[HN Gopher] FDA Authorizes First Over-the-Counter Hearing Aid So...
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FDA Authorizes First Over-the-Counter Hearing Aid Software
Author : mgerdts
Score : 384 points
Date : 2024-09-12 22:24 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fda.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fda.gov)
| neilv wrote:
| Consider the plausible scenario of Apple developing a _superior_
| hearing aid -- a medical device.
|
| If that happens, will people be able to use best medical device
| _without_ being subject to the various liberties that tech
| companies take with users -- violating privacy, and exercising
| leverage to other purposes?
|
| We've become acclimated to expect violation from the "tech"
| industry, but what about the _medical_ field?
| candiddevmike wrote:
| The FDA, for all of its warts, is pretty good at curbing bad
| behavior like this. All medical devices are pretty rigorously
| controlled, to the point where you can't really add anything to
| it that isn't absolutely necessary for the device to function.
| And if you do, there's an encyclopedia worth of paperwork
| you're going to have to write to defend why the functionality
| is needed.
|
| FDA likes to "duck type" things, and if your duck doesn't look
| like the other ducks, you need to create a new animal or make
| your duck look like other ducks.
| neilv wrote:
| Interesting. Do you think the FDA will be more proactive and
| sharper, than regulatory authorities that got confused in the
| past by tech companies (Airbnb, Uber, RealPage (YieldStar),
| and others)?
| candiddevmike wrote:
| The opposite, they're going to be ridiculously stubborn and
| require all of these high tech gadgets to be "less". The I
| in FDA stands for innovation.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| > "The I in FDA stands for innovation."
|
| LOL. I hadn't seen this before. Quote? Or did you coin
| it?
| gwern wrote:
| Especially here. Expecting good faith in hearing aid
| regulation - from the _FDA_?! Remember, Congress
| authorized OTC hearing aids back in the Trump
| administration, in _August 2017_
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-
| Counter_Hearing_Aid_A...). For perspective, GPT-1 didn't
| even exist yet. But the FDA slow-walked it so long that
| the Biden administration had to intervene (and is now
| trying to claim credit for it all, of course), which is
| part of why the OTC hearing aid explosion has taken so
| long, been so tentative and slow, and you're only seeing
| it really taking off the past 2 years or so.
| tomrod wrote:
| If they hadn't intervened, would it have happened?
| sureIy wrote:
| I think this event proves you absolutely wrong.
|
| They approved hearing aid "software", meaning it can run on
| arbitrary hardware that may or may not have the restrictions
| you're talking about... as part of other "software"
| mike_d wrote:
| > We've become acclimated to expect violation from the "tech"
| industry, but what about the medical field?
|
| Oh, you sweet innocent child.
|
| Look at price gouging on EpiPens, J&J "lifelong" hip implants
| needing replacement every few years, insulin pumps with
| proprietary batteries, glucose monitors that actively prevent
| you from reading data, etc.
|
| Big bad tech companies don't hold a candle to the medical
| industry.
| StressedDev wrote:
| How is Apple violating people's privacy? They have done a far
| better job than other companies from what I'm have seen.
| zie wrote:
| I mean they are the best of the big tech companies, by a
| country mile, but that's not really saying a lot. If you want
| the full details, go read the privacy policy with a skeptic's
| perspective.
| Angostura wrote:
| "Do your own research "
| thowawatp302 wrote:
| Everything in there seems fine to me, not sure what you're
| talking about
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Scanning for image hashes on everyone's phone is one.
| echoangle wrote:
| They aren't doing that currently though, right? The only
| thing I remember is the NeuralHash thing which was delayed
| and then never came.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Big tech - including even Meta but definitely including Apple -
| have an insanely better track record of keeping user data safe
| than traditional non-tech companies.
| olalonde wrote:
| If you take away economic incentive from Apple, the plausible
| scenario is that Apple is simply not going to develop such
| superior devices.
| abtinf wrote:
| > This application was reviewed under the FDA's De Novo premarket
| review pathway, a regulatory pathway for some low- to moderate-
| risk devices that are novel and for which there is no prior
| legally marketed device.
|
| Does that mean that if Android/Bose/Sony/etc were to develop a
| comparable solution, they would not be able to use the "De Novo
| premarket review pathway" because AirPods Pro is now a "prior
| legally marketed device"?
|
| How much more onerous is the normal pathway?
| tootie wrote:
| Sony already has OTC hearing aids on the market
| CharlesW wrote:
| Neat: https://electronics.sony.com/more/otc-hearing-
| aid/c/all-otc-...
|
| So what does "first OTC Hearing Aid Software" mean, given
| that both are hardware/software systems?
| Spooky23 wrote:
| It does some tuning based on a hearing test.
| tootie wrote:
| It seems like it's software to conduct a hearing evaluation
| to tune the airpods.
|
| There's actually loads of OTC hearing aids on the market
| already although most seem fairly pricey.
| squidgedcricket wrote:
| > Does that mean that if Android/Bose/Sony/etc were to develop
| a comparable solution, they would not be able to use the "De
| Novo premarket review pathway" because AirPods Pro is now a
| "prior legally marketed device"?
|
| Nope, they'd use the 510k process, which is less onerous than
| de novo. De novo is a quicker alternative to the traditional
| path for brand new classes of devices. The 510k process is used
| to develop a new device within an existing class.
| ijustlovemath wrote:
| Med device startup cofounder here.
|
| In terms of difficulty in your path to market, from hardest to
| easiest (and ignoring some less common pathways):
|
| 1. Pre Market Approval: you're addressing a completely unproven
| technology in a novel and or dangerous space. Usually Class II
| and above.
|
| 2. De Novo: you're adding a new technology to a somewhat well
| known space. Usually Class II+
|
| 3. 510(k): There's already something in the market that
| addresses a similar problem and works using similar technology
| to your device. FDA understands these things well and have a
| very clear approval guideline, which usually just takes time to
| rubber stamp if the submission is of sufficiently high quality.
|
| This is all ignoring Breakthrough Medical Devices, which have a
| ton of red tape cut (max 30 days to hear back about any
| submission, and if they run out of time, it's an approval).
| These kinds of devices are pretty rare, though.
| dannyw wrote:
| As much as I am in favor of cutting red tape, medical devices
| should not be received in 30 days max.
| cruffle_duffle wrote:
| Why? I do this sort of technique all the time at work to
| keep things moving. "I'm gonna ship this code on Friday and
| if I don't hear anything before then I'll assume no news is
| good news and do it!".
|
| There should always be an upper bound to how long somebody
| can block your progress. If something was so important that
| they want to block me, why didn't they tell me before
| Friday? That was ample time to raise objections.
|
| It's just an SLA and holds people accountable.
| ijustlovemath wrote:
| Really what happens is your application is given a higher
| priority level and dedicated reviewers. They're still going
| through the full review process, its just they're focusing
| on your submission.
| danudey wrote:
| "Breakthrough" devices have to be devices which show a
| significant improvement to quality of life over existing
| treatments for "life threatening or irreversably
| debilitating" conditions, using breakthrough technology in
| a space where an existing device doesn't exist yet.
|
| So it's less "we made a better pacemaker that uses ChatGPT"
| and more "this new ventilator can keep people alive even
| when their lungs are filling with fluid and they're going
| to die otherwise".
| xucheng wrote:
| Interestingly, in the end of the article, the FDA links to an old
| article hosted on web.archive.org[1] even though the linked
| article was originally published by FDA themselves. Considering
| the linked article was only published at 2022, a merely 2 years
| ago, maybe the FDA should do more to prevent dead links.
|
| [1]:
| https://web.archive.org/web/20221028042729/https:/www.fda.go...
| bigiain wrote:
| > maybe the FDA should do more to prevent dead links
|
| Perhaps government departments (and companies) taking advantage
| of archive.org storing their old docs should be appropriately
| supporting them?
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| I don't know how much money the internet archive has received
| from official US government institutions, but they do receive
| at least some as you can see from their list of foundations
| that help with funding them: https://archive.org/about/
| galleywest200 wrote:
| This could also make is more difficult for new administrations
| to "disappear" documents from government sites by storing them
| on an archival site.
| Nursie wrote:
| I'm very positive about this development.
|
| I don't personally need hearing aids (yet) but I know people that
| do, and dear god are they expensive pieces of equipment.
|
| Even if the AirPods aren't perfect for everyone (not everyone
| wants in-ear devices) a big name like this getting in at that
| price-point might shake up the market.
| duskwuff wrote:
| > I don't personally need hearing aids (yet) but I know people
| that do, and dear god are they expensive pieces of equipment.
|
| They aren't as bad as they used to be. You can get over-the-
| counter hearing aids in the $200-500 range nowadays.
|
| Even so, at $250, AirPods Pro are in a pretty good spot. The
| main drawback I see is that the earbuds don't have all-day
| battery life; users will need to recharge them in the case
| periodically.
| BOOSTERHIDROGEN wrote:
| any recommendations ?
| thebigman433 wrote:
| You should go to Costco and try a bunch if you have one
| near you. Its hard to recommend specific hearing aids to
| people without knowing what they need. If you dont have a
| Costco, go to any reputable hearing aid store near you and
| try from their stock
| Nursie wrote:
| Just to echo what the other poster said - Costco seem to
| have very good prices and will give you a free hearing test
| with an audiologist (in Australia anyway)
|
| Their range is fairly limited, but not necessarily in a bad
| way. Compared to what other audiologists
| recommend/prescribe, Costco's stuff was about half the
| price.
|
| OTC hearing aids - no idea.
| Nursie wrote:
| I guess the big question there is, which market segment will
| the airpods be comparable to - OTC or prescription?
|
| Because the 'good' hearing aids cost thousands of dollars,
| and a lot of their added value is in various forms of sound
| processing. I can see apple doing quite well at that.
|
| > The main drawback I see is that the earbuds don't have all-
| day battery life; users will need to recharge them in the
| case periodically.
|
| Yeah definitely, though if we are comparing them to 'good'
| hearing aids then at that price you could buy two pairs and
| rotate them through the charging case and still come out
| ahead.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I've seen Costco sell AirPod Pros for $170 or $180 a couple
| times a year.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Adam Savage (of Mythbusters fame) discussed his use of very
| high-end hearing aids on his Youtube Channel. He has hearing
| loss and he's of course pretty clued in when it comes to
| hearing aids. He did a review on the specific brand he's using.
| From what I remember, he was quite critical on the lack of
| access to good products for most people that need to get these
| via some insurance coverage. It would be interesting to get his
| perspective on airpods.
|
| Because of all the legislation, it's actually a hard market to
| break into and the resulting products aren't necessarily very
| good or competitive. The focus is on keeping the insurers happy
| and getting approved; not the end user. The better products can
| get really expensive too. So the FDA approving consumer grade
| products could be a big deal.
|
| Apple's airpods probably have quite a lot of non trivial tech
| on board that probably overlaps significantly what some hearing
| aids try to do. For example, AI that isolates sound and things
| like noise suppression that work in a very targeted way are
| game changers. Instead of just amplifying sound, selectively
| blocking some sound is probably very helpful.
|
| Thankfully I have no issues but I know some people that do that
| wear hearing aids. Despite that, talking to them can be
| challenging and they have all sorts of issues communicating in
| loud places.
|
| I imagine these could be useful for people that are completely
| deaf even. They wouldn't hear anything but they might benefit
| from e.g. live audio transcription; which is something that's
| probably not that hard anymore for the likes of Apple or
| Google.
| dadadad100 wrote:
| I think I'm the target market. Old enough that my hearing
| requires some help, but still working in tech from home. The
| hearing aids I've looked at - I have a prescription - have
| Bluetooth for listening but no microphone for talking. I use my
| AirPods for teams calls all day long. Switching back and forth
| to a hearing aid seems too much trouble so I haven't taken that
| step. I will get these new AirPods the day the feature ships. I
| may need two pairs to deal with the battery life but it's still
| cheap.
| mgerdts wrote:
| I'm conflicted on use of AirPods as hearing aids. I use one
| hearing aid and have normal hearing in the other ear. I often
| listen to things on my phone over the one hearing aid. It would
| be nice to have stereo. For this reason, AirPods for both
| listening to stuff and hearing assistance would be great.
|
| On the other hand, when I see someone wearing AirPods I assume
| they are listening to something else or are otherwise trying to
| shut the world out. If I were wearing them to be able to engage
| more, I think I would just be sending the opposite message.
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| This problem could be solved easily. One could put some kind of
| tiny sticker on their AirPods - it would take sometime for it
| to become mainstream - like an orange color ring - indicating
| the user is using the AirPods as hearing aids. (This is a
| people problem...)
| wpollock wrote:
| The answer is handicap hang tags, like those used in cars,
| but worn as earrings. <wink>
| hunter2_ wrote:
| The sticker/paint could change all of the white into a skin
| tone, the way many hearing aids are. Maybe similar to
| wrapping a car with vinyl, or nail polish.
| sneak wrote:
| Some RGB LEDs in the airpods that change color depending on
| the mode could also achieve this.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| The issue would be battery use. The batteries in these
| things are _tiny_ , and using them as hearing aids could
| mean longer use.
|
| Having a phone lockscreen indicator of status would be a
| good way to show this.
|
| I think the phone interface for audiograms is ridiculously
| complex. They need to improve that.
| echoangle wrote:
| How would a phone lockscreen indicator work? If someone
| walks up to you in a store with AirPods in, how are you
| seeing the indicator on the phone in their pocket? The
| situations where I can look at the lock screen of the
| phone of the person I'm speaking to are pretty limited.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Good point.
|
| But LEDs would probably take too much battery power.
|
| Not sure if the new color eInk would be useful.
| echoangle wrote:
| Quick maths on the LED thing:
|
| According to Wikipedia, AirPods Pro Gen 1 have 0.16 Wh of
| battery per AirPod (There's no data on Gen 2). With 5
| hours listening time, that gives a power draw of 0.032
| watts or 32 milliwatts. This answer
| https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/640179 (I know,
| not the best source, but I'm just guesstimating anyways)
| gives a current of 1 mA at 5 V for an indicator LED. So
| the LED would need 5 mW. That increases power draw to 37
| milliwatts and gives a new battery life of about 4 hours
| and 20 minutes. If using 5 mA, which the answer calls
| "blindingly bright for some clear LEDs, even from 10 feet
| away", the LED would draw 25 mW and reduce listening time
| to only 2 hours and 50 minutes. The answer is also about
| non-diffuse LEDs so the indicator would only be visible
| from a narrow angle, but since it would point forward,
| that's probably fine. Making it diffuse would reduce
| perceived brightness again.
