[HN Gopher] DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine
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DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine
Author : ragebol
Score : 267 points
Date : 2024-09-12 19:00 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.diypresso.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.diypresso.com)
| ragebol wrote:
| Came accross this cool idea. Downside is I don't like coffee,
| much less espresso
| xeromal wrote:
| Great find!
| MostlyStable wrote:
| looks like it got hugged to death, and the archive.org snapshots
| are from when it was "under construction"
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| It's loading for me alright. Still seems to be very much under
| construction. The page for the main product is 404-ing for me.
|
| I would provide an archive.is link but it rendered the page
| VERY poorly.
|
| The product looks pretty cool, and I bet it will be pretty
| expensive.
|
| Here's the project's GitHub link (also very early in it's life
| cycle, hopefully): https://github.com/diyPresso/diyPresso-One
| wkirby wrote:
| Love it. There's a surprising amount of hackability in espresso
| machines -- reminds me a lot of bicycles as an approachably fun
| tinkering project.
| Bluecobra wrote:
| Do you know of any resources to help learn bicycles? I wish I
| could tune my own bicycle but can't seem to figure it out. I
| can build my own computer, change the oil in my car, paint a
| house, etc. but my bicycle always befuddles me.
| redsky17 wrote:
| Sheldon Browns website is a treasure trove of information!
| It's an old school website, but the content is there.
|
| https://www.sheldonbrown.com
| nick3443 wrote:
| Talk to the folks at your local bike shop, and they can 1)
| tell you what type of parts your bike has so you can find the
| right resources 2) refer you to local groups who work on
| bikes like "bike kitchens" 3) sell you parts and tools you
| may need.
|
| Also, friends who work on bikes are usually happy to help!
| mauvehaus wrote:
| > Talk to the folks at your local bike shop...
|
| Yes, definitely, but please remember that while we love
| talking bikes, if you make a habit of discussing the
| purchase of an $8 set of brake pads for 20 minutes, we'll
| mysteriously disappear the next time you walk in.
| GuinansEyebrows wrote:
| Besides Sheldon Brown, look for community bike shops in your
| area! They often need volunteers to help out with all kinds
| of things and you'll get direct exposure to a huge variety of
| bike tech and really knowledgeable folks who live and breathe
| bikes.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| It's a learning curve. Start with the bits of regular
| maintenance you need to do, and go on YouTube to learn how to
| do it. Besides Sheldon Brown's webpage, Park Tools make great
| maintenance tutorials.
|
| Start with tuning brakes, to changing chains, and tuning
| derailleurs, changing cables, taking bits off for cleaning.
|
| It will feel cumbersome, and a few times you will get
| yourself into a mess and end up taking a more-broken bike to
| the shop. But you'll get there eventually.
| a_f wrote:
| Sheldon is a great resource as mentioned already, although it
| will not include information on newer components.
|
| I really like the park tool website and videos for step by
| step instructions. RJ the bike guy on Youtube also has some
| good instructionals too.
|
| I found most of the difficulty is identifying which
| components and/or standards your bike is using, rather than
| the process of fixing.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Another vote for Sheldon Brown, but I'd also recommend
| searching on YouTube for how to do various maintenance jobs.
| Once you've watched a few videos, you'll soon learn the
| terminology for the various parts.
| sybercecurity wrote:
| Also get a copy of the Big Blue Book of Bicycle Repair from
| Park tools. A good reference before the Internet. There are
| other good books as well that cover specific parts - The
| Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt is good too if you want to go
| really in depth on spoked wheels.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| Just about any book on the subject will be adequate to get
| the basics. There's also nearly nothing on a bicycle you can
| screw up in a way that you can't in-screw it up by turning
| the screw in the other direction (exception: wheel trueing,
| but even that you have to blow pretty bad to taco a rim). If
| you get into rebuilding mountain bike suspension, this
| doesn't apply, but that shouldn't be your first project
| anyway. Oh yeah, and hydraulic brakes probably also wouldn't
| be a great first project.
|
| Get a book and start experimenting. Plan on re-doing some
| work.
|
| Maybe find a way to hold the bike without investing in a work
| stand if you're over thirty. I've done a lot of work on the
| side of the road while bike touring, but that doesn't hold
| much appeal these days if I have another choice.
|
| ETA: get a tube of bike grease from Park and a bottle of
| chain lube (Tri-Flow is fine, and so is everything else).
| Those'll cover your lubricant needs for years.
| freestyle24147 wrote:
| Can anyone explain how this is still a valid question in 2024
| with all of the resources we have at our disposal? Google,
| Youtube, books, ChatGPT.
| criddell wrote:
| They are looking for specific recommendations. There are
| lots of resources out there and Sturgeon's Law means it's
| still difficult to find really great sources.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I love espresso. But I don't think I'd be interested in a DIY
| option.
|
| I tend to use Nespresso, especially now that the cups are simply
| available in the shop (and cheap aftermarket options), it's
| pretty perfect.
|
| I know the manual process is more environmentally friendly but
| when I wake up in the morning I have no headspace for fussing
| with coffee grinds. I just need good coffee right away. And I
| don't even own a car or anything nor have kids so my footprint is
| pretty low.
| kwanbix wrote:
| Aren't these things one of the most contaminant things you can
| have in the kitchen? Even the inventor regrets doing it.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/k-cup-creator-john-sylvan-r...
|
| Or is this different?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Nespresso pods are readily recycled aluminium, rather than
| the plastic of K-Cups.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| How many places actually accept them though?
|
| Also nestle is a terrible company for the environment and
| human rights.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > How many places actually accept them though?
|
| The company itself has a recycling program; you can mail
| them and some stores accept them.
|
| > Also nestle is a terrible company for the environment
| and human rights.
|
| Agreed, but so's pretty much everything else we buy.
| robrtsql wrote:
| The current status, IIRC, is that recycling in New York
| accepts Nespresso pods, and in the rest of the US,
| Nespresso offers free pre-paid shipping bags which you
| can fill with used pods and drop off at UPS, who will
| then return them to Nespresso for recycling. They also
| accept pods at their store locations.
|
| Not sure what the deal is in other parts of the world, if
| Nespresso is sold there.
| spzb wrote:
| I use one of these
| https://www.dualit.com/products/ecopress-aluminium-
| capsule-r...
|
| It separates the aluminium pod and the coffee grounds so
| you can recycle the former and compost the latter.
| dbt00 wrote:
| It's not the identical product but it's fairly similar.
| Nespresso accepts their used pods back for recycling, and
| they are made out of metal and not just plastic, but they are
| owned Nestle and who knows how well they actually recycle
| that shit.
| hocuspocus wrote:
| They're serious about recycling, but many consumers are
| not.
|
| I'm in Switzerland where recycling Nespresso pods couldn't
| be easier, and we barely reach a 2/3 recycling rate. US and
| global rates are much lower.
|
| If Nestle hadn't crippled their machines on purpose, I'd
| think third party plastic capsules might be a better option
| in Europe at least, since they end up in waste co-
| processing.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| >If Nestle hadn't crippled their machines on purpose
|
| Nestle invented an entirely new way to brew coffee AGAIN
| just to extra lock down their pod system from independent
| competition.
|
| The built all this wankery about spinning the pods at
| like 30k rpm to "force the water through the coffee like
| an espresso machine" but it _doesn't_. As Mr Hoffman
| discussed, the foam it creates is just aerated coffee,
| which is substantially different than the foam you get
| from _actually_ putting water through coffee at high
| pressure. All this to get a patent on a physical process
| so that competitors cannot drive the price of their pods
| down.
|
| And the coffee still tastes like shit. And the machine
| takes a long time. And it makes a stupid and annoying
| noise. The system is demonstrably worse than any other
| pod based system because it was more important to Nestle
| that they get their pod profit margins than you get
| acceptable coffee.
|
| Like seriously this should be a crime, not a civil
| infraction, _a crime_ to artificially lock out
| competition like this.
| hocuspocus wrote:
| I haven't really seen those in the wild yet.
|
| On the other hand there are plenty of cheap original
| Nespresso machines pretty much everywhere in Switzerland.
| In some countries Nestle was virtually giving them away
| around 2010~2015. Shortly after, some patents expired and
| third party brands started selling plastic capsules, and
| Nestle had to fight back and make their machines work
| poorly with these!
|
| As far as I know all patents have expired now, and a few
| third party brands sell 100% compatible aluminium
| capsules.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| > As far as I know all patents have expired now
|
| Even the integrated gasket patent?
|
| There's still the proprietary secret of how they grind
| the coffee. Which nobody has successfully replicated
| meaning that all else being equal you still don't get
| exactly the same result.
|
| That being said, from my experience with genuine
| nespresso pods in genuine nespresso machines, they taste
| nothing like espresso and nothing like a good coffee.
| hocuspocus wrote:
| Ah, good point, I agree regarding the taste, I enjoy
| proper espresso or go the other extreme (filter, pour-
| over).
|
| Over extracted, pressurized espresso with capsules or
| even most semi-autos is disappointing.
| rescbr wrote:
| Those are the Vertuo line, I believe they focus to sell
| it in the US market, since it is able to do way longer
| extractions. It goes up to 500 mL extractions or so.
|
| I don't like it, I think Original Nespresso tastes way
| better. Of course nothing compared to a good espresso
| extraction, but for a quick sip it is good enough.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Yes the pods can also be much bigger on the Vertuo. It's
| much more optimised for bigger coffees a la starbucks.
| Not for espresso.
|
| But the main point of it is that they were able to create
| new patents and milk them for their duration.
| nephanth wrote:
| You also have to bring them back to a nespresso shop, or
| mail them, which is a hassle . So I'd be willing to bet
| most people don't do it. Some companies might, mine doesn't
| kube-system wrote:
| > The first market was the office coffee service market," he
| said, adding he is "absolutely mystified" by his product's
| popularity in homes.
|
| After reading this, the invention made a lot more sense.
| K-cups seem to be a better choice for outside of the home
| where someone might want a single cup on demand with no prep
| or cleanup. Like waiting rooms, offices, hotels, etc.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| That's Keurig. We don't have this in Europe.
|
| We do have other plastic pod ones like Nescafe Dolce Gusto.
| The nespresso one is using aluminium pods.
