[HN Gopher] Apple Watch sleep apnea detection gets FDA approval
___________________________________________________________________
Apple Watch sleep apnea detection gets FDA approval
Author : brandonb
Score : 278 points
Date : 2024-09-16 16:35 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
| yumraj wrote:
| Why not Apple Watch 8?
|
| Surely it's not a technical reason, more a business one.
| MBCook wrote:
| What makes you so sure it's not technical?
| yumraj wrote:
| There are no new sensors in 9 than in 8.
|
| Different processor, battery life, etc sure..
|
| Business reason is clear: they lost the oxygen sensor, so
| people hesitant to upgrade.
| dangus wrote:
| Different processor seems like a possible reason if they're
| using new instructions.
|
| Of course I'm not saying it doesn't line up nicely with a
| business reason to incentivize upgrades.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Someone else claims the 9 has a better accelerometer...
| what's your source that 'there are no new sensors'?
| MBCook wrote:
| > Different processor, battery life, etc sure..
|
| So there's no way a better processor would be needed to get
| acceptable all night battery life and that could be the
| reason?
|
| Sounds like you may have nailed exactly why they did it.
| asadm wrote:
| atleast due to processing/battery reasons.
| brandonb wrote:
| The Apple Watch 9 and Ultra 2 have a neural engine (GPU), which
| may be helpful if the sleep apnea detection algorithm uses a
| neural network. Those models also come with a third-generation
| heart rate sensor, although that part may not be required if
| the algorithm truly only relies on accelerometer data.
| ezfe wrote:
| The Series 9 has a better low-power background accelerometer
| than the Series 8, which is likely the reason.
| Weryj wrote:
| But, both devices have breathing rate detection during sleep.
| So it's active in both devices over-night.
| ezfe wrote:
| Right, but I assume the "breathing rate" system kicks on
| much less frequently and precisely than what is needed to
| be clinically accurate.
| MBCook wrote:
| Or perhaps the system in the 9 is more accurate/detailed
| in preparation for this feature.
| can16358p wrote:
| Apple has their standards high (though I agree they sometimes
| can't meet it themselves).
|
| They wouldn't want their brand to be associated with some half
| baked feature that either runs very slow, or draws too much
| power/heats up, or unreliable.
|
| So even if another version is technically capable of that
| feature, if it runs slowly/inefficient, they'd not enable it to
| protect their brand value which makes sense: as a user if Apple
| announces a feature, I know it's more "done" compared to the
| competition like say Samsung/Android etc. and I trust that it's
| not half baked (which sometimes fails to meet the expectations,
| but still MUCH better than the competition)
|
| The business reasons are just a plus _on top of_ these reasons.
| nerdjon wrote:
| If it was purely a business one, they would not have put it on
| the Apple Watch 9 which is no longer available. Putting it on
| the 9 doesn't do anything for sales.
|
| There must have been some hardware difference.
| renewiltord wrote:
| This is fantastic. Breaking into medicine would be amazing.
| Apple's products are generally great. M
| talldayo wrote:
| Tim loves when you bounce on it.
| Circlecrypto2 wrote:
| This could be great for detecting it early where most people
| don't get help soon enough.
|
| Can't wait to get this in more devices.
| coldpie wrote:
| Yeah I'm generally a tech skeptic, but getting FDA approval for
| a real, common problem is a fantastic use for this kind of
| device. I did an at-home sleep study a few months ago, and
| while it wasn't an unpleasant experience, it did involve a long
| wait for an appointment, two trips to & from a specialty
| clinic, and awkwardly strapping on this device to sleep with
| overnight. That's a lot of barriers. Being able to do get a
| useful result for a very impactful health condition, just with
| an affordable piece of hardware that many people already have
| is a game changer.
|
| Great job to the team at Apple for getting this together &
| getting real approval for it.
| MBCook wrote:
| This won't tell you that you have sleep apnea, it will tell
| you _you might_. From there you'd probably need a real sleep
| study.
|
| However how many people will this catch that had no idea they
| should get checked? Not unlike some of the people who found
| out they have afib after their watches suggested they get
| checked? I agree this is great.
|
| It'd be interesting if we find out that a very different
| percentage of the population have sleep apnea than we thought
| simply because so many more get checked as a result of this.
| frankacter wrote:
| >Can't wait to get this in more devices.
|
| Samsung received FDA approval back in February:
|
| https://aasm.org/samsung-galaxy-watch-sleep-apnea-feature-re...
|
| It works on a different monitoring method and requires 2 sleep
| cycles over 4 hours each in a 10 day window to start detecting.
|
| >The feature, a software-only mobile medical app, uses
| smartwatch built-in sensors to monitor the user's sleep for
| significant breathing disruptions associated with OSA. Users
| may track their sleep twice for more than four hours within a
| 10-day period to utilize the feature.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Will this work outside of US or does it need to get approved by
| other orgs, like whatever is EUs FDA?
| brandonb wrote:
| They announced they're targeting 150 countries, so there will
| likely be CE-mark approval coming (this is the EU equivalent of
| the FDA).
| dns_snek wrote:
| CE marks aren't an equivalent to an FDA approval process,
| they're self-certified with no real oversight.
|
| > By affixing the CE marking to a product, a manufacturer
| declares that the product meets all the legal requirements
| for CE marking and can be sold throughout the EEA.
|
| > Please note that a CE marking does not indicate that a
| product have been approved as safe by the EU or by another
| authority. It does not indicate the origin of a product
| either.
|
| https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/single-
| market/ce-...
| adw wrote:
| The equivalent is the EMA.
| ortusdux wrote:
| Time to buy stock in the leading apnea machine manufacturers.
| arcticbull wrote:
| GLP-1s significantly improve the symptoms of sleep apnea, with
| tirzepatide reducing incidence by 2/3. Probably just stick to
| Lilly and Novo for a broader exposure ;)
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health-news/glp-1-drugs-like-zepb...
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Is it GLP-1 or just weight loss due to it? Most sleep apnea
| is caused by weight issues after all.
| outworlder wrote:
| > Most sleep apnea is caused by weight issues after all.
|
| Citation needed here. My understanding is that being
| overweight just narrows part of your airways and will make
| any existing flow restrictions worse. But given that most
| sleep apnea patients don't get off treatment even when they
| lose weight (although the severity may decrease), I'm
| pretty skeptical of this claim.
| arcticbull wrote:
| This is not a comprehensive response to your question but
| 41% of patients with BMI over 28 have sleep apnea, and
| that number grows to 78% by the time you get referred for
| bariatric surgery.
|
| There is in fact a mathematical relationship. [1]
|
| > For every 7-pounds drop in weight, expect a 7% drop in
| [apnea severity index].
|
| It's basically caused by tongue fat, pharyngeal/neck fat
| and visceral/fat in the upper belly. [2]
|
| I strongly suspect it's just a question of how much
| weight you lose. If you get down to 15% body fat you
| really won't have apnea anymore. Not for everyone,
| there's probably some structural issues that can also
| cause it, but if it's adiposity-induced, which it is for
| a huge number of people...
|
| For the rest with skeletal or nasal structure issues,
| surgery may be appropriate.
|
| [1] https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.10190
|
| [2] https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-
| releases/2020/january...
| wincy wrote:
| I have tried for months to use my APAP machine, and failed. My
| wife has no problems using her. I'm not really sure what the next
| step even is. It's frustrating because I can tell when I get a
| bad nights sleep I can't think as well, but it feels like there's
| nothing I can do about it. I can breathe through the CPAP
| exclusively for hours but then as soon as I try to go to sleep I
| feel like I'm being smothered and my heart starts racing. Does
| anyone have any advice?
