[HN Gopher] Paraguay Loves Mickey, the Cartoon Mouse. Disney Doe...
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       Paraguay Loves Mickey, the Cartoon Mouse. Disney Doesn't
        
       Author : howard941
       Score  : 166 points
       Date   : 2024-09-15 21:09 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
        
       | muhoweb wrote:
       | Mirror: https://archive.is/TmaOu
        
       | kragen wrote:
       | you'd think an article nominally about 'intellectual property'
       | would mention that mickey mouse is out of copyright now, at least
       | in countries that apply the rule of the shorter term
       | 
       | https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/mickey/
        
         | codetrotter wrote:
         | But the Mickey Mouse that is out of copyright is specifically
         | the one you see in Steamboat Willie from 1928 (and maybe some
         | of their other old movies with Mickey, I don't remember what
         | other movies Disney made early on around 1928).
         | 
         | Meanwhile the Mickey that is shown posing on top of a building
         | in one of the photos looks like a more recent Mickey. (But I'm
         | no Mickey expert.)
         | 
         | And it is important to keep that in mind.
        
           | aaronbrethorst wrote:
           | Which is why Crooked Media can sell a t-shirt of two
           | Steamboat Willies kissing without receiving a cease and
           | desist but can't feature a pair of more modern looking
           | Mickeys going at it:
           | https://store.crooked.com/collections/pride-or-
           | else/products...
        
         | kevin_thibedeau wrote:
         | It's still a trademark for perpetuity. Copyright expiration on
         | specific films doesn't change that. This is why Disney started
         | using the pie-eyed mickey more heavily in their marketing 10+
         | years ago to reinforce their trademark over that version of the
         | character.
        
           | ethbr1 wrote:
           | It's in trademark as long as Disney registers and renews the
           | trademark in whatever country.
           | 
           | And trademark doesn't protect against any and all use in the
           | same way copyright does -- only uses that might create
           | consumer confusion with the trademark owner's uses.
           | 
           | Presumably, a company that has been selling grocery staples
           | since 1935 with that logo isn't creating much confusion.
           | 
           | Arguably, Paraguayan Mickey has a better claim that modern
           | do-everything Disney Mickey is infringing on _its_ long-
           | established trademark...
        
             | eru wrote:
             | > Presumably, a company that has been selling grocery
             | staples since 1935 with that logo isn't creating much
             | confusion.
             | 
             | Yes, though their mascot might be? The article itself
             | clearly states that the locals seem to associate the man-
             | in-costume-mascot with going to Disneyland.
        
               | labster wrote:
               | It's not Mickey's fault that a foreign company created a
               | theme park with their corporate mascot 20 years later.
               | Just one of those weird coincidences hahaha.
        
               | eru wrote:
               | Perhaps they should have registered a trademark for Theme
               | Parks to prevent that from happening?
        
               | nashashmi wrote:
               | Mickey Mouse was created in 1928. Grocery Store was
               | created in 1935.
        
           | bongodongobob wrote:
           | What is pie-eyed mickey?
        
             | latexr wrote:
             | It's the older version where there's no division between
             | the sclera (white of eye) and the rest of the skull:
             | 
             | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0d/Mickey_-
             | _The_...
             | 
             | Compare to later versions, where the eyes are well defined:
             | 
             | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Mickey_-
             | _Fant...
             | 
             | In recent years, Disney has been using the old version from
             | Steamboat Willie at the start of movies:
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Willie
             | 
             | And even making new shorts with that style:
             | 
             | https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6qIbU1olyXQe1WOKt8
             | U...
        
               | swayvil wrote:
               | The new shorts. It's some kind of Lovecraftian mockery.
        
               | bongodongobob wrote:
               | Yeah, those really are awful. Ren and Stimpyified but
               | made for the modern 3 second attention span.
        
               | mrighele wrote:
               | Oh boy.
               | 
               | While the art is similar, the animation is quite
               | different (in a very bad way). They are also completely
               | unfunny.
               | 
               | (* goes back to watch old hand-animated episodes of
               | Tom&Jerry and Wile E. Coyote *)
        
               | PhasmaFelis wrote:
               | I thought "pie-eyed" was specifically where there's a
               | triangular "shine"/cutout from the black pupil, like a
               | pie with one slice removed. Your first example has solid
               | black eyes.
        
           | MichaelZuo wrote:
           | Disney's claims and paperwork has to be accepted by the
           | Paraguayan trademark office specifically in this case, not
           | just any trademark office.
           | 
           | Unless both the US and Paraguay have ratified a 100%
           | automatic international trademark treaty, which seems
           | unlikely.
        
           | kragen wrote:
           | copyright is subject to broad international recognition under
           | a couple of very widespread treaties, and the pct provides a
           | weaker way to obtain the same patent in a smaller set of
           | countries, but trademark is an explicitly local thing. even
           | in the usa, a trademark in one town may not be valid in the
           | next (think 'jones's 24-hour laundry') and even registered
           | trademarks are often only registered in the trademark office
           | of one state. (every state has its own trademark office, in
           | addition to the federal pto.) there is no trademark
           | equivalent of the berne convention or the pct
           | 
           | so the idea of a paraguayan company, in paraguay, infringing
           | a us trademark, is legal hogwash. mickey is a disney
           | trademark in paraguay only to the extent that the paraguayan
           | government decides to grant it to them, a decision that
           | should be made on the basis of, among other things, existing
           | uses by other companies. this is a fundamental and
           | intentional feature of trademark law in every jurisdiction i
           | am familiar with, not a bug
           | 
           | -- *** --
           | 
           | to a significant extent trademark law is arbitrary in the
           | same way traffic laws are. there's no objective reason,
           | nothing justifiable according to some kind of natural law,
           | that says you should drive on the left side of the road, or
           | stop when the traffic light turns red rather than green. if
           | everyone else is driving on the right side of the road, or
           | stopping when their light turns green and your light turns
           | red, that would be a better thing to do. the law in these
           | cases is merely establishing a schelling point that allows a
           | large society to coordinate their actions through more or
           | less random but well-known decisions
           | 
           | the justification for trademark law is to protect consumers
           | from inferior goods bearing the name of a reputable maker,
           | but made by someone else. for this purpose it reserves
           | particular names and logos for the exclusive use of
           | particular makers. _which_ particular names and logos are
           | reserved for which particular makers is essentially
           | arbitrary; what matters is that it be relatively consistent
           | over time, so that consumers aren 't buying good mickey-
           | branded bread from the paraguayan mickey company one day and
           | adulterated mickey-branded bread licensed by disney the next
           | 
           | (you can argue that to some extent modern trademark law is
           | failing at this job, due to notorious cases of perfectly
           | legal line extension fraud--such as exploding tempered-soda-
           | lime-glass pyrex, saran-free saran wrap, pseudoephedrine-free
           | sudafed, kaopectate without kaolin or pectin, and generic
           | t-shirts bearing a designer's licensed brand--or the
           | widespread phenomenon of private equity firms buying a
           | quality brand and replacing its products with inferior
           | replacements. but that's the justification for its existence)
        
             | ChrisArchitect wrote:
             | Easy there, they're trying to make your tri-star symbol
             | into the https://symbol.fediverse.info/, maybe a case for
             | future trademark/identity law /s
        
               | kragen wrote:
               | everyone has my permission ;)
        
           | tangus wrote:
           | As the article says, the Paraguayan company has been filing
           | and renewing the Mickey trademark, without challenge, since
           | the 1950s. That's the reason Disney lost the suit.
        
         | cfraenkel wrote:
         | Um, except that the article is about a trademark. Mickey (the
         | Paraguayan company) isn't printing comics or producing
         | cartoons, so how would copyright apply?
         | 
         | (as your linked article from duke.edu explicitly explains)
        
           | rubyfan wrote:
           | Yeah it's a trademark issue, not a copyright issue.
        
           | mig39 wrote:
           | They're using Mickey Mouse (or their version of him), as a
           | mascot. Doesn't that mean it's about a trademark?
           | 
           | The business in question literally has a mouse, named Mickey,
           | that looks a lot like the trademark of Disney, on their
           | packaging, their buildings, and their advertisements. They
           | are literally using Disney's trademark.
        