| doawoo wrote:
| Just based on how horrible of a company Nestle is, I usually
| encourage everyone to investigate some other options to make
| espresso at home.
|
| Side Note: Personally, making my coffee is a nice process in
| the morning to kick my brain out of that early fog, it's
| something I have to engage with, but also something you can
| learn and get _very_ quick at to the point where you don't need
| much headspace to do it, not every espresso shot needs to be
| 1000% perfect.
|
| The ritual of making it in the morning almost wakes me up as
| much as the coffee does :)
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I'm not really paying Nestle though.
|
| I buy aftermarket cups (10 for 2 euro 50, less than half the
| price of their own cups!) and the machine is made by Krups. I
| use those same cups at work because they removed all the
| coffee machines and put nespressos in place of them. The
| reason was that the machine coffee was so horrible everyone
| started bringing their own nespresso machine (they had a
| really good deal at the time). So now they just provide those
| in the office. The company I work for is too cheap to pay for
| coffee for us.
|
| But for me it wouldn't work to do it manually. My house is a
| huge mess most of the time and messing with grinds etc
| requires more space.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| If you're using aftermarket pods then you should use an
| aftermarket machine too, nespresso puts the gasket required
| to build pressure on the pod itself, and this gasket is
| patented preventing aftermarket pods from having the same
| gasket design. Since the gasket is on the pod it is not on
| the machine meaning that stock nespresso machines will have
| issues with aftermarket pods. Some aftermarket machines
| have their own seal, which compensates for this problem
| when using aftermarket pods.
|
| For more info see:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HouzvJGazs4
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Ah I had indeed felt the rubbery layer inside the rim
| before. I was wondering what that was about.
|
| I don't have any issues with it though. But if my machine
| breaks I'll buy an aftermarket machine. Good point!
|
| I wonder if the older machines also have this issue by
| the way.
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| It sounds like you are the perfect customer for them but when
| your machine craps itself I would suggest checking out
| something like the Breville Barista models. I have the Pro
| version which has the grinder built in and I've found it makes
| far nicer coffees than the pods and there is minimal faffing
| around due to everything being integrated in the one machine.
| agarren wrote:
| I've had a Breville Barista Express model for years and it's
| been perfect. Daily use (4-8 doubles), easy to clean, very
| consistent shots. I'm definitely a fan.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I'm not convinced on autogrinders. One of my friends had one
| (A Jura) of 1000+ euro and the coffee was no better.
| Eventually the grinder crapped out and the replacement cost
| 3/4 of the machine price.
|
| He's now drinking Nespresso like me :)
|
| Breville doesn't seem to be a common brand here in Europe but
| I see it is a lot cheaper. Nothing like the 80 euro of a
| Nespresso machine though (which has also lasted me 10 years
| despite never descaling it).
| Arch-TK wrote:
| The breville/sage machines are not "autogrinders" they're
| normal espresso machines with a grinder built into the same
| housing (which you can use stand alone) which you use to
| fill a portafilter basket and which you then need to tamp.
|
| Machines which grind internally and produce a coffee fully
| automatically can be configured to produce decent coffee,
| but it's not exactly easy.
| morsch wrote:
| You can get a De'Longhi Magnifica S super automatic for
| ~260 EUR on sale. Quite reliable. More convenient than an a
| Nespresso. Cheaper to operate. Less waste.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I don't know if it's really as convenient though.
|
| What I tend to do is drink "half-caf", I take 1 pod decaf
| and 1 pod normal in the same cup. It looks like for this
| one I'd have to change out the bean reservoir every time
| (or mix normal beans with decaf beans somehow).
|
| It would probably be cheaper though yeah. Even the
| aftermarket cups still cost me 25c. I'll have more of a
| look at it once my current machine fails (it's going on
| 10 years now).
| bialpio wrote:
| What we do when mixing beans in our breville is we keep
| the grinder empty and only add beans after weighting them
| for a single serving. For a split-shot, I'd just add ~9g
| of caffeinated beans, pull a shot and then pull a 2nd one
| with ~9g of decaf, or more likely just mix 19g of beans
| and pull a double shot. It is more hassle than just using
| pods tho...
| ben7799 wrote:
| Well the bigger problem with Nespresso is the coffee/espresso
| tastes horrible _and_ you have to deal with the waste.
| tssva wrote:
| Based upon the sales of Nespresso machines and pods a lot of
| people seem to disagree with you regarding the taste.
| talldayo wrote:
| People don't buy Nespresso for the taste, they buy it for
| the convenience. If it was actually a superior method of
| serving coffee, then everyone would use it. Alas.
| kube-system wrote:
| > If it was actually a superior method of serving coffee,
| then everyone would use it.
|
| If there's anything that "everyone uses" it's the
| venerable Mr. Coffee 10/12 Cup drip brewers that have
| dominated the US market for 40+ years. They're popular
| for many reasons, but today, superior taste isn't one of
| them.
| tssva wrote:
| People wouldn't use Nespresso pods if they found them to
| be horrible tasting, as you claim they are, no matter how
| convenient they are. They use them because they both
| enjoy the taste and find them convenient.
|
| Most people like the taste of Nespresso pods, k-cups,
| drip coffee and Starbucks. The sales of all 4 reflect
| that.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| They taste horrible compared to a good coffee, but they
| do taste better than crappy coffee shop espresso served
| in any country where espresso is not a common drink.
| tssva wrote:
| Plenty of people find them to be quite tasty and many
| people don't particularly like what you are calling good
| coffee. Coffee snobbery is like most snobbery it says
| more about the person being snobby.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| You don't know what I am calling a good coffee. I
| appreciate some people don't like particularly sour
| coffee because it's unusual for them but you can do a lot
| better than nespresso in the realm of that style of
| darker roast coffee too.
|
| It's really simple, people are happy with it because
| actually good coffee is so rare that they have nothing to
| compare against. I also doubt most of these people have
| ever drank a well brewed light roast espresso anyway so I
| think your blanket statement about "many people don't
| particularly like what you are calling good coffee" is
| bullshit.
| tssva wrote:
| Or maybe they have tried it and don't like it. Maybe it
| is your taste that is screwed up and that is why you like
| light roast espresso. But either way even if Neapresso
| isn't the best coffee it isn't horrible.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| > Or maybe they have tried it and don't like it.
|
| The vast majority of people have not tried well brewed
| coffee. Of those who have tried well brewed coffee, the
| vast majority have not tried well brewed light roast. The
| main reason is similar to how most people have not tried
| well prepared food. The reason is not, as you seem to
| insinuate, because I am a coffee snob who is incapable of
| conceding that different people have different tastes.
| Another reason is because in most of the world people
| drink coffee with various inclusions like heaps of sugar
| (Italy) and heaps of milk (the rest of the world) and
| because, as a result, almost no cafe out there optimises
| for black coffee outside of countries like Italy.
|
| Most people who drink coffee black (even in Italy) seem
| to do it either because they got used to how bad it
| tastes, or because of dietary reasons, or because they
| feel it makes them look more manly.
|
| > Maybe it is your taste that is screwed up and that is
| why you like light roast espresso.
|
| Again, you are assuming completely incorrectly and
| baselessly that I am claiming that light roast espresso
| is better than nespresso pods. I am not claiming this in
| the slightest. I am claiming that any good dark roast
| espresso is miles ahead of anything you can get out of a
| nespresso pod. Both in terms of not tasting like wood and
| in terms of not tasting like light roast.
|
| Even petrol station cafes in Italy can produce much
| better results than a Nespresso machine and Italy
| continues to love drinking dark roasted Robusta/Arabica
| blends with heaps of sugar.
|
| Likewise, any petrol station cafe in Italy can produce
| espresso which is so much better than what you can get in
| a Starbucks that it's difficult to conceive of why
| Starbucks even offers espresso any more. (And again, this
| is me talking about coffee in a country where people are
| used to drinking dark roast and would also likely be at
| least weirded out by the taste of light roast coffee.)
|
| > But either way even if Nespresso isn't the best coffee
| it isn't horrible.
|
| It's horrible in comparison to a high quality brew in the
| same way that McDonalds is horrible compared to anything
| you would get at a well respected high end restaurant.
|
| You only think it's not horrible because you have limited
| experience. Yes, even in the realm of dark roast
| espresso.
|
| Edit: I would also like you to consider the possibility
| that you personally (and maybe most people) simply do not
| have a sense of taste which is discerning enough to taste
| the difference between what someone with a more
| discerning taste would consider "good" coffee versus
| "horrible" coffee. This doesn't mean that we can't make
| quality judgements about coffees once they're above a
| certain level of awfully bitter/sour/astringent and
| unpleasant, but it does mean that maybe for you and for
| the vast majority of people, you shouldn't worry about
| "excellent" coffee and should instead just get on with
| your life.
|
| I would like to just state that I am overjoyed to hear
| that you have found coffee you like to drink every day.
| There are lots of people out there whose experience of
| coffee has always been terrible (and it is my belief that
| most of them, with some help to explore, could probably
| find something they find inoffensive or even tasty). But
| rather than telling people who seem care more about
| coffee than you that they are snobs and their opinions of
| coffee are wrong, maybe you should also accept that not
| everyone has the same sense of taste as you.
|
| I know the above sounds contradictory when I called
| Starbucks and Nespresso "horrible" but I would like to
| clarify things by saying that while I find Nespresso
| horrible in the grand scheme of things, if it makes you
| happy, you shouldn't listen to my opinion of it and
| instead enjoy it.
|
| On the other hand, if you do find coffee to be generally
| unpleasant, horrible, or even sub-par, then I encourage
| you to explore and consider opening your mind to the
| possibility that there is a coffee out there that you
| would enjoy.
|
| Every morning I make a coffee for someone I love, which I
| would personally not enjoy drinking very much, but which
| she enjoys immensely. I offer her to try the coffee I
| like, and on most occasions she is either indifferent
| about it or hates it and this is fine, I do not try to
| explain to her that she is wrong, I just try to cater to
| her particular tastes with a high quality coffee and
| preparation method that she likes.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| > Most people who drink coffee black (even in Italy) seem
| to do it either because they got used to how bad it
| tastes, or because of dietary reasons, or because they
| feel it makes them look more manly.
|
| That's a pretty big generalisation IMO.
|
| I just like coffee black because I tried it one time
| (there was no sugar) and I was surprised how nice it
| tasted. The only time I drink it with sugar now is with
| the typical Spanish "cafe con hielo" in summer because
| the cold brings out the bitterness more. I've never taken
| milk because I hate it in general.
|
| But I truly like it. I've always hated the starbucks
| "milkshake" idea of coffee and I like it strongly
| tasting.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| It's not a generalisation, it's an observation, most
| people do not drink black coffee. Even in Italy. And most
| of those that do, when asked, seem to provide a
| justification not based in flavour.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| > I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour
| coffee
|
| Is that normal in 'good' espresso? I've had some coffee
| from shops with a particularly sour taste and I don't
| like it. It's not really because it's 'unusual' to me, I
| just really don't like it.
|
| PS: I don't drink it with milk nor sugar. Just plain
| espresso with nothing (just in the morning I do like it
| americano with water). I like the strong taste and I hate
| milk :)
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Some level of acidity is normal in any coffee, an
| increased level is common to lighter roasts. You can get
| a good darker roast espresso which won't be very
| noticeably acidic or you can get a good lighter roast
| espresso which tastes like fruit juice. At that point
| it's a personal preference.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I don't disagree about snobbery, but there's a huge
| difference between drinks such as instant coffee, drip-
| machine coffee and correctly brewed, fresh coffee.
|
| I can't bring myself to drink instant coffee any more and
| will choose any kind of tea in preference to having to
| suffer the insult of instant "coffee". Drip-machine
| coffee at least uses real coffee, but in most people's
| hands leads to a horribly over-extracted brew and
| typically it's using supermarket-bought stale pre-ground
| coffee.
|
| If you want to taste nice/good coffee, it can be made
| relatively cheaply. Buy some whole roasted beans (pre-
| ground coffee goes stale before it even hits the
| supermarket shelves), a decent hand burr grinder and an
| Aeropress device.
|
| If you want to go for an electric bean grinder, ensure
| that it's a burr grinder as blade grinders are not
| suitable - they produce a wide variety of particle sizes
| which means that the small/dust bits get over-extracted
| and the larger particles are under-extracted. You could
| try sieving out the unwanted larger and smaller bits, but
| it's easier to just get a good grinder. For using an
| Aeropress, you can get away with a "cheaper" burr
| grinder, but if you want to make home espressos, then you
| probably want to be spending a LOT on a decent grinder as
| that will make the most difference to the quality of the
| espresso.
| tssva wrote:
| For a lot of people it is a difference without a
| distinction. Different strokes for different folks.
|
| I myself make my morning coffee in a moka pot and prefer
| it over for example a pour over coffee. I recently got a
| Ninja Luxe Cafe machine which I use for espresso and fast
| cold brew coffee drinks. It makes decent espresso and the
| money, time and mental energy for getting a slightly
| better espresso through a more expensive machine is just
| not worth it to me. At my gitlfriend's I drink Nespresso
| because that is what she has. It tastes fine. It is
| definitely not horrible as many above have claimed.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I don't have a problem with people choosing to drink
| instant "coffee", but there's such a clear difference
| that and actual coffee, no matter the preparation method.
|
| I'd agree that getting better quality espressos can get
| expensive very quickly, and moka pots make very nice
| coffee for the price (definitely diminishing returns for
| high end equipment).
|
| To me, the best bang for your buck comes with grinding
| beans to order, as that means that your coffee isn't
| oxidising so much before you even brew it. Personally,
| I'm a fan of immersion brewing techniques, so an
| Aeropress is my weapon of choice - it's relatively cheap
| and can make outstanding coffee (also highly portable - I
| take it along with a hand grinder when camping).
|
| And sorry, but I do find Nespresso to taste very flat and
| stale the few times that I've tried it. I'd rather just
| have a good cup of tea than a stale cup of coffee.
| amelius wrote:
| You can actually get accustomed to the bad taste. It
| happened to me. But then I started drinking coffee at
| work again and out went my nespresso machine.
| tssva wrote:
| Or you just have different tastes. Your taste isn't
| necessarily any better. It is just different. I like
| brussel sprouts and many find them disgusting. Doesn't
| mean my taste is better than theirs.
| amelius wrote:
| No, I started drinking better coffee at work and hence
| found out that I was accustomed to drinking bad coffee.
| tssva wrote:
| Or you just discovered you personally prefer that coffee.
| Just because that is your preference doesn't make someone
| else's preference bad.
| amelius wrote:
| Well, I tried a lot of the different Nespresso options,
| also the Starbucks cups.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| People still buy supermarket instant. I think the problem
| is actually that people don't know what good coffee tastes
| like, nor do they care.
| tssva wrote:
| If it tastes good to them then it is good coffee. Could
| it just be case of different strokes for different folks
| and some wanting to feel superior?
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Or they have no perspective. See my other comment.
| tssva wrote:
| That comment definitely makes me lean towards you just
| liking to feel superior.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Or maybe it is you who likes to feel superior to people
| with an interest in coffee?
|
| e.g. "It makes decent espresso and the money, time and
| mental energy for getting a slightly better espresso
| through a more expensive machine is just not worth it to
| me."
|
| If you think that time, money and experience can only
| produce a "slightly better espresso" then I will just say
| you are not experienced enough to make such a claim.
| Rather than accepting that maybe to some there is a big
| difference, you call them snobs.
| karolist wrote:
| I'd argue most people don't even like coffee, they drink
| it for the caffeine.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| I think I would agree that most people don't like their
| experience of black coffee.
|
| Whether that's because there is no coffee or brewing
| method out there that, when served black, would satisfy
| them, or because they've just not had the chance to taste
| what they would consider good coffee, of that I am not
| sure.
| woodpanel wrote:
| After paying a monthly premium for my coffee-lifestyle of
| I'd say 100-200 EURs just by buying most premium sorts of
| beans for ages, not including drinking at cliche hip
| coffee bars of competition-winning baristas (face-tatooed
| mustaches are to be expected) and having endless
| discussions about taste and techniques with the average
| tech co-worker, I happily reverted to the one and only,
| un-hipersterable, supermarket instant.
|
| I do know how good coffee tastes like and would say: It's
| not worth it.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| > It's not worth it.
|
| For you.
|
| Please add that last bit, as it makes the difference
| between a statement and an opinion.
|
| I am happy for you that you tried things and decided they
| were not worth it for you. At least you took it a step
| further than a lot of people who hold such opinions about
| speciality coffee. But I think you should open your mind
| to the idea that the people who think it IS worth it are
| not just pretending.
| talldayo wrote:
| Bingo. My barista opinion is that every Nespresso tastes like
| a Cafe Americano a-la Keurig. You can buy a $4 bag of Cafe
| Bustelo (pre-ground) and get both better tasting _and_
| cheaper espresso. If anyone in this thread is considering a
| Nespresso /Keurig, I'd highly recommend they consider a
| similarly-priced espresso machine for multiple reasons.
| Compared to ESE (easy serve espresso), Nespresso is the
| Juicero of coffee.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| If you make it a long drink yes (which you shouldn't as it
| overextracts). If you run it on the short program it's
| pretty strong. At least with local pods here in Spain.
| hocuspocus wrote:
| Following Nespresso's own recommendations, the shortest
| program is still pulling 25 ml through <6g of coffee.
|
| A far cry from a proper 1:2 espresso, let alone
| ristretto.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Yeah ristretto it's not. But I do like some liquid and
| not too much caffeine.
|
| I usually drink doubles with 1 normal and 1 decaf so I
| don't end up bouncing :P
| wkat4242 wrote:
| It's not bad, many real espressos I buy in local coffee shops
| for a euro (This is Spain, things are cheap) are worse.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| If you're not in a country where people regularly drink
| espresso then this is the problem you will find with
| literally every single non-specialty coffee shop. That
| being said, while crap coffee shop espresso is worse than
| nespresso, nespresso is still trash in compared to an
| espresso someone put in even 10 minutes of effort into
| dialling in.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| But Spain is a country where people regularly drink
| espresso. It's the standard coffee type here :)
|
| Yet Nespresso (well mostly the aftermarket capsules) is
| very popular here.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| I mean, Nespresso is also very popular in Italy despite
| it tasting strictly worse than anything you can get even
| at the worst cafes there but I think it's because
| drinking espresso with sugar is very popular in Italy and
| sugar goes an incredible way towards making a lot of
| mediocre espresso taste the same as good espresso
| (because the sugar is overpowering).
| wkat4242 wrote:
| People in Spain don't generally put a lot of sugar in
| their coffee. They do often take a bit of milk though,
| not a lot (it's called 'cortado').
|
| But coffee culture in Italy vs Spain is distinctly
| different despite both enjoying espressos. Italy takes
| their coffee much more seriously (and really, all foods
| and drinks in general). Whereas in Spain they don't
| really care so much. Like pizza with pineapple, or
| cutting spaghetti with a knife, if you do similar things
| with Spanish food (e.g. like paella with vegetables)
| people don't care - except the Valencians :)
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| The main worst thing about Nespresso capsules is the waste
| and the staleness. The two worst things about Nespresso are
| the waste, the staleness and the expense. The three worst
| things about Nespresso are the waste, the staleness and the
| expense and supporting such a corrupt mega-corporation.
| Amongst the worst things about Nespresso... hold on, I'll
| come in again.
| fransje26 wrote:
| Please think of the shareholders and let yourself out.
| nikkwong wrote:
| To chime in on the litany of reasons why this is not a good
| idea--sifting boiling water through plastic is _not_ safe for
| consumption as plastic nano and micro-particles will leech from
| the plastic into the liquid. This happens _by design_ when
| using these pods, meaning you are getting a small serving of
| plastic every morning, alongside your coffee. What a moronic
| design.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Nespresso cups (even the aftermarket ones these days) are
| aluminium, not plastic.
| nikkwong wrote:
| The cup itself may be aluminum, but there is a plastic
| lining on the inside of the cup and on the inside of the
| lid that keeps the coffee from coming into direct contact
| with the aluminum--just like in canned foods
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I hate to defend Nestle, but they claim that the coating
| is shellac.
|
| https://easytoespresso.com/are-nespresso-pods-safe/
| Arch-TK wrote:
| While it's likely not wrong that these things produce a bunch
| of suspended microplastics in your drink, we actually still
| don't know how unsafe microplastics are so I don't think you
| can outright state it is unsafe (not saying we shouldn't be
| worried about microplastics, I certainly am looking forward
| to more research on the topic to determine their impact
| because I am also worried, but it's just fear mongering to
| call it "unsafe")
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| > we actually still don't know how unsafe microplastics are
|
| That's the problem though. We're all test subjects for a
| worldwide experiment to put microplastices _everywhere_ and
| see what happens. It seems incredibly unlikely that they
| don 't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and
| our bodies.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| >We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to
| put microplastices everywhere and see what happens.
|
| Honestly, I think if you think about it and look around,
| we are test subjects for a whole swathe of worldwide
| experiments of various kinds. At some point you have to
| just realise that it's the cost of progress.
|
| I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but
| statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they
| don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and
| our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does
| nothing, but it's more than likely (all things
| considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.
|
| I wish I had a better reply than "deal with it" but you
| live on a planet with lots of other people and that
| includes dealing with pollutants you have no control
| over. All we can do is demand research be done on these
| things so we can progress while mitigating the risks as
| they come up. It would truly be wrong to just ignore
| microplastics and assume they're safe. But it is also
| alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative
| impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.
|
| Think of it this way, while we don't fully understand how
| microplastics affect us, if they were shortening our
| lifespan by a significant amount we would probably
| already know about it.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| > I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but
| statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they
| don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and
| our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does
| nothing, but it's more than likely (all things
| considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.
|
| I don't see how you can evaluate the cost of using
| plastics everywhere when the biggest benefit is simply to
| increase profits for huge corporations that don't have to
| worry about cleaning up after themselves.
|
| > But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a
| significant negative impact without any evidence for such
| a negative impact.
|
| I don't think it is alarmist to decry putting
| microplastics with unknown effects, into literally
| everywhere, including people's brains and mothers' breast
| milk. It's an obviously stupid thing to do - "we don't
| know what this does, let's pollute the entire planet with
| it and see what happens".
|
| > if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant
| amount we would probably already know about it.
|
| That seems overly optimistic to me. There's plenty of
| nasty chemicals/products that were sold for long periods
| of time before we eventually realised the damage that we
| were doing. e.g. lead in fuel, asbestos in buildings,
| tobacco usage etc. We have already noticed the direct
| harm that PFAs cause to human development and yet you
| seem happy to carry on spreading microplastics everywhere
| without requiring any evidence that they are safe.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Espresso machines are made from copper, brass, and chrome.
| The chrome plating typically comes off quickly from the
| filter handles, exposing the bare brass to the coffee. All
| that stuff ends up in your coffee (where else should it go?).
| This means that espresso is pretty much guaranteed to contain
| copper, zinc, lead, chrome, nickel.
|
| I'm not sure that is safer than the microplastics or
| aluminium from coffee capsules.
|
| Fully stainless steel machines are probably the best option,
| but there are very few of those around (and they would
| probably still leak nickel).
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I hate to defend Nestle, but they claim that the coating is
| shellac.
|
| https://easytoespresso.com/are-nespresso-pods-safe/
| woodpanel wrote:
| I would actually like to have a DIY nespresso machine or an
| option to this DIYespresso to allow for easily making use of a
| nespresso cup's content.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| If you're interested in experimenting with coffee drinks and
| technology, then why would you want to be stuck with buying
| the stale pre-ground coffee that's typically sold in the
| nespresso cups?
|
| (In theory, you could experiment with grinding and filling a
| user-fillable nespresso type capsule, but you'd get so much
| more flexibility and quality by not being tied to that
| specific design)
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| This is needed now that Gagguino in a petty bit of drama is no
| longer offering source code, and locking into hardware suppliers.
|
| _Gaggiuino Gen 3 is free to use and will offer free software
| updates, but the source code is no longer available._
|
| _This decision was made to maintain high standards for the
| hardware required for the project and prevent individuals from
| fracturing the community with subpar, non-standard components and
| processes that were untenable for Gaggiuino's community-driven
| support to accommodate._
|
| _Sincerely,_ *The GAGGIUINO Team
|
| https://gaggiuino.github.io/#/?id=home
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Honestly the whole Gaggiuino situation is so stupid it's
| unbelievable.
|
| Let's use "Gagguino" to mean "the authors of the original
| Gagguino" and "Faceuino" to mean "the guy on facebook" just to
| make it easier to explain the situation:
|
| Faceuino started selling his own kit based on the Gaggiuino
| designs with some modifications. Since the code and the designs
| (models and PCB) were permissively licensed, this was done at a
| profit. The kit came with instructions but unfortunately had
| some issues which caused weird integration problems which
| increased the support load for Gagguino.
|
| Gagguino could have handled this incident normally: Reaching
| out to Faceuino to explain that his modifications caused
| integration issues which were causing a support load on
| Gagguino. And warning Faceuino that unless he handles support
| for his own commercial venture correctly that Gagguino will
| officially announce that Faceuino makes broken kits and that
| people wanting to mod their machine should follow Gagguino
| routes rather than go to Faceuino.
|
| Instead, Gagguino relicensed everything CC-BY-NC, and started
| on some crusade against profit. Apparently some dude on
| facebook making a tiny profit selling in the order of tens if
| not (maybe) hundreds of kits was justification to relicense the
| entire project, stop development entirely, and start working on
| a locked down replacement for everything.
|
| Now it's a completely proprietary project where you must buy
| the hardware from approved suppliers. The main control board
| can still just be normally flashed (meaning you could make a
| clone of it if you just make your own PCB). But the display
| unit (which now handles a bunch of the high level stuff) is a
| pre-flashed ESP-32 module which can only be OTA updated and you
| cannot flash from stock.
|
| Now the website contains silly vague FUD like what you copied
| above. Meanwhile the discord has stuff like:
|
| > *Pre-Activated Software and New LCD Units*
|
| > The new software will come pre-activated on all the LCD
| units, which in are available exclusively through our official
| suppliers to prevent the scalpeing efforts some people are
| engaged into. We're launching with a 4.3" LCD version initially
| but a headless (no screen) version set to follow shortly after.
| Also considering a smaller LCD version for those who prefer a
| more compact setup while still keeping a always on system
| status in front.
|
| What scalping? What is being scalped? What?
|
| Why can't these people just be honest and state it outright:
| "We didn't realise what open meant and we think profit should
| be illegal so we're going to impose a bunch of silly
| restrictions to try to prevent anyone from making any profit on
| this mod."
|
| I would respect that, instead you get crap like "This decision
| was made to maintain high standards for the hardware required
| for the project"
|
| What???
| mikegreco wrote:
| Thank you so much for breaking this situation down with such
| clarity. I've had the Gagguino mod on my personal project
| list for a while, and when I saw that they went closed source
| I was flabbergasted. Your writeup is the first I've seen that
| puts the situation in context. And honestly... it's
| tremendously disappointing. I may end up selling my old
| Gaggia classic rather than keeping it around just for this.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| I mean, aside from the bizarre licensing decisions and the
| fact the main guy behind Gagguino is extremely abrasive if
| you ever interact with him, the mod itself works well, at
| least the previous version (which I have installed). If you
| get the PCB v3 (you can get it manufactured yourself, or
| get it from the various suppliers) then it's an amazing
| upgrade to the machine.
|
| For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3), the code is
| there. The new version adds a wifi, a web server, a higher
| quality HMI, and a bunch of additional profiling features.
| You can get the same profiling features in the original
| firmware if you just write your own code, although that's a
| bit janky.
|
| The old code is written in some pretty ugly arduino C++ and
| you will need to use platformio to build it (which has
| telemetry enabled by default, which you should disable[0])
| and the architecture as a whole is very "EE grade" (anyone
| who has seen any quantity of embedded code written by EEs
| will know what I mean). But it's workable as a basis for
| your own experimentation.
|
| I've been meaning on just wholesale replacing the firmware,
| the existing firmware is very simple since the concept
| behind the machine is nothing new as far as control systems
| are concerned (Kalman filters, PID, and a curve to map
| between the current pressure and what flow rate to expect
| from the pump per pulse so you can do flow control). Most
| of the hard part is tuning the (somewhat custom but not
| exactly revolutionary) PID which was done before the
| project was relicensed, as well as calculating the
| pressure/flow curves for an the vibratory pump (again,
| mostly done before the relicense, but not hard to replicate
| if you take a blind basket and modify it to be a
| controllable flow restrictor).
|
| The main thing stopping me is the choice of the original
| mod to use a Nextion HMI which uses some awful proprietary
| GUI designer and a proprietary file format. I don't really
| like the idea of having to use a proprietary GUI designer
| in a project, and the Nextion is very limited (which was
| certainly a motivating factor in the Gagguino authors
| working on the new display).
|
| [0]: https://docs.platformio.org/en/stable/core/userguide/c
| md_set...
| dmytroi wrote:
| Same here with v3 and now being flabbergasted that my
| "open" project is suddenly dead-ended. (Re)doing an
| alternative software for PCB v3 is definitely possible,
| it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we
| would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso
| machine and move on.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| > it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we
| would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso
| machine and move on.
|
| Ha! I never thought about it this way, you're probably
| right on the time cost. Although, while the Decent
| espresso app which runs on the android tablet front end
| is open source, the firmware running the machine itself
| is not (unless I'm wrong). But given you can talk to it
| over bluetooth I think it fits my concept of "good
| enough" as the protocol is implemented in the open source
| app and the firmware as it stands gives you all the
| control knobs required to produce any result.
|
| That being said, the reason I even considered a rewrite
| is because I particularly enjoy these kinds of ridiculous
| firmware replacements. For example, I've investigated it
| for the possibility of using rust to do it, it would be
| quite a bit of work as I would have to probably
| contribute to the state of the art but I've wanted an
| excuse for an embedded rust project and the STM32F411
| (what you get in V3 by default) seems like not a terrible
| chip to base it on.
|
| Gagguino has switched to STM32U585 and it seems like it's
| also supported relatively well in the embedded rust
| ecosystem.
| mbs348 wrote:
| Thank you for this write up. As someone who has loved
| actually doing the mod, and using the machine afterword
| (hardware and espresso novice for the most part), I've felt
| like I am taking crazy pills following along as an open
| source maintainer in the past. The weaponizing of CC-NC is
| wild to me, though I think it might be coming a bit from the
| 3D printing STL sharing community.
|
| It just all makes my heart hurt. It is a great accessible DIY
| project with amazing results, but just with insane baggage.
| nathancahill wrote:
| The closest I've gotten to DIY espresso is EspressoForge:
| https://espressoforge.com/
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Man I'd love to get this semi-affordably in Europe. Such a cool
| product. I use a Cafelat Robot for my morning brew and it's
| consistently the highlight of my day. Manual espresso rules
| kreetx wrote:
| This thread is a goldmine!
| great_wubwub wrote:
| Flair Espresso has a similar thing and it looks like they
| have European distributors.
|
| https://flairespresso.com/distributors/
|
| I have the Original and have had it since it was the only
| thing they made. It's picky but if you get it all dialed
| right it makes great espresso.
| evantbyrne wrote:
| The prices on some of the hand pumps are wild to me. I feel
| like if I'm going to go the hand pump route, then I
| shouldn't be paying the same price as a Gaggia Classic Pro.
| stephencanon wrote:
| Easy fix, just price out an Olympia Mina and then the
| other hand pumps will seem cheap by comparison.
| tmoertel wrote:
| I use a Cafelat Robot in the USA, and I agree it's great. The
| workflow is simple and streamlined, yet it affords a high
| degree of control.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| I don't really see the advantage compared to your Cafelat
| Robot, or a Flair.
| greenavocado wrote:
| Espresso forge has even fewer moving parts, and no rotating
| bearing surfaces or arms that can snap. The moving part is
| a stainless steel rod with two EPDM o-rings on the moving
| surface. It will last several centuries given a supply of
| o-rings. The basket mating surface has a silicone gasket
| which lasts forever if you store the device in pieces after
| cleaning up the coffee grounds.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Seems like fun, nothing more nothing less.
| p4bl0 wrote:
| In addition to my AeroPress I also regularly use a ROK
| espresso machine, which is pretty similar to the Cafelat I
| believe, and I can attest it's pretty awesome.
|
| https://www.rok.coffee/
| evnp wrote:
| Seconded, love the ability to take it camping (car, the thing
| weighs a ton) along with a c40, and use standard-size baskets.
| Current favorite is a big bang[1] which leads to a very
| different resulting espresso than the stock basket - both
| great!
|
| [1] https://imsfiltri.com/prodotto/b702tfh23-5bb/
| satvikpendem wrote:
| Wow that site is incredibly annoying on mobile, just let me
| scroll ffs. Anyway, is this comparable to those portable pump
| action espresso machines? Thus seems quite a bit larger for
| minimal gain, at first glance, but I'd be happy to hear
| opinions on how it might be better (after all, it is bigger,
| presumably for _some_ good reason).
| simple10 wrote:
| Oh nice! Expresso Forge is exactly what I've been looking for.
| I'm a big fan of manual, maintenance & electricity free coffee
| tools. Thanks for sharing.
| rtaylorgarlock wrote:
| Perhaps consider other options which don't require large
| force. I'm currently running a normal aeropress, from before
| the VC buyout, with a Fellow Prismo + paper filter, and i'm
| getting results which I'm very happy with. I use my forearm
| to press rather than hands. I've been happy enough i've
| avoided building a Gagguino[1], which I'm a super big fan of
| despite my distaste for vibratory pumps. For no heater or
| lever, this compares relatively poorly to a Flair[2] in my
| eyes. I've found all this coffee stuff to be highly available
| used at a discount all along the Atlantic coast US.
|
| [1] https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino [2]
| https://flairespresso.com/product/flair-58/
| avtolik wrote:
| This looks cool and hackable. I wonder though how much control
| over the pressure you can get with a vibratory pump.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| A vibratory pump is very good at controlling pressure as
| demonstrated by the Decent espresso machine the Gaggiuino mod
| and whatever that Rancilio Silva mod is called.
| mynameyeff wrote:
| Looks like your server got the HN hug
| wantstothink wrote:
| This is the precipice of fourth-wave coffee. Bringing your
| desktop computer to a cafe, hooking it up, and remotely brewing a
| cortado somewhere, in a different time zone.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Sadly the website was knocked out by HN, I guess.
|
| Anyway, I really like my Flair. It is fun to press the thing
| manually. And it is nice to have espresso still during a power
| outage (as long as I can get ground beans and fire).
|
| I think this is a different definition of "do it yourself"
| though, hahaha.
| nephanth wrote:
| Not only is the Flair very nice to use, and does it allow you
| to make pretty good coffee, It is also the cheapest setup I
| found to make espresso
| ben7799 wrote:
| I've had a flair for about 3 years now and love it.
|
| Simple, not that expensive, extremely easy to clean and yet has
| less annoying maintenance than a fancy machine. Extremely
| unlikely to break. Very good control of the process and very
| good coffee.
|
| Obviously the weakness of the flair is the turnaround time. (I
| don't have the Flair 58). But I am the only one in my house who
| actually drinks Espresso. For the amount I drink I don't think
| the Flair actually takes much more time than a very expensive
| automatic machine, because I would leave the fancy machine
| turned on and hot and ready to make coffee.
| martinpw wrote:
| I find the turnaround time of the Flair a good thing. Firstly
| it makes a nice 5-10 minute ritual first thing in the
| morning, especially when combined with a hand grinder. And
| secondly it is just enough effort that it prevents me from
| drinking too much espresso which I absolutely would do if I
| had a more automated process.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Three shots is the point where I start to get annoyed with
| the thing and four shots is when I start to get jittery.
| So, it all worked out.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Yeah, the turnaround time is a thing, but I mostly only
| notice it when I've ground my beans too fine and pushing the
| lever takes too long. Which was an error in the first place,
| I guess.
|
| If everything is going well, I'll usually just do one shot
| right after the other (no cleaning), like a barbarian. It
| works fine and I don't have to heat up the water chamber
| again, haha.
| everybodyknows wrote:
| I have a Flair. Poking a temperature probe into the emerging
| stream revealed that a finely choreographed preheat ritual is
| necessary to get even close to the usual recommended 200F.
| keane wrote:
| 507 server errors but it looks like they've also made one post to
| Instagram and another to LinkedIn:
| https://www.instagram.com/diypresso/
| https://www.linkedin.com/posts/pieterraat_aankondiging-nieuw...
| ReptileMan wrote:
| Off topic - has anyone found cheaper sets of sifts than the
| kruve. The grind us way more important than the machine.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Sifting and particle size distribution are only one small part
| of what makes a grinder produce a certain flavour profile.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| This is very cool - website is down for me now but looking at
| their Instagram post looks like an E61 group head, and espresso-
| only functionality (no steaming) which simplifies thing a ton.
| Looks like this would pair really well with a Nanofoamer for
| people who like milk drinks. I'm definitely tempted!
| spzb wrote:
| https://archive.ph/rfQ7W
| benrutter wrote:
| This is very cool!
|
| Sidetrack: the website mentions "driving espresso innovation
| forwards". Is this a thing? I love coffee but mostly just use a
| french press or a moka pot (which are more "great old school
| tech" than "innovation")
| eudes_ochoa wrote:
| Oh, yes. Look up the Decent DE1 to see what that means.
|
| I will drink moka-pot coffee if that's all that's available,
| but espresso is what I want to have most days. So I have a good
| enough grinder and an mid-range espresso machine. It isn't
| always a success. Sometimes it's sour, sometimes bitter,
| sometimes too weak. Most of the time I don't have a clue why,
| so I can't address anything in particular, I can only try
| changing one of the few variables I can control with my setup,
| and hope to god that the other ones haven't changed on their
| own.
|
| People are really serious about consistently producing real
| good espresso. Control and observability are what these
| machines offer.
|
| If you want to fall into the rabbit hole Lance Hendrick's
| YouTube goes in depth into recent research and technique. And
| James Hoffman is a similar but more approachable source.
| benrutter wrote:
| This is a great rabbit hole!! Thanks for sharing
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| french press or a moka pot aren't espresso, moka doesn't have
| the extraction pressure "real" espresso machines have (still
| quite enjoy them though!).
| CAPSLOCKSSTUCK wrote:
| I recently bought a super automatic machine for only $350, and it
| doesn't include a steam wand (big plus for someone who never
| makes milk-based drinks). This seems like a fun project but
| simple off-the-shelf ones are really coming down in price.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| I think this is definitely for a different target market, as
| super automatics are generally not preferred by folks who I
| think would appreciate this machine.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Comparing a superauto to this machine is like comparing an iPad
| to a home built desktop PC, a smartphone camera to a DSLR, a
| Sonos or Bose sound bar to a modular Hi-Fi system, etc...
|
| The superauto is more convenient, press a button, get a coffee.
| And if you put in decent beans, and follow the recommendations
| regarding cleaning/maintenance, you will most likely get a
| decent shot. However, it won't last as long, and you will be
| limited, that is, don't expect to get the perfect cup exactly
| like you want it.
|
| This machine does not compete with consumer-level superautos,
| it competes with other E-61 "home barista" type machines, which
| you can also find off-the-shelf.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| couldn't find official confirmation anywhere, but that _looks_
| like an arduino MKR WiFi 1010, which means it should have wifi
| for integration with home assistant or something. I realize that
| the overall process is probably too manual to fully automate, but
| you could at least turn it on and get the water heating in the
| morning, I imagine.
|
| Although now that I look a little more, according to the quick
| start guide, wifi isn't yet enabled in the software, although I
| imagine that means they have plans to. Plus of course, with open
| source software, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do yourself.
|
| I like this thing! Would love to see James Hoffman review it
| pcl wrote:
| I plug my espresso machine into a smart socket, which I then
| switch on via an automation before I wake up, so the boiler is
| ready to go for me.
|
| I do the same thing with a dumb duct fan. Turns out smart
| sockets can cover a lot of ground in home automation.
| Arch-TK wrote:
| Why E61 though? Strictly the most annoying type of group
| especially for home use.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Was just going to comment on this. Sure it's "the standard",
| but it has so many downsides for home usage. Just stick with
| the standard 58mm portafilter but ditch the ancient e61.
| criddell wrote:
| What are the downsides? I had one for about a decade (a heat
| exchanger machine) and never had any issue with it. I've been
| thinking about getting back into espresso and an e61 would be
| something I look for mostly because I'm comfortable with it.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Broadly speaking, modern espresso groupheads for home use
| you want to focus on one thing: responsiveness. You want it
| to react to temperature provided, not resist changes to
| temperature, and be able to be controlled. E61 groupheads
| are typically coupled directly to the boiler of the machine
| via thermosiphon, so they heat up as the machine heats up.
| This also means that heating up the giant chunk of mass
| takes ages. Terrible for home use.
|
| The E61 grouphead is meant for commercial usage. It's
| heavy, tons of thermal mass, and has a tendency to overheat
| if it isn't flushed regularly (or, in the case of a
| commercial setting, just used... which typically isn't a
| problem in a commercial setting).
|
| For most home usages of E61 machines you need to perform
| "temperature surfing" to get a great shot from an E61. More
| modern groupheads don't have such a large thermal mass and
| tend to be somewhat isolated from the boiler or
| thermoblock, so you can just heat them directly from a
| previously pulled shot and be just fine.
|
| Again, not to say you can't make good espresso from them. I
| think there's also some E61 constructions and mitigate some
| of these issues, but they're not standard in the industry.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| It's easy to build/find parts.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Maybe if this takes off it will be hackable enough to convert
| to 58mm depending on the user's taste
| trumbitta2 wrote:
| I thought this was the first one?
| https://tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Coffee/
| stiray wrote:
| Would love to play with it but for this price they can keep it.
|
| Dont understand me wrong, love the idea, but selling it for this
| price is just crazy.
|
| Consumers should be more aware that if they can afford something,
| this doesnt mean it is worth buying it.
| klausa wrote:
| I mean, 1250 euros is a lot of money, but that is very much on
| the lower end of prices for mid-range espresso machines.
|
| If you don't like espresso and don't find it valuable, that's
| fine!
| stiray wrote:
| Wrong narative. I love espresso. But comparing it with 250
| euro espresso machine, I highly doubt that it will make 500%
| better coffee, for wast majority of the owners, cleaning one
| < 500 euros machine regularly would make more difference,
| maybe drying portafilter before use, learning how to equally
| distribute coffee in portafilter, adding a round cut
| tea/coffee filter at bottom of it, grind coffee correctly.
| Price / performance is just not there.
|
| And I am not saying that any other mentioned "mid range"
| espresso machine is worth that money.
| oslem wrote:
| You could make the same argument about a 250 euro espresso
| machine and a 30 euro moka pot. If the materials are better
| and the buyer likes it, it's worth it to them at least. I
| think most people who own an espresso machine understand
| it's a luxury.
| bongobingo1 wrote:
| Moka and espresso machines produce different coffee
| though. They operate on the same principle but the
| pressures are much different.
| timvdalen wrote:
| So are coffee from a 250 EUR "espresso" machine and a
| higher-end one
| stiray wrote:
| Actually higher end ones are at 20.000 euros, so I will
| rather drink my 6666 espressos in bar, made by
| professional, on 20k euros machine with zero effort. I am
| good for next 18 years.
| siffin wrote:
| No, coffee from a 250 EUR espresso machine and a higher
| end machine are still espresso. Stovetop doesn't make
| espresso coffee.
|
| They are fundamentally different processes which product
| a completely different output.
| timvdalen wrote:
| I don't disagree that a moka pot and espresso are
| completely different processes, I'm saying that a 250 EUR
| espresso machine is not going to be capable of making
| actual espresso (barring stuff like Flair that takes away
| components to make it work).
| stiray wrote:
| But the facts are showing something else:
| https://www.delonghi.com/en-gb/products/coffee/manual-
| espres...
|
| Just head to technical data and feel free to explain
| which parameter is wrong. Take the cheapest one, 213
| euros. Is is 15 (12) bar of pressure? Some other type of
| heater, as 1300 Watts of input power is not enough?
|
| Seriously, I don't understand what the limiting factor
| is? Not expensive enough?
|
| I even tried to find explanation by Hoffman and:
|
| - cheaper
|
| - plastic, not a lot of metal
|
| - light
|
| - small drip tray
|
| - you need to "grip" it, whatever that means
|
| - if you are clumsy you press buttons
|
| - what you would expect for the money
|
| But nothing about the taste of espresso... ;)
|
| Somehow it looks not luxurious enough, right?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L7WniyTqV9I
| Thimothy wrote:
| Lack of temperature control is a minus, as that means
| that there will be some blends that won't taste good,
| these days most fancy machines have a pid (and if yours
| doesn't you should install it, or you are missing out).
|
| Kind of related, lack of boiler at 1.5 atm means non-
| great milk foaming capabilities.
|
| Also, you buy a good 1500$ machine, your grandchildren
| will be able to inherit it if you take care of it. That
| delhongi won't last two days further than the minimum
| required by guarantee.
| stiray wrote:
| For 1000$ difference in price, I wont buy those blends,
| there are zillions of others to try. So simple. Anyway, I
| have checked and there is some temperature control + you
| can get more if you turn up the steam making and turn
| back to espresso making. A "hack".
|
| About milk foaming, you are talking about this?
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7tS99wwpSI as I dont see
| any issue with the foam. I do see skill.
|
| Anyway, a life hack,
| https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007334888419.html,
| 0.91$ replacement for 1000$ boiler. And it does wonderful
| foam, was using it 10 years back on 1xAA battery.
|
| So, if I buy 5x Dedica (edit, just checked: 167 euro in
| my country, so it is actually 8x) for the price, and
| package them NEW for my grandchildren, this doesnt count?
| stiray wrote:
| It is a different type of coffee, you cant compare.
|
| And "understanding it is a luxury" is why the prices are
| extreme.
| Wheaties466 wrote:
| i can tell you that more often than not it will make 500%
| better espresso.
|
| I've owned 5 machines from varying price categories and the
| number of features you get with a machine around ~1200 gets
| you the most consistent experience.
|
| can you make a good shot of espresso with a ~250 euro
| machine? absolutely. can you make 2-5 back to back great
| shots? probably not. Can you use any bean you want and get
| a good shot? probably not.
|
| its all about what you value in your experience.
| stiray wrote:
| Should I mention audiophiles? The first feeling when you
| turn on a new system, it will never come back, until you
| get an arguably better system...
|
| And the rabbit hole is deep. How much did you pay for
| grinder?
|
| I think this is worth (for espresso lover) far more than
| 1250 euro machine:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTFsBqhpLes&list=PLxz0FjZ
| MVO...
| klausa wrote:
| I find it cute that you think people arguing that 1250E
| is not that much for a quality espresso machine don't
| know Hoffman's videos like the back of their hands :)
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Audiophiles are a bad analogy since you can setup a blind
| taste test of coffee equipment. And different people will
| make the same identifications. Which suggests that we all
| tasted the same thing. Where as you can't tell the
| difference between cables.
|
| I'm all for being skeptical, especially with something as
| subjective as taste.
|
| But it always amuses me that people never bother to check
| their skepticism. Has it ever occurred to you that you
| might one day be wrong?
| dessimus wrote:
| Someone actually did a blind study comparing flat vs
| conical grinders with over 150 coffee professionals [0]
| to find they could not discern a difference in how the
| coffee was ground before being brewed while controlling
| for other variables.
|
| So it would seem that Audiophiles are the perfect
| analogy.
|
| 0: https://youtu.be/3XYTi6OBecA?t=2400 (Discussion on the
| study begins around 34:00)
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I'd love to see what grinders and specific burrs she
| used.
|
| We also setup a blinded coded triangle test, there was
| only 3 of us and four grinders: one $5k grinder, 2x$2.5k,
| one $700. 2 flat 2 conical. The flats have teeth
| supposedly for filter brewing. One coffee.
|
| We picked the grinders correctly. Obviously we could have
| better methods, but the differences seemed obvious
| between the flats and conical. Within the same geometry,
| I think I just guessed the better tasting one to me was
| the more expensive grinder which may or may not be true.
| This surprised us. We didn't think we'd pick anything.
| But all agreed on similar tasting notes for the flats and
| conical with no proper discussion or even looking at the
| notes for the coffee.
|
| Brewing espresso I even observe psychical differences
| during the brew. I have two sets of flat burrs from the
| same grinder. Different teeth pattern. Same coating. One
| set allows me to go much finer to hit the same grams per
| second out and always leaves a soupy mess in the basket
| regardless of setting. The other doesn't leave a soupy
| mess and grinds courser. I don't know what's happening.
| But this is easy to reproduce.
|
| But then again, I also have a hand grinder that tastes
| more like my flats. And was quite cheap. So flat vs
| conical may not matter at all and it's the shape of the
| cutting surface.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| I bet the temperature of the beans when they are ground
| and brewed make more of a difference than the grinder you
| use.
| klausa wrote:
| I'd be very curious to see a 250E 58mm espresso machine
| with anything resembling the temperature stability of an
| E61.
| stiray wrote:
| Yeah, I am also curious to see coffees on both done by
| professional barista, blind tasting and the results.
|
| edit: found something, but unfortunately, not the same
| barista and only two tasters. Plus decorations on milk
| gave a hint who made what...
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YhsDPz2I0
| klausa wrote:
| But this is a wrong metric to use! _Can_ you get the same
| coffee out of 250E machine as from a 20kE one? Probably!
|
| Will it take the same amount of work? Will it be as
| repeatable as the more expensive one? Will you need to
| temperature surf? How many wasted shots does it take me
| to dial in? Can you steam milk at the same time as
| pulling a shot? Can you do a ~19g dose?
|
| If "taste under best possible conditiosn" is your _only_
| metric, then, sure, I guess anything over a baseline
| espresso machine is frivolous.
|
| But espresso is _very_ finicky to get right, even with
| the best and most expensive equipment, under the best
| circumstances. Having a reliable, repeatable machine
| removes one variable from the equation, letting you worry
| about one thing less.
|
| Creature comforts and convenience are valuable too! A
| beat-up 1990 sedan will get you from A-B just the same as
| a 2024 luxury german car. But people value _nice things_.
| stiray wrote:
| So we agree on most important factor. You can get a great
| espresso from 5 times cheaper machine. This is what I was
| claiming. Price / performance, not worthy.
|
| I mean, audiophiles are also buying audiophile routers
| (digital technology is irrelevant here) and audiophile
| stones ( https://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/wp-
| content/uploads/201... ).
|
| There always needs to be someone that overpays things or
| we would have those 1250 euro machines for 250 euros when
| market instead of hype would start working.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| The price/performance curve is never linear. Everyone finds
| their spot, and then thinks "cheaper units are ugly garbage,
| more expensive units are frilly and pointless." It's personal
| consumer psychology, not science.
|
| So "worth it" only really means "worth it to me."
| ManDeJan wrote:
| A neat project for sure but as it stands this has major safety
| issues. The control logic is able to lock up and keep the boilers
| heating element in an forever "on" state till something snaps. I
| couldn't find a mention of safety in the manual nor see any
| mechanical safety failsafes in case of overheating.
| cantSpellSober wrote:
| Yep, love the hacker spirit but the headline reads like "DIY
| Warhead" to me
| cdaringe wrote:
| Are you speaking from experience or did you just study the f/w?
| I agree, gotta have those thermal switches, and they need to
| result in killing power on threshold breach.
| cruffle_duffle wrote:
| Lots of 3d printers used to have issues like this with the
| firmware controlling their hotends. They'd fail on and start a
| fire. Modern Klipper and Marlin firmware detect wild or
| unexpected temp swings and pull the "emergency stop" cord to
| shut it all down.
|
| And speaking of safety, old FPV flight control software didn't
| handle a very common mistake. It is very easy to put the wrong
| propeller on a motor. For example you might accidentally put on
| the counterclockwise propeller on the motor that spins
| clockwise. The result is when you arm the quad (as in turn on
| the motors), it flips its shit because the quad starts moving
| in a completely unexpected way. The flight control software is
| designed to "lock the angle (attitude) of the quad in and fight
| any uncommanded deviation". Well, a backwards prop produces a
| hell of an uncommanded deviation!! So the controller tells the
| motor to spin faster to compensate but all that does is make
| things worse as the backwards prop pushes the thing in the
| exact wrong way. So it becomes an out of control quad that can
| and will cause property damage and injury (the propellers on a
| quad are large, very sharp and attached to very powerful
| motors. Coming into contact with a spinning propeller will send
| you to the hospital). This was a big problem in tight spaces
| like races and stuff.
|
| A while ago somebody submitted a pull request that added a
| safety. When first arms, if the quad starts to behave "wrong"
| or "unexpected", it immediately disarms. From what I recall it
| was actually fairly simple to detect too... if the "error" in
| the PID loop got too high it means something is very wrong
| mechanically and it's best shut down. Countless fingers have no
| doubt been saved by this patch.
|
| It's probably very similar detection code to what is in 3d
| printer firmware or espresso machine firmware. If the PID error
| is "unexpected" something is mechanically wrong and it needs to
| shut down before Bad Things happen.
| nabilhat wrote:
| A thermal fuse isn't for overpressure control, it's intended to
| trip before a physical overpressure control vents superheated
| steam. Both provide failover redundancy independent of
| operational heater controls.
|
| There isn't enough detail of the boiler to tell if there's an
| overpressure relief valve. The boiler can't be made safe
| without one. If they're cheap enough to be standard in cheap
| knockoff moka pots one should be here...
|
| This machine's wiring diagram shows an unlabelled shape wired
| in series with what might possibly be the heating element and a
| shape with "ssr" in its label. Which places the first
| unlabelled shape in the right place to be a thermal fuse or
| switch. If they're cheap enough to be standard in Mr Coffee
| machines one should be here...
|
| Safety discussion in this project is conspicuously absent.
| Knowledgable users shouldn't be making assumptions like this
| about safety features. Assumptions and safety aren't
| compatible. Average users should be informed in detail about
| the safety features they're tasked with assembling.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> I couldn 't [...] see any mechanical safety failsafes in
| case of overheating._
|
| On the assembly instructions, page 39 shows the boiler assembly
| has a therm-o-disc thermostat fixed to the top. It's not
| labelled, you just have to recognise it. The schematic on page
| 44 shows it's wired in series with the boiler's heater. That
| provides redundancy for the main temperature control, which is
| presumably the microcontroller sensing from the PT1000
|
| Page 32 also describes the installation of an overpressure
| valve (which appears to return water to the cold tank?)
|
| The machine does lack hardware run-dry protection though; as
| far as I can tell, it relies on a load cell to detect if
| there's water in the tank. If you ran it without water to
| conduct heat from the heating element to the thermostat, the
| thermostat wouldn't function. So it's not entirely safe, as you
| say.
|
| [1] https://diypresso.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2024/05/2024-05-27-...
| dfxm12 wrote:
| You can get a similar machine (Quick Mill Carola) for the same
| price, assembled. To scratch the hacker itch, you can get a much
| cheaper machine (Gaggia Classic Pro, Rancillio Silvia) and
| install a PID (a computer to control most of the brewing
| parameters).
|
| I understand the appeal to "hackers", but if you just want
| coffee, there are more, proven reliable, less expensive, options.
| abakker wrote:
| I have a quick mill QM67 from 2012...well past 10000 shots in
| that time and about 5 hours of "On time" per day. since I got
| it I hacked in a direct plumbing line with a solenoid, and have
| killed one $29 pump.
|
| However, it is probably now in need of a teardown. the brew
| pressure bypass valve is seized, and there is some
| scaling/corrosion in the brew head. I've got a machine shop, so
| I'm tempted to tear the whole thing apart, rewire, and replace
| the core electronics, but I'm not sure exactly what to do.
| siliconescapee wrote:
| That's a great deal and a very nice machine, but it isn't
| really the same in the sense that the Carola is a PID machine,
| but not a pressure profiling machine. I've used a non-pressure-
| profiling machine for years, and it's great, but pressure
| profiles are the current area of innovation for espresso
| machines and hacking.
| rtaylorgarlock wrote:
| I'm looking specifically for comments involving GCP and Silvias
| as I struggle to see a better option for us 'hackers.' Posting
| a separate comment about the Gagguino project [1] unless I find
| one. Would be happy to hear of a better path to Decent-level
| performance.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino
| fanatic2pope wrote:
| I've had the PID enabled version of Quick Mill Carola for a few
| years now, and I don't think I would recommend it. The #1 issue
| for me is the water reservoir and associated fill sensor. The
| water reservoir is too difficult to refill, too difficult to
| see how full it is, and the water sensor is really unreliable
| and will beep loudly and prevent warm up even when the machine
| is full. I ended up disabling the sensor. I won't be getting
| rid of my Carola, but I think there are better choices now,
| something like the ECM Puristika, perhaps.
| drrotmos wrote:
| The more I think about the more I feel that this is the wrong
| solution to the problem. Disclaimer: I'm doing a small open
| source espresso controller project, check it out if you're
| interested, but it's not ready for prime time yet:
| https://github.com/variegated-coffee.
|
| My thinking is that this machine appeals mostly to people who
| already has an espresso machine. It's not particularly
| technologically advanced. It's a single boiler, an E61 group and
| a vibratory pump. If you're buying this machine, you're probably
| replacing a machine at a similar technology level, and that's not
| really a sustainable choice.
|
| A well maintained espresso machine has a lifespan in the range of
| decades. Many recent innovations in espresso machines is mostly
| controllers, sensors and actuators. Also better pumps. These are
| all things that can easily be retrofitted to an older espresso
| machine.
|
| There _has_ been innovation in other areas not easily
| retrofittable (saturated groups, dual boilers instead of heat-
| exchangers, to name a few), but this machine doesn 't really
| feature any of those.
|
| I strongly believe that in this particular demographic, it's a
| much better (more sustainable, cheaper and all around more fun)
| idea to retrofit new and advanced _parts_ to the espresso machine
| they presumably already have, than to buy a whole new machine. We
| don 't need old espresso machines on landfills.
|
| On the off chance that a prospective buyer _doesn 't_ already
| have a similar espresso machine, this isn't too bad of a choice,
| and the price is decent, but on the other hand, there are a lot
| of used machines on the market that are looking for a new owner
| and can be upgraded.
| zero_iq wrote:
| It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you
| can buy already-assembled.
|
| If this was half the price, I might be interested. But if I
| wanted a coffee maker with open source control, I'd probably
| just hack an existing cheaper product. And I'm someone who
| absolutely _loves_ assembling stuff from kits!
|
| Heck, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't already got Doom
| running on a Sage.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _It 's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines
| you can buy already-assembled._
|
| Exactly. The parent post mentions this being "the wrong
| solution to the problem", but I don't know what the problem
| is this product is addressing. E61 machines are well
| understood and diagrammed with (somewhat) interchangeable
| parts. If this product appeals to you, you can buy a
| cheaper/similarly priced machine, take it apart and put it
| back together yourself.
| a012 wrote:
| And also branded machine got QC before going to my home,
| instead I'd not trust myself to do anything related to the
| boilers
| everybodyknows wrote:
| Not my Baratza Vario grinder. First two units had line-
| hot shorted to ground.
| bch wrote:
| Now the big question - was Baratza cool to deal with? I
| haven't had _too much_ interaction with them, but I
| replaced (they sold me) a controller board for my Vario-W
| for a reasonable price, as well as burrs and the drive.
| The machines are good for what they are, but their
| service (what they pride themselves on) is exceptional in
| my experience.
| drrotmos wrote:
| Oh, don't get me started on what the problem is :D
|
| * Espresso machine electronics are _very_ proprietary.
| There 's basically one manufacturer, no published
| schematics and very closed firmwares.
|
| * That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and
| needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it.
|
| * Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller
| with the new firmware is your only option.
|
| * Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly
| stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px
| OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment
| displays, or graphical LCDs.
|
| There are absolutely exceptions to this, but for 95% of the
| espresso machines out there, you're definitely not getting
| the full potential of the hardware.
| dgacmu wrote:
| Which one manufacturer do you have in mind?
|
| Perhaps you're thinking of the commercial market and I'm
| thinking of consumer, but there's been a lot of really
| interesting developments in the last few years at the
| intersection of affordable and high quality output -- I
| own a plus Bambino plus now, for example, which is simply
| a delightful machine, though I too wish I could modify
| the firmware.
| drrotmos wrote:
| Gicar. If you're looking at home machines from
| manufacturers that also do commercial (e.g. Profitec,
| ECM, Lelit, Rancilio, La Marzocco etc), they almost
| exclusively use Gicar electronics.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I don't think any of these issues are solved by selling
| you a pile of parts and having you build the machine
| yourself. An open/more flexible PID is a great idea, but
| that's just one piece of this product & could be built
| into an already assembled machine. There are some
| machines (Decent, Sam Remo You) that give you a lot more
| control, but even this level of control probably goes
| unused by a lot of its users if the h-b forums are to be
| believed.
|
| More control than that, or a totally open PID, might be a
| hard sell for safety reasons. That alone is a nonstarter,
| but even as you approach that level of openness, it would
| be pretty hard to support and really isn't needed if you
| just want a good shot of espresso and aren't taking an
| niche academic approach to an already niche process. This
| is why you likely won't see it in more commercial
| machines.
| hiatus wrote:
| > * Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty
| firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a
| 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators,
| 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs.
|
| I don't know if I'd consider adding a screen to an
| espresso machine to be an improvement. What would it be
| useful for?
| dgacmu wrote:
| I have a no-display machine and I wish it had a few
| things that a screen would facilitate:
|
| (1) Automatic shot timer.
|
| (2) Shot volume display (my machine is a volumetric one,
| but I have to measure the weight of the output to
| calculate what volume it dispensed)
|
| (3) Ability to configure other parameters, such as pre-
| infusion time, where I'm guessing the manufacturer just
| left this out because it would complicate an already kind
| of painful button + LED UI.
|
| I also wish it had a group head temperature sensor, but
| that would add more hardware to the machine than just the
| screen.
| secabeen wrote:
| All this exists from Decent Espresso, but they are the 1%
| of the market that is the exception.
| 0x457 wrote:
| This is like building your own keyboards. It's for people
| that like putting things together.
|
| I've ordered DIY framework laptop not because it was
| cheaper, but because it was fun to build it.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| The last sentence of my post addresses this.
| iamwil wrote:
| Do you have a list of recommendations of kits that you
| enjoyed assembling?
| diego_moita wrote:
| Agree, I am a software and espresso guy.
|
| Although I've been regularly fixing my Baratza grinder and
| Rancilio Silvia for years the fact is that disassembling
| hardware and tightening screws still looks slightly scary and
| dangerous. It is always an adventure but not always fun.
|
| My fearless limit on hardware DIY is assembling IKEA furniture
| and cleaning my bike. Beyond that, I'd think twice.
| lpasselin wrote:
| I have a 200$ mini machine and would like to upgrade. Can DIY
| anything. What would you suggest for a maximum budget of 1500$?
| fancyfredbot wrote:
| Watch this video: https://youtu.be/e0kQ5WqjcU8?si=IQ-
| BVCU3cp4USqPx
| karolist wrote:
| Sage/Breville Dual Boiler and do the slayer mod + drip tray
| mod, you can then pull espresso that rivals any machine out
| there for a fraction of the cost.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmQgxQ5Higw
|
| The machine is old enough to be well understood with
| documented mods and fixes, it's dual boiler, triple PID,
| extreme temp stability, fill from the front, drip tray
| indicator. I love it.
|
| https://home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-
| boi...
| ce4 wrote:
| Get a used Rancilio Silvia + do a fully fledged Gaggiuino
| build.
|
| Check this Video comparison (Not a modded Silvia though, but
| a Gaggia classic which I would not recommended due to its
| aluminum boiler and the new China manufactured models have a
| (probably Teflon) coated boiler that likes to shed the
| coating... just search on reddit). The emphasis in this
| comparison is on the Gaggiuino mod, which does all the magic
| (profile based brewing). The underlying base machine is not
| that important. I would stay away from Sage/Breville, too
| much non standard parts and lots of plastic for my taste.
|
| Decent Espresso vs DIY Gaggiuino build:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw
|
| Edit: many typos and some rewording
| polyvisual wrote:
| I read that Gaggia would replace flaking boilers. Contact
| your supplier for information.
| horacemorace wrote:
| An E61 is the wrong choice. They have fluidic mechanical
| pressure ramp system. A modern machine ought to have adjustable
| computerized pressure profiles.
| frontiersummit wrote:
| I only see power requirements (1300 W) but no mention of
| voltage or frequency requirements---not even in the user guide.
| The pricing in EUR hints that the creators are in
| 240/1/50-land, and that I'm out-of-luck in the 120/1/60 wastes
| of North America. It's a shame, because I'm very much the
| target demographic for a kit like this. One could transform it
| from 120 V or run it on our 240 V split-phase with an isolation
| transformer of course, but running the A/C pump 20% faster
| might be dubious.
|
| As an aside, I'm frustrated for the same reason regarding
| induction cooktops. European units are a fraction of the cost
| of their American equivalents.
| ce4 wrote:
| You're probably not out-of-luck. Just buy a heat element
| designed for your grid's voltage. The electronics' internal
| PSU might already be capable having a wide range input.
|
| Besides that, I would absolutely not recommend you buy this.
|
| Reason: the parent commenter already hinted in the right
| direction. The E61 brew group is ancient (invented in 1961 by
| Faema in Italy, hence the name), it sports 4kg of brass and
| many moving parts (3 valves, camshaft + lever) and features
| an analog pre brew chamber.
|
| I do restore italian espresso machines for a hobby and have
| come to the same conclusion as the parent. Even if they're
| not maintained properly those things are meant to last and
| can in most cases be resurrected. Most spare parts are
| readily available and defacto industry standard (eg. The
| Brasilia ring brew head) and you can retrofit nice
| electronics easily (eg. clever coffee or the gaggiuino foss
| controller project featuring pressure transducers, pid
| controller(s) and a controllable Flow/Pressure rate,
| profiles, apps and so on).
|
| This diy project is imho bland and uses the most ancient brew
| head available, with unnecessary heat dissipation, long
| warmup times and probably leaded brass...
| jvdvegt wrote:
| Fyi: yeah they're Dutch.
| zjp wrote:
| Do you have any parts recommendations for Rancilio Silvias?
| its_down_again wrote:
| Honestly, it looks really great. Definitely more polished than
| what I was expecting from open-source/hacker setup.
|
| I've been dailying a Breville dual boiler since 2019, and I've
| tried a few other machines at coworking spaces and friends'
| places over the years. For me, as long as I can hit 9 bars with a
| decent puck extraction, the machine itself doesn't make a huge
| difference in flavor. The challenge is finding the right beans,
| and the fine-tuning through the grinder and puck prep.
|
| It's not that my machine struggles to push water through
| consistently, it's that I struggle to nail the grind size,
| achieve even particle distribution, and tamp evenly. Mornings
| especially--I just don't have steady hands right after waking up.
| Funny enough, my best shots are usually in the afternoon. Sadly I
| try to avoid drinking coffee past noon, so it's often for someone
| else, and I just take a tax with a tasting spoon.
|
| The way I see it, upgrading the machine helps with drinks per
| hour throughput, not single shot quality. I think that's also why
| the at-home coffee community is more into things like the niche
| grinder and blind shaker.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I would recommend to look for a manual lever - either Flair or
| Cafelat Robot, or models with a boiler like La Pavoni or
| Olympia Cremina if milk is required.
|
| It is easier to adjust flow and pressure in many cases than
| grind size. Also you will notice that a flat pressure profile
| is not that good - you will see and feel when puck start to
| degrade and you have to go down with pressure. People tend to
| make science out of everything these days, but you can
| perfectly go by feel if you have immediate feedback. As a plus,
| all these machines are incredibly simple, robust and
| serviceable. The Cremina I've got is from 96 and has all
| chances to outlive me.
|
| The only thing I really would pay attention to is ratio - is
| can shift the taste a lot between sour and bitter.
| mysteria wrote:
| I don't see a license in the Github repo, so currently the code
| for this machine is only source available and not open source.
|
| https://github.com/diyPresso/diyPresso-One
| jorki wrote:
| It seems like they have just added a license
| mysteria wrote:
| Well there we go. I wonder if they read my comment :)
| cdaringe wrote:
| The build timelapse is fun given that the light/shadow gives a
| strong additional sense of assembly duration.
| a012 wrote:
| I'm not a really avid espresso person but IMO any decent espresso
| machine could do the job, the real deal is the coffee grinder.
| Invest in the highly precision grinder could up scale your
| espresso shots without an expressive coffee machine.
| criddell wrote:
| A DIY grinder project might be interesting, but I'm not sure if
| there are reliable sources for burrs and those would be pretty
| difficult to make.
| rtaylorgarlock wrote:
| I've thought about this. Nice burrs are available, yet the
| other machined components are less so available. 3d printing
| will get the project only part of the way for what I'd think
| of for a real part. My brain is sort of putting a plan
| together as I'm typing, so perhaps I'll put together a
| prototype when my brain is less taxed.
| fifnir wrote:
| Got hit with a popup to signup to something before I could even
| read their "splash" message, jesus christ
| righthand wrote:
| I am the "self-upgrade my hardware" type. If there's one piece of
| advice I didn't listen to it's "just buy the nicer machine" for
| espresso. While it's fun that I got to upgrade the parts and make
| it better. It also cost me just as much money. The tinker aspect
| only involves a few simple upgrades on my Gaggia Classic Pro.
|
| But what I didn't realize is that espresso machines, much like
| other consumer hobbies was already a fairly expensive area to get
| invested. You get the machine but then you need a grinder, a milk
| steaming container, the beans, the tamper, the portafilter mesh
| screen, a deeper basket, bottomless portafilter, the "better"
| steamer tip for the wand... On and on you can invest money in
| this consumer hobby, middle man cornered market. Do you have the
| special tool to loosen your grounds if you didn't tamp correctly?
| You'll use it once or twice before just dumping out the grounds
| instead.
|
| I have definitely reached my financial limit on the coffee
| experience. And most of the extra crap I bought bundled. At some
| point if I continue investing, I would not be saving money from
| buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the awkward barista
| waiting for me to tap the tip screen.
|
| When I sell I'll probably just buy a moka pot and milk steamer of
| some sort instead.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| