[HN Gopher] Lazarus Group laundered $200M from 25 crypto hacks t...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Lazarus Group laundered $200M from 25 crypto hacks to fiat
        
       Author : noch
       Score  : 260 points
       Date   : 2024-09-15 01:09 UTC (21 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (zachxbt.mirror.xyz)
 (TXT) w3m dump (zachxbt.mirror.xyz)
        
       | talldayo wrote:
       | I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the assets
       | in a poorly-accountable and liquid state - now all you need is a
       | chump to unload the bag on. Almost makes you wonder how many
       | cryptocurrency influencers are in the pocket of sanctioned
       | nations...
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | > makes you wonder how many cryptocurrency influencers are in
         | the pocket of sanctioned nations
         | 
         | That's a wild thought that hadn't occurred to me.
         | 
         | With increased KYC and tamp down, where does this money go
         | next?
        
           | zmgsabst wrote:
           | In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as
           | damage and routes around it, financial networks consider lost
           | opportunity due to regulation as damage and route around it.
           | 
           | People will assume I mean buying drugs, but actually, I mean:
           | 
           | - when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn't access
           | it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at
           | Western Union after losing my bank card; or,
           | 
           | - today, when I couldn't prepay for OpenAI platform credits
           | because I have the "wrong kind" of bank account for them.
           | 
           | Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control
           | stifling innovation and growth as damage -- and will
           | perennially route around them to get the system flourishing
           | again.
        
             | beeflet wrote:
             | >In much the same way the internet interprets censorship as
             | damage and routes around it
             | 
             | I think this is an outdated meme that has not proven very
             | true. I won't go into a full rant unless you want, but long
             | story short the architecture of the internet has turned out
             | to be more fragile than expected.
             | 
             | >Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control
             | stifling innovation and growth as damage
             | 
             | Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-societies
             | do, so yes. In this case, Lazarus group is a sub-society
             | that is parasitic to society at large.
        
               | zmgsabst wrote:
               | What do you mean?
               | 
               | The internet has successfully resisted multiple
               | government-sponsored PSYOPs and allowed the formation of
               | a revolution to fix society from its current trend
               | towards fascism, unifying the liberation movement across
               | continents -- which I would argue is working far beyond
               | expectations.
               | 
               | (Ed: I'd genuinely like to hear the rant, even as a
               | tangent.)
               | 
               | > Maybe not society as a whole, but certainly sub-
               | societies do, so yes.
               | 
               | All of society does.
               | 
               | Which is why regulation (and oppression) needs to be
               | focused to be effective: if you want to suppress Lazarus
               | group you can't catch too many strays or you build up
               | enough societal counter-pressure your regulation is
               | subverted.
        
             | tw04 wrote:
             | > when I had $10k in my US bank account but couldn't access
             | it while traveling because I ran afoul of whatever KYC at
             | Western Union after losing my bank card; or,
             | 
             | Why would you first stop be western Union if you lost your
             | bank card? Ignoring my confusion as to why you didn't have
             | a credit card handy, or a phone with a banking app handy if
             | you're well off enough to have $10k in the bank. Why would
             | your first thought be going to western union, a well known
             | haven for scammers everywhere. OF COURSE it set off all
             | sorts of red flags with your bank. I'd be more concerned if
             | they didn't put up roadblocks to someone claiming to be
             | you, in another country, trying to pull out large sums of
             | money at a western union.
        
               | zmgsabst wrote:
               | How do those things help?
               | 
               | I had both a credit card and a phone; you can't get cash
               | with NFC. I was stuck using credit card services and cut
               | off from most of the economy of the primarily cash-based
               | society I was visiting. To the extent merchants accepted
               | digital payments, it was primarily in their local banking
               | app.
               | 
               | > OF COURSE it set off all sorts of red flags with your
               | bank.
               | 
               | Do you not understand why I regard me standing at a WU
               | branch with my passport in hand and access to my
               | authenticator app on my phone, but unable to actually use
               | the service regardless, as a frustrating experience?
               | 
               | Roadblocks would have been fine: there was no road at
               | all, no matter how many checkpoints I was willing to
               | satisfy.
               | 
               | From the same bank who happily allows online transactions
               | to drain my account in obvious patterns of fraud from
               | well-known fraudsters (eg, chat.versailles) without a
               | single roadblock -- so they can harvest fees.
        
               | n_ary wrote:
               | No ATMs nearby? Usually unless you are in some severely
               | impoverished nation, ATMs should allow to withdraw(with
               | some hefty fees sometimes) some local currency.
        
               | zmgsabst wrote:
               | ATMs and banks (cash advances) supported cards and cards
               | with chips, but not NFC.
               | 
               | My physical cards were lost together -- which admittedly
               | was dumb, but losing your wallet while still having your
               | passport and phone/Apple Wallet shouldn't result in
               | "frozen out of banking".
        
             | immibis wrote:
             | OpenAI isn't the government - yet.
        
             | lottin wrote:
             | > Society views the fascistic impulses of those in control
             | stifling innovation and growth as damage
             | 
             | You think society sees financial regulations as fascistic
             | impulses that stifle innovation? Where do you get that
             | from?
        
               | zmgsabst wrote:
               | I didn't say that in what you quoted.
               | 
               | > Society views the 1:[fascistic impulses] of those in
               | control 2:[stifling innovation and growth] as damage
               | 
               | I say that people who run our societies are fascists --
               | and their impulses for control [1] then cause a stifling
               | of innovation and growth [2]. Which a five minute
               | conversation with someone that does business will
               | convince you of better than I will.
               | 
               | However, you got cause and effect reversed in your
               | reading: I said that fascists are stifling innovation
               | with regulation, not that regulations are fascistic.
               | 
               | I also carefully said lost opportunity -- because
               | regulations become routed around precisely when they
               | introduce more cost than benefit. Eg, some regulations
               | _boost_ opportunity by creating stable business
               | environments.
        
           | sanp wrote:
           | And how many VCs heavily invested in Crypto startups?
        
         | Waterluvian wrote:
         | And if any of them even realize it.
        
         | CaptainOfCoit wrote:
         | > I'd imagine it's pretty easy, too. You've already got the
         | assets in a poorly-accountable and liquid state
         | 
         | Alright, so walk me through it because I don't see how it's
         | easier to wash than other ill-gained funds like cash.
         | 
         | You robbed someone and now you sit on $200M worth of Bitcoin.
         | How you unload them so you have cash you can use, when every
         | transaction is traceable and any exchange willing to trade for
         | those amounts do KYC and follows AML?
        
           | conception wrote:
           | You run the bitcoin through mixers/online exchanges into
           | monero/zerocoin and then to wherever to get out with fiat.
        
             | artdigital wrote:
             | you still have to do the actual laundering at some point.
             | just because you have $200 million now in monero (which you
             | also need to get to first) doesn't mean you can just
             | transfer them to your bank account. exchanges will KYC you
             | for that, and you will definitely get flagged for a source
             | of wealth / source of funds check to prove where you got it
             | from
        
               | vernon99 wrote:
               | For $200m yes, but you'd be really stupid trying to do it
               | all at once. Small amounts, multiple accounts, gradually
               | over time.
        
               | bitcoinmoney wrote:
               | It's really easy. Use casinos in 3rd world countries to
               | certify your money as gambling winnings. There must be
               | underground network for this. So it looks like you're
               | gambling and you got lucky. Very dangerous though. I
               | heard that they charge 13% total fee. You come in at 5M$.
               | You play for 1 week.. Leave with 160M or something. Bring
               | that cash into the bank and deposit it.
        
               | Loughla wrote:
               | How to turn monero or Bitcoin into cash, I think is the
               | hardest part.
               | 
               | Laundering it after that is, in fact, easier.
               | 
               | But the first problem still isn't solved with your
               | statement I think.
        
               | snypox wrote:
               | Aren't you supposed to show proofs of winning 160m when
               | depositing into a bank? Even for just a few millions?
        
               | immibis wrote:
               | And a shady third world casino will happily provide that
               | proof document in return for a 13% cut of your winnings.
        
               | snypox wrote:
               | I still think you'd get under an investigation (at least
               | from the tax authorities, but I can imagine police too)
               | after years of years consistently depositing millions of
               | wins in your bank account.
        
               | n_ary wrote:
               | I do not think shady people put their loot in bank. Most
               | illicit activities and tax avoiding folks rely heavily on
               | cash or other expensive exchangeable
               | goods(rolex/jewellery/gems/gold bars/gold watches etc).
        
           | SpicyLemonZest wrote:
           | It's easier because mainstream cryptocurrency services
           | support money laundering for privacy reasons, and will
           | happily process withdrawals from known money laundering
           | services like Tornado Cash until OFAC orders them to stop.
           | Even if you trust that they're doing an honest inquiry into
           | the source of large amounts - and I do not - they can't
           | _know_ that an arbitrary mixer output didn 't come from
           | casino winnings or Ethereum mining in the early days.
        
           | wmf wrote:
           | _any exchange willing to trade for those amounts do KYC and
           | follows AML_
           | 
           | This is not true AFAIK and it used to really be not true.
           | There were plenty of no-KYC exchanges or exchanges that
           | offered no-KYC accounts if you had the right connections.
        
             | CaptainOfCoit wrote:
             | > This is not true AFAIK
             | 
             | Tell me one big exchange that'll accept a deposit of $200M
             | USD worth of cryptocurrency without asking questions.
             | 
             | > exchanges that offered no-KYC accounts if you had the
             | right connections
             | 
             | Yeah, and plenty of taxmen that will let you wash money if
             | you pay them X amount, but lets try to stick to verifiable
             | facts instead of imagining/assuming a bunch of things.
        
           | yieldcrv wrote:
           | with clean funds launch a new token and create a liquidity
           | pool on uniswap
           | 
           | with another set of clean funds in a second address you buy
           | that token in the liquidity pool
           | 
           | with the dirty funds in the third address you also buy the
           | token and dont stop buying, you use all the dirty funds
           | 
           | the second address sells, and you just are another lucky
           | crypto trader with another 10,000% gain, indistinguishable
           | from any other crypto that's mooned that much. You, along
           | with all the bots and copy traders and momentum buyers. Just
           | sell into liquidity, withdraw the more liquid crypto on
           | exchanges. Pay taxes.
        
             | yieldcrv wrote:
             | If you do this, the dirty funds need to connect to a
             | different RPC server than your clean funds
             | 
             | dont use infura or a node in a data center on the same IP
             | address
             | 
             | if youre not using your own node on your own network, you
             | need to mask your IP address and think about who knows it.
             | Tor works better than VPN for this
        
             | CaptainOfCoit wrote:
             | If you think modern chain analysis can't look through those
             | simple schemes, I'm happy the ecosystem seems more naive
             | than I thought :)
             | 
             | Oh well, easier for criminals to get caught I suppose, so
             | not much harm done.
        
               | yieldcrv wrote:
               | All the indictments I've seen involve basically zero
               | OPSEC while all the others go unindicted
               | 
               | Its not about the chain analysis, its about proof. Any
               | random charting site will raise flags about the token
               | buyers, but can the prosecutor use that? The cases arent
               | being brought
        
           | helsinkiandrew wrote:
           | > any exchange willing to trade for those amounts do KYC and
           | follows AML?
           | 
           | Binance paid U.S. regulators a $4.3 billion for violating
           | U.S. anti-money laundering laws a year ago. There are many
           | crypto exchanges that have poor KYC or deliberately do it in
           | a way that can be circumvented - Bitzlato was one example. I
           | imagine if you have some dirty Bitcoin you can find an
           | exchange today running in a non extraditable jurisdiction
           | that will trade it for cash for cut.
           | 
           | https://www.reuters.com/technology/co-founder-seized-
           | crypto-...
        
         | kotaKat wrote:
         | That's what the influx of shitty NFTs and "tokens" and "chains"
         | are that keep coming up in Twitter ads these days. Criminals
         | just building shitty bags to rip off dumb people while they
         | launder away the profit underneath it.
        
       | paulpauper wrote:
       | many of these services do not exist anymore (chip mixer) or
       | increased security (sanctions on Tornado cash, more KYC, better
       | chain analysis).
        
         | aaronbrethorst wrote:
         | KYC
         | 
         | Know Your Customer, for anyone else unfamiliar with the
         | acronym.
        
           | FabHK wrote:
           | And:
           | 
           | ABC - Anti Bribery & Corruption
           | 
           | AML - Anti Money Laundering
           | 
           | CTF - Counter Terrorism Financing
           | 
           | FATF - Financial Action Task Force
        
           | consumerx wrote:
           | KYCing should be illegal.
        
             | iamacyborg wrote:
             | You're going to have to try make a case for that one.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | Because "Know your customer" is the government creating a
               | plausible deniability shield for discriminating against a
               | person or group of people.
               | 
               | It should be the government's job to prosecute criminals
               | by proving they commit crimes, which allow the accused to
               | defend themselves in court, which hopefully results in
               | less corruption.
               | 
               | With KYC, the intent is to not allow the accused a chance
               | of defending themselves. It is a way to deny people
               | rights without the costly hassle of going to court.
        
               | manquer wrote:
               | Is there evidence of discrimination ? Are banks rejecting
               | services because of age/race/gender/ethnicity etc ?
               | 
               | KYC to reject basis legality of the source seems an
               | acceptable tradeoff to live in a civilized society?
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | Age/race/gender/ethnicity and other legally defined
               | protected classes are not the only possible instances of
               | discrimination. An example is a person sending money to
               | family in a country where there is less rule of law and
               | they get suspected of terrorism (regardless of firm
               | evidence), or someone selling sex services that gets
               | dropped because a bank does not want to deal with them.
               | Or it could just be errors in the programs and people
               | flagging accounts and transactions.
               | 
               | Electronic money transfer is a vital function of modern
               | life. It should be a constitutionally protected,
               | inalienable right, even for anyone convicted of crimes,
               | just like criminals are still housed and fed.
        
       | shrubble wrote:
       | Note that this has nothing to do with the FreePascal/Lazarus
       | project...
        
         | zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
         | Doesn't have anything to do with the guy in the bible either.
        
       | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
       | This is impressive analysis, but have I overlooked the laundering
       | part? Money laundering is providing an explanation about why it
       | is clean, not hiding the reason that it might be dirty.
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Most of the crypto world operates on "assumed clean"
         | (blacklist) thinking so you don't have to fully clean anything.
        
           | yieldcrv wrote:
           | and when the crypto passes through a government's address it
           | magically becomes clean :))
           | 
           | so the whole blacklist concept is dumb because the same funds
           | have to be reset, but the old chains of transactions are
           | still being passed around as if its a "gotcha" but theyre
           | really irrelevant quickly and reintegrated back into the
           | economy quickly
        
             | SpicyLemonZest wrote:
             | I don't see what's dumb about it. It seems like
             | blacklisting is the digital equivalent of "I don't want to
             | do business with criminals" - I wouldn't knowingly buy
             | anything from a thief, or from a store that knows some of
             | its suppliers are thieves. If law enforcement has seized
             | the property and auctioned it, then the criminals aren't
             | profiting, so I don't mind.
        
               | usrusr wrote:
               | If you don't want to do business with criminals, don't
               | buy crime futures. Because that's essentially what crypto
               | are (unless not held and only purchased on demand for
               | whatever oddball transaction you'd want to do that's
               | neither speculation nor directly related to crime):
               | demand outside of pure speculation (which is certainly by
               | far the biggest part) must be completely dominated by
               | demand for paying ransoms, purchasing illegal substances
               | and so on.
               | 
               | Even if "your" tokens are perfectly clean, straight from
               | an artisanal miner running their rig purely on solar
               | surplus or something like that, their _value_ still
               | derives almost exclusively from crime use cases, hidden
               | behind no matter how many layers of zero-sum speculation.
        
               | night862 wrote:
               | That is totally absurd.
        
               | dist-epoch wrote:
               | > demand outside of pure speculation (which is certainly
               | by far the biggest part)
               | 
               | > their value still derives almost exclusively from crime
               | use cases
               | 
               | you contradict your self in your own post
        
               | ClumsyPilot wrote:
               | > business with criminals, don't buy crime futures
               | 
               | Is your Crime same as my Crime?
               | 
               | Suppose I am a software developer living in Russia and I
               | don't want to pay taxes to a government that commits war
               | crimes, is that a crime? Should a western bank be
               | preventing that?
               | 
               | Suppose you were protesting in a dictatorship, and as a
               | result your assets were seized, you have a criminal
               | record, maybe you are collecting donations, should I as a
               | western bank act to stop that 'crime'?
               | 
               | Even simpler if you want to buy some weed, it's a crime
               | in country A but not in country B. Suppose so live in
               | Country B, should I be concerned?
        
               | acdha wrote:
               | > Suppose I am a software developer living in Russia and
               | I don't want to pay taxes to a government that commits
               | war crimes, is that a crime? Should a western bank be
               | preventing that?
               | 
               | Yes, because that activity cannot be distinguished from
               | thd Russian government evading financial sanctions. It
               | sucks for the innocent party but there are many victims
               | of their government with more serious grievances.
               | 
               | > Suppose you were protesting in a dictatorship, and as a
               | result your assets were seized, you have a criminal
               | record, maybe you are collecting donations, should I as a
               | western bank act to stop that 'crime'?
               | 
               | This has the same problem plus the gross negligence of
               | advising anyone living under a repressive government to
               | use a financial system designed to leave an immutable
               | trail for the police to use when prosecuting them and
               | everyone they know. The full retroactive deanonymization
               | is incredibly dangerous for dissidents since it allows
               | the authorities to prosecute them for transactions they
               | made even before they were suspected of anything.
        
               | ClumsyPilot wrote:
               | > Yes, because that activity cannot be distinguished from
               | thd Russian government evading financial sanctions.
               | 
               | I am not sure this is true, but regardless I was going
               | for a moral angle - the question was basically: Suppose a
               | western bank was 100% certain that it was not Russian
               | government avoiding sanctions, would that still apply?
        
               | yieldcrv wrote:
               | The point is that when a government seizes crypto funds
               | and auctions them off again, the funds are clean for
               | legal purposes but transaction history doesn't change, it
               | just has an additional transaction.
               | 
               | Software that flags aspects of transaction is nullified
               | by the reality that it doesn't actually know that one
               | subsequent transaction cleaned the whole trail. There are
               | hundreds of thousands of governments around the world
               | when factoring in municipal authorities, even governments
               | you don't respect are cleaning funds in the eyes of
               | governments you do respect. In the eyes of the
               | requirements of exchanges that have these automated chain
               | analysis practices. Right now, only a handful of
               | governments do crypto investigations and seizures, but as
               | this increases it only moves towards the nullifying chain
               | analysis, as many funds will be comingled with a flagged
               | transaction but unknown to the software about how these
               | funds have been washed by a nation state's blessings.
        
           | phyalow wrote:
           | To be fair so does most of the traditional banking system.
        
             | delusional wrote:
             | This was the case maybe 20 years ago, but modern anti money
             | laundering has moved the needle significantly in recent
             | years. Where I live there are now rather strict limits on
             | what consumers can do without subjugating themselves to
             | what's called "Due-diligence". Which is in fact about NOT
             | assuming cleanliness. Know You Customer is all about not
             | blindly assuming your counterparty is honest.
        
               | jorvi wrote:
               | Yup. This also why people should only use fintech banks
               | (Revolut, N26, Bunq, etc) as a checking account and
               | should keep the bulk of their money elsewhere.
               | 
               | Because of the relatively low-friction signup process,
               | fintech banks are extremely trigger happy with account
               | locks, and at that point you have to go through their
               | permanently-overloaded customer service to get your money
               | transferred to another bank, a process that might take
               | months if you're unlucky.
        
               | manquer wrote:
               | Also don't keep money that that you cannot afford to miss
               | in fintech because they are not banks at all.
               | 
               | The FDIC insured bank which actually has money when using
               | these apps is somewhere in the backend and you get stuff
               | like the synapse bankruptcy[1]
               | 
               | [1] https://apnews.com/article/synapse-evolve-bank-
               | fintech-accou...
        
             | calpaterson wrote:
             | The financial system runs on a soft-whitelist system with
             | extra checking and a shadow banning system.
             | 
             | This is why everyone is always asking everyone to
             | demonstrate the sources of funds in finance.
             | 
             | Obviously it is not 100% effective, but it is somewhat
             | effective. You cannot just jog in from Iran and enroll as a
             | JP Morgan client
        
               | CaptainOfCoit wrote:
               | > soft-whitelist system
               | 
               | A whitelist/allowlist is a system that defaults to
               | rejecting everything, but allow someone to override that
               | rejection.
               | 
               | A blacklist/denylist is a system that defaults to
               | allowing everything, but can on-demand block/deny
               | something.
               | 
               | Banking system for individuals today mostly have a
               | blacklist/denylist for the common use case. Walk into a
               | bank and ask to open an account, and they'll most likely
               | allow you.
               | 
               | If you manage to trip up any alerts (big deposits for
               | example), they'll ask you for more info, citing KYC/AML
               | for the reason why.
               | 
               | > This is why everyone is always asking everyone to
               | demonstrate the sources of funds in finance.
               | 
               | This usually happen after the funds have touched some
               | account you own, hence it's a blacklist system. A
               | whitelist system wouldn't allow you to deposit those
               | funds until after you got verified somehow.
        
       | walterbell wrote:
       | US/Canada 2024, $3 billion in fines by US regulators,
       | https://rupakghose.substack.com/p/td-banks-aml-issues-and-fi...
       | 
       |  _> DoJ investigation found.. [banking] business had been used to
       | launder more than $650m between 2016 and 2021 from US fentanyl
       | sales for Chinese crime groups and drug traffickers._
       | 
       | Canada 2018, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33918115
       | 
       |  _> An estimated $5.3 billion of laundered money into B.C. real
       | estate in 2018 hiked housing prices 5 per cent, two special
       | reports released Thursday by the provincial government show._
       | 
       | Australia 2015, https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2015/06/stop-
       | money-launderi...
       | 
       |  _> Credit Suisse estimates some $28 billion of Chinese money has
       | been invested in the Australian housing market over the past six
       | years_
        
         | mulmen wrote:
         | Is there any reason to believe the Australian investment is
         | related to money laundering or drug sales?
        
           | averageRoyalty wrote:
           | No. The linked article admits they're wildly guessing and
           | links to another report with recommendations but no numbers I
           | saw from a skim. I hear this repeated regularly on HN but am
           | yet to see a reliable source beyond "but it's Chinese money".
        
           | shakna wrote:
           | The FATF report goes into it in more detail [0], but to put
           | it very simply - Australia doesn't have the protections it
           | should, when it comes to money laundering.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-
           | gafi/mer/Mutual-E...
        
           | phyalow wrote:
           | In my empirical experience, its more to do with stashing the
           | proceeds of state capture by politically connected
           | individuals in China.
        
         | __turbobrew__ wrote:
         | Another reason why we should only allow Canadian nationals to
         | own real estate in Canada.
        
           | ClumsyPilot wrote:
           | What about shell companies? Corporations are people too!
        
             | yunohn wrote:
             | Governments will never remove that - it's a super important
             | construct to allow everyone except the average citizens to
             | avoid all sorts of taxes.
        
             | givemeethekeys wrote:
             | Thats an easy fix: Only Canadian shell companies can own
             | real estate in Canada! =)
        
           | pjkundert wrote:
           | Or, you know... build more houses.
           | 
           | We could drop _western Europe_ into central BC  / Alberta/
           | Sask. / Manitoba _and not notice_.
           | 
           | Or, we could destroy our small builders, import millions of
           | immigrants incapable of construction / trade work, inflate
           | asset prices, pay for their housing with government grants,
           | lie about CPI inflation, and fix it all if we just...
           | 
           | "only allow Canadian nationals to own real estate"?
        
         | endgame wrote:
         | > Australia
         | 
         | Don't worry, Australia's going to fix that! By making "harming
         | public confidence in the banking system or financial markets"
         | "serious harm" under the upcoming Communications Legislation
         | Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill
         | 2024.
         | 
         | And by "fix", I mean "suppress discussion about", of course.
        
           | CoastalCoder wrote:
           | There's no shortage of things to complain about regarding the
           | U.S., but its First Amendment is pretty great IMHO.
        
             | tryauuum wrote:
             | I wanted to comment that any country has something about
             | freedom of speech in their constitution, the problem is
             | usually that the government doesn't respect its own law.
             | 
             | But when I went to compare american and russian
             | constitutions and if you only judge the text, the us is
             | worded better. In russian it's simply "freedom of speech is
             | guaranteed to anyone" while in the us it's more specific
             | about not creating new laws harming freedom of speech.
        
               | walterbell wrote:
               | _> not creating new laws harming freedom of speech_
               | 
               | Tests are helpful, when writing rules. US freedom of
               | speech has been influenced by law on asymmetry of
               | economic resources in groups vs. individuals [2010],
               | allowing state propaganda in domestic media [2012], and
               | gov-corp coordination of social media moderation [2024].
               | 
               | [2010]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_(orga
               | nization) [2012]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith%E2%80
               | %93Mundt_Act
               | [2024]https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/justices-side-
               | with-biden-...
        
               | amy-petrik-214 wrote:
               | It was once said by a famous african dictator:
               | 
               | "There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee
               | freedom after speech."
               | 
               | -- Forest Whitaker
               | 
               | So maybe it is like this. It's a funny thing to say,
               | because in this mindset there is freedom literally to do
               | anything. Consequences come after, minutes, hours, days,
               | years, but after and not before, at least not until
               | OpenAI-Google's new "PrescientCrimeCAItcher" comes
               | online.
               | 
               | These "community guidelines" are quite frustrating
               | because a major communication modality presently does not
               | have freedom of speech, it has removal of speech it does
               | not like. So that's an interesting loophole legalese-
               | wise. Presently these are private sector companies
               | running addicting entertaining boards from which they
               | serve ads for profit. If these are instead made to be
               | "utilities" like power or water, utilities of
               | communication, I would imagine the calculus would change
        
           | loceng wrote:
           | Can't have malinformation that may make the so-called King(s)
           | look bad..
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | > DoJ investigation found.. [banking] business had been used to
         | launder more than $650m between 2016 and 2021 from US fentanyl
         | sales for Chinese crime groups and drug traffickers.
         | 
         | According to the official CIA "world factbook" or whatever that
         | is called: an estimated 3% to 5% of the world's _fucking entire
         | GDP_ is linked to criminal activities.
         | 
         | Blockchains are cool in that they allow to follow the
         | laundering (so it allows for nice blog entries with good
         | looking graphs, which I do appreciate), as opposed to
         | traditional banks where it's all opaque.
         | 
         | But the amount of money laundered using cryptocurrencies is a
         | drop in the bucket compared to size of criminal activities
         | ongoing in the world (btw criminal activities predates
         | blockchain by centuries or millenia).
         | 
         | And don't get me started on the missing billions when "aid" is
         | sent to this and that country. Be it Ukraine or Haiti or
         | whatever: there are corrupt officials and individuals at every
         | single step of the ladder.
         | 
         | My favorite is the US loading a 747 with 12 billions in bills
         | of $100 USD to "help the reconstruction of Iraq" and officially
         | 9 billions of those 12 billions have been "lost".
         | 
         | Yup. Lost. That's official stuff.
         | 
         | So the $200m of the Lazarus group, compared to $9 _billion_ in
         | $100 USD bills: cry me a river.
        
           | SapporoChris wrote:
           | Do you have a source for 'My favorite is the US loading a 747
           | with 12 billions in bills of $100 USD to "help the
           | reconstruction of Iraq" and officially 9 billions of those 12
           | billions have been "lost".'
           | 
           | Your numbers seem a bit off, but it is definitely an
           | outrageous incident.
           | 
           | https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-jun-13-la-fg-
           | mi...
           | 
           | "This month, the Pentagon and the Iraqi government are
           | finally closing the books on the program that handled all
           | those Benjamins. But despite years of audits and
           | investigations, U.S. Defense officials still cannot say what
           | happened to $6.6 billion in cash -- enough to run the Los
           | Angeles Unified School District or the Chicago Public Schools
           | for a year, among many other things."
        