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Sounds like you aren't getting enough pressure. Also sounds
| like there could be some mechanical reasons like gerd,
| allergies or inflammation that cause your apnea, especially if
| you start fine.
| david-gpu wrote:
| I agree. When we fall asleep we lose muscle tone, which makes
| apneas more likely -- that is why we have trouble breathing
| when we sleep, not when we are awake.
|
| GP needs to find out how to set up the pressure in their CPAP
| device. YouTube has tons of videos on that subject.
| iamjackg wrote:
| Did you try different types of masks? I found that I felt like
| that during the initial phases of the titration study (where
| they determine the right settings for you) but once they dialed
| in the pressure, that feeling went away and now I actually
| quite enjoy it, since it makes it easier to breathe through my
| nose. I use a nose pillow.
| bloopernova wrote:
| Do you have a slow ramp up of pressure? I have to start on low
| pressure when I first put the mask on each evening.
|
| Your sleep doc/clinic may be able to help.
| Arelius wrote:
| As an alternative, the opposite may also be true. I could
| never sleep when I had the slow ramp of pressure.
| baldeagle wrote:
| The 'ramp' setting made me panic and felt like a couldn't
| breathe. We go from zero to full force now, and it works just
| fine. I use a nose adapter.
| TylerE wrote:
| That's what I found too (minus the nose part).
|
| It's low pressures that feel suffocating (because there
| isn't sufficient airflow). High pressure feels great... as
| a life long asthmatic it's the best I ever breathe.
| Arelius wrote:
| That sounds like a huge problem! Which masks have you tried?
| There are many different mask options that you may respond
| differently to
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| Honestly? Find a new doc. I went to one for sorta similar
| issues and their advice was basically "oh well that sucks" and
| then years later went to another who said "okay let's try this
| instead"
|
| Now I'm on a bipap and tolerate it through the night.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Check with your dentist also, some apnea cases can be treated
| with a mouthpiece you wear while you are sleeping.
| hiddencost wrote:
| Have you looked into "elastic mandibular device"? You can get a
| mouth guard that keeps your jaw from falling away from
| alignment. It was enough for me to avoid a machine entirely.
| jvans wrote:
| EASE and/or MMA
|
| https://sleepapneasurgery.com/about-dr-kasey-li/
| atotic wrote:
| My kid had sleep apnea. His problem was narrow nasal
| passages. He got EASE surgery from Dr. Kasey Lee when he was
| 14, and was completely cured. You get better results getting
| surgery while bones are still pliable. It was like a miracle,
| an outpatient procedure that changes your life.
|
| After the surgery, he was finally able to get quality sleep,
| and his personality changed. Before the surgery he was super-
| intense, slightly ADHD, not doing great in school. All this
| went away after the surgery, he is just a regular bright kid
| now. We noticed changes in the first week, took about 2 years
| to find new normal. Before the surgery, we tried CPAP for a
| while, and it helped a bit.
|
| My wife also had the same surgery. It helped, but did not
| completely cure her apnea.
| m463 wrote:
| I went through the same thing.
|
| - #1 - switch to Nasal pillows.
|
| - I had to learn to breathe through my nose
|
| - I had to learn to sleep on my back with a pillow that cradled
| my head without raising it
|
| - I had to make sure the level of distilled water in the
| humidifier was not too high.
|
| - make sure the tubes are not higher than your nose (otherwise
| condensation water drips into your nose)
| jrockway wrote:
| I was prescribed a CPAP (well, APAP as you mention) and the
| first week was miserable. I think I got 3 hours of sleep total
| that week, and obviously felt like crap. I talked to my primary
| doctor and she's like "well then go back to the specialist".
| That's what I'm doing.
|
| My plan is to get a prescription I can use to buy a bunch of
| different masks (I don't care about the cost), and get a few
| days of sleep aids. That should sort it out.
|
| The few hours I did sleep with a CPAP were crazy. I forgot that
| I stopped having dreams. I had so many dreams while I could
| breathe at night.
| Aloha wrote:
| What bothers me is that you need a prescription to get a mask
| for a CPAP - I kinda get the prescription needed for the CPAP
| - but the accessory mask - that just seems absurd to me.
| Bjartr wrote:
| Looks like there's plenty of masks available on Amazon. I
| suspect a major part of why the mask gets a prescription is
| to make insurance covering it simpler.
| kube-system wrote:
| Yeah, doctors can write a prescription for over the
| counter drugs for this reason.
| TylerE wrote:
| There's a funny workaround where mask _parts_ don 't
| require a subscription. The ones I've seen on Amazon are
| usually selling parts, perhaps a kit of parts, and not a
| complete mask.
| outworlder wrote:
| I bought masks at sleeplay and another cpap store and they
| didn't ask for prescriptions. Sleeplay did ask for a
| prescription when I wanted to buy a travel CPAP.
| elric wrote:
| You don't need a prescription for CPAP masks and you don't
| need a prescription for CPAP devices. You can freely buy
| both in most parts of the world. If you happen to live
| somewhere where you can't (and you can't get a prescription
| for some reason), then I suggest you find an online
| reseller anyway.
| david-gpu wrote:
| From a few minutes on Google, it appears like most
| developed countries require a prescription to purchase a
| CPAP device, including the US (varies per state), Canada,
| UK, Australia, Germany, France and Italy.
|
| The most notable exceptions I find are Japan and
| Singapore, where it can be purchased without an Rx.
| elric wrote:
| I think those places need a prescription in order for
| insurance to pay for the machine, not to buy the machine.
| david-gpu wrote:
| That is incorrect in at least Canada and Spain.
|
| As for other developed countries, they typically have
| universal healthcare and the patient does not need to pay
| for CPAP devices. Regardless, insurance and prescriptions
| are orthogonal.
| abrichr wrote:
| You can order them online, not sure if a prescription is
| required:
|
| https://cpapoutlet.ca/
| david-gpu wrote:
| You need to email them or fax them a prescription. I live
| in Canada. I know this for a fact. I had to do it myself.
|
| From the website you linked:
|
| _> All CPAP machines require a prescription for
| shipment. Details of submitting a prescription are
| provided below. If you have any questions or concerns,
| please call us toll-free at 1-855-542-2727._
|
| Source: https://cpapoutlet.ca/pages/shipping-returns-
| policy
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| No, you need a prescription in the US. And that
| prescription is withheld by sleep specialist "doctors"
| until you do an expensive and unnecessary sleep study.
| These doctors serve no useful role other than telling you
| really obvious things, but you are forced into multiple
| appointments with them just for the prescriptions. Going
| through insurance then can require at least one more
| follow up appointment, but sometimes more depending on
| your plan. Some of them require multiple appointments
| where the doctor confirms your usage.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| at least for me, it took like two weeks of adjustment to get
| used to a CPAP.
|
| one big thing is that you really should only breathe through
| your nose if you're using nasal pillows.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I buy my masks on Amazon. No prescription needed.
