your
| project management skills will be super valuable for the
| project as well.
| GMoromisato wrote:
| One other suggestion: ask SWEs on your team to explain
| specific issues you're discussing in technical terms.
| Engineers love to explain things, and as long as you're not
| interrupting their flow or wasting time in a meeting, I think
| you could learn a ton of relevant, technical areas.
|
| This is no substitute for broader knowledge on core
| principles, but they will reinforce each other.
| datavirtue wrote:
| YouTube, and build your ideas. Preferably before finding out
| how it has already been solved.
|
| Early on I just read books and built distributed systems and
| database engines from scratch.
|
| These days I have been able to drink from the firehose on
| YouTube for a variety of subjects. Physics, chemistry,
| business finance, technical analysis (stocks), CAM, food
| production, and plenty more. I'm literally blown away at how
| much more efficient it is than trudging through college. If
| you put in the work you can go deep and gain skills very
| quickly.
| ggorlen wrote:
| > Consider that taking 5-10 graduate courses and writing a
| master's level thesis or project will generally take all of
| your free time and a bunch of your savings over the course of
| two or more years. (I sure hope you're not thinking to take on
| debt for this!)
|
| OMSCS graduate. The program certainly ate up most of my free
| time for 2.5 years, but on the other hand, the whole degree was
| about $8k for me and required no thesis or capstone project--
| just grinding through 10 classes worth of assignments and
| exams. Also, it was 100% online, so that flexibility frees up
| time.
|
| Theoretically, if you do 1-2 easy-ish classes per semester, you
| can minimize the free time impact. But I was less interested in
| the credential and more interested in the learning experience,
| so I took difficult classes and worked as a TA.
|
| Caveat: I graduated in 2021 so things may have changed since
| then.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| It's the same now. You can still take two hard/challenging
| courses together if you plan it right, though. Some courses
| release all the projects at the start of the semester so
| they're more self-paced, pair that with courses on a more
| rigid schedule that release one project at a time. If you
| stay ahead in the one class, then it's not much different
| than taking one at a time.
| ggorlen wrote:
| Good to know. https://www.omscentral.com/ and talking to
| other students helped a great deal with planning.
|
| Two difficult classes I took together were Embedded Systems
| Optimization and Compilers, both taught by the same
| instructor and with similar concepts, so working on one
| helped solidify concepts in the other.
|
| On the other hand, I took Distributed Computing during its
| first offering alongside Graduate Algorithms and was super
| overwhelmed.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Wow, I thought I was masochistic. What possessed you to
| take DC and GA (two of the hardest classes) together?
|
| I took DC alone and found it manageable if you weren't a
| perfectionist. Compilers was the most difficult thing
| I've ever done, though that was mostly due to my own poor
| time management during phase 3 (generating the
| intermediate representation). I didn't complete phase 3,
| so most of my time during phase 4 (emitting MIPS assembly
| + implementing three register allocation algorithms +
| optimizations) was catching up.
|
| Also, as a note, the very difficult classes like
| distributed computing and compilers are completely
| optional (though well worth it IMO). The only very
| difficult class that's required is graduate algorithms.
|
| For those not familiar with OMSCS, there are some class
| ratings here: https://www.omscentral.com/
| ggorlen wrote:
| It was the first online cohort of DC so I didn't realize
| how intensely difficult it'd be. I'd taken GIOS with Ada
| which was gentle, so I figured DC wouldn't be
| significantly harder.
|
| It was a good life experience even though I wound up
| sacrificing my 4.0 by a few grade points. In hindsight,
| had I realized how steep the curve would be for DC, I'd
| have pushed a bit harder to squeeze out a few more test
| cases, but I was pretty mentally defeated at the time and
| felt like I'd exhausted all of the ideas I had on the
| projects multiple times over.
|
| I found DC more difficult than compilers by a wide margin
| because of the nondeterminism, debugging difficulty and
| trying to figure out what the test harness was even
| doing. Compilers involved writing more lines of code, but
| it was manageable, synchronous greenfield application
| design.
| snake42 wrote:
| You don't have to take GA anymore if you choose the new
| specialization.
|
| https://omscs.gatech.edu/specialization-human-computer-
| inter...
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Neither HCI nor Interactive Intelligence require GA. In
| II it's one of two courses courses you get to choose
| between. I think a lot of people select those two
| specializations just to avoid it. II is also close to the
| ML specialization, so people who have trouble with or
| want to skip GA can move to it pretty easily.
| fuzztester wrote:
| >OMSCS.
|
| From the Georgia Tech online course?
| fuzztester wrote:
| I googled and answered my own question:
|
| https://omscs.gatech.edu/
| chubot wrote:
| Hm what's your evaluation of the program then? What did you
| learn, and did you learn what you wanted to learn?
| __loam wrote:
| I graduated this year. Great program at an incredible
| price, I think it was less than $7k for me after they
| reduced the fee. I didn't have a CS undergrad (Other stem)
| but was working as a software engineer and wanted to bulk
| up on basic knowledge with the systems track. Learned a lot
| of what I wanted and got sight on some weak areas. Would
| highly recommend the program. Hardest part was that it's
| actually very rigorous if you're going for As.
| whiterknight wrote:
| > you will forget almost all of the stuff your learned
|
| Speak for yourself.
|
| You are also developing a meta skill of being able to read
| technical material, and a fluency with basic concepts
| (algorithms, signals, etc)
|
| Also sometimes learning something isn't knowing exactly how to
| do it on the spot, but knowing it's the right thing to look up
| when you need it.
| wildzzz wrote:
| Can you define "designer"? That means so many things in different
| fields. Like are you a web designer who knows stuff like React? A
| mechanical designer that would have a mechanical engineering
| background? Or a graphic designer thats more like an artist than
| an engineer?
|
| Seeing that you're in the medical field, I'd say look towards
| finding a job with your relevant work experience at a company
| that overlaps medical with the kind of technology you're
| interested in (using AI to analyze patient records for example).
| From there, you can use whatever experience you have gained on
| your own (I'm assuming you've been doing little code projects at
| home) to sidestep into roles at that new company that better
| align with what you want. Then, use the company's tuition
| assistance to get your CS masters as it directly aligns with the
| work you'd be doing. Since you've been a PM and also have
| whatever software experience you've gained so far plus the 2
| years bump from the masters, you can easily slide into a senior
| or lead role. You can use your PM skills while also getting your
| hands dirty.
|
| Of course you could just go get your CS masters right now and
| then start looking at software engineer jobs with 2 years
| experience (assuming no prior engineering experience) but I'm
| guessing that could be a big pay cut for you and you'd be 40
| years old competing with 22 year olds fresh out of college
| willing to work for nothing. Not the best idea if you've got a
| family to provide for.
|
| Also, I hear you. You're having midlife crisis because you're
| afraid you'll be stuck in a job you don't like for the second
| half of your career. Don't worry. Take it slow but move
| decisively. Find employers that overlap your experience with your
| interests and navigate with purpose. Don't rush to get a master's
| that will do little to get you where you want. Worry about that
| once you've got your foot in the door.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Take a look at the OMSCS. Great degree, very cheap, and you can
| do it while you work.
|
| https://omscs.gatech.edu/
|
| Happy to chat about my experience with the program, feel free to
| email me: hn@sjer.red
| vavooom wrote:
| Can attest to the program being worth it!
| jsqu99 wrote:
| I'm in my 4th week of my first class. I'm 54. I have a CS
| undergrad from 1996. I too caught the ML bug and...this first
| class is kicking my butt but I'm LOVING the experience. Quality
| education, very inexpensive, and I can quit any time. I'm doing
| it for the love of learning and don't need to do it. It takes
| $100 to apply. Just go for it and try a class. I will warn you
| without a tech background this particular program will be tough
| I think. I'm struggling catching up w/ Math
| alwa wrote:
| Congratulations on getting back into it! What style of class
| or course of study did you choose? $100 seems like an
| accessible price point.
| musicale wrote:
| This looks like a winner to me as well. Personally I find
| university courses to be motivating, and unlike other programs
| this doesn't seem to be designed to rip you off or put you in
| debt. You learn the same good material as on-campus students,
| and you get an MS out of it from a good engineering school. The
| credential is meaningful because it requires completion of
| courses that are difficult but also designed to teach you the
| material.
|
| If you have no engineering background, I expect you'd need to
| spend time doing prerequisite/undergrad courses beforehand.
| musicale wrote:
| The down side is that: it takes time and money, and nobody
| will give you a raise because you have an MSCS (though maybe
| it could help with changing jobs). But the actual knowledge
| and skills are useful if you can put them to use, and you may
| also find the courses to be satisfying in themselves.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| The entire OMSCS program costs about $6000-$7000, depending
| on if you take one or two classes per semester.
|
| That's not free, but it is an undeniably great value for
| the money.
| snake42 wrote:
| At my workplace, its a hard requirement for advancement to
| get a MS/PhD. Comes with an automatic raise too.
| dangjc wrote:
| We have a product analytics team where people have transitioned
| from being fully PM focused to being deeply data analysis
| oriented. It starts with using code-lite tools like Tableau and
| SQL queries then easily opens up into running data transform jobs
| with Python scheduled on a cluster. It would probably be easier
| and more financially remunerative to be at a company where you
| provide value in a product role, and continue providing that
| value as you slowly transition to a more engineering role.
| donatj wrote:
| For what it's worth, I don't think not having a masters degree
| would be an impediment to job progression, but it sounds like you
| might want one and are just looking for a reason.
| wileydragonfly wrote:
| Get an MBA
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| Careful about aging out. At your age you have about 10 years
| before age discrimination will hit you hard at the individual
| contributor level if you haven't moved into management. Maybe a
| dual master program to obtain the MS in computer science and an
| MBA simultaneously? That way you show deep knowledge of business
| and the technology.
| anon7725 wrote:
| There are plenty of us in our late 40's and above who work as
| IC engineers.
| el_benhameen wrote:
| I worry about this a fair amount and I appreciate hearing the
| success stories
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| I guess one of the points is - when did they start?
| vitaflo wrote:
| IMO aging out only really happens when you rest on your
| laurels and let your skill set lapse. Also happens at
| younger ages but we just call that being PIP'd. All my dev
| friends and I are mid 50s and doing fine not being in
| management.
| bfung wrote:
| There's an extra qualifier here, where are there Software
| Engineers past 40s _that started in their 30s_. I 'd don't
| see many, if at all, that are basically at entry level and
| end up doing PM/TPM work (not that it's not important, but
| not worth degree for!)
| jsqu99 wrote:
| Serious question...where is this happening? I've been a job-
| hopper all my life. I'm 54, and i've never felt i was being
| discriminated against. I keep hearing about agism...is it more
| in SV? I'm in south carolina
| sumtechguy wrote:
| They just dont call back. Two spaces in your sentences? Your
| first job in the 90s? etc etc. Easy to filter you and you
| would never know it.
| ahewett wrote:
| No. I would give the same advice to an 18 year old. I can't speak
| for aerospace, but can expertly speak on BCI, medtech and AI. And
| bank security.
|
| What I would honestly recommend doing is a bootcamp for full
| stack, or even just backend or frontend, or native, React Native,
| etc. Start there. You must learn the basics of code first. Not
| only that, but you will need to know how a non-academic team
| works. Github for starters. Also if anyone ever tells you that
| "elegant" code in one line is better than "readable" code in 10
| lines, punch them for me. That is not how reality works in the
| workplace. Clear variable names. Clear function names. An
| understandable architecture for what is trying to be
| accomplished. These are the most important things, not reducing a
| perfectly understandable algorithm to something akin to calculus.
|
| I actually made some of the first BCIs for the PC a long time
| ago, but already was a certified architect in C#, Microsoft, etc.
| These days you want to go for Node/JS or Go or Java, etc. Once
| you learn one language it is simple to learn another,
| particularly C-based languages (JS/TypeScript/C#/Java/ObjC/Swift
| and so on - notably they use brackets instead of indents or words
| to denote functions and objects.
|
| I used to do AI work, but mainly medtech these days like digital
| therapeutics, and paradoxically I also do bank security (startup
| I was working with got bought by a bank, thus the disparity
| between the two. hey, you make friends along the way, help them
| out, and occasionally a hustle becomes your job)
|
| I highly recommended becoming intimately aquatinted with
| databases, both relational and otherwise. And learn how to
| optimize them. You WILL have to work with a relational database
| at some point and thus you will need to learn SQL, indexing, etc.
|
| Along the journey of my life, I've become quite the physicist and
| like to think I have a deeper understanding of math than most
| people. The only benefit I see to a degree is you might learn
| some of that. Physics, signal processing (from an EEG for
| example), and so on, are unavoidable. HOWEVER, there are a TON of
| libraries that will do all of that for you, and along the way you
| will learn it. I highly doubt anyone writes their own Fast
| Fourier Transform (FFT) these days, but to use it you have to
| understand how it works, what it's giving you, and what it's not,
| in order to avoid egregious mistakes. I've had to correct many
| people on what a Fourier transform actually does, many of them
| who have related doctorates. There are some truly stupid highly
| credentialed people in the world. IMO even the wikipedia article
| on it has some serious mistakes.
|
| Honestly? Everything you need to know you can learn yourself
| online very cheaply through online courses. Get yourself a mentor
| or two. People LOVE teaching others. A bootcamp, however, will
| land you your first job.
|
| As far as getting a job, when it comes to programming or
| engineering, "the proof is in the pudding". I've interviewed
| hundreds of programmers. At first I read all about their
| achievements at MIT and all of what they are experts in. But, in
| the end, EVERY INTERVIEW will consist of a live coding session.
| 90% of the people I interviewed could not write a solution to
| total softball questions like, "Alphabetize this text" or "Parse
| this JSON". I would even let them google and they still couldn't
| do it. I've had people right out of bootcamp that were better
| coders than the most highly credentialed CS graduates.
|
| Which brings me to my final notes: 1) Live code as much as
| possible. Learn to love it. I failed the crap out of my first
| live coding interview, but faced my fear and now I'm the only one
| in the bank department I'm in that live codes. As I'm sure you
| can imagine, product and design LOVE IT. 2) FORGET ABOUT LEETCODE
| or any other such crap. If I was ever given a leetcode question
| in an interview I would tell them point blank that people just
| memorize the answers to these, they are not applicable to real-
| life application, and then I would walk out because that company
| is clearly not serious. 3) Whiteboard interviews are also going
| to happen. Super easy. Flow chart with how the frontend connects
| to the backend, branching enough into each until they know you
| know what you're talking about. 4) Don't forget the old school!
| If someone asks you what "PUT" means in a request and you don't
| know the answer, that's pretty embarrassing. Learn about basic
| networking, from old to new. 5) LEARN DEFENSIVE CODING: This will
| give you a leg up because I've never met a programmer who knew it
| who hadn't also been a hacker at some point in their life.
| Basically what this means is how to reduce vulnerabilities, but
| also how to straight up trick would-be hackers. For example,
| error messages. If you have an error message that says "License
| invalid", it will be ludicrously easy to find that string and
| thus where the license code is likely to be. Instead, screw with
| them. Say your program detects that a user has hacked into your
| app, if you simply cause a crash or exit that just gives them an
| easy way to find and remove the problem. Instead, perhaps there
| is a commonly used number in your app. Change it so they get
| weird data. Or maybe division of numbers is needed at some point.
| Change the divisor to 0 to cause a random crash. Some defensive
| coders will simply use a timer, set it to a random value, and
| then cause a crash in some way. Whatever you decide to do, use
| multiple defensive techniques, and always always screw with the
| hacker so they have no easy way to determine where to look to
| bypass your protections.
|
| -------
|
| Ok so I've overwhelmed you and you may be rethinking your
| decision. Don't. Jump right in! Learn as you go, keeping the
| above advice in mind, and you will succeed. Take a few courses on
| the basics of the actual reality of working in the private
| sector, so you know the basics of github, but make no mistake:
| show me a coder that says he doesn't google at least once a week,
| I'll show you a damn liar.
|
| As far as aerospace, I've no clue. I have friends at NASA who are
| bored out of their minds, but the are all credentialed. Even so,
| the exactly University you go to barely matters, as far as I can
| see. Again, coding and the understanding of fundamental concepts
| is something that can and will be tested during an interview, and
| maybe even before the interview with a take-home project or a
| general phone call.
|
| Above all, have confidence in yourself, and walk out of an
| interview that is stupid or has a bad culture. EVERYONE has
| imposter syndrome. Make THEM court you. I've straight up never
| gotten a job I wrote a cover letter for. Usually out of some
| company that is truly interested calls YOU. They can see your
| resume on LinkedIn like everyone else. Which reminds me, up your
| LinkedIn game big time. Yeah yeah everyone hates it but you start
| writing things, people invite you on podcasts, the snowball
| starts rolling.
|
| Well that's all I've got. I hope it helps!
|
| Good luck!
| purple-leafy wrote:
| I am an Electrical Engineer who transitioned into Software
| Engineering at the start of my career. I'm also under 30.
|
| For context, I failed most of my Computer Science papers first go
| (undiagnosed ADHD) and I absolutely Hated (with a capital H),
| Software at uni.
|
| Once I graduated though I picked up Python and discovered I
| actually LOVE programming and computers - the way uni was taught
| and my immaturity really put me off initially.
|
| I'm successful as a Software Engineer, have sold my own Software,
| have built an AI app recently, but I have had some knowledge
| gaps.
|
| I entered Harvards CS50 courses and loved them! You could try
| that instead of a masters? One can basically finish a full course
| in 2 weeks (on top of work and life)
|
| I'd highly recommend starting there, rather than the mountain
| that is a Masters.
|
| But if you are blasting through the courses, then consider a
| Masters at that point?
|
| I have also been considering a Masters, but you have to ask
| yourself why?
|
| - For the knowledge gained?
|
| - For the cred?
|
| - For employment opportunities?
|
| I'd say you can get all of that with a typical software career if
| you also study on your own time outside of work.
|
| But if you absolutely can't shake the thought of doing a Masters,
| how about doing it part time so you can still have healthy
| finances?
|
| Best of luck!
| jwrallie wrote:
| If you want to justify it, just frame it as a personal goal and
| do it. That way you don't have to measure any benefit from your
| career perspective, you did it because you wanted to grow as a
| person, and any benefits are a side effect.