             | eru wrote:
             | Oh, yes? That's exactly what the comment you are replying
             | to is talking about:
             | 
             | The article is about trademark, not copyright.
        
           | kragen wrote:
           | it's possible for a single thing to be subject to both
           | trademark and copyright law, even in the usa; often the
           | owners of the copyright and the trademark are different. this
           | is how graphic designers get paid for designing corporate
           | logos on spec, for example. see for example
           | https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html
           | 
           | > _How do I copyright a name, title, slogan, or logo?_
           | 
           | > _Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or
           | short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected
           | as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office,
           | TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov or see Circular 33, for
           | further information. However, copyright protection may be
           | available for logo artwork that contains sufficient
           | authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also
           | be protected as a trademark._
           | 
           | see also https://www.quisenberrylaw.com/ip-discovery-
           | blog/who-owns-th...
           | 
           | it seems clear that the paraguayan mickey company is the
           | legitimate owner of the paraguayan trademark
        
         | pigeons wrote:
         | The copyright has expired for the Steamboat Willie short film
         | and a few other things like certain comic strips featuring
         | Mickey Mouse. To me that seems different than "mickey mouse is
         | out of copyright now".
        
           | kragen wrote:
           | fortunately for you, jennifer jenkins, the director of the
           | center for the study of the public domain at duke
           | university's law school, has written a 6000-word explanation
           | of the precise extent to which mickey mouse is or is not out
           | of copyright now, including 21 footnotes which add further
           | detail, which i linked in my comment above and will link
           | again here now for your benefit
           | 
           | https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/mickey/
        
         | TheRealPomax wrote:
         | It's not. A character by that name from a 1928 animation is out
         | of copyright. It is an entirely open question at what point a
         | derivative work becomes a new stand-alone work and what that
         | actually means for the copyright of the character by the same
         | name with a different character design currently used by Disney
         | as one of their brand characters.
        
       | rubyfan wrote:
       | Sounds like Disney failed to protect its mark in Paraguay over
       | many decades.
        
       | aij wrote:
       | Mickey was selling foods under that trademark in Paraguay since
       | 1835. When did Disney start competing in that market segment with
       | their Mickey Mouse brand?
        
         | kragen wrote:
         | well, 01935, not 01835. not a lot of paraguayan businesses from
         | 01835 survive thanks to the war of the triple alliance
        
           | aij wrote:
           | Ack, yes, I meant 1935. I'm on mobile and typoed that in a
           | way the spell checker couldn't catch...
           | 
           | Even now in the US I have yet to see Disney selling rice
           | under the Mickey Mouse brand in a way that could be at all
           | confused with the Mickey rice in Paraguay that I grew up
           | with.
        
           | klyrs wrote:
           | Neither 8 nor 9 are valid octal digits, please stop that
        
             | darthoctopus wrote:
             | This is valid (if somewhat obscure) notation for decimal
             | dates in particular, see e.g.
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Now_Foundation
        
               | dpassens wrote:
               | It's a stupid notation:
               | 
               | > the foundation uses 5-digit dates to address the Year
               | 10,000 problem
               | 
               | That just sets you up for the year 100,000 problem. The
               | objectively better idea is to just parse years as regular
               | integers, something that I'm confident people will figure
               | out in the remaining 8 millennia until the problem
               | actually hits.
        
               | defrost wrote:
               | It's true that they _say_ that:                   The
               | Long Now Foundation uses five-digit dates, the extra zero
               | is to solve the deca-millennium bug which will come into
               | effect in about 8,000 years.
               | 
               | ~ https://longnow.org/about/
               | 
               | but the truth is more subtle, love it or hate it the five
               | digits are part of a campaign to encourage people to
               | think about humans in timescales a tad longer than a few
               | decades at most.
        