|
| Also, the nasal pillow "masks" are vastly superior.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| This is a common and difficult problem. Has your sleep doctor
| helped you with it? You might also find an online Sleep Apnea
| forum has ideas for you. I learned a lot from
| https://www.apneaboard.com/
| seraphsf wrote:
| That feeling of being "smothered" might simply be that you need
| a higher pressure setting. The pressure that feels comfortable
| while awake might not be sufficient when your body is asleep.
| mikaraento wrote:
| Things that have helped me:
|
| - nose mask rather than full face mask
|
| - nasal spray if my nose feels congested
|
| - upping the pressure. In theory a professional is supposed to
| set your pressure but I do tweak mine. If the setting is not
| visible it's probably in a hidden menu - Google for how to
| enable it for your machine.
|
| - sleeping pills
|
| I hope you find a solution. Sleep apnea is terrible.
| elric wrote:
| Please don't recommend sleeping pills to people who have
| sleep apnea. They can make apneas worse.
| adrr wrote:
| I've seen someone go from AHI of 15 to a 1 during at at-home
| sleep study and asked what they did differently, they said
| their nose was stuffy so they took some cold medicine/allergy
| before bed.
|
| I wish at-home sleep tests didn't require a physician to
| prescribe and review results. It would allow people to
| experiment with sleeping positions, snore guards and other
| methods to get their AHI down.
| slaymaker1907 wrote:
| Have you tried playing around with the humidity? If I have it
| set too low, that definitely makes a big difference. There are
| also other treatments for sleep apnea that you could look into
| which might work better.
| elric wrote:
| Heated humidification is a crux. You only "really" need it
| when you have a mouth leak ( or if it's awfully cold and dry
| in your bedroom, like an igloo?). It also vastly increases
| the amount of maintenance you have to do on your CPAP device.
| It makes your masks wear our quicker. It makes your hose more
| susceptible to growing mold etc.
|
| The real trick is to fix your mouth leak. Getting on the
| right pressure helps with that. Fixing your sleeping position
| can help. Mouth tape can help. A cervical collar can help.
| Anything that will help you keep your mouth shut at night.
| david-gpu wrote:
| Humidification is necessary in any place where winter is
| cold. Cold air can't hold much absolute moisture, and as
| you warm it up to room temperature, the relative humidity
| of that air drops. In Canada you will often find the
| relative humidity of the room to be below 10% in winter,
| which is uncomfortable even in the absence of CPAP.
| bboygravity wrote:
| Reddit is pretty great for cpap related help and hints.
|
| I just did 3 nights with mine and conclusion: it's all about
| the type of mask + settings.
|
| First 2 nights was terrible (and painful on the face) due to
| wrong masks and wrong settings. 3rd night was best I've slept
| in a longgggg time.
|
| I can't tell you which masks or settings (it will be completely
| different per person), but reddit is pretty great at providing
| hints.
|
| My case: disaster with nasal mask and full face mask size L and
| high pressure settings (lots of central apnea). Almost perfect
| with 4 to 10 pressure setting and face mask size M (which
| should be too small for me according to the manufacturer).
|
| I use a Resmed Airsense 11, soon getting a heated tube so I can
| crank up the moisture setting without getting condensation and
| noises in the tube. Will try more different full face masks as
| well.
| jeffwask wrote:
| This is 100%. I've been using mine close to a decade not only
| mask size but seal type. My wife can only use the foam rubber
| type masks I use the regular ones. I also have a Resmed
| Airsense with the heated hose and it really helps.
|
| It took me a few weeks to truly get comfortable but now I
| can't imagine life without it. Never thought there would be a
| time when I could get 6-7 hours sleep and I would be fully
| rested.
| ScoobleDoodle wrote:
| I've been using a CPAP for 15 years. A few items I had to
| adjust when getting that suffocating feeling a few times:
|
| 1. When getting a new CPAP I had to reduce the pressure from 15
| to 14 or 13 to mitigate the suffocating feeling. I still get my
| normal 0.5 events per hour while I'm use. I also got a
| different type of mouth and nose mask which may have
| contributed to needing to adjust the pressure.
|
| 2. I was trying to mitigate the colder air being distracting by
| enabling the humidifier and tube heater. With the humidifier
| level too high at 5 I got a suffocating feeling, reduced it
| down to 2 or 3 and the air was warmer while not feeling
| suffocating. 3. I also turned off the dynamic pressure on
| breathe out as the timing felt off and would cause a hitch in
| breathing, so I have just plain constant pressure.
|
| The name of the game is tweaking and experimenting.
| outworlder wrote:
| > as soon as I try to go to sleep I feel like I'm being
| smothered and my heart starts racing
|
| You may need your pressure adjusted. You are awake so whatever
| pressure the machine is using is fine. Then you start falling
| asleep and that's when your apnea kicks in.
|
| If you are using the standard autoset 4-20 setting it may not
| be enough. Ideally this would be done by a medical professional
| and yada yada - insert standard disclaimer here. I would
| suggest increasing the lower pressure (say, to 7) to see if it
| helps you. I was using the default for years and, while it did
| help me, apparently it wasn't enough. After increasing, it's
| been night and day.
|
| It _could_ be an issue with your mask but given what you
| described, probably not.
| elric wrote:
| Followup sucks in most part of the world, unfortunately, which
| leads to awful compliance.
|
| Best thing to do is install Oscar [1], take screenshots of your
| data, and post it to Apnea Board [2]. The folks there will
| likely be able to offer some solid advice.
|
| Without knowing anything about you or your data, all of this
| speculation, but: APAP sucks, it is always too slow to respond,
| it won't know to increase the pressure until after you needed
| more pressure. This is especially true for wide ranges which
| are often the default (like 5-20cm). If you need 15cm, it will
| take forever to get there, because you'll start at 5, start to
| drift off, get an apnea, the machine will increase the
| pressure, you'll wake up ever so slightly from the apnea, the
| machine will decrease the pressure because now you're breathing
| fine, and the cycle will continue.
|
| [1] https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/ [2]
| https://www.apneaboard.com/forums/
| tiltowait wrote:
| I've completely stopped using my Apple Watch, but this is a
| tempting proposition. It looks like a one-off at-home sleep study
| is cheaper, but that doesn't help me if the problem materializes
| a year after I get it.
| xnx wrote:
| This is a great "free" feature in a wearable. I wonder how many
| years are left before Ozempic-like drugs make sleep apnea a
| rarity.
| nightowl_games wrote:
| Sleep apnea is not completely due to being overweight.
| a_wild_dandan wrote:
| Hence their qualifier "rarity."
| JohnMakin wrote:
| But it's not that rare in non-obese people, I think is the
| point. Obesity is certainly a risk factor.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5181619/
| david-gpu wrote:
| When I arrived at the sleep clinic with a BMI of 22, the
| first thing they told me was: there are lots of people
| with sleep apnea who have a healthy weight, including
| children.
|
| The notion that sleep apnea is generally _caused by_
| weight needs to die. People also conveniently forget that
| being woken up multiple times every hour _causes weight
| gain_ , so often times being overweight is the
| consequence of sleep apnea rather than the cause.
| elric wrote:
| Thanks, I'm usually the one who has to get on their
| soapbox to say this. I'm glad I'm not the only one
| anymore :-)
| JohnMakin wrote:
| What's crazy is all the downvoting. Why are people so
| invested in this idea that BMI is the primary/sole cause
| of OSA? It's literally killing people and the science is
| pretty conclusive. It should be one of those screens you
| take at certain milestone ages like colonoscopies.
| david-gpu wrote:
| People are ignorant about conditions they don't have and
| they want to believe that it won't affect them.
|
| I started noticing clear symptoms of OSA when my BMI was
| less than 20 and my VO2Max was around 51. That is to say,
| I was leaner and fitter than most.
|
| I completely agree that they should screen folks
| routinely.
| willcipriano wrote:
| I wouldn't count the Ozempic chickens before they roost. So far
| it looks like it's a costly lifelong injectable drug with a lot
| of reported uncomfortable side effects. That doesn't bode well
| for adherence at the population level.
| mannyv wrote:
| Actually, it's also a miracle drug that can reduce
| inflammation and reduce the medication load of millions of
| people.
|
| From what I've seen anecdotally, Ozempic adherence is much
| higher than most other meds. And the side effects are minor
| compared to, say, being 200 lbs overweight.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| That depends. A lot of people experience significant GI
| issues. And it isn't clear yet if those issues are
| reversible after stopping. It's still best for people to
| naturally control their weight and diet. Is one better than
| the other - depends on how overweight and how severe the
| side effects. Right now I feel like there isn't much focus
| and rigorous study of those side effects but over time I
| expect it will reduce the overall positives of the drug
| somewhat.
| djur wrote:
| "A lot of people experience significant GI issues. And it
| isn't clear yet if those issues are reversible after
| stopping."
|
| I don't think there's any reasonable definition of "a
| lot" where this is true. A significant number of people
| experience GI issues. Most of them subside after a time.
| There is some evidence that a small number of people may
| experience more severe GI issues that don't go away after
| stopping.
|
| "It's still best for people to naturally control their
| weight and diet."
|
| What is your evidence for this? Right now, it's looking
| like the "unnatural" GLP-1 agonists are racking up quite
| a score against "natural" methods like "willpower" and
| programmed diets. It's not a useful distinction, in any
| case. These medications cause reduced calorie
| consumption, and reduced calorie consumption causes
| weight loss naturally.
| outworlder wrote:
| Given that >80% of Americans have some form of metabolic
| dysfunction, it's not surprising that those drugs are
| having miraculous effects.
| max51 wrote:
| >And the side effects are minor compared to, say, being 200
| lbs overweight.
|
| I was about the reply the same thing. Obesity is directly
| or indirectly a risk factor for almost every health problem
| imaginable.
|
| Even for a situation that looks completely unrelated like
| getting shot in the knee by a gun, the risk of dying during
| the surgery will be significantly higher if you are obese.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Weekly injectable semaglutide is the first generation.
|
| Tirzepatide is already more effective and better tolerated
| for most people, and there is also semaglutide as a daily
| oral pill available as Rybelsus. Further generations of
| obesity drugs are already in human trials, and are showing
| even greater effects relative to the side effects (e.g.
| retatrutide and combination therapy with cagrilintide).
|
| Price is an issue, but with multiple pharma companies that
| have effective drugs, the prices have already come down quite
| a lot. My tirzepatide is running me less than PS200/month
| now, and I'm saving at least that on groceries and eating
| out. Not even counting that it's effectively cured a few
| weight related medical conditions that were costing me more.
| outworlder wrote:
| > I wonder how many years are left before Ozempic-like drugs
| make sleep apnea a rarity.
|
| Obstructive sleep apnea is not caused by being obese or old,
| although those things don't help. In _some_ people, losing
| enough weight may allow for sufficient airflow despite their
| airway restrictions.
| techwizrd wrote:
| I would be interested in knowing whether these are effective at
| detecting sleep apnea in flight crews to aid aeromedical
| certification.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> detecting sleep apnea in flight crews to aid aeromedical
| certification.
|
| 24/7 medical monitoring via a wristwatch? Monitoring that may
| cost you your career? I can think of nothing pilots would
| resist more.
| outworlder wrote:
| Treated sleep apnea is not a disqualifier.
| techwizrd wrote:
| Many pilots already use a smartwatch to track their sleep and
| provide evidence for fatigue callouts. Right now, pilots are
| grounded and face an arduous process to prove they're
| healthy. Most pilots eventually receive a special issuance
| after a fair amount of hassle. What if this could help keep
| them flying instead?
| gijsnijholt1980 wrote:
| I developed an iOS app which detects your sleeping position and
| starts buzzing if you're on your back. Similar to the tennis-
| ball-sewn-into-pyjama's hack. Apple kept refusing to approve
| stating medical reasons. Still use it myself though, works great.
| jbombadil wrote:
| Question: were the "medical reasons" specific or a generic "no
| because it's medical related" reason?
|
| As in, did their refusal say "no because the way you're
| tracking if the user is on their back is not accurate enough?"
| or did they say "we don't allow people to write watch apps
| related to medical diagnoses / treatments / etc?"
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Interesting and frustrating story! There's an Android app I've
| used that does that:
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koalative....
| BurningFrog wrote:
| How can a phone know which position you're sleeping in?
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Obviously the user untapes the tennis ball on their back,
| and tapes on their iPhone instead.
| xattt wrote:
| I thought you were supposed to use an iPad Pro.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| I wore it on a chest strap. awkward but not impossible
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Aha!
|
| Yeah, that would work!
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| Can you get your app to detect if your user's weight suddenly
| doubles while they're lying down?
| saagarjha wrote:
| Pets giving you a hard time?
| wyldfire wrote:
| It's for when the AG unit breaks on space stations. :(
| sweetjuly wrote:
| Boeing has really gone down hill since the 2800s
| eli wrote:
| Makes sense. Apple could be held liable for any false or
| misleading health claims made about an app.
| vasco wrote:
| Ironically if they stopped this gimmick they keep up to be
| able to charge 30% they could have the app and the developer
| would be the liable one. But the developer doesn't even have
| to make these claims, they can just put it up and say "this
| may detect if you're on your back".
|
| Apple isn't liable for you looking up medical misinformation
| that kills you using your iPhone on the Safari browser. Why
| would it be for an app that is clearly made by someone else?
| The difference is only because of the vetting, and they only
| do vetting to charge their fee, otherwise they'd vet other
| things too.
|
| It's incredible how companies bend backwards to bullet proof
| any liability whatsoever on anything, except if they can make
| money on it.
| kube-system wrote:
| > they only do vetting to charge their fee, otherwise
| they'd vet other things too
|
| They also vet apps to keep garbage and scams out of it.
|
| Many of the things they prohibit are things that are
| overwhelmingly good for their users:
|
| https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines
| dylan604 wrote:
| Now we're into a semantics meaning over "garbage and
| scams", as I believe pretty much all social media apps
| are a form of "garbage and scams". They just happen to
| have enough features that people like so they accept it.
| kube-system wrote:
| Which is why Apple's page that I linked is quite a lot
| longer than my comment. It is more carefully worded. It
| also isn't based on _your_ particular preferences or
| tastes, but the tastes and preferences of their target
| market(s), which may vary well not include you.
| kstrauser wrote:
| There's a reputational risk in selling software that gives
| unvalidated medical advice.
| eli wrote:
| No, it's illegal to participate in the advertising or
| promotion of products making false health claims in any
| way.
| vasco wrote:
| > But the developer doesn't even have to make these
| claims, they can just put it up and say "this may detect
| if you're on your back".
| kaba0 wrote:
| I am no lawyer, but I guess any such law has to take into
| account physical possibility. Like, e.g. youtube itself
| can't possibly flag every copyrighted content streamed
| live/etc.
| adrr wrote:
| Sleeping on your back isn't a medical treatment. It's a
| snoring reduction. You can buy snore guards, nose strips,
| special pillows etc to prevent snoring and none of those
| require FDA approval because snoring isn't a medical
| condition.
| eli wrote:
| So long as you're very careful what you say in the ad and
| within the app, sure.
| tptacek wrote:
| Is it marketed as "intended for use in the diagnosis of
| disease or other conditions, or in the cure, mitigation,
| treatment, or prevention of disease, in man or other
| animals"? That's one of three things that gets you
| categorized under the FDA regulation. There's even a term
| for it: "SaMD".
|
| It seems less likely to me that this is Apple being
| ruthless or pigheaded and more than you really do have to
| be careful how you market your iPhone apps.
|
| I take your point; the FDA doesn't recognize "snoring" as a
| medical condition (but OSA is!)
| kemayo wrote:
| Yeah, but the question is really about how the app was
| presenting it. If it was making anything that sounded like
| a health claim...
| Spivak wrote:
| Is this a sleep apnea thing because I've always been told you
| want to sleep on your back?
| ayhanfuat wrote:
| Yes, sleep apnea mostly gets worse if you sleep on your back
| so they suggest sleeping on your side.
| outworlder wrote:
| Yes, although untreated sleep apnea is dangerous and you
| shouldn't rely on this if you suspect you have it. It may
| make it better but you may still be starving your tissues
| of oxygen.
| jfengel wrote:
| Conversely, for my case:
|
| I was told that my sleep apnea didn't rise to the level
| of a medical condition needing intervention, but I should
| try to avoid sleeping on my back to help with the
| problems that do present.
| fahrnfahrnfahrn wrote:
| I have sleep apnea that I treat with a BiPAP machine. The
| neurologist who manages it said that everybody has sleep
| apnea to some degree, and, as a matter of fact, with my
| BiPAP machine, I have fewer episodes than the average
| person.
| elric wrote:
| Told by whom? Gravity works against you when you sleep on
| your back: your jaw falls in on itself, your tongue relaxes
| down into the back of your throat, stomach acid can flow up
| into your esophagus with relative ease. AFAIK the left side
| is generally the "recommended" position. It addresses all of
| those issues.
|
| In some cases sleeping on the stomach might be preferred, as
| that helps the lungs take in more oxygen, which is why
| patients on respirators are often kept on their stomachs in
| hospital.
|
| That being said: if you don't have sleep apnea or reflux, any
| position that's comfortable is probably fine. No one stays in
| one position the whole night anyway.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| >Told by whom?
|
| I sort of feel my body telling me, my back hurts because I
| never sleep on my back (because of sleep apnea, or at least
| horrendous snoring) but when I lay on my back it feels much
| more comfortable, but can't sleep that way because I will
| wake up the house.
| jacobgkau wrote:
| > my back hurts because I never sleep on my back
|
| Try a body pillow. Having something to wrap your arms &
| legs around and keep your spine aligned counteracts at
| least some of the discomforts of sleeping on your side.
| sva_ wrote:
| > just get a waifu bro
| swyx wrote:
| > AFAIK the left side is generally the "recommended"
| position
|
| whats wrong with right side?
| daedrdev wrote:
| Your heart is on the left side of your chest so its
| probably reacted to that
| fahrnfahrnfahrn wrote:
| Sleeping on the left side allows the stomach to operate
| better while sleeping on the right favors the heart. I'd
| always heard this, but recently read a short article
| confirming it. Dunno if it's true, though.
| delecti wrote:
| The arrangement and orientation of organs means you're a
| bit more likely to have acid indigestion if you're on
| your right.
| ayhanfuat wrote:
| How does it detect your sleeping position? Is it based on the
| watch position or is there another trick?
| brandonb wrote:
| We have an app which delivers medical care, and Apple let us on
| but required proof of medical licenses, malpractice insurance,
| etc. Medical apps are allowed, but there's a higher bar for
| evidence.
| hulitu wrote:
| > Medical apps are allowed, but there's a higher bar for
| evidence.
|
| Except when you are Apple. /s
| theFco wrote:
| What do you mean? The article is about how they got FDA
| approval... Isn't that the way to go? As in, it's a much
| higher bar than having a medical license and insurance no?
| atonse wrote:
| Simply not true. I once spoke to an old coworker (who's now
| a senior executive at a Fortune 500 company, not Apple).
| And he said in these large companies, there is so much
| discussion around risk, because the larger the company, the
| more of a juicy target they are for lawyers and lawsuits.
|
| So the thought that Apple wouldn't have their ducks in a
| row isn't true. Especially since any feature they release,
| will be used by millions of people pretty quickly.
|
| Just to be clear, I'm not claiming Apple doesn't give
| themselves special treatment in the App Store. They
| absolutely do (as you'd expect). Just pushing back on the
| notion that they wouldn't have documentation and all their
| legal stuff taken care of.
| golergka wrote:
| Good. Back in 2015-2016, I worked on an app that improved
| user's vision. Genuine science, publications in peer-reviewed
| journals (even Nature). But the whole category was a vast
| ocean of bullshit apps, and our product just sank in it,
| unable to differentiate itself and prove to the users that it
| was the real thing.
| jfengel wrote:
| Got any links to the research? My vision sucks.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Commenting here as a bookmark to not forget.
| ransom1538 wrote:
| Can you post this app?
| mullingitover wrote:
| Just say it's a game. Add some social widgets ("Get your non-
| back sleeping scores on the leaderboard!"). Maybe throw in a
| T&C forbidding using it for medical purposes.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| Any chance that you'd be interested in open-sourcing that app?
|
| A very long time ago, I got the impression that sleeping on
| your back is healthy, and successfully "trained" myself into
| the practice... now I'm trying desperately to untrain the habit
| 9_9
| bhelkey wrote:
| If they open source it but the app isn't allowed on the app
| store, how will anyone install it?
| freehorse wrote:
| In my understanding it can be allowed as long as they do
| not market it as medical app?
| freehorse wrote:
| It is healthy, unless you have sleep apnea or snore a lot.
| noman-land wrote:
| Everyone's talking about the app but I'm impressed by the
| tennis ball idea.
| isodev wrote:
| If you're based in Europe you could launch it on the AltStore.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| I like the concept but I'm curious how it works. It sounds like
| it's based on detecting the movements of the wearer? Does that
| work?
|
| It's a shame Apple is having patent issues with their SpO2
| sensor. The O2Ring was a huge help in me understanding my sleep
| apnea early on, in combination with a formal sleep study. Sleep
| apnea is a very common and harmful problem, any sort of way of
| helping detect it will improve a lot of lives.
| JourneyToLunar wrote:
| It's only turned off in the US right? Would they use the data
| in the rest of the world since SpO2 data is available there?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The SpO2 data isn't useful for detecting sleep apnea because
| the sampling frequency on a smartwatch is way too coarse to
| pick up on it.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| oh that's too bad. The O2Ring samples every 2 or 4 seconds
| but a lot of cheaper devices take an average reading once a
| minute or so which definitely obscures sleep apnea. (normal
| adults take a breath every 3-5 seconds when sleeping. with
| obstructive sleep apnea that can be more like once a
| minute.)
| dopylitty wrote:
| They're tracking movements. Apple has a doc on how it works
| here[0]
|
| >Apple Watch tracks movement with triaxial accelerometer
| signals, which capture coarse motion of the body as well as
| fine movements including motion associated with breathing.
| Apple developed an algorithm that uses the accelerometer time
| series data to classify Breathing Disturbances that occur
| during sleep tracking, which are temporary interruptions in the
| breathing pattern.
|
| > A total of 1499 participants were enrolled, with 1448
| completing the study. The sensitivity was 66.3% (95% CI: 62.2%
| to 70.3%), and the specificity was 98.5% (95% CI: 98.0% to
| 99.0%), demonstrating that the feature meets the design
| objectives to confidently identify sleep apnea while minimizing
| false positives.
|
| >It's important to note that the specificity was 100% (95% CI:
| 99.7 to 100%) for the normal category, indicating that all
| participants with a "positive" algorithm result had at least
| mild sleep apnea. Also, sensitivity was higher in the severe
| category at 89.1% (95% CI: 83.7% to 93.2%), indicating that the
| large majority of severe cases were identified.
|
| 0:https://www.apple.com/health/pdf/sleep-
| apnea/Sleep_Apnea_Not...
| elric wrote:
| I don't think the apple watch is as accurate as they claim, and
| it seems to need many nights of data to make a sleep apnea
| decision, so in that respect it is vastly inferior to
| polysomnography. But hey, if it helps more people seek a proper
| diagnosis, then I'm all for it. Sleep apnea sucks. It seriously
| ruins lives.
|
| Also: SpO2 is less useful here than you might think. Most at-
| home sensors are pretty unreliable, and it's possible to have
| sleep disordered breathing without having significant
| desaturation.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| Well if you already have an Apple Watch and don't want to
| spend the night plus potential sleep study cost (can be above
| $1000 for a lot of people), then this may help someone.
| Especially if they don't even know.
|
| I have sleep apnea and used Lofta's service for $187 and paid
| for the machine out of pocket. So there is definitely a need
| for this type of testing.
| hinkley wrote:
| Are the patent issues just refusing to pay now or are they more
| complicated than that?
| alex_lav wrote:
| Can a more Apple-minded person help me understand if the Apple
| Watch SE counts as "Series 9"? I don't totally understand how
| "SE" relates to numerical versioning, but I am also not an Apple
| person.
|
| Apologies in advance if this question is somehow obvious to
| others.
| saagarjha wrote:
| SE is a line orthogonal to their flagship models. Usually it
| means they took the enclosure from a previous watch and shoved
| some improved guts in it. Apple Watch SE is similar to Apple
| Watch Series 8 in terms of processing power but externally
| (screen, sensors) it's like Apple Watch Series 4 or
| thereabouts.
| wtallis wrote:
| "SE" denotes a cheaper, less capable model that is not part of
| the main sequence of product generation numbering. There have
| been two generations of Watch SE and three generations of
| iPhone SE; they're not updated as frequently as the flagship
| product line. The Watch SE does not have the sensors for EKG or
| blood oxygen, which are probably necessary for the sleep apnea
| detection.
| whatnotests2 wrote:
| Now we know why it's called Apple Watch.
|
| It watches you.
| FabHK wrote:
| Yes, always has, always will. Unlike products of many other
| manufacturers, it keeps what it learns on your devices, and
| doesn't send it home to big brother.
| outworlder wrote:
| That's precisely why I got one.
| tw04 wrote:
| So on paper it sounds great, in practice this feature seems
| almost useless to me. As someone living in the garmin watch
| ecosystem, every time a new apple watch comes out, I quickly hit
| the specs page to see if they have made any progress at all on
| reasonable battery life and am continually let down.
|
| With 36 hours being the absolute best-case scenario for battery
| life, it would seem your options are to either have two watches,
| or be perfectly fine only wearing your watch every other day?
| Otherwise, when do you charge?
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| It takes like 20 minutes to charge the watch. Just don't wear
| it for that time
| tw04 wrote:
| The manual says 45 minutes to 80%, 90 minutes to 100%. If I'm
| only charging to 80% that's roughly 14 hours of battery life
| on a Series 9 or 10 (18 hours on full charge). So not even a
| full day? I just don't get how the math works if I'm trying
| to wear it all night every night and wear it for workouts
| during the day.
| halostatue wrote:
| There is a material difference between the older Apple
| Watch (where the charging puck uses USB A) and the newer
| Apple Watch and/or the Ultra (where the charging puck uses
| USB C). Plugged into an appropriate source, the USB C puck
| gets _much_ faster charging and is usually sufficient for a
| day 's wear after about 10 minutes (depending, of course,
| on what the day includes).
|
| Charging to 80% is likely to be more than enough for most
| uses, and topping it up with another 15% just before bed is
| enough for overnight (probably).
|
| I had the Series 4 previously and the Ultra 2 now; with the
| older watch, I would charge it for about an hour while
| watching TV in the evening. With the Ultra 2, I charge it
| for about 20 minutes here and there depending on what I'm
| doing and whether I remember. I'm currently at 39% which
| will be _just fine_ for my hourlong exercise ride (with
| GPS), and then I can toss it on the charger while I shower
| and it'll probably be at 70% which is good enough for
| another full day.
| Arubis wrote:
| At the risk of sounding like a shill, you can get by on the
| Apple Watch ecosystem's battery life. The charge time is really
| quick, so throwing it on the charger while showering each day
| is sufficient.
|
| Your point that a 36 hour battery life on a watch is pretty
| inconvenient stands. I have an Ultra 2 almost entirely because
| it can be described as an Apple Watch with a slightly more
| reasonable battery life. That's a price I don't expect most
| folks to pay.
| tommi wrote:
| The 36 hour battery life also isn't a best-case scenario.
| According to apple.com
|
| "All-day battery life is based on the following use: 90 time
| checks, 90 notifications, 45 minutes of app use, and a
| 60-minute workout with music playback from Apple Watch via
| Bluetooth, over the course of 18 hours;"
| servercobra wrote:
| This is the approach I take and it works well enough to let
| me wear it while sleeping. With a USB-C charger (faster) and
| not putting it back on until I'm all done getting ready, I
| rarely have to charge outside of showering.