|
| Brightness could be fine indoors, but outside with direct
| sun is probably harder. Since you would have the LED on
| both AirPods, you could probably expect that at least one
| of them is in the shadow at any time though.
| sureIy wrote:
| Is it? I think that thanks to transparency mode and
| conversation detection people are keeping them in "full time".
| In noisy environments I just keep them on without music and
| they help me hear people talk.
| mgerdts wrote:
| It really depends on the awareness of product features and
| evolution of the actively used devices. My lived experience
| is that those with white things in their ears can't hear you
| or can barely hear you and have to pull one out to have a
| conversation.
|
| Those that know you probably understand how you use them. If
| I were to see you walking in my neighborhood with your
| AirPods I would probably not bother saying hi unless I
| already knew you. If you were a new neighbor that always wore
| AirPods, that means we would probably never become more than
| strangers to each other unless you initiated conversation.
| latexr wrote:
| > If I were to see you walking in my neighborhood with your
| AirPods I would probably not bother saying hi unless I
| already knew you.
|
| You can still do a slight but friendly wave or nod. That
| would open the door for them to verbalise a "hi" or "good
| morning" and strike up a conversation. And it only needs to
| happen once for you to know.
|
| Also, anecdotally, over a decade ago I used to wear non-
| white headphones or earphones in public frequently. Yet I
| was still accosted by strangers all the time, asking for
| directions or other information, when there were plenty of
| other people around with nothing in their ears. Still I
| tried to always be helpful and friendly, even if it could
| get tiresome: I was always listening to a book, not music,
| so interruptions were meaningful distractions.
| geoelectric wrote:
| I'm pretty pumped about it actually. I have high-frequency
| hearing loss in one ear (along with replacement tinnitus) that
| just randomly crept in on me a few years ago, probably after
| some ENT infection or the other.
|
| The hearing specialist who tested me said it's fairly
| significant--eg I can't hear consonants at the end of words
| clearly, think he rated it as 75yo hearing and I was ~45, and
| he asked me if I happened to shoot guns on that side. But he
| did not recommend going so far as a hearing aid yet.
|
| I personally am skeptical, especially a few years later. What
| the AirPods solution might do is let me audition the idea. If
| it turns out whatever it does is beneficial, that will
| certainly prompt me to get myself retested for the real thing.
| I should get re-tested anyway, but there's not much better to
| motivate you than concrete evidence.
| Angostura wrote:
| The fact that Airpods _don't_ look like hearing aids is a key
| advantage for some people. it's especially important to some
| young people for whom there is a bit of a stigma around wearing
| them.
| ghaff wrote:
| The flip side is you're wearing something that (today) is
| generally considered an entertainment device or something
| used to communicate with someone not in the room.
|
| To be clear, I think this is great. My dad bought something
| off Amazon as a backup for his hearing aid and tried to get
| remote tech support from me. Who knows what Chinese piece of
| crap he bought and what he needed to make it work?
| Fortunately the return was easy.
|
| I'd have a lot more confidence in an Airpod.
| talldayo wrote:
| It's a huge double-edged sword. I don't think twice about
| people wearing hearing aids at the movies or walking down a
| busy parking lot. If I see someone with Airpods doing the
| same thing, I'm going to assume they're not using the rare
| FDA-authorized feature and instead are fully noise-cancelled.
|
| Hell, there's an entire meme of "Oh no, they have their
| Airpods in!" that certainly won't abate after the release of
| a rarely-used feature.
| AyyEye wrote:
| > it's especially important to some young people for whom
| there is a bit of a stigma around wearing them.
|
| Anyone who has a stigma about wearing hearing aids around
| people they are talking to but not a stigma about wearing
| earbuds while conversing needs to do some deep reflection.
| userbinator wrote:
| _The rule enabled consumers with perceived mild to moderate
| hearing impairment to purchase hearing aids directly from stores
| or online retailers without the need for a medical exam,
| prescription or seeing an audiologist_
|
| Is it just me or does this article sound (pun intended) a bit
| tone-deaf? All this talk of them "authorizing", when earphones
| with built-in mics, transparency modes, and adjustable equalisers
| have existed for years before this, available for everyone to
| purchase, and can function as a "hearing aid".
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| Authorization is a big deal. It means it can be payed for by
| insurance or explicitly prescribed.
| herpderperator wrote:
| It's kinda crazy hearing Apple mention during their event that
| they expect FDA approval "very soon", and it actually happening 3
| days later. I would have thought that governments can't promise
| timelines to anyone, especially something like FDA approval.
| playingalong wrote:
| I don't think they can promise. But in a formal process with so
| many steps involved, you know what else is left to be done. And
| if there's nothing left, you assume "very soon" completion.
| Also Apple's announcement was kind of a pressure put on the
| gov: "hey, enough, unless you want everyone angry at you".
| ivoflipse wrote:
| If you've submitted a 510k for your medical device, you can
| advertise it as "510k pending".
|
| There is a risk that you never receive the clearance or
| approval, but in this case Apple probably knew they had already
| addressed any feedback the FDA had so it was very likely there
| would be no further stumbling blocks
| sqs wrote:
| Rule of law FTW! Governments can't usually promise timelines,
| but when the process is well documented and predictable, that
| is a very good thing.
| sneak wrote:
| Literally nobody wants the government telling them what kind
| of headphones they are allowed to wear. This is a failure of
| the rule of law.
| viherjuuri wrote:
| The government is not telling you which headphones you can
| wear. They are saying that these particular headphones work
| well enough as a hearing aid that it is ok that market them
| as such. This protects you from quacks that claim their
| device is a hearing aid but that doesn't actually work.
| mikaraento wrote:
| To be fair, in the case of hearing aids you are both in
| the right.
|
| Excessive regulation has created oligopolies and kept
| prices high in the US. The OTC hearing aid category is
| meant to help. Before that, low-cost devices tended to
| remain niche.
|
| OTOH the regulation(s) were introduced due to blatant
| sales of substandard devices, esp in the 1970s. A high-
| amplification device runs the risk of further damaging
| your hearing. Many hearing aid users are vulnerable
| elderly.
| barryrandall wrote:
| Nobody is telling anyone what kind of headphones they're
| allowed to wear. They do, however, tell _companies_ that
| they can't claim their product has medical benefits without
| proving (to some kind of standard) that the product is safe
| to use, and does what it claims to do. This system was put
| in place after businesses spent decades scamming the public
| with "medicine" that didn't do what it claimed to do and,
| in many cases, was also poisonous.
| latexr wrote:
| The event was prerecorded. It doesn't seem farfetched1 to think
| they already had the approval but legally couldn't say it
| without the FDA making it officially public. But if the FDA had
| announced it before the event, it would've stolen the surprise.
| Not only of the feature, but that new AirPods would be
| announced. Apple would've hated that so they may have asked for
| the announcement to be delayed.
|
| 1 Maybe it is. I'm not an expert on the USA's health and
| government policies.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| The approval process requires steps on both sides; Apple
| could've just delayed sending the last bit of finalising
| paperwork until they were sure it would drop after the
| announcement.
| not_the_fda wrote:
| 510ks have a 90 day timeline. The FDA can "stop the clock" to
| ask for more information and clarification. Buts its 90 days
| from submital to approval or rejection if your paperwork is in
| order.
|
| Novel devices have a different path.
|
| Once cleared the FDA can and will come by at anytime and do an
| audit of your processes and if they aren't up to snuff they can
| shutdown sales.