               | shultays wrote:
               | It just sounds like a way for people to try showing how
               | smart they are while in reality it just adds confusion to
               | completely irrelevant discussions, such as this one.
               | 
               | I think the campaign does opposite of what it says. Using
               | 5 digits limits your dates to dates to a maximum of year
               | 99999. While not giving a fuck, using the digits needed
               | to represent a year, works for all years. No one is
               | clamping their years to 4 digits when they say '2024',
               | they are just using the necessary digits needed for that
               | year
        
               | AStonesThrow wrote:
               | Someday we'll admit that Roman numerals were perfectly
               | efficient, and the only reason we switched to decimal was
               | because of that DCLXVI guy.
               | 
               | (As of A.D. MMXXIV)
        
               | sionisrecur wrote:
               | Why start counting 02024 years ago then? is pretty much a
               | small scale arbitrary starting point. Humans have existed
               | for longer than that, they could say we are in the year
               | 300000.
        
               | everybodyknows wrote:
               | How does promotion by a single non-profit talking shop,
               | however celebrated or intellectual were its founders,
               | make it a "valid notation"?
               | 
               | Five digits don't even make sense in practical anthropic
               | terms, since we're obviously headed for a shitload of
               | trouble long before the hundreds digit next wraps.
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | Indeed, my joke was written with the full knowledge of
               | this farce. To make any prediction about technology in
               | use 8000 years from now is just silly.
        
           | tangus wrote:
           | To add some context as to why businesses wouldn't survive it,
           | that war happened between 00001864 and 00001870, and wiped
           | more than 00000050% of the male population (estimates vary).
        
       | miki123211 wrote:
       | See Also, Hungry Jack's[1].
       | 
       | They're an Australian fast-food chain, named so because Burger
       | King was already a trademark owned by some small Australian
       | store, and couldn't be used by the company that the rest of the
       | world knows as Burger King.
       | 
       | [1]
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungry_Jack%27s#:~:text=Hungry....
        
         | jkestner wrote:
         | U-Haul Australia is not associated with the American company at
         | all. They just were able to register the trademark first, even
         | using the original's brand assets.
        
         | jaza wrote:
         | Also Taco Bell, which was absent here in Australia for many
         | years, due to a long-running legal battle[1] with local chain
         | Taco Bill. The first Taco Bell only opened in inner Sydney
         | about 3 years ago (after decades of failed attempts).
         | 
         | [1] https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/taco-bell-and-
         | taco...
        
           | chris_wot wrote:
           | I know there was a Taco Bell in the Sydney CBD decades ago -
           | I ate at it.
        
           | csours wrote:
           | I'm at the Pizza Yurt, I'm at the Taco Bill
        
         | jccalhoun wrote:
         | Growing up in Indiana we had Waffle House which was different
         | than the more famous chain. The chain called themselves Waffle
         | and Steak in Indiana.
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle_House#Waffle_and_Steak
        
       | sombragris wrote:
       | Paraguayan lawyer here. Paraguayan trademark law states that
       | every trademark title is valid for a 10-year term, and then it
       | has to be renewed, with a 6-month grace period for renewal.
       | Otherwise the trademark expires and it has to be registered using
       | the whole process (which can be long).
       | 
       | Apparently, Disney failed to register its trademark for a long
       | time while [Paraguayan] Mickey dutifully did so, and also being
       | careful not to overreach its trademark categories, things that
       | helped it.
        
         | _3u10 wrote:
         | I've always wondered how all this mickey branded stuff exists
         | since I got here, especially with major brands.
         | 
         | Do you have any insight into why so many signs are in English?
         | I can understand maybe foreign brands, but local mom and pop
         | stores have giant signs like "50% Off. #partytime" especially
         | businesses where no one speaks english.
        
           | sombragris wrote:
           | > Do you have any insight into why so many signs are in
           | English? I can understand maybe foreign brands, but local mom
           | and pop stores have giant signs like "50% Off. #partytime"
           | especially businesses where no one speaks english.
           | 
           | That "casual English" is somewhat part of the language of the
           | new generation. They're more like catchwords, because people
           | don't really speak the language. People, especially young
           | urban folks, use it to appear "cool".
        
             | euroderf wrote:
             | Same phenom in Finland. But then it gets kinda weird when
             | recruitment ads have job titles in English and then the
             | body text in Finnish.
        
               | pvaldes wrote:
               | People spent more time reading your job offer if is
               | explained in their own language. Less friction, more
               | eyeball time, that is what you want if you are a
               | recruiter.
        
               | euroderf wrote:
               | Oh, sure. It's not the Finnish body text that throws ya
               | off. It's seeing that after the big, bold English job
               | title !
        
               | calpaterson wrote:
               | Speaking of - I'm organising a coffee morning for HN
               | readers here in Helsinki. Get in touch (email in my
               | profile) if you want to come along
        
               | dustincoates wrote:
               | The same thing with job titles happens in France, too.
               | 
               | Also, back when tech meetups were more common, you would
               | often have where the title and description were in
               | English, and the talks in French.
        
               | archi42 wrote:
               | Not only tech... I live close to the French border. My
               | wife asked me to go to some criminal dinner event thing
               | in France, and all the leaflets and the website were
               | English. Great! Checking out the details, a small remark
               | in a table with the dates and such catches my eye
               | "Language: French". Well, maybe that's the French
               | date,... Nope, that's for all scheduled events. Kthxbye.
               | At least we were not surprised on site, because my French
               | c'est no bene.
        
             | nkozyra wrote:
             | > That "casual English" is somewhat part of the language of
             | the new generation.
             | 
             | It's a near global lingua franca and the Internet has only
             | accelerated that.
             | 
             | I wonder how long it will be until English just sort of
             | becomes first language in non-native English speaking
             | countries with the current trajectory and momentum of
             | English-first Llama.
             | 
             | Shame it couldn't be a more cohesive spoken language.
        
               | throw__away7391 wrote:
               | I have observed in dozens of countries that the youngest
               | generation now speaks English quite fluently in most of
               | the world. Boomers might know only a few phrases, many
               | millennials can speak well enough, but quite a lot of
               | teenagers now are speaking fluently, using slang and
               | making jokes.
        
               | razakel wrote:
               | I've heard of kids becoming fluent in English before
               | their mother tongue simply from exposure to subtitled TV
               | and movies! It's usually countries where the market is
               | too small to justify dubbing.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Like Lojban?
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | It won't happen except in the imagination of mono-
               | lingual-future dreamers on HN (popular idea here for some
               | reason).
        
               | altruios wrote:
               | Well, speaking in different languages facilitates
               | different modes of thinking which results in different
               | thoughts. Some thoughts are easier to have in one
               | language than another. It takes all sorts to make a world
               | and multiple languages means a broader mental space to
               | explore ideas.
               | 
               | People against that tend to lean totalitarian. People for
               | a monoculture, that is. That is an inherently limiting
               | philosophy which can only die out as it narrows the
               | 'acceptable ideas' list over time.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | > Well, speaking in different languages facilitates
               | different modes of thinking
               | 
               | Sapir-Whorf? Can't that just be put to bed by now?
               | 
               | > People against that tend to lean totalitarian. People
               | for a monoculture, that is.
               | 
               | On the topic of languages at least.
               | 
               | Some technologists seem to want to get rid of all
               | ostensibly useless things. More than one language being
               | one of them.
        