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| It is a bummer not to have Garmin like battery life, but it
| takes like 15 minutes to charge so you just sit it on the
| charger while Itake a shower or something or while im working
| and other than that I can wear it all the time. Battery life is
| mostly an issue if trying to do a long hike, need a garmin for
| that.
| copperroof wrote:
| I charge it when I shower.
| hakanderyal wrote:
| Everyone sets their own routine. I charge it every morning when
| I start working. Takes about an hour.
|
| It is manageable, but really sucks.
| bombcar wrote:
| When I come home from my morning walk, I'm usually a bit hot
| and sweaty, and it feels good to sit down and take the watch
| off and throw it on the charger. 10-30 minutes is enough for it
| to charge; I wish it would ding when full.
|
| If it lasted 36 hours that would be enough for me to sleep with
| it.
| bryceacc wrote:
| your phone should get a notification when its full!
| bombcar wrote:
| It does - but by then I'm working and don't look at it, and
| forget until I stand up a few hours later.
| anotherboffin wrote:
| I'm on Garmin watches as well but this line of thinking is
| getting old. Partner has an Apple Watch and they charge it
| while in the shower/getting dressed and occasionally 10-15
| minutes in the evening to make sure it gets through the night.
| Charger is in a convenient location and it's dead easy to drop
| the watch on it. If you're running ultras, then by all means
| stay on Garmin. But honestly for the day to day I've rarely
| seen it be an issue.
|
| ETA: there's plenty of valid reasons to prefer other watches
| (ANT+ compatibility being one of mine) but honestly the battery
| life thing is really not that bad for most users.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Same ish pattern for me on my Pixel Watch (2 mabye?) unless I
| forget there's plenty of time to keep it topped up for a day
| and change of use with just a quick charge in the mornings.
| There's plenty of time I don't need a watch on to give it a
| quick top up.
| boesboes wrote:
| How does this relate to sleep apnea detection?
|
| I agree the battery life is shit compared to Garmin, but then
| you need to compare features and usability too. And as a long-
| time Garmin owner I am 100% certain that is not a fair
| comparison either.
| tw04 wrote:
| >How does this relate to sleep apnea detection?
|
| Because every friend I've talked to about the apple watch
| tells me charging isn't a big deal because they just throw it
| on the charger at night with their phone and use it in the
| morning. If I'm wearing it all night to track sleep apnea,
| when do I charge it? Per my original post. It looks like it
| takes an hour and a half to do a full charge, so it's not
| like you can just throw it on the charger for 15 minutes in
| the morning while getting ready for work.
| buzzerbetrayed wrote:
| There are already numerous people in this thread saying
| that they charge it while showering in the morning and that
| is enough.
| spike021 wrote:
| My Series 6 Apple Watch lasts from about 8am to midnight every
| day. If I wanted to sleep while wearing it I'd just take it off
| around 11pm and it'd be done charging almost every time by
| midnight, sometimes even sooner.
|
| I used to religiously wear Pebble watches because they lasted
| forever between charges. But in all honesty I just don't find
| the one day battery life of AW to be that bad considering how
| quickly they charge. IMO they do have all-day battery.
| FabHK wrote:
| How is 36 hours different from 3600 hours, in your scenario?
| Either way, you need either need two watches, or not wear it
| sometimes.
|
| The answer is, of course, that sometimes you don't wear it, but
| charge it. Like a few minutes in the morning and/or a few
| minutes in the evening while you shower or eat or whatever.
| Done.
| eitally wrote:
| The difference is that you don't need to do it every day. On
| the one hand, it's pretty easy to "multitask", like charging
| while while brushing/flossing, shaving, etc. But it's
| certainly much easier to not have to think about charging it
| at all in the evening basically ever, which is the joy that
| Garmin users have.
|
| I currently have an Epix Pro and I use it to track a 45-90min
| workout about 6 days a week. I also have it set to "most
| accurate" (GPS + Galileo + GNSS) positioning and to sample
| blood oxygen all day rather than just at night, so it's
| getting quite a battery workout for a non-ultra-endurance-
| athlete user. When I opened this thread I decided it was a
| good time to charge it, since I'm in a work call anyway, and
| it was only at 53% after about a week since the last charge.
| I'll have it plugged in for 20-3min and it'll probably be
| around 90% when I put it back on after the meeting, and I'll
| find some other convenient time next week... but not until
| next week.
| cruano wrote:
| See you say that but I know if I had 5-day battery I'll
| keep forgetting about it. Happens with my airpods all the
| time.
|
| But Apple Watch is part of my routine, same as with the
| iPhone.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| > With 36 hours being the absolute best-case scenario for
| battery life, it would seem your options are to either have two
| watches, or be perfectly fine only wearing your watch every
| other day?
|
| That only makes sense if you think it takes 12+ hours to
| charge. 20 minutes on the charger in the morning while I'm
| taking a shower and getting dressed and it's fine for the next
| 24 hours. Oh no, I can't wear it in the shower. I wasn't going
| to anyways.
| ballenf wrote:
| You're going to miss out when Apple expands the hand-washing
| nag to hair washing.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| "'Wash. Rinse. Repeat.' You didn't repeat."
|
| - This was just a quick rinse
|
| - I already repeated
| Kirby64 wrote:
| You're not supposed to wear it while you shower (soap is
| generally bad for any waterproof seals...). Just slap it on the
| charger while you shower. Or slap it on the charger when you
| wake up, during your usual morning routine. It's a bit of a
| change of paradigm from the 'charge while you sleep' that we do
| with phones, but you get used to it.
| tw04 wrote:
| So you're telling me a 20 minute charge is going to get you
| through 24 hours with a workout every day? That just seems
| unlikely to me based on everything I've read.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| If you're working out every single day, probably not. But
| it should absolutely be plenty to get you through a day and
| then you can top it off for another 10-15 mins before bed.
| It'll even give you an alert informing you it needs
| charging to make it through the night at the appropriate
| time before your configured "wind down" period so you can
| charge right before bed.
|
| Lower states of charge will charge faster, so 2 smaller
| charging sessions would result in less total time spent
| charging, actually.
| outworlder wrote:
| > in practice this feature seems almost useless to me
|
| Maybe to you, assuming you don't have sleep apnea.
|
| Far too many people have it and it goes undiagnosed. Until that
| person goes on to have a stroke, heart attack or sleeps at the
| wheel.
|
| It's a silent killer and I suspect we have an epidemic.
| tw04 wrote:
| You're missing the point. It's not useless as a feature in a
| vacuum. It seems useless on a device that needs to be charged
| every night to be used during the day. I'm extremely
| skeptical of the folks saying they only need to charge for 20
| minutes to get by for 24 hours when the specs say other wise
| and friends that have Apple Watches say otherwise as well.
| nerdjon wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, a better battery would be great. But the
| only time I ever run into issues with my apple watch dying is
| when I am traveling and my routine is messed up anyways.
|
| Otherwise I am just in the habit of waking up, sticking it on
| the charger, getting ready for my day and putting it back on.
| Doesn't take long to get to a full charge.
|
| I get access to all of the features and just loose it for 30
| minutes to an hour.
| petesergeant wrote:
| I charge when I'm in the shower each day and this works fine
| for me.
| efsavage wrote:
| Does this mean that you could be prescribed an Apple Watch if you
| were at risk of apnea? Or even use an HSA?
| Bluecobra wrote:
| I have been really curious to this. In IRS Publication 502, it
| states: "Medical care expenses must be primarily to alleviate
| or prevent a physical or mental disability or illness."
|
| You could make the argument that the Apple Watch can be used to
| manage your sleep apnea condition. On the off chance you get
| audited by the IRS you might just be better off paying for it
| with non-HSA funds rather than dealing with that mess.