           | csomar wrote:
           | > So the $200m of the Lazarus group, compared to $9 billion
           | in $100 USD bills: cry me a river.
           | 
           | I don't think the US cares about a $200m, whatever that $200m
           | belong to. Their issue is that this money is enabling a
           | regime they want to see inert (since the nuclear shield means
           | that the DPRK is not going anywhere anytime soon).
        
           | lifeisstillgood wrote:
           | I always assumed that bitcoin was propped up by purchases
           | from money laundering - so that the total value of bitcoins
           | more or less equalled the 3-5% of global GDP that is illegal
           | / laundered etc.
           | 
           | Once upon a time when I looked at it the numbers seemed to
           | stack up - everyone and their dog just used crypto as one
           | stage in the laundering cycle is the assumption
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | Why would you do that? Unless your I'll gotten gains are
             | natively already crypto (bitcoin ransomware) adding crypto
             | to the process just makes it way more difficult and
             | traceable. Massive financial machines well integrated into
             | the world banking and political structures already launders
             | money just fine on its own in truely massive quantities.
        
         | loceng wrote:
         | BOOK TO READ: Wilful Blindness: How a network of narcos,
         | tycoons and CCP agents infiltrated the West by Sam Cooper - an
         | investigative Canadian journalist, to get a deep dive into how
         | long this has been going on.
         | 
         | This current government in power [9 years now; the Trudeau
         | Liberal-NDP majority voting power coalition] has done nothing
         | but to allow rampant fraud including this to continue; Trudeau
         | himself on video has stated he admires China's basic
         | dictatorship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8FuHuUhNZ0
        
         | AnthonyMouse wrote:
         | The problem with "money laundering" is that its theory and its
         | operation are the inverse of one another.
         | 
         | The theory is supposed to be that you make it illegal to
         | conceal the source of money that is the proceeds of a crime, so
         | you can prosecute criminals for money laundering even if you
         | couldn't prove the original crime. Which, to begin with, is
         | pretty sus. Basically an attempt to end run around the
         | government satisfying its burden of proof for the underlying
         | crime.
         | 
         | But that also doesn't work. The criminals just set up a
         | legitimate business as a front, claim the money came from there
         | and the only way to prove otherwise is to uncover the original
         | crime. So in practice money laundering is overwhelmingly
         | charged in one of two cases.
         | 
         | One, they already proved the original crime and tack on a money
         | laundering charge which is pointlessly redundant because those
         | criminals were already caught. Two, you get some innocent
         | people who -- unlike career criminals -- don't understand how
         | money laundering laws work, so even though they were doing
         | nothing wrong, they do something which is technically money
         | laundering (because the rules criminalize innocuous and common
         | behavior), or trigger the false positive AI nonsense, and then
         | get charged with money laundering or booted out of the banking
         | system.
         | 
         | Meanwhile large criminal organizations know how to make their
         | transactions look like innocent transactions and then the
         | government yells at banks for not catching them, even though
         | the banks have no real way to do that because the criminal
         | organizations made their transactions look like innocent
         | transactions.
         | 
         | This is a dumb law that does more harm than good. Just get rid
         | of it and charge the criminals with their actual crimes.
        
       | smashah wrote:
       | This is probably related to Kim Jong Un's new Maybach GLS
        
         | qingcharles wrote:
         | I had to look that up.. damn, right in their faces:
         | 
         | https://www.nknews.org/2024/08/kim-jong-un-flaunts-new-200k-...
        
       | TechDebtDevin wrote:
       | How hope ZachXBT gets paid well for all his effort in catching
       | scammers. Not sure how he eearns.
        
         | w_TF wrote:
         | he has been paid pretty handsomely from various grants and
         | individuals
        
       | pton_xd wrote:
       | Our own banks commit 10x more fraud than that. See TD Bank money
       | laundering case ongoing, could reach $4 billion in fines. Wells
       | Fargo $3 billion in fines for fraudulent charges on fake
       | accounts. JPMorgan Chase $1 bil settlement for UST and precious
       | metal futures fraud.
       | 
       | And those are just the ones I can remember from the last few
       | years.
        
         | greesil wrote:
         | What about
        
         | hanniabu wrote:
         | Sad to see this getting downvoted. HNers hate to admit this
         | because then they can't paint crypto has a technology enabling
         | fraud.
        
         | manquer wrote:
         | Our banks don't work with Iranians or North Koreans , with
         | crypto it is also about who not how much
        
           | pjkundert wrote:
           | "don't work with ..."
           | 
           | You seem strangely certain of that.
           | 
           | It is unlikely that you should be.
        
       | mattmaroon wrote:
       | Serious question, if the United States decided to unilaterally
       | cut North Korea off from the Internet, how hard would that be to
       | do? Could we just knock out a few cables?
       | 
       | North Korea pretty much only uses the Internet for scams Or to
       | make money in violation of sanctions. They certainly don't allow
       | their citizens to use it for anything else, and they don't allow
       | their citizens to leave the country because they would never come
       | back.
       | 
       | Even if it were only temporary, suddenly cutting off the Internet
       | to the country would expose all of those remote workers to the
       | people who employ them and don't realize they are employing North
       | Koreans when they all disappear at once.
       | 
       | Is this just not logistically feasible? or are we just too afraid
       | it would be unpalatable to our allies? I can't be the first
       | person who has thought of this.
        
         | throwup238 wrote:
         | Most of North Korea's traffic is routed through China so it'd
         | require cutting the latter off from the internet. With the
         | amount of submarine cables connecting China to other countries,
         | it wouldn't be very feasible.
        
         | w-ll wrote:
         | You think they are doing this from NK ip blocks/asn? Their
         | physical links are more or less enemy of enemy with US, so they
         | have no incentive to block. Its impossible to keep them off the
         | internet.
        
           | mattmaroon wrote:
           | Oh I'm not imagine anyone helping us. Im wondering why we
           | aren't cutting undersea cables or drone bombing land based
           | ones.
           | 
           | All the "international sovereignty" responses are humorous to
           | anyone whose paid attention to the last twenty years of the
           | American military.
        
             | brap wrote:
             | Because China really wouldn't like it, and that's all there
             | is to it.
             | 
             | Is it technically feasible? Yes.
        
             | ClumsyPilot wrote:
             | > drone bombing land based ones
             | 
             | How do you imagine that a drone will be able to find and
             | damage an underground cable?
             | 
             | This is not Afghanistan, a drone will not live long past
             | China's/Russia's air defences.
        
               | mattmaroon wrote:
               | I imagine pretty easily. They likely don't have to find
               | it, nothing gets dug in North Korea without US watching
               | it via satellite. Chinas air defenses likely don't exist
               | in North Korea.
               | 
               | I have no doubt the US has plans to cut them (and
               | probably anyone else you can imagine) off in the event of
               | war.
        
             | gosub100 wrote:
             | It's probably of higher intelligence value to let them
             | connect and intercept everything than it is to cut them off
             | and not know what's going on. If you look at their border
             | with China, it's only tens of meters from fairly populated
             | areas, so setting up high bandwidth microwave links
             | wouldn't be hard. Also bombing a sovereign nation is an act
             | of war and comes with consequences.
        
         | Dalewyn wrote:
         | First consider that the internet was designed to withstand and
         | endure attacks upon it. So long as at least one connection
         | remains, the nodes thereof remain accessible.
         | 
         | Next, consider that the authority of US sovereignty ends at US
         | borders. The US legally cannot unilaterally do anything to
         | anything outside of its own borders.
         | 
         | Next, consider that both North Korea and more importantly China
         | have no damns to give about what the US wants.
         | 
         | Next, consider the first point again. Any actions made
         | domestically can and likely will be circumvented by people who
         | do not agree with them. An obvious example is people running
         | their own DNS servers configured in defiance of US government
         | orders.
         | 
         | So to answer your question:
         | 
         | Is it legally feasible? No.
         | 
         | Is it politically feasible? No.
         | 
         | Is it logistically feasible? No.
         | 
         | Is it physically feasible? No.
         | 
         | Is it good that this isn't feasible? Yes.
        
           | ToucanLoucan wrote:
           | > First consider that the internet was designed to withstand
           | and endure attacks upon it. So long as at least one
           | connection remains, the nodes thereof remain accessible.
           | 
           | Tell me you haven't worked in network infrastructure without
           | telling me you haven't worked in network infrastructure.
           | 
           | > Next, consider that the authority of US sovereignty ends at
           | US borders. The US legally cannot unilaterally do anything to
           | anything outside of its own borders.
           | 
           | I mean, sure, officially, when all laws are followed and in a
           | friction-less plane this is correct. However the United
           | States does all kinds of shit unilaterally outside it's own
           | borders, literally all the time, not the least of which every
           | war we've been in post WWII, and incalculable numbers of
           | other tom-fuckery carried out on all levels of secrecy and
           | non-secrecy by all manner of organizations identified by
           | three letters, most commonly the CIA.
        
             | Dalewyn wrote:
             | >Tell me you haven't worked in network infrastructure
             | without telling me you haven't worked in network
             | infrastructure.
             | 
             | Am I wrong, though?
             | 
             | >I mean, sure, officially, when all laws are followed and
             | in a friction-less plane this is correct. However the
             | United States does all kinds of shit unilaterally outside
             | it's own borders, literally all the time,
             | 
             | You can just say we went and blew up Nordstream, you know.
        
               | jen729w wrote:
               | > Am I wrong, though?
               | 
               | Yeah. Congestion makes a single-node Internet unusable.
        
             | mattmaroon wrote:
             | Yeah we've been drone bombing other countries, even ones
             | we're not at war at, for 20 years. If most Americans Google
             | which countries we have troops in they'll be shocked to
             | find we're invading countries they don't know about.
             | 
             | There are some good reasons people have given here why we
             | aren't doing it, as I suspected, but I'm sure borders
             | aren't on the list.
        
         | appendix-rock wrote:
         | Only an American would ever entertain this idea without being
         | at least a bit tongue in cheek about it. The US doesn't own the
         | Internet.
        
           | gorgoiler wrote:
           | Out of interest I looked up who controls the DNS root
           | servers:
           | 
           | Europe (2): RIPE and Netnod AB. RIPE is Europe's RIR, run as
           | a conference by European ISPs. Netnod is a Swedish ISP.
           | 
           | Asia (1): Project WIDE, part of the Tokyo Institute of
           | Technology.
           | 
           | US (9): Verisign, Cogent, NASA, US Department of Defense, US
           | Army, the University of Maryland, ISC (as in the Bind9
           | people), ICANN itself, and the University of Southern
           | California.
           | 
           | The last two seem to have some overlap and there is probably
           | a lot of overlap between all of these organisations.
           | 
           | Verisign runs two root servers which is why the list has
           | twelve entries but the root servers run from A to M.
        
             | a_dabbler wrote:
             | DNS != The internet. You can still use the internet without
             | access to the DNS root servers
        
               | seydor wrote:
               | You could also run the internet on smoke signals but
               | nobody does it
        
               | a_dabbler wrote:
               | If you think losing DNS root servers means that NK would
               | have to use smoke signals then I think you don't
               | understand how the internet works frankly. If you blocked
               | your own computers access to the DNS root servers right
               | now you probably wouldn't even notice the difference
        
               | jnordwick wrote:
               | smoke signals is a non-standard extension. however over
               | avian carrier has its own rfc and is entirely legit:
               | 
               | https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2549.html
        
               | c0balt wrote:
               | +1, One cab likely also presume that especially DNS at
               | the root level is already handled locally for NK. They
               | reportedly have their own intranet so presumably they
               | also have common services like DNS hosted their.
        
               | factormeta wrote:
               | just edit /etc/hosts or run your own bind, and point dns
               | to 127.0.0.1, no DNS root server needed!
        
             | qingcharles wrote:
             | It would be very easy to run without DNS. Just have someone
             | bring a decent sized chunk of the world's DNS entries into
             | the country in a diplomatic pouch every month.
        
           | idiotsecant wrote:
           | The US owns the world, the same way any big empire does.
           | Exersice of soft power when it works, and violently explosive
           | power when it doesn't. Power flows from the barrel of a gun,
           | not from who owns some DNS servers.
        
             | hash9 wrote:
             | When was the last time they used that "explosive power" to
             | good effect? They got humiliated in Afghanistan and Russia
             | isn't even scared to act out any more. The only people who
             | think America still rules the world is it's delusional
             | populace.
        
               | bn-l wrote:
               | Both conflicts were about punishment and troop training,
               | and they achieved that. If they wanted to they could have
               | razed every square km with conventional weapons alone.
        
               | churchill wrote:
               | Americans keep saying this and it makes me laugh every
               | time, because you didn't learn anything from Vietnam.
               | 
               | Just like in Vietnam, the stated goal was to replace the
               | government - in this case, to remove the Taliban - that's
               | why you created the Afghan National Army and their flimsy
               | democracy. All told, the US has spent $8 trillion and
               | several thousand young men on the GWOT. Once the US
               | pulled out, the Taliban strolled back into Kabul.
               | 
               | $8 trillion will reduce the US debt by 25%, or pay off
               | all student debt, or build 80 million $100k homes.
               | Wasted, and the only thing you have to show for it is
               | nothing tangible, except more vibrant terror groups, and
               | immigrants flooding Europe. Meanwhile, 8k US veterans die
               | by suicide yearly.
               | 
               | You had the firepower but failed to achieve your
               | political goals. Just like in Vietnam, Iran, Syria, Laos,
               | Cambodia, and more countries than I care to mention.
               | While ruining the lives of innocent millions, of course.
               | 
               | So, you failed. Admitting it might be hard, but it will
               | bring the US to a place of humility and help you avoid
               | adventures like this going forward.
               | 
               | And to be pedantic, no you can't raze every sq. km of
               | 652,860 km2. Assuming, even just 1000 tons of explosives
               | per km2, that's nearly 700 million tons of explosives. At
               | $30k a ton, you'd be spending $21 trillion on enough
               | explosives.
        
               | jb1991 wrote:
               | > and immigrants flooding Europe
               | 
               | You are blaming the US for that?
        
               | churchill wrote:
               | Yes, for destabilizing Libya and Syria. Those millions of
               | Syrian immigrants that suddenly started flooding Europe
               | had been living contently in their homeland. What changed
               | starting in 2014? Gaddafi was a major force in stemming
               | illegal immigration through the Sahara. What changed in
               | Libya in 2011?
        
               | petre wrote:
               | The US hasn't destabilized Mexico, Guatemala and El
               | Salvador, yet they get migrants from those countries. And
               | Gaddafi also got screwed by Szarkozy and Tony Blair. The
               | US probably had other plans which didn't quite work out
               | as intended.
        
               | churchill wrote:
               | Hah! The US has a long and shameful history of meddling
               | in Latin America: coups, outright invasions (Panama,
               | Grenada, Nicaragua, Honduras, etc.) and overthrows or
               | assassinations of democratically-elected leaders
               | considered leftist.
               | 
               | Arbenz in Guatemala, Allende in Chile, etc.
               | 
               | Haiti: Historian Hans Schmidt notes that, "US Navy ships
               | visited Haitian ports to 'protect American lives and
               | property' in 1857, 1859, 1868, 1869, 1876, 1888, 1889,
               | 1892, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909,
               | 1911, 1912, and 1913. Finally, tired of all those round
               | trips, the U.S. occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934."
               | 
               | Among others, in the 1980s, a Guatemalan military that
               | received U.S. support carried out scorched earth
               | campaigns that massacred upwards of 200,000 mostly
               | indigenous people [1].
               | 
               | And that's before you count all the other American-
               | trained and armed military juntas that systematically
               | murdered, tortured, and raped millions of dissidents
               | "leftists" with Uncle Sam's blessing.
               | 
               | Wikipedia has an entire page on it: go take a look. [2]
               | 
               | [1] https://repmcgovern.medium.com/decades-of-us-
               | intervention-ha.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uni
               | ted_States_involvement_in_r...
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | > They got humiliated in Afghanistan
               | 
               | We gave up and left for political reasons. Any
               | humiliation was self-inflicted.
        
         | averageRoyalty wrote:
         | The land of democracy, ladies and gentlemen. Rights for us,
         | nobody else.
        
           | churchill wrote:
           | Funny thing about American meddling is that it always comes
           | back to bite the US in the ass. The War of Terror has cost $8
           | trillion and there's nothing tangible and lasting the US has
           | to show for it. Groups like Al Qaeda, ISIS (esp. their
           | networks across Libya, Iraq, etc.) are offshoots of American
           | meddling in the region, growing healthily despite everything.
           | 
           | Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iran (now a rabid enemy), Iraq, Syria,
           | and Libya, are all failures of that World Police ethos that
           | the US refuses to disengage from.
        
             | tazu wrote:
             | The American way is creating problems and selling
             | solutions.
        
               | churchill wrote:
               | They're not really selling solutions if it still costs
               | them at the end. For the most part, US foreign policy is
               | a net negative for America's pockets and many of their
               | "allies."
        
               | csomar wrote:
               | They are a _sophisticated_ money siphoning program.
               | Socialize the cost of war (taxes), but privatize the
               | gains (corporate profit).
        
               | tazu wrote:
               | There is no cost, overall it all raises US GDP. Military
               | lives are not considered.
        
               | churchill wrote:
               | Digging a hole and covering it at a cost of $22 trillion
               | will double America's GDP overnight. But it doesn't
               | create value for anyone.
               | 
               | All it does is transfer money to the contractor doing the
               | digging (in America's case, the military-industrial
               | complex) while everyone else becomes poorer.
               | 
               | $8 trillion has been spent on the War on Terror so far.
               | Like I said in another comment, that's enough money to
               | build 80 million $100k homes, or reduce America's debt by
               | 25%, or pay off all student loans, or build 400,000 KM of
               | high-speed rail at $20M/km, or give every American
               | taxpayer a one-time check of $48k, etc.
               | 
               | Every bomb dropped on Afghanistan or Iraq was money
               | diverted from something else useful the US could have
               | done.
        
             | ClumsyPilot wrote:
             | > it always comes back to bite the US in the ass
             | 
             | Does it? So far millions of traumatised and in various ways
             | challenging to deal with refugees are in Europe.
        
         | asynchronous wrote:
         | It's a dumb question simply because we know most North Korean
         | cyber agents are working abroad- they literally live in China
         | or somewhere else and setup infrastructure elsewhere to remote
         | into.
        
         | phoenixreader wrote:
         | The Chinese government had built the infrastructure for the
         | Great Firewall, allowing them to block whoever they want. The
         | US does not have this capability.
        
           | willcipriano wrote:
           | You certain all those devices in black rooms[0] like Room
           | 641A[1] are entirely passive? I'm not.
           | 
           | [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_room
           | 
           | [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
        
             | Terr_ wrote:
             | What makes you think the same equipment would have the
             | necessary mechanics and capacity for realtime mass-
             | filtering?
             | 
             | Even in America, I imagine there are many other budget
             | priorities competing for a limited spook-fund, that would
             | displace a "national censor-wall but indefinitely inactive
             | and secret just in case we need it someday."
        
               | willcipriano wrote:
               | You know how the internet and things like Tor are
               | products of the Department of Defense?
               | 
               | The State Department has been using the internet (and
               | anonymization tools like Tor) to organize dissidents in
               | foreign countries for various purposes, often coups. One
               | example is the Arab Spring[1].
               | 
               | I'd wager they are very afraid of someone doing it back
               | to them, and might have some capability in place. Even if
               | it's just to shut the internet off for a time (like
               | Pakistan and other nations have done during elections[0],
               | maybe in response to US interference) or perhaps prevent
               | connections to other nations/the rest of the world more
               | generally.
               | 
               | [0]https://www.accessnow.org/campaign/2024-elections-and-
               | intern...
               | 
               | [1]https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/arabstudquar.35.
               | 3.0255...
        
               | Terr_ wrote:
               | So the issue _isn 't_ a PRC-esque Great Firewall, but
               | instead a more generic "blanket interruption of service
               | in some region for some time"? I feel those are
               | significantly different scenarios.
               | 
               | For one, they're would be an _enormous_ backlash if it
               | were to somehow effect the many American businesses which
               | rely on network access and have significant clout in our
               | system. Most of the countries that have tried such things
               | either (A) don 't have the economic exposure or (B)
               | limited the outage-scope to zones without the same
               | stakeholders.
               | 
               | Another aspect is that such coarse interruptions are a
               | lot easier to accomplish through a bunch of NSL-weilding
               | lawyer-agents contacting ISPs, rather than spending money
               | building dedicated hardware infrastructure, in advance,
               | in secret, to support a Giant Red Button.
               | 
               | I'm not saying there's no possible Motive, but it's no
               | substitute for Means and Opportunity.
        
         | jbkkd wrote:
         | Someone did it a while ago:
         | 
         | https://www.wired.com/story/north-korea-hacker-internet-outa...
        
           | EgoIsMyFriend wrote:
           | don't bother with the above link if you're not subscribed to
           | wired, use this instead:
           | 
           | https://archive.is/rWpjI
        
         | woodruffw wrote:
         | Taking you seriously: I'm pretty sure NK has non-oceanic
         | interconnects with both China and Russia. So unless your plan
         | involves attacking within the internationally recognized
         | borders of either and living with the consequences, the answer
         | is "not easy."
        
           | mattmaroon wrote:
           | I assume the US is willing to do this because we do it
           | frequently, though not with China or Russia. I'm not sure
           | about the DPRK, and was asking more of a technical question
           | than a political one. Like, how many cables would we need to
           | cut and how exposed are they? I'm aware they're a nuclear
           | power (ish) and the politics aren't trivial.
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | I don't think we go around frequently cutting international
             | interconnects? Do you have a source for this?
        
         | rwmj wrote:
         | This wouldn't work against the bad actors as they could just
         | proxy through a friendly (to NK) country. And would set a bad
         | precedent of using Internet access as a tool for sanctioning.
        
         | konart wrote:
         | >Serious question, if the United States decided to unilaterally
         | cut North Korea off from the Internet, how hard would that be
         | to do? Could we just knock out a few cables?
         | 
         | You will have to cut cables going to Russia (and\or out of
         | Russia) and China at least.
         | 
         | Not to mention wireless comms.
        
           | mattmaroon wrote:
           | How many? Near as I can tell a few drone bombs could
           | accomplish this. We love drone bombing other countries.
        
             | lotsofpulp wrote:
             | Not ones with nuclear weapons. Or one that manufactures all
             | the toys that keep Americans happy.
        
               | mattmaroon wrote:
               | That's true, but are they really going to lob their two
               | nukes at Maui just because we drone bomb a few wires? The
               | Kims like being alive.
        
               | socksy wrote:
               | The Kims are likely the only reliable bet for people who
               | would actually survive a nuclear war and the following
               | nuclear winters, if the book Nuclear War by Anne Jacobsen
               | is to be believed. They're the only ones that have built
               | their bunkers deep enough (under mountains) that modern
               | thermo nuclear weapons wouldn't destroy them, and they
               | have years of supplies down there.
        
               | csomar wrote:
               | No. At least not because of that. But if they drone bomb
               | Seoul, would you continue the escalation? Because the
               | escalation can lead to that.
               | 
               | Also DPRK is threatening Seoul and Japan, not the USA.
        
             | tempodox wrote:
             | I'm not sure drone pilots would cooperate. They are
             | accustomed to live targets, after all.
        
               | nprateem wrote:
               | Just need to add it as a new mission in GTA6 and there'll
               | be no problem in 3 years time.
        
               | jnordwick wrote:
               | Ender's Game IRL
        
         | segmondy wrote:
         | USA doesn't care about North Korea. We love to have Boogeymen.
         | What would the military industrial complex do and be without
         | our Boogeymen?
        
           | xadhominemx wrote:
           | We care very much about North Korea as they have nuclear
           | weapons and share a land border with our ally
        
         | lucasRW wrote:
         | They already partially operate from China. They would just do
         | that more. They could even have their own connection to China
         | and connect to the Internet from there. It's going to be a
         | wack-a-mole thing that they easily win.
        
           | mattmaroon wrote:
           | I wasn't assuming it to be a strategy that was permanently
           | feasible.
        
         | icameron wrote:
         | I think their main connection comes through china, but if that
         | was cut off they could still use star links.
        
           | mattmaroon wrote:
           | If you mean SpaceX's Starlink they obviously can't. Elon
           | clearly controls who uses it where.
           | 
           | If you are just using the term generically and mean other
           | satellite connections, maybe, but limiting them to satellite
           | internet only where we couldn't take out a dish would
           | certainly be crippling to the crimes I'm referencing!
        
         | bn-l wrote:
         | > They certainly don't allow their citizens to use it for
         | anything else, and they don't allow their citizens to leave the
         | country because they would never come back.
         | 
         | I never thought about it like this but it's the largest open
         | air prison on earth.
        
           | vincnetas wrote:
           | nope, earth is the biggest open air prison ;) and only guard
           | it needs is the gravity.
        
         | Fokamul wrote:
         | Tell me you're American without telling me you're American :D
        
         | citizenpaul wrote:
         | N.Korea is a Chinese weapon, unfortunately. To do something
         | like cut off their internet would be considered an attack on
         | China. China is their border where do you think they get
         | connected to the internet.
        
         | petre wrote:
         | Sure. As if they couldn't reroute through any other country.
         | They're already cut off by their leadership, except for the
         | state sponsored cybercriminal groups which don't need a NK IP.
        
         | godelski wrote:
         | > cut North Korea off from the Internet, how hard would that be
         | to do? Could we just knock out a few cables?       > Is this
         | just not logistically feasible?
         | 
         | NK shares a physical border with China and Russia. Not to
         | mention that we can send data by means other than a physical
         | wire.
         | 
         | Even if you were willing to block Russia and China from "the
         | internet" (lol) it would be nearly logistically impossible.
         | 
         | Even if you were willing to destroy all sense of privacy and
         | track every single packet sent (what a terrible dystopian
         | idea), there's still going to be ways to fake this. It would
         | only make it harder, not impossible.
        
       | consumerx wrote:
       | Them vs. governments and banks in the past 100 years. You decide
       | who's looking like children when compared. Lol
        
       | szivsx wrote:
       | 1000$
        
       | earnesti wrote:
       | So all the crypto went to paxful/noones, and was converted to
       | fiat there. Should be pretty straightforward to subpoena them and
       | get all data about their fiat accounts?
        
       | DrNosferatu wrote:
       | Interesting to see that, apparently, Monero was never used.
        
         | andrepd wrote:
         | Indeed, I would assume applications needing untraceability
         | would use XMR
        
         | hanniabu wrote:
         | Because most of the crypto economy is on Ethereum. Monero's own
         | hubris and "better than thou" mentality quarantined itself from
         | the rest of the ecosystem.
        
       | evilfred wrote:
       | code is law, no?
        
       | seydor wrote:
       | Thank god we have crypto or else we d never know
        
         | aabhay wrote:
         | Indeed. We would have been sitting with our measly treasury
         | bills, without a care in the world
        
       | n_ary wrote:
       | Question from my curious mind. How are the Metamask instances of
       | specific device getting replaced by modified/malware-d version?
       | How does that even work?
        
         | stuffoverflow wrote:
         | Basically they first need to get a remote shell and are then
         | able to replace the extension source with the modified one.
         | 
         | This article does a good job explaining it more in depth.[0]
         | 
         | 0: https://securelist.com/the-bluenoroff-cryptocurrency-hunt-
         | is...
        
           | n_ary wrote:
           | Thanks! That is some extensive level of social engineering,
           | reconnaissance and exploiting. Takes a lot of patience and
           | discipline to pull such sophisticated heist.
        
       | Fokamul wrote:
       | Why these Lazarus geniuses didn't use XMR at all, huh?
       | 
       | I like it, that somebody thinks $4B is a lot. If FIAT CASH was
       | trackable as crypto, your head would explode.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-09-15 23:01 UTC)