               | FabHK wrote:
               | Exactly. Culture obviously influences thinking, language
               | less so. Sapir-Whorf has been refuted, except for some
               | minor minor areas (names of colours - some people call
               | these two colours two different names, some call them the
               | same - big deal!; left-right vs north-east-south-west;
               | etc.)
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | no, that's just chomskists getting desperate. Polyglots
               | can't be Sapir-Whorf denialists, and Internet is only
               | broadening paths to be that, so support for UG theory
               | must increasingly become irrational and negative.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | I understand that polyglot means at least three languages
               | most commonly, but I'm bilingual and haven't experienced
               | this effect. Would it come with my third language?
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | I'm a Japanese speaker with maybe above Japanese average
               | but way below professional English and effectively
               | nothing else except I've taken _a_ Chinese class, and
               | it's currently obvious to me that UG theory is largely BS
               | and most of the rest tautological, except I have no
               | ability to succinctly point it out in a logical, academia
               | accepted language.
               | 
               | There's been too many anecdotal cases I've had that
               | aren't going to fit with the basic premise of UG theory
               | that there's a hard-wired common human language engine
               | with output stage that is language. Like they seem to
               | have logical constructions that feels sound but aren't
               | going to be linguistically valid in languages I know in
               | Chinese, and there are of course phenomena of people's
               | attitudes switching along with their languages, etc.
               | 
               | One counter example to UG theory I've come across
               | recently is an easily understood phrase "verbalizing
               | one's feelings": if UG theory holds some water, feeling
               | == thoughts == language, or at least they should be close
               | to each others, and we should be able to just `^C dump-
               | sumerian<CR>` at any moment at zero cost, and we can't.
               | Not that it takes unreasonable bandwidth or storage to do
               | so but we _can 't_. Doesn't that perhaps suggest that
               | languages are both external yet natural to yourself as
               | much as a keyboard is to a man?
               | 
               | Maybe it actually needs exposure to the third language so
               | your subconscious can eliminate the possibility that
               | you're just not good at the second one, I don't know,
               | though I do believe multi(>=3) lingualism is sufficient
               | condition.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | You're bilingual like me?
               | 
               | UG means Universal Grammar? I guess you have me pegged as
               | a Chomskyist because it makes sense to me. But I can't
               | understand you taking a Chinese class made you an
               | embittered opponent of some advanced, nerdy linguistic
               | theory. For my part I wouldn't be able to understand it
               | at a technical level.
        
               | altruios wrote:
               | >Sapir-Whorf? Can't that just be put to bed by now?
               | 
               | Said by someone who only speaks one language? Nice Idiom:
               | shame if something were to happen to it.
               | 
               | It is SO EASY to prove this (literally just talk to any
               | multilingual and watch their entire personality shift
               | when they change languages {some languages have larger
               | gaps}, they themselves don't often notice the effect)!
               | 
               | >On the topic of languages at least.
               | 
               | At least, you say... hmmm... why does that raise ALL THE
               | RED FLAGS...
               | 
               | > Some technologists seem to want to get rid of all
               | ostensibly useless things. More than one language being
               | one of them.
               | 
               | which is why programmers keep inventing new languages
               | (rust), which is the defacto standard everyone uses now.
               | /s
               | 
               | Your arguments are as singularly cultured as what you
               | argue for.... Which - as it so happens to be - (the
               | quality of your arguments) is exactly my argument against
               | such a future state.
               | 
               | And on one more note: Dave Ackley has some nifty ideas
               | about the opposite of efficiency being robustness instead
               | of waste. having a monoculture promises efficiency, but
               | with that comes a brittleness that will cut us.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | You didn't pick up on the tone then. I was being derisive
               | towards the mono-lingual-future dreamers.
        
               | altruios wrote:
               | thank you!
               | 
               | Sorry, tone is very hard on the internet sometimes.
               | 
               | Any sass would be directed at mono-lingual-future
               | dreamers.
        
               | aeonik wrote:
               | I thought the weak form was pretty solid?
               | 
               | It's pretty obvious to anyone who learns math or
               | programming, that once you find the right vocabulary or
               | equation for something, that your brain chunks it, and
               | it's easier to reason about that domain moving forward.
               | 
               | Of course it's not like if you don't have the word "blue"
               | you are color blind, it's just that it's really hard to
               | have a conversation about 10 different shades of blue if
               | you don't even have a word for it.
               | 
               | The strong version of Sapir Whorf is obviously false
               | because everyone has perceptions and feelings that they
               | can't put words to.
        
               | Wytwwww wrote:
               | Depends on the country probably. In some places, at least
               | reasonably high English fluency is near universal. It
               | wouldn't be surprising if these countries eventually
               | became effectively bilingual.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | That's different. GP said "first language"...
        
               | nkozyra wrote:
               | Yeah, the multi-lingual stuff isn't what I'm talking
               | about. I'm referring to countries where English is spoken
               | enough by this generation that it may just leak into a
               | first language for their children or grandchildren.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | First language means the first language, the mother
               | tongue. Which implies supplanting the existing first
               | language.
               | 
               | Kids becoming bilingual is a different thing. It's sort
               | of weird if that was what you were talking about.
        
               | darby_nine wrote:
               | Eh it'll probably be the de-facto
               | public/professional/transactional register and people
               | will speak another language at home.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | Based on what? Again we're just throwing eventualities
               | out there with no basis in current reality.
               | 
               | People are pretty good at understanding English in
               | Norway. But the only factor that introduces English into
               | the conversation is when someone does not speak
               | Norwegian. In my experience.
               | 
               | People are extrapolating from the fact that people use
               | English-borrowed slang to these far-fetched scenarios.
               | Yeah? Slang and words have always been borrowed. Not even
               | medical doctors speak Latin to each other.
        
               | darby_nine wrote:
               | > Based on what?
               | 
               | I never expected to be taken as declaring an objective
               | fact; I just notice that this is already how workplaces
               | are shaping up. I could easily be very wrong.
               | 
               | Anyway, with the internet the understanding of proximity
               | changes. With an increasingly global economy _everyone_
               | will be closer to people they only share english with. Or
               | maybe mandarin, if you want me to emphasize skeptacism.
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | No offense, but sometimes an annoying aspects of
               | monolingual people(those without substantial second
               | language training, not just ** monolingualism
               | totaritarianists) is that sometimes the only aspect of
               | the concept of a language some of them understand is
               | _words_.
               | 
               | About 30% each of English vocabulary is to have been
               | borrowed from French. That means the phrase "it's all
               | French to me" in free standing could logically imply that
               | you _do_ have good idea of what is being said. That 's
               | obviously never the case.
               | 
               | That's because dictionary vocabulary is just an asset
               | file for a language. It's a major, but still a part of a
               | language. Integrating bunch of words into a language only
               | inflates that dataset.
               | 
               | Dinitrogen tetroxide(N2O4) is apparently called
               | "tetraoksid diazota" in Russian. Do memorizing bunch of
               | those compounds in Russian makes you fluent in that
               | language? I'd very much doubt it.
        
               | Yeul wrote:
               | Pretty much already happening across the well to do city
               | folks here in the Netherlands.
               | 
               | Ultimately you have to choose a language that everyone
               | can express themselves in and it sure as hell ain't Dutch
               | lmao.
        
               | acomjean wrote:
               | My mom was a German / English technical translator in the
               | US. At one point she said those Germans need to decide,
               | English or German. I guess the French from time to time
               | make French words for those with English roots.
               | 
               | Though the German word for cell phone, "handy" is pretty
               | great.
        
               | ethbr1 wrote:
               | The French are pretty serious about preventing linguistic
               | hegemony and fund measures to slow/prevent it.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | But the English euphemism for "handy" would sure cause
               | some confusion, and potential disappointment. Just like
               | the 'merican slang "double fisted" takes a whole other
               | meaning in the UK
        
               | em-bee wrote:
               | as a native german, speaking english fluently it drives
               | me nuts. i mean, "handy" is not even borrowed like
               | "computer" but invented by germans as a pseudo-anglicism.
        
               | retrac wrote:
               | Dutch is so close to English that at times it is almost a
               | dialect of English. "Ik zag de boot zinken." / "I saw the
               | boat sink."
               | 
               | The rest of the world can't watch English TV with
               | subtitles for a few months/years and come away with a
               | passing understanding of English. It's a much steeper
               | cliff.
               | 
               | The technical term is diglossia and it's much more common
               | when the two languages are closely related. Latin being
               | the written standard when the spoken language had evolved
               | into Old French or Old Spanish is another classic
               | example.
        
               | anthk wrote:
               | Old Spanish (12th century, El Cid as an example) was
               | closer on spelling to Latin than the 16/17th century one
               | from Don Quixote.
        
               | pseingatl wrote:
               | It happened in Ireland in the 19th century.
        
           | gwervc wrote:
           | Reminds me off all the "teikuautomoOK" (Take out is also
           | possible) mentions that flourished on restaurants in Japan
           | during covid. There was already a Japanese equivalent that
           | existed (oChi chiGui ri) but I guess that was less
           | fashionable.
        
         | wodenokoto wrote:
         | Does that mean that Disneys Mickey Mouse cartoons can't be
         | shown in Paraguay due to trade mark infringement?
        
           | yard2010 wrote:
           | I think that trademark has to go with a specific product.
           | Like there's Apple computers and the other Apple. Or is it
           | Macintosh? I can't remember
        
             | DragonStrength wrote:
             | Famously, Apple the computer company has been sued by Apple
             | the music company many times since its founding, usually
             | when Apple Inc. adds or releases new music-related
             | features.
             | 
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Compute
             | r
        
               | soco wrote:
               | probably less famously Apple the computer company sued
               | recently a 110-years old Swiss farmers association over
               | using the _image of an apple_
               | 
               | https://www.popsci.com/technology/apple-swiss-trademark/
        
               | GJim wrote:
               | The most famous in Blighty is the McDonalds fast food
               | chain trying to claim exclusive use of the "Mc" prefix!
               | 
               | Needless to say, numerous Scots and Irish food businesses
               | were not very impressed.
               | 
               | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49254551
        
               | MichaelZuo wrote:
               | This was settled in 2007?
               | 
               | With Apple the computer company giving a huge payment to
               | Apple the music company in exchange for all of their
               | trademarks.
        
               | pseingatl wrote:
               | And don't forget MacInstosh stereos and amplifiers.
        
               | smolder wrote:
               | That's actually spelled McIntosh, which is different
               | enough, I suppose.
        
           | eqvinox wrote:
           | Trademarks have categories, e.g. "grocery store", "consumer
           | electronics", etc.; that's what the GP's "also being careful
           | not to overreach its trademark categories" refers to. If they
           | tried to register the trademark for cartoons or animation,
           | they'd likely lose it under some prior preference law.
           | 
           | (I don't know that law, I have no clue about Paraguay's legal
           | system, but most trademark systems have something that allows
           | a prior/established user to kill "aggressive" trademarks. But
           | Disney is not an established grocery store, that's the crux
           | of this.)
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | My experience when involved in product naming was that
             | lawyers tend to very conservative about such things but,
             | yes, in theory if you're clearly an unrelated category you
             | can reuse an existing trademark. Historically, the purpose
             | of trademark was essentially consumer protection to avoid
             | confusion about who made something. It's actually quite
             | different from copyright in that regard.
        
             | sombragris wrote:
             | > Trademarks have categories, e.g. "grocery store",
             | "consumer electronics", etc.; that's what the GP's "also
             | being careful not to overreach its trademark categories"
             | refers to. If they tried to register the trademark for
             | cartoons or animation, they'd likely lose it under some
             | prior preference law.
             | 
             | That's indeed the case, imho.
        
       | eru wrote:
       | Classic New York Times:
       | 
       | > During a recent national holiday, the man inside the Mickey
       | mascot costume was warming up in an air-conditioned metal
       | container inside the company's factory that serves as his office.
       | 
       | > Ms. Blasco asked The New York Times to withhold Mickey's
       | identity from the Paraguayan public to preserve some of the
       | "magic" behind the mascot.
       | 
       | Seems all reasonable, until you remember the flimsy
       | justifications for their doxxing of Scott Alexander of Slate Star
       | Codex fame. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/22/nyt-is-
       | threatening-my-...
        
         | tangus wrote:
         | But they didn't doxx him. Blasco is the owner, not the man in
         | the costume.
        
       | amarant wrote:
       | Heh, when I lived in Brasil "paraguaio" (Paraguayan) was slang
       | for fake.
       | 
       | Makes the term Paraguayan Mickey (or "Mickey paraguaio" as the
       | Brasilians would call it) more interesting.
        
       | tkgally wrote:
       | The company's website:
       | 
       | https://mickey.com.py/
        
       | pseingatl wrote:
       | Panamanian Patricio Jansson won a case against Piper Aircraft and
       | levied on Piper's IP in Panama. Lots of mischief ensued.
        
       | FabHK wrote:
       | In related news: The people of Dubai don't love the Flintstones,
       | but the people of Abu Dhabi do.
        
         | selimthegrim wrote:
         | Do they love Nermal?
        
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