|
| PSA: HSA expenses are based on the honor system, but obviously
| don't go to Best Buy and buy a PS5 on a HSA debit card. You are
| allowed to reimburse yourself for medical purchases. For
| example, if you have a large ticket medical expense you can use
| a credit card that provides a perk like air miles and then just
| transfer the funds from your HSA checking account to your
| regular checking account. Just remember to keep detailed
| records/receipts.
| tantalor wrote:
| I can see it now: it's December and my FSA still has a balance,
| must be time to buy 12 Apple Watches and sell them on eBay.
| 39896880 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, does your health plan have an HSA? After
| learning about these I decided that FSAs are a total rip off.
| Why would my money expire?
| kstrauser wrote:
| If you _know_ you 're going to have certain recurring
| expenses, they can be great. That money's untaxed so you're
| basically getting a 25% or whatever discount on whatever
| you buy with FSA money. But yes, the expiration bit is
| insane. That's how I ended up buying a pair of prescription
| Ray-Bans in late December several years ago.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| No, the watch is not a medical device intended to treat
| something. Just a general fitness device. Even the built-in EKG
| doesn't qualify it for HSA, and that is a lot closer to being
| medical than a notification pop-up saying you might want to ask
| your doctor to test you for sleep apnea.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| The problem is that these at home tests aren't good enough to
| eliminate the costly and time consuming and inconvenient step of
| a sleep study in the lab. At least near me, to get a CPAP you
| first do a take home study with a wrist based (watch like)
| recorder. Then they make you go into the lab for an overnight
| sleep study (or multiple of them) anyways, for a study that costs
| your insurance several thousand dollars per night (and you have
| some copay potentially) and it is of course a massive hassle and
| barrier to getting CPAP treatment. They claim it is so they know
| your air pressure numbers but it is all just regulatory capture,
| because CPAP machines can auto adjust your pressure and people
| like to tweak numbers manually to their comfort level anyways.
|
| Can Apple do something about eliminating all these bureaucratic
| barriers that hurt the health of so many?
| outworlder wrote:
| The largest barrier by far is actually starting the process to
| get a diagnosis. It's often a family member that notices and
| raises the alarm.
|
| Note that you can be diagnosed with sleep apnea based on the
| home study alone, you don't always have to go to a sleep
| clinic. If you are really sure you have sleep apnea (and you
| can be pretty certain with a home sleep study + symptoms) you
| can just go online and get a prescription for free by talking
| to a doctor at one of the companies that resell CPAP machines.
| At least in the US, other countries can be more bureaucratic.
| Bluecobra wrote:
| > Can Apple do something about eliminating all these
| bureaucratic barriers that hurt the health of so many?
|
| I sure hope so, because my experiences with sleep apnea made it
| seemed very quack-ish. I keep on hearing ads on the radio by a
| company called ADVENT with a catchy jingle promising that
| surgery is the solution to snoring. At the time I had my study
| (2013) I did not have an in-home test and had a sleep test
| (which was an awful experience). I was prescribed a Phillips
| CPAP machine and was very good about adhering to it and keeping
| up with regular doctor visits. During the 3 years I had it, I
| lost a significant amount of weight and each time my doctor re-
| programmed my CPAP SD card so it was a lower and lower setting.
| I always had very little face time with the doctor, I wish I
| knew about Sleepyhead earlier as I could have done this myself.
| The practice I was referred to would always try to sell me
| stuff like new masks, tubes, etc. when everything I had was in
| good condition and frequently cleaned. I even used distilled
| water in the CPAP itself. Eventually I went on a long vacation
| and didn't bring my machine and been off it since. I'm glad I
| did, it turns out Phillips was negligent about foam breaking
| down in their CPAP machines and even the replacement devices
| have this issue as well. At this point I don't know who to
| trust, and with something with Apple's name on it would give to
| some more legitimacy.
| elric wrote:
| > They claim it is so they know your air pressure numbers but
| it is all just regulatory capture
|
| I disagree. In lab titration is not about regulatory capture.
| It's the best place to get a good ballpark start. The rest
| should be up to the patient, but informing the patient of that
| is where things go wrong, alas.
|
| > CPAP machines can auto adjust your pressure and people like
| to tweak numbers manually to their comfort level anyways.
|
| They cannot. See my rant about APAP in the comments here, or my
| previous APAP rants in my history. Current generation APAP is
| awful and it needs to die. PAP machines are awful at detecting
| events. This could probably be partially mitigate with better
| software. But there is a reason why a sleep study is very much
| the gold standard. 12+ channels of valuable information. Versus
| 1 channel on the PAP device.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Current generation APAP works great - not sure why you're
| calling it awful. And I disagree that more channels are
| necessary - that's a statistical implication that not true in
| general and shouldn't be assumed blindly here. What needs to
| die is regulatory capture and bureaucratic barriers that take
| health care out of patients own hands, which is what the
| sleep study scam does, at least in the US, where you cannot
| get a CPAP/APAP device otherwise.
| swyx wrote:
| > The feature, announced at last week's iPhone 16 event, will
| arrive as part of the imminent watchOS 11 release.
|
| how exactly was Apple able to preannounce approval for this
| before the, yknow, approval?
|
| like exactly no other agencies work this way, precommiting them
| to a decision they havent formally taken, even if informally it
| was already taken they would frown very strongly on leaking their
| stuff
| dgarrett wrote:
| The announcement said that the feature was pending FDA
| approval.
| nobrains wrote:
| Most likely the decision was taken internally, but sometimes to
| make it official requires some procedural paperwork. Apple
| probably got the green light that the approval was approved on
| the way.
| larkost wrote:
| Having been next to the people working with the FDA at one
| point, they do tend to give a lot of feedback, especially
| when they don't like something. And there were a lot of hoops
| to jump though where the feedback was "you are on track" for
| a while before the actual official approval of that step came
| through.
|
| Very likely all of the core approvals were done, and they
| were just waiting on things like approval of software testing
| methodology (yes, they have to approve your software testing
| system), or something of the like.
| Beijinger wrote:
| Is any VC guy here that is interested in medical devices? I would
| have something for you.
| nox101 wrote:
| It going to be great fun as Apple and Google add more and more
| medical features and then when they ban your account you lose
| them all. Maybe this will be more of the door to break their
| control on mobile computing.
| argsnd wrote:
| I understand the argument that it's quite annoying that so much
| of the hardware you own relies on Apple permitting you to keep
| using it, but on the other hand what are you even doing to make
| them ban you? Their terms and conditions make it fairly clear
| that the only thing that would cause this is if you upload
| illegal content to their platform or attempt to chargeback
| purchases.
| dvngnt_ wrote:
| or you get hacked and your account is used for spam
|
| or you email an innocent picture of your naked baby in their
| first bath and the ML gets your banned
| fsflover wrote:
| > Their terms and conditions make it fairly clear that the
| only thing that would cause this is if you upload illegal
| content
|
| This is false:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32547912
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33737577
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35133917
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22146082
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22705122
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4013799
| yreg wrote:
| Those are all Google, argsnd is talking about Apple. But
| I'm sure one can get randomly banned by Apple as well.
| yreg wrote:
| You don't lose your HealthKit data when your AppleID gets
| banned. The data is still on your phone.
|
| You can also backup your phone outside of iCloud.
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