|
| Its a trust but verify system.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| What in Apple's statement made you think the FDA promised them
| anything? They were probably all the way through with
| everything they needed to do for the FDA process and, well,
| there's a timeline for this process so that's why they knew.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| They definitely broadcast almost-definite timelines. You see
| regularly SpaceX prepping launch sites for FAA approval that
| comes less than a day before launch.
| 14 wrote:
| This is so cool to see. As a health care worker I see lots of
| people who simply can not afford heating aids as they run for
| thousands of dollars and then things like they hop into a shower
| and they stop working happen all the time.
|
| What a lot of people don't realize is that hearing loss is a loss
| of ability to hear certain frequencies. You can't simply turn up
| the volume although that does help to some degree. So what
| happens is you see a doctor who determines what frequency loss
| you have and the hearing aid when it picks up that frequency
| shifts it to another frequency that you can hear. So I do see why
| up until now ya it was regulated. We don't want some company
| selling a device that simply cranks the volume and potentially
| causes more damage. But with today's technology we are more then
| ready for this to be a reality. With an app we can offer hearing
| tests and determine what areas the client needs improved. This I
| feel will be a game changer for some.
|
| The only thing I wonder about is how well do air pods hold up to
| waxy ears? With regular hearing aids they need cleaning and often
| have things like a wax trap which is a tiny plug that catches wax
| and can be swapped out easily.
| left-struck wrote:
| This is a minor point but cranking the volume doesn't
| necessarily mean hearing loss.
|
| You could for example have a device that amplifies external
| sound so that you your hearing is enhanced over all frequencies
| but has a max volume that it will not exceed. This compresses
| the dynamic range and makes the quietest sounds easier to
| detect. It would reduce your ability to distinguish sounds in a
| noisy environment though I imagine.
| bagels wrote:
| They need to legalize glasses.
| sneak wrote:
| Zenni has historically been good about shipping without a
| prescription (not sure about present day), and you can buy
| contacts in Europe without a prescription and have them
| shipped, although the shipping is a bit higher.
| ewoodrich wrote:
| > Zenni has historically been good about shipping without a
| prescription (not sure about present day)
|
| They still are. As long as you don't confuse them by
| including a few pairs of glasses with similar but slightly
| different values in the same order. Then they might demand an
| actual copy of a prescription. Don't ask me how I know...
| hungie wrote:
| FDA with a reasonable bar - demonstrate that this is equivalent
| to a professional fitting.
|
| I'll take any opportunities for assistive technology to be a
| cheaper option.
| sneak wrote:
| Hearing aids are neither food nor drugs. Same goes for glasses
| and contact lenses, and CPAP machines.
|
| These should never have required approval or prescriptions in the
| first place. So many people are kept from getting what they need
| by these arbitrary restrictions.
| wtallis wrote:
| > Hearing aids are neither food nor drugs.
|
| Do you really believe that the FDA needs to be renamed before
| it is reasonable for them to be the agency responsible for
| regulating medical devices? Is there a _different_ agency you
| think would be a better fit?
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| The NIH?
| wtallis wrote:
| That's purely a research organization, with no existing
| regulatory role.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Sure. But it would work if you're just looking at names,
| as it seemed OP was doing.
| avianlyric wrote:
| While we're at it, the FDA shouldn't regulate pacemakers,
| glucose monitors, artificial hearts, cochlear implants, hip
| replacement joints, or any other kind of surgical implant.
|
| None of them are either food or drugs, and so many people are
| prevented from getting what they need thanks to these arbitrary
| restrictions!
|
| Hmmm, on second thought, I'm not sure allowing ali express
| implants to be marketed the same as rigourously tested
| implants, with clear evidence of safety and _efficacy_ , is
| such a great idea.
| bregma wrote:
| Same with pacemakers, joint replacements, insulin pumps,
| glucose test strips, heck even bloodletting razors and leeches.
| You should be able to just order them online from an Amazon
| reseller or pick them up down at the Quickie Mart and take the
| risk entirely on yourself, your dependents, or your co-
| conspirators without no gov't meddling from so-called experts.
| stevesimmons wrote:
| So FCA regulation of CPAP machines just gets in the way of
| people getting what they need?
|
| How about Philips Respironics have to recall something like 15
| million CPAP devices in 2021 because they contained foam liable
| to disintegrate and which the user would then inhale...
| autoexec wrote:
| Yeah, if anything that showed we need more regulation and
| even more importantly a better justice system. They knew
| their devices were going to cause cancer and kill people, and
| they not only continued to sell their devices, but they went
| out of their way to try to hide the facts from the public so
| that they could continue to kill as many people as possible.
|
| The people at Philips Respironics were/are literal serial
| killers. Their product has been linked to hundreds of deaths,
| but not one person spent even a single day in jail.
| hooverd wrote:
| Eh, we need better regulation. Regulation proponents should
| distinguish between bullshit hoops that only the big boys
| can jump through vs targeted regulations that prevent this
| kind of thing from happening.
| autoexec wrote:
| You're right. Regulations are critically important, but
| they're just tools and they can be used for evil or good
| depending on what they're doing and whose interests they
| serve.
| echoangle wrote:
| Do you think having companies make defibrillators without any
| approval is a good idea? Those aren't food nor drugs either.
| theshackleford wrote:
| I'd prefer more oversight of things like CPP, preferably it
| would been before I spent years inhaling cancerous chemicals.
| car wrote:
| With the AirPods now officially becoming hearing aids, it will
| hopefully reduce the stigma and attitude towards hearing aids and
| allow many more people to realize how bad their hearing actually
| is.
|
| I have been wearing hearing aids for a few years now (Phonak).
| I've also used the AirPods Pro with the accessibility audiogram
| feature (basically making them hearing aids), which is really
| good and has also been around for a few years. I'm very glad,
| that Apple has made this official and even gotten FDA approval.
|
| When I started to loose my hearing a decade ago, for a long time
| I refused to wear hearing aids, probably due to the perceived
| stigma. Even though it made life harder and harder -- imagine
| work meetings with a mumbling boss or me accusing my family to
| intentionally whisper -- it took years to change my mind. In
| hindsight I should have gotten hearing aids years sooner.
|
| My 'real' hearing aids are nothing short of a technological
| marvel. They are tiny and run for a few days on zinc-air
| batteries (312/Costco but made by Varta), while providing all-day
| BT streaming. Btw, funny how most hearing aid brands come from
| Denmark. In contrast, the AirPods run out after a few hours and
| are also destined to become landfill due to their built in
| battery.
| spookie wrote:
| I have got to say it was fantastic seeing my grandmas eyes glow
| when, for no reason, I thought "wait my xm4's could help her"
| and put them on her.
|
| She was then able to hear our conversations even though the xm4
| are not as good the real thing.
|
| She didnt want hearing aids before that, but afterwards she
| wanted ones.
| vitorbaptistaa wrote:
| The Sony WH-1000XM4? I'm still on the Bose QC 35, but you got
| me curious. Could you explain how using it as a hearing aid
| works? I searched the web but couldn't find good references.
| xaqfox wrote:
| There is a noise canceling mode that let's you hear what is
| received by the microphone array and an option to "filter
| in voices while suppressing noise" (they call that voice
| passthrough). That section of the app is called "Ambient
| Sound Control" if that helps your research.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Note also phonaks are traditionally a couple thousand euros a
| piece while even the most expensive airpods are still around
| 300 the pair. Certainly the phonaks are impressively small,
| lasting, good quality, and imperceptible, but is the almost 10x
| price markup justified?