|
| Most people always think you can take classes online, work in
| side projects and get the same benefits. They are all right,
| except enrolling in a program will help you stick to it, and that
| is the whole point.
| alienchow wrote:
| To be honest not really. For mid career pivots, your work on your
| resume counts more than a degree. You'd see more success
| transitioning organically by helping out with simple technical
| projects on the team and filling knowledge gaps with YouTube.
| Formal courses fill you with information that gets forgotten
| without practical application.
|
| PMs with engineering knowledge are actually very valuable. I love
| cross-functional team members, since they always provide new
| perspectives. So I wouldn't call it a pivot either, more like a
| career boost. You'd need to have a supportive engineering team
| who'd be willing to let you get your hands dirty though, that'd
| be your bigger challenge.
| geertj wrote:
| I went through a similar change from PM(-T in my case) to SDE,
| and I can +1 the parent. The best way to make a mid career
| change is to find a job where the old and new role can overlap,
| which I how I did it as well. If you're currently working as a
| PM, try to get an engineering role for the same product. The
| engineering part will be new, but you will be able to leverage
| your domain expertise.
|
| I will caution you that SDE is a job family that requires a ton
| of practitioner experience, especially at the higher job levels
| (and you likely don't want to transition to a lower level). The
| only way I was able to make this change was because I have a
| relevant college degree and because I started out my career as
| an SDE and always kept up to date. And even with that, it took
| me 2.5 years to make the job change official.
|
| Still, don't let that caution scare you, if you really want the
| change and you want it for the right reasons. SDE is probably
| the easiest of the STEM disciplines to get into without a
| format education in the field.
|
| And finally, another big +1 on the parent's comment about PM-T
| with technical experience being super valuable.
| david38 wrote:
| No, not worth it
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm not sure that, absent some serious credentialism, getting a
| degree makes a lot of sense past some point. Certifications,
| attending conferences, etc, may well and they're a lot cheaper,
| companies will probably be happy to pay for them, and they are
| probably mostly not time out of your pocket.
|
| If a company wants to pay for an executive MBA program or
| something along those lines, sure why not?, but certainly
| wouldn't do it on my own.
| tptacek wrote:
| 29 years into my career. I have 1 semester of undergrad at UIC.
| Hasn't mattered a bit. The opportunity cost of a midcareer
| masters is high. If you're not already in tech, the degree might
| serve as a forcing function and do some matchmaking for entry-
| level jobs, but my guess is you could have hustled and gotten
| those same opportunities without it.
|
| I have two kids who occasionally think about how they'd pivot
| from their undergrad degrees into tech work (probably after
| seeing me waking at at 11AM and working all day in my pajamas). I
| would steer them away from an MSCS.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| The advice in here is broadly "no", but I think that is because
| you specifically called out CS. I think you should probably
| narrow that list of fields a bit more, because for some fields
| you would have no choice -- eg, if you wanted to do GNC (guidance
| navigation and control) in aerospace I think you'd _have_ to go
| back to school, because so much of the fundamental math is not
| something you could learn on-the-job.
| erichmond wrote:
| If you want to learn for the joy of learning: yes
|
| If you want to get a job at a competitive company / make a career
| change: no
| 1jreuben1 wrote:
| Learning is always worth it, but you dont need to pay for a 2nd
| certification for that. Disclaimer - I did an MSc in
| Bioinformatics 20 years ago. I've been working in the software
| industry for 30 years. I contemplated doing a PhD, but up until
| now, there has just been multiple firehoses of free information
| online to absorb (plus many good books).
| senjindarashiva wrote:
| I am assuming your in a country where you have to pay for
| university courses? If not I've personally found that it's an
| interesting and worthwhile complement to development work.
| Working as a developer and taking some courses in areas where I
| feel that theoretical knowledge is beneficial while slowly
| working towards a masters. From a career standpoint I don't think
| the degree while help that much however the deeper knowledge
| might. But again this is under the assumption that the education
| is free.
| austin-cheney wrote:
| A masters degree is excellent for gaining opportunities doing
| more interesting work, but otherwise is an extremely expensive
| way to enter tech.
|
| I am a mid-40s developer without a masters, but have a former
| military and cyber defense background. Most of my programming
| experience is in JavaScript, which is super low barrier to entry
| and generally stacked with beginners and beginner experts that
| never get past entry level capabilities. At this point in my
| career, in this line of work in JavaScript, I have to make hard
| choices:
|
| 1. Make good money working with people that cannot really program
| but nonetheless consider themselves engineers with hyper
| insecurity because they are reliant upon a massive tech stack
|
| 2. Make less money working with more mature people doing
| different work
|
| With that as my options I have to make some hard decisions about
| if I even want to advance
| badpun wrote:
| 99% chance you're just bored in your career. You'll probably be
| as bored in your new career, as most of work in any field is just
| a boring grind. It's best to alleviate boredom without severely
| compromising one's earning potential.
| gsch1 wrote:
| If you can secure a scholarship, I would definitely recommend
| going for it. You'll gain a lot of knowledge and earn respect
| with a master's degree. Whether it leads to something more
| depends on how you use your degree and the opportunities you
| create for yourself.
| brudgers wrote:
| In a person's late 30's job prospects for professional jobs are
| primarily a function of the person's professional network. If you
| get a degree in CS, you will be one among many fresh CS grads.
| What will stand out is your age and work history. These will
| raise a natural and reasonable question "Why hasn't this person
| been hired by someone who has seen their work or worked with
| them?"
|
| For someone whose job is going through 1000 cold call resumes a
| day, "No" has a low bar because the shortlist is only a small
| fraction of the resumes. It's not impossible. But by your late
| 30's "potential" is not a saleable asset.
|
| Go to school to learn something you are directly interested in.
| If you want a job in BCI, Ai, aerospace, etc. apply for jobs in
| BCI, Ai, aerospace, etc. Good luck.
| langcss wrote:
| For clarity: do you want to be a software engineer, platform
| engineer, data scientist, ML expert or something else?
| freedomben wrote:
| I pivoted from hardware to software by getting a CS degree. I
| would only recommend doing it if the jobs you want _require_ a CS
| degree. Even then, I would probably look around and find a
| company who doesn 't require a CS degree, as the companies that
| do are becoming rarer and rarer. Rather than going back to
| school, I would use your current foot-in-the-door to try and get
| more involved in the technical side of things. There's usually at
| least one dev who loves to explain things in as excruciating
| detail as you want, though definitely let him know you're asking
| because you want to learn, not because you want to manage.
|
| I'm sure that many people will disagree with this, but I also
| don't think there's a ton of value in an MSCS unless you have a
| BSCS or similar technical undergrad, or unless you study/prepare
| your ass off learning the fundamentals before starting grad
| school. A CS degree certainly isn't required to be a great
| engineer, but most of the great engineers I've worked with did
| have one. The underpinnings provided by a good BSCS program will
| make you much better at the design side of software.
|
| If you want to do the prep work, between MIT and other online
| courses it's all out there for you. You can also audit great
| courses for cheap at most any school you choose. Some of the most
| helpful classes are Algorithms, Data Structures, Operating
| Systems (yes! knowing what the OS is doing underneath you is
| important for writing performant and reliable code), and Computer
| Security (you should at least be writing a basic buffer overflow
| exploit in this class, such as the classic "defuse the bomb"
| assignment).
|
| So to summarize, IIWM, I would try to find opportunities in your
| current role to get deeper into the technical, then practice
| practice practice on your own. Build a non-trivial app that does
| something you need. Open source it and do a Show HN, and you'll
| get a ton of feedback, some of which will be extremely helpful
| for you. Also show it to your colleagues and ask for feedback.
| Then look for jobs that don't require a degree. You could
| reasonably be getting an engineering job in 12 to 24 months. If
| you really want to go for the MSCS, make sure to thoroughly
| prepare yourself with undergrad-level work. The MSCS will (or
| should at least) expect you to already have a base knowledge in
| algorithms, data structures, and other CS-related things, and
| while most people can get through the program without this, they
| will get far, far less out of it than they could have.
| robgibbons wrote:
| Meta comment, but didn't this get posted 4 days ago? Why is it
| showing as posted today with comments that I definitely saw
| before? This has triggered my deja vu.
| ljbryf wrote:
| I transitioned to SWE later in life, I did a postbac CS crash
| course that got me automatic entry into the CS masters program at
| the same school. I did two terms in the MS program and then got a
| full time SWE job after an internship. Some lessons
| learned/logistics:
|
| * I did pre reqs as cheaply as possible while working. I went to
| school full time after, the cost benefit was better for me
| because of the expected income jump. Either way, I worked really
| hard in school, keeping a full time job wouldn't have been
| possible for me with a full load.
|
| * If you do a CS program, allow the time to really enjoy the
| material. It will move fast. If you don't enjoy a class, or a
| prof, find something better if at all possible.
|
| * A MS degree has so far not been necessary (I didn't finish the
| degree), but a significant amount of CS coursework plus an
| unrelated BA has absolutely been necessary for my SWE jobs (I
| work as a backend/platform engineer most of the time)
|
| * If you're doing it for the money, a CS education can do a lot
| to unlock better jobs-- just be really clear with yourself that
| that's what you're aiming for. School involves a lot of hoops.
| Don't do what doesn't serve you. If you're there for personal
| growth and learning, set yourself up financially and take the
| leap to go full time. You'll enjoy it a lot more if you spend the
| time saving, take intro courses and then allow for a deep dive.
| Your interests and goals will shift over time.
|
| * I really benefitted from landing in a program where I had a
| small in person cohort. I studied with my classmates a lot and
| made at least one life long friend.
|
| Anyhow, good luck! It's so exciting to go for a big goal.
| jerf wrote:
| This is one corner of the educational system I never dug into. I
| know it's possible, so, I would ask someone who has done it, how
| exactly does one progress from "no background in engineering" to
| "a Master's degree in CS"?
|
| Having done a Master's degree in CS, but with a Bachelor's in CS
| before it, the classes I took for my Master's degree would have
| been mostly impenetrable to someone without a bachelor's degree
| already.
|
| So how exactly does that work?
| ljbryf wrote:
| It takes some doing. In my case (in the USA):
|
| * Years of part time math classes. Math classes are sequential,
| I hadn't taken any college level math as an undergrad. I was
| working at a university, so I had the luxury of basically free
| credits, and lunch breaks where I was already on campus.
|
| * A unicorn, no-longer-in-existence post baccalaureate program
| that covered the highlights of undergrad CS topics in 9 months.
| It was full time, and the entry bar was pretty low, but I had
| to take the GRE. Completion granted automatic entry to the MSCS
| program.
|
| * Postbac is always an option, without a special program you'd
| just take undergraduate programs until you either earn the
| entry requirements for the MSCS program, or an actual second
| bachelor's degree. This can take years, because of course
| scheduling and sequential classes.
|
| * I went to a state school -- sadly, many of the MSCS classes
| were 400/500 level, meaning there were some nominal additional
| assignments for the grad students, but you were otherwise
| basically just taking advanced undergraduate classes for
| special topics.
|
| * All told, I spent a few years taking math classes one at a
| time, three terms full time post bac, and two terms in MSCS
| before landing a job. I don't see an advantage to finishing the
| MSCS at that school.
| iamwpj wrote:
| I'm nearing completion of my Cybersecurity Masters degree. It's
| fully online and takes around 20-40 hours per week of work. No
| thesis, but I do have a project/capstone course right now.
|
| I don't have a computer science undergrad so for me the
| motivation was both in the potential for advancement, but also a
| chance to study the field I've been working in for the past
| decade.
|
| School has some clear advantages:
|
| * It standardizes taxonomies, frameworks, and methods. You'll be
| able to talk to others who are more ingrained in things like
| distributed systems or other deep fields and recognize the
| terminology and use the correct references.
|
| * Things like ethics, establishing trust, and reliability of data
| are hard to learn "on the job" except in cases where you are
| directly prompted. These skills can be easily taught in a
| classroom setting.
|
| * The efficiency of classroom learning is hard to beat. A well
| defined lecture and reading guide will show you just the right
| content to most efficiently convey a topic. Obviously this
| requires a lecturer to be good enough at their job to
| successfully perform.
|
| Frankly, some of the arguments here against higher education are
| alarming. You should not be acquiring specific skills in your
| classes. You should have learned logic, algorithms, and how DAG
| works in your undergrad or through self teaching. Mastery of
| Apache Airflow is your own business, but much more
| straightforward with the aforementioned skills.
|
| After continuing in my IT career and taking college courses, I
| have continued to regret my time as a younger administrator. I
| was given too much permission and it's only through luck and
| coincidence I never caused turmoil. Without any formal training I
| had access to so much data and potential to inflict problems. I
| can't see a world where that kind of malpractice is allowed to
| continue. In the same way that we ask forklift operators to
| guarantee the safety of those around them by passing a test, we
| should be asking our IT workers to prove their basic abilities
| before handing over domain administrator logins.
| justinhj wrote:
| I would advise taking an IC role in deep tech. See what that
| takes, what knowledge you need. If you do need an MSc then do
| that. A couple of years as an IC will prep you to be a deep tech
| PM more than any credential.
| athorax wrote:
| What causes 4 day old questions like this to resurface with the
| timestamps showing hours old instead of days?
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| itching to get into deep tech
|
| What actions have you taken so far? Are you working through any
| books or online courses with actual homework problems?
|
| For all the things you mentioned, a good start might be studying
| calculus. Even if you studied it in high school, you're probably
| rusty.
|
| If I were in your shoes, I would sign up for mathacademy.com
| ($50/month) and commit 2 hours per day (14 hours per week) to
| studying math. This would both help you develop a study habit,
| and ensure you have a good mathematical foundation for the other
| things you want to do.
|
| In my experience, trying to study things that require some math
| foundation (like all the things you've listed) can be really hard
| and demotivating if you're missing those prerequisites. It can
| feel like you're not smart enough.
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| Not really. The utility of credentials is falling fast vs
| recommendations, networking, and work experience.
|
| If you want to learn some deeper technical things, I suggest
| online one-off courses or online mini-certificates.
|
| On the other hand, if you are still in one of the few remaining
| societies where credentialism is still rampant, then you may want
| a Masters for the prestige.
| ponty_rick wrote:
| Unless you're doing it for ease of immigration, I generally don't
| recommend it - a lot of University assignments use outdated tech
| and you end up not using most of what you've learned. The
| concepts are useful of course, but you could also read about them
| on your own time.
|
| If you're doing it for ease of immigration though, I 100%
| recommend it, not just to get a work visa, but for a foreigner
| coming to the USA its a great way to get accustomed to American
| lifestyle, make friends in a new country and create a network and
| support system.
|
| edit: spelling
| analogwzrd wrote:
| If you have no experience in writing software, physics, or
| applying higher level math, jumping into a master's program
| without an engineering background will probably wreck you.
|
| Lots of universities will let you sign up for graduate level
| classes as a continuing education student or certificate program.
| Sign up for one and see if you can keep your head above water.
| Even taking a Python class at a community college would help a
| lot.
| djent wrote:
| Why would you take graduate courses if you have no background?
| Maybe undergraduate would be more your speed
| evanmoran wrote:
| I'll try to be a bit more direct than other answers, so apologies
| if it is too much, but let me say that such a move would make
| more sense if you want to switch to a developer role. I'd say it
| is not a good plan for a PM role as honestly PMs don't need the
| tech depth to be great and two years isn't enough to be
| competitive technically with devs with 4yr degrees and 10+ years
| experience, etc. Instead consider taking an online data structure
| coding class to feel how it feels (coursera has good ones) to
| become technical. If you love it, you can choose to go further in
| that direction if you want. Hope that helps!
| itohihiyt wrote:
| I'm 40+ and I've just handed in my dissertation for a BSc in
| computer science. I've also just started an MSc in cyber
| security.
|
| My advice. If you want to get a job just do courses that are
| going to teach you the practical things you need to know/are
| interested in. Academia is a waste of time unless you're going
| into academia, or an industry that requires academic skills.
|
| All the stuff I can do is self taught, though these course have
| taught me the fundamentals.
|
| If I knew then what I know now I would have gone a different way.
| copperx wrote:
| > dissertation for a BSc in computer science
|
| Wait, dissertation? What country are you in?
| itohihiyt wrote:
| UK. That's what the uni calls it.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I'm in a AI/ML masters and it is pretty cheap.
|
| While it takes time to do, it has really held me accountable to
| actually go learn the things I really ought to be learning rather
| than being stagnant.
|
| I'm a staff PM at a big tech company and I came to realize that
| nobody knew this stuff, not even the people we are hiring to
| implement it. Therefore I decided to go out and learn it as my
| skillset needed a refresh (I come from the mobile dev boom)
| rmbyrro wrote:
| Mind sharing the link to the masters you're taking?
| thenerdhead wrote:
| It is the UT Austin program. It is a bit more theory heavy
| akin to early Andrew Ng courses at Stanford.
| lowkey wrote:
| I would recommend considering the Georgia Tech Online Masters in
| CS. You can manage the work at your own pace. It is extremely
| cost-effective, and Georgia Tech is well recognized as a tech-
| forward university.
|
| Btw, I highly I applaud your decision to go deep tech mid-career.
| I think there's not enough strong product people in deep tech.
| Even if you go back to product afterwards, your strength in
| understanding the problem space and available solutions will
| serve you well.
|
| I'm also mid-to-late career PM transitioning back into deep tech.
| My path is a little bit different than yours. I'm doing a hard
| tech startup instead.
| yayitswei wrote:
| Is this a repost? I swear I've seen a similar post recently with
| near-identical responses.
| Clubber wrote:
| >I'm a PM & designer in his late 30s who is itching to get into
| deep tech
|
| I've always told people who are interested in getting into tech:
| if you don't love it enough to do it on your own, don't get into
| the field. Not because I think they're dumb, but to excel, you
| need an almost unhealthy obsession with building software.
|
| So, having said that, I would explore the internet for a topic
| you are interested in and invest some of your free time into it.
| Build something to the point you think someone would buy it
| (polished, not throw away code). Make sure it's tested and
| relatively bug free. See how you feel after that.
|
| Having said that (again), I have an undergrad MIS degree and it
| gave me a good foundation and I learned the jargon, but the vast
| majority of practical stuff I learned, I learned working on
| personal projects at home and projects at work.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-09-17 23:01 UTC)