|
| The biggest problem with hearing aids (and
| doctors/calibrators/whatever) is that they are ridiculously
| expensive... the attitude/stigma much less so. (And in any case
| airpods are about the opposite of "imperceptible" so I fail to
| see any appeal other than the price)
| alias_neo wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen someone with a hearing aid and
| though anything negative of it, I get it people can be self-
| conscious, but for something like a hearing aid I think it's
| unjustified.
|
| On the other hand, I can't bring myself to keep earbuds
| (airpods or w/e) in my ears while talking to someone,
| regardless of if I can hear them properly, I just seems
| incredibly rude.
|
| My uneducated opinion, is that someone using airpods as
| hearing aids is more likely to face stigma for that reason,
| than someone wearing what are clearly hearing aids, unless
| people actually know they have hearing issues.
| ghaff wrote:
| It almost certainly depends how social norms develop.
|
| When Borg bluetooth earpieces first came out, they
| definitely carried a tech bro/fin bro/VC/etc. vibe that, at
| any moment, someone more important than you might want to
| get in touch with me.
|
| I do think Airpods today carry a certain I'm not
| necessarily giving you my full attention vibe whereas an
| obvious hearing aid is a medical prosthetic. To the degree
| that Airpods replace hearing aids for some number of people
| or just assist people who aren't quite at the prescribed
| medical device level, that probably changes.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| The one thing that I do believe Apple managed with the
| iPhone is the removal of this "tech bro" vibe from
| carrying a smartphone overall. So I guess it's not
| entirely out of the question that Apple will remove the
| stigma from wearing huge headsets 24h long...
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm skeptical about big headsets but small earpieces seem
| headed towards becoming pretty normalized.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| A buddy had a girlfriend who had reduced hearing. I noticed
| that people would raise their voice and really dumb down
| when speaking to her, like they were talking to a senile
| elderly. It'd happen before she'd said a word, so they
| clearly saw the hearing aid and assumed.
|
| She admitted she disliked wearing the hearing aids, due to
| such things. But the alternative was not following
| conversations, which meant she'd get excluded because she
| missed important information.
|
| Gave me a whole new perspective on hearing loss.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Maybe it's because I have been wearing aids through all
| my life, but I see things this way. I don't care much
| what stigma wearing one carries, considering the
| alternative is being "that guy" who needs everything
| repeated twice, and that is a stigma I hate.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| I don't think the stigma is around hearing loss it's about
| age.
|
| And stigma is probably not the right word, it's an internal
| acceptance issue.
| car wrote:
| You are right, I thought about it a bit more, and I think
| it was more vanity for me, since I was fairly young when
| the hearing loss started. But hearing aids nowadays are
| so inconspicuous that most people don't even notice them.
| autoexec wrote:
| > I don't think I've ever seen someone with a hearing aid
| and though anything negative of it, I get it people can be
| self-conscious, but for something like a hearing aid I
| think it's unjustified.
|
| Neither have I. On the other hand, I have seen people
| wearing air pods and thought they looked ridiculous, as if
| they had qtips sticking out of their ears. Especially if
| they're sticking out at different angles.
| josefresco wrote:
| You're certainly not alone in resisting hearing aids. My dad
| just got some from Costco (most affordable) and really likes
| them. He probably waited 5-10 years too long.
|
| My father-in-law however doesn't like hearing aids because he
| feels they amplify things he doesn't want to hear. Granted he's
| never been fitted to actual hearing aids. I understand his
| concern, but he's told me multiple times his hearing loss
| leaves him isolated during conversation. He told me one night
| that he has a lot to say, but can't hear so he spends a lot of
| time just smiling. It makes me sad that his pride (and
| stubbornness?) is causing him this stress.
| vel0city wrote:
| > he feels they amplify things he doesn't want to hear.
|
| I mean that's kind of the whole point of having them adjusted
| with an audiologist. They're tuned to your specific needs.
|
| It's too bad so many people think they're just mics and
| amplifiers. Modern hearing aids do _a lot_ of signal
| processing.
| Arrath wrote:
| > It's too bad so many people think they're just mics and
| amplifiers. Modern hearing aids do a lot of signal
| processing.
|
| This is what I'm still trying to convince my dad of, after
| he found the pair he was fitted with ~20 years ago
| absolutely useless. He found that they simply made
| everything louder which did nothing to help him pick out
| what he wanted to hear.
|
| But he's always been picky about his soundscapes, wanting
| the TV muted during ad breaks etc etc.
| xur17 wrote:
| > But he's always been picky about his soundscapes,
| wanting the TV muted during ad breaks etc etc.
|
| I'm with him on this one. Commercials always end up being
| louder than the rest of the content, and are just..
| annoying.
| geocrasher wrote:
| I thought I had hearing loss. I don't. I have Audio
| Processing Disorder. When I found out about APD and read
| its symptom list, I cried. It's me, all over. Between
| that and ADHD I now understand how my brain processes (or
| doesn't process) sound properly and why even a well
| intentioned (but clueless) audiologist told me I had
| "selective hearing".
| vel0city wrote:
| > he found the pair he was fitted with ~20 years ago
| absolutely useless
|
| IKUK but that's like having bad vision so you put on a
| pair of your glasses from 20 years ago, still having bad
| vision, and deciding glasses just don't work well.
| Hearing and vision change over time. And that's assuming
| those were good hearing aids 20 years ago compared to
| what is available today.
|
| I hope your dad ends up taking a chance.
| qup wrote:
| My grandmother did that, as well. She was brilliant, but she
| was reduced to nodding a long, often inappropriately, because
| she couldn't hear.
| josefresco wrote:
| It's rough now that I know it bothers him. Late at night,
| when the house is quiet and it's just you and him, he'll
| talk your ear off and hear every word you say.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > because he feels they amplify things he doesn't want to
| hear.
|
| Could that be your mother-in-law telling him things to do?
|
| Is he afraid of losing plausible deniability - "Sorry, honey,
| I didn't hear that, you know how bad my hearing is."
| phkahler wrote:
| >> he feels they amplify things he doesn't want to hear.
|
| Modern hearing aids can be adjusted to amplify _only_ the
| things you want to hear, and even reduce the things you don
| 't want to hear.
| car wrote:
| Costco is great for this I found out. Free audiogram, and all
| name brand hearing aids.
|
| I used to be like your father-in-law, pride, vanity,
| stubborn, not wanting to be told what to do, whatever it was.
| And my dad was like this too (the hearing loss is heritable),
| I used to mock him about not wanting hearing aids before my
| own hearing declined. When I finally got fitted, it was
| shocking to me how much my hearing had suffered. Suddenly I
| could hear birds and crickets again, and most importantly
| speech!
|
| Maybe you can get your father-in-law to first play around
| with AirPods as hearing aids to win him over to get proper
| ones. The latest generation hearing aids, like the AP's, have
| amazing AI signal processing that will suppress noise and
| enhance speech. It's always cool when my Phonak's detect
| noise and shut it down.
|
| The important thing about hearing loss in elderly, especially
| if someone has an elevated risk of cognitive decline, is the
| resulting social isolation, and the increasing risk of
| dementia [1]. It should be addressed sooner than later.
|
| To sum it up, the AP's have the potential to provide an
| affordable on-ramp for more hearing impaired people to
| experience hearing restoration and warm up to better ones
| (hopefully covered by insurance). I don't think AP's would a
| permanent hearing solution, other than for people who are
| uninsured and can't afford real hearing aids (sadly).
|
| Edit: I could not imagine wearing AP's all day, great as they
| are, while I don't even notice my receiver-in-ear hearing
| aids anymore.
|
| Edit: While AP's are not perfect, having any kind of hearing
| aid is a 100% improvement over having none, which is probably
| also why the FDA allowed OTC hearing aids.
|
| Edit: [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-
| matters/hearing...
| hanniabu wrote:
| > He probably waited 5-10 years too long.
|
| What's the downside of waiting?
| lukas099 wrote:
| Diminished quality of life during the waiting period
| freedomben wrote:
| > _In contrast, the AirPods run out after a few hours and are
| also destined to become landfill due to their built in
| battery._
|
| Also will entrench the user in a walled garden ecosystem from a
| very specific giant tech company that isn't big on making their
| products compatible with other companies.
| systemtest wrote:
| I have no issues using my AirPods on Android.
|
| Automatic device switching doesn't work but that doesn't work
| on my Sony headphones either.
| explorigin wrote:
| +1 on this. I use them with my android phone, steamdeck,
| windows computer, TV. They work great!
| vel0city wrote:
| The new hearing aid features are gatekept behind an iOS
| app. You can't tweak the hearing aid settings without an
| Apple device.
| systemtest wrote:
| The Samsung Galaxy Buds only have 360 audio and the
| better audio codec if you use a Samsung Galaxy
| smartphone. Doesn't even work on other Android devices
| let alone iOS. And as far as I know you can't tweak the
| hearing aid features of Galaxy Buds on any device.
| vel0city wrote:
| If you can't actually tweak audiogram settings, they're
| not really hearing aids. In fact, Samsung doesn't sell
| them as hearing aids and from what I can tell never use
| the term "hearing aid" in any of the marketing, branding,
| or feature listing of the devices.
|
| They're not FDA approved as hearing aids, so they're not
| hearing aids.
|
| Either way, pointing to another company being shitty
| isn't really a good justification of the first company
| being shitty.
| freedomben wrote:
| Just trying to understand your argument: Samsung does it
| so that makes Apple ok? I hear a lot of people argue
| (when defending Samsung, Google Play, etc) that Apple
| does it so it's ok, but not usually the other way around.
| I guess it makes sense that it would devolve into the
| spiderman meme, but the real losers in that are everyone
| else that isn't making money from it.
|
| Personally I thinks it's shitty when anybody does it.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _will entrench the user in a walled garden ecosystem from a
| very specific giant tech company that isn 't big on making
| their products compatible with other companies_
|
| Are you suggesting AirPods aren't Bluetooth 5.3 and aren't
| compatible with Bluetooth audio sources? Or that it doesn't
| play AAC, MP3, and FLAC?
|
| The proprietary capabilities (such as instant smart switching
| between active devices) are all incremental, taking nothing
| away from normal Bluetooth usage.
| korhojoa wrote:
| Seems like a rage bait post but: how do you update the
| firmware without an apple device?
| mcculley wrote:
| You need to do more than update the firmware. You need to
| upload your personal audiogram into the device.
| davweb wrote:
| At an Apple Store[1].
|
| [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/106340
| jajko wrote:
| As mentioned elsewhere you can't tweak its setting outside
| Apple's walled garden.
|
| Better wait for more open competition to catch up unless
| you are already deep in their ecosystem and not intending
| to move.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Do you need your own iphone, or can you use a friend's
| iphone to fix the settings once?
| currency wrote:
| It probably should be your own device; the audiogram ends
| up in the iPhone's health app. It can probably be done by
| someone else if they don't care and don't need to apply a
| different audiogram for themselves.
| detourdog wrote:
| That is some nice integration. Having one's own up to
| date audiogram stored in a health record and available to
| doctors and devices.
| joquarky wrote:
| I was able to use my partner's iPhone to configure some
| settings.
|
| It's frustrating that the settings can't be changed on
| Android, and macOS seems to have a subset of settings
| compared to iOS.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Can you use them as hearing aids without an iPhone?
| whiterknight wrote:
| Is the hearing aid market big on modularity and
| compatibility?
|
| isn't it good to have multiple options so consumers can pick
| what they value?
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| That's an argument against buying an iPhone and AirPods Pro
| together as a combination instead of buying a hearing aid,
| but
|
| - it's not an argument against using AirPods as an aid with
| mild hearing loss if you're already an iPhone user
|
| - it's not _necessarily_ a great argument against buying an
| iPhone and iPods Pro anyway, given that hearing aids can
| easily run hundreds or even thousands of dollars more than
| that combination
|
| - the vast majority of smart phone customers, both on and off
| HN, have either factored "walled garden" into their buying
| considerations at this point or never will
|
| - let's not pretend Samsung is not already trying to figure
| out how to cram this into their next Galaxy Buds for Android
| users anyway, which will somehow work best with Samsung
| phones, not so well with other Android phones, and not at all
| with iPhones, but nobody will really complain about it
| because whatevs, it's not Apple
| dickersnoodle wrote:
| I'm looking forward to this going live. I've worn the "we
| have an app!" BLE enabled hearing aids and am currently
| wearing a pair of amplifiers I got on Amazon for $200 and
| they've lasted almost two years. AirPods Pro + this
| software should make it a lot easier for me to follow
| conversations and filter out high frequency noise (like you
| get when there's nothing but bare walls and ceilings and
| floor space). I mostly ignore the Apple-haters.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| And will put some people off from talking to them. I don't
| talk to people with AirPods stuck in their ears until they
| take them out. Too many times I have tried to start a
| conversation or just say "Hello" but they are oblivious
| because they are on a call or have music or something else
| playing.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| that sounds more like a you problem. i use mine pretty
| frequently as hearing aids, especially in noisy
| environments.
| spaceguillotine wrote:
| Sounds like a feature and not a bug.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| If ever there was an opportunity for apple to earn some easy
| goodwill, it would be opening accessibility features like
| this to other platforms. Keeping accessibility features
| locked to iphones only isn't good optics IMO.
| righthand wrote:
| Most people don't wear hearing aids because they don't like how
| it looks and think their hearing isn't bad enough to warrant
| social stigma from it. I don't see how Airpods solve that
| problem as they are very unsightly, no matter how much pundits
| say they love them.
|
| In fact you mentioning how they are like hearing aids has made
| me justify never wanting a pair.
| rmccue wrote:
| The advantage of AirPods for social stigma is they aren't
| _solely_ hearing aids, so you have a type of (casual)
| plausible deniability about why you 're wearing them. They
| won't draw people's attention in the way that hearing aids
| (because they're different/unique) do.
| righthand wrote:
| But a lot of people don't wear Airpods because they look
| dorky and look like something is growing out of your ears.
| This is what I'm saying, coolness doesn't trump looks even
| if pundits say "I love my Airpods". A lot of people do not
| like wearing headphones for a similar reason.
|
| If i see someone wearing AirPods or headphones my initial
| reaction is they don't want to be talked to or interacted
| with. Even if that's not true and they have passive
| throughput.
| AyyEye wrote:
| Having earpods in while talking is an entirely new and
| worse social stigma than wearing hearing aids.
|
| > you have a type of (casual) plausible deniability about
| why you're wearing them
|
| "He doesnt even give enough of a shit about talking to me
| to remove his earbuds" isn't a good thing.
|
| > They won't draw people's attention in the way that
| hearing aids (because they're different/unique) do.
|
| They won't draw peoples attention in the same way because
| normal humans only begrudgingly interact with people
| wearing earbuds in conversations and only for a bare
| minimum.
|
| I really can't stand this website sometimes. But at least
| you all got the AirPods(tm) branding right instead of just
| calling them earbuds.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| I think that's more of a negative though. I always remove
| Airpods/earbuds if I'm in a situation when I may be
| interacting with others because otherwise I come across as
| rude, uninterested or unsocial, like having a "do not
| disturb" sign on.
|
| Whereas I can see myself wearing a hearing aid (and
| probably need one) because people will recognize that I'm
| not trying to shut them out but I may have difficulty
| hearing.
| alnwlsn wrote:
| If anything, if someone's wearing Airpods, I'm going to
| assume they can't hear anything I'm saying. "oh no he's
| wearing airpods" is a meme for a reason.
| ksenzee wrote:
| > In fact you mentioning how they are like hearing aids has
| made me justify never wanting a pair.
|
| Why? Because hearing aids are unsightly? Are wheelchairs
| unsightly? Canes? Prosthetic legs? It looks to me like this
| idea of what's "unsightly" is being fed by a cultural bias
| against the disabled. Interestingly, glasses were "unsightly"
| a few decades ago, and now they're in fashion. It would be
| nice to see the same thing happen for other assistive tech.
| steve1977 wrote:
| Sonova (Phonak) is Swiss by the way, not Danish.
|
| They also own the consumer of Sennheiser since a couple of
| years.
| car wrote:
| Thanks, I stand corrected.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > In contrast, the AirPods run out after a few hours and are
| also destined to become landfill due to their built in battery.
|
| Just looked up AirPod battery run time. Wow - that's short. I
| have Anker A40 earpods.[1] 10 hours, and the case has enough
| charge for 50 hours. 10 minutes of charging gives you 4 hours.
| They're a lot cheaper than Airpods, so you could easily buy a
| pair (for much cheaper) and be good!
|
| Not sure how accurate they'll be as hearing aids.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B1LPNDGF/?tag=thewire06-20&linkC...
| Iulioh wrote:
| Depends on the form factor and what functions are active.
|
| I'd say 4-6-8 is low-average-high duration for the standard
| form factor and ANC will reduce the duration by 25-30%
|
| 10 hours is exceptionally high, i don't think i even seen
| that claim
|
| But year, they don't even have ANC, they are just a good pair
| of buds, the 10h claim is good.
|
| Pro tip:
|
| You know that a pair of buds is good if they offer
| Multipoint. It is such a hard feature to find in the mid and
| low end market
| pcardoso wrote:
| One of my kids was born with a slight hearing loss and I think
| this is huge.
|
| We got from the local health service some basic hearing aids that
| cost around 1000 euro but we are contemplating buying some high-
| end Phonak devices that are around 5000 euro as recommended by
| some experts.
|
| In comparison to this the AirPods (280 euro?) are almost free.
| tootie wrote:
| OTC hearing aids are now as cheap as $80 USD. I'm sure they're
| not the best, but it makes the tech incredibly accessible.
| Sony, Jabra, Eargo ones are more expensive than airpods, less
| than prescriptions. Not sure how they will stack up to airpods.
|
| https://www.jlab.com/products/hear-otc-hearing-aid-graphite
| systemtest wrote:
| Does your nations healthcare system not cover that?
| amne wrote:
| cue teenagers with "hearing problems" so they must wear the pods
| during classes in 3 .. 2 ..
| dsr_ wrote:
| What's your actual complaint?
|
| Is it that teenagers sometimes have hearing issues? That's
| definitely true; many people are born Deaf or with hearing
| impairments. Some people get injured.
|
| Is it that teenagers might fake having hearing issues in order
| to wear pods? Either they will be paying attention in class or
| they won't; this will be obvious from their grades shortly.
| talldayo wrote:
| The "actual complaint" is that Apple made hearing aids
| indistinguishable from an entertainment device. There's
| nothing wrong with taking initiative to a good thing, but you
| can absolutely pave the road to hell with good intentions.
| People would be rightfully outraged if Tesla drivers could
| ignore the road to play _The Witcher 3_ at 50mph on the
| freeway. Saying something like "either they will crash or
| they won't" isn't going to assuage the problem or change the
| design issue. The danger is going to persist as a result of
| first-party design oversight.
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| Playing video games when you're supposed to be piloting a
| half ton death trap isn't the same as teenagers lying to
| authority.
| autoexec wrote:
| The problem isn't really the lying though is it. It's the
| fact that they're not being educated if they aren't
| paying attention.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Worse. It's probably a bit over 2 tons.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| Just require a doctor's note one time?
| jimbob45 wrote:
| _Is it that teenagers might fake having hearing issues in
| order to wear pods? Either they will be paying attention in
| class or they won 't; this will be obvious from their grades
| shortly._
|
| You can ignore lectures, not participate in teacher-led
| activities, generally be a nuisance, and still get an A such
| that your parents would never catch on to you.
| todotask wrote:
| How do I deal with itchiness? Having trying to wear for a few
| seconds, can be annoying after been wearing hearing aid for
| decade.
| dav43 wrote:
| I am surprised the size of their study where they made
| conclusions was only 118 ppl. I would have thought a much larger
| study is required.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| This is huge. Previously if you were hard of hearing, a pair of
| hearing aids could cost upwards of $2,000. Now Apple just brought
| that price down to ~$250.
|
| Even if you use them everyday and assume a shelf life of 1.5yrs
| (which is roughly mine and others' experience with AirPods), you
| would be replacing your Airpods for 12 years before the cost
| caught up with a single pair of hearing aids.
|
| Even if you think Airpods are not on the same bar as regular
| hearing aids, this will certainly help depress market prices.
| Every manufacturer will probably start releasing sub $1000
| hearing aids just to not get destroyed by Apple.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| > This is huge. Previously if you were hard of hearing, a pair
| of hearing aids could cost upwards of $2,000. Now Apple just
| brought that price down to ~$250.
|
| Woah there fella. Hearing aids last a very long time before
| needing a new battery. AirPods needs to be charged several
| times a day. That's a bit of an inconvenience. As is some
| hearing aids are made to fit one's ear. Where as AirPods are 3
| sizes fits all.
| jeffhuys wrote:
| That's a much, MUCH lower barrier of entry, though, fella...
| and that can be celebrated in my opinion
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| It's helpful, sure, but it's not the same thing.
| echoangle wrote:
| Just to be pedantic: AirPods Pro 2 come with 4 sizes for
| tips. Also, I'm sure you can get third-party tips with
| different shapes if you wanted to.
| some_random wrote:
| A condescending reply showing you didn't read the whole
| comment isn't the best look. The point isn't that they're the
| bestest hearing aids ever, the point is that they are an
| option at all at a tiny fraction of the typical price which
| will force manufacturers to innovate.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| Condescending or not, saying "Now Apple just brought that
| price down to ~$250." is grossly overstating it.
|
| But Apple always gets a pass, so...
| some_random wrote:
| "You can now buy hearing aids (as defined by the FDA) for
| $250" is an objectively true statement, so unless you
| think the FDA is filled with Apple fanboys I have no idea
| what "pass" you think Apple is getting.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| Airpods don't fit in my tiny ear canals. I even bought a
| smaller aftermarket tip and still no luck.
| mitemte wrote:
| Existing hearing aid products are still available for
| purchase for those who want them. I don't think AirPods are
| going to replace hearing aids. Hopefully they lower the
| barrier for entry and perhaps lower the price of existing
| products.
| kstrauser wrote:
| You could buy 2 pairs and swap them out. That would still be
| a 75% discount over the $2000 pair.
|
| This will help more people hear. It might not be the best
| possible solution, but it surely beats not having it.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| > AirPods needs to be charged several times a day. That's a
| bit of an inconvenience.
|
| that's if you wear them all the time. I have hearing
| difficulties and know I need aids even without taking a test.
| But I wouldn't want something in my ear all day long and most
| of the time I don't need to hear better because I'm working
| or whatever. But there are situations where it's hard for me
| to understand what people are saying and that's when I would
| put them on.
|
| So with that in mind the AirPods would work great. It's
| unfortunate that it doesn't work with the regular AirPods
| which are only $100. (I don't have the Pro's).
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| My APPs are still going strong after 4 years. I use them daily,
| but not all day every day. Sure the battery life isn't as good
| as before. But they're still very usable. Am I just really
| lucky?
| ChicagoBoy11 wrote:
| No, that's my experience as well
| cryptoegorophy wrote:
| 1.5? What happens after 1.5 years? Had mine for 5 years, no
| issue and sort of the same battery life or not noticeable to me
| (15% degradation is what I would not notice ) still charge very
| quick in a case.
| CamelCaseName wrote:
| You buy a new hearing aid for another $250 that has another
| 1.5 years worth of technological advancements.
|
| Or maybe you buy multiple instead of just one, so you can
| hotswap any time.
| skybrian wrote:
| There are already cheap hearing aids. Airpod Pros will grow the
| market since they're good for people getting started and okay
| for occasional use, but they aren't good for wearing all day:
| too distracting for people you're talking with, not enough
| battery life.
|
| But now that Apple entered the market, maybe they will come out
| with wireless headphones that are more suitable?
| caeril wrote:
| [edit] Disregard, I forgot that HN has been infested with
| normies with poor reading comprehension. Further posts will
| be strictly technical.
| roywiggins wrote:
| > you're better off with them not in your life.
|
| Offer not valid if it's your in-laws, nurse, kid's teacher,
| your teacher, civil servant who you need to convince, and
| overall anyone in a position of authority or otherwise
| capable of gatekeeping you. You can't always just opt out
| of dealing with people without consequence.
| caeril wrote:
| [edit] Disregard, I forgot that HN has been infested with
| normies with poor reading comprehension. Further posts
| will be strictly technical.
| pdabbadabba wrote:
| > We've homeschooled before, and it would be trivial to
| pull them (and a small portion of the district's funding
| with them) and do it again, and they know it.
|
| You'd homeschool your kids because their teachers find it
| odd that you're wearing AirPods during a conversation? To
| each his own, I guess.
|
| > Nurse? If they commit intentional malpractice, my
| attorney is ready to go.
|
| In what world does subtly judging you for wearing AirPods
| during a conversation qualify as malpractice?
| roywiggins wrote:
| Being summarily pulled out of school isn't _without
| consequence_ , especially to your kid!
| geocrasher wrote:
| Until wearing Airpods during conversation is normalized,
| this will be a problem. Why?
|
| I tried conversing with somebody recently, and they were
| _completely_ ignoring me. Then I saw the Airpods. Of
| course. They have music or something else going on.
|
| For now, Airpods = "I am listening to something other than
| you right now." So yes, if somebody were wearing Airpods as
| a hearing device, I'd probably not talk to them because of
| that expectation.
| pdabbadabba wrote:
| I have bad news for you. Everyone judges people for these
| sorts of fashion choices (though perhaps not that specific
| one). Though some will do so more harshly than others, of
| course, and some enlightened folks will manage never, or
| rarely, to manifest or act on these judgments. And you'll
| absolutely never convince me that you don't make the same
| kinds of snap judgments about people based on things like
| what they're wearing.
|
| It's healthy not to care too much about the fashion
| judgments of others, as you're suggesting. Is I agree with
| your first line. But you're otherwise bringing too black-
| and-white an approach to what is, in my view, an
| unavoidable part of social life.
|
| Edit:
|
| > Disregard, I forgot that HN has been infested with
| normies with poor reading comprehension.
|
| OK. You object strenuously to anyone making any sort of
| judgment about a person wearing AirPods, all of whom should
| be completely cut out of your life, but are happy to throw
| out baseless insults at people who disagree with you in the
| mildest of terms on the internet. Got it.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Do you need an iPhone to use them, or only for the initial
| setup/audiogram?
| mannyv wrote:
| This also means that the Apple ecosystem is HSA and FSA eligible.
| solardev wrote:
| Wait, really? You can use your health savings on a iPhone now?
| mannyv wrote:
| It's much more justifiable now for sure.
| coupdejarnac wrote:
| I made a hearing aid app for the iPhone nearly 10 years ago. It
| was nearly impossible to get anybody to pay $10 or less for
| it.Also, there is/was a FDA exception for mobile apps, which kind
| of obviated the need for the grad school class i was taking at
| Stanford about getting medical devices FDA approved.
| philip1209 wrote:
| Is it possible to spend FSA/HSA funds on medically-necessary
| Apple products/services?
| ganoushoreilly wrote:
| That's a lingering question right now as the software was
| approved, but not specifically the hardware. I suspect it would
| be able to be covered, but as with any of those rules, it's
| kinda murky.
|
| I suspect if it is, we'll see some interesting advertising /
| marketing from 3rd party resellers.
| philip1209 wrote:
| Makes sense. Would be great to see iPhones / Apple Watches
| covered for diabetic CGM users, too.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| It's a very good question and Apple may already have an
| answer.
|
| One of the interesting things I learned in my time building
| medical devices is the role of insurance reimbursement in the
| product development process. Before introducing a new device,
| or a new (blood) test, one of the questions Marketing has to
| answer is how difficult it will be to get reimbursement from
| insurance in the US.
|
| It sounds kind of icky, but it's a real concern.
|
| If insurance companies won't reimburse for a particular test
| or use of a device, then the users are far less likely to buy
| it, or in the case of a test, the physician may have to warn
| the patient that their insurance isn't likely to pay for it.
| This will probably lead the manufacturer to decide that it's
| too risky to proceed with development.
| ohadpr wrote:
| Speaking of the AirPods becoming actual hearing aides - how will
| we reconcile the fact that it is not socially acceptable to wear
| AirPods when speaking with someone?
|
| Even if you get to explain 'oh my AirPods are functioning as a
| hearing aide' you likely won't be able to explain that to other
| people noticing the conversation and thinking to themselves 'oh
| that's douchey, not taking our your AirPods when talking to
| someone'.
|
| I just really wonder if this will be able to make wearing AirPods
| while talking to other people socially acceptable because the
| current presumption is likely that they are not behaving nicely.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Related:
|
| _AirPods Pro 2 adds 'clinical grade' hearing aid feature_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491191
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Related Apple study from May:
|
| _Apple Hearing Study shares preliminary insights on tinnitus_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41491121
| detourdog wrote:
| I see this as a major advance for ADA compliance for headphones.
| This may take a few years but audiogram editing is going to
| become minimal specification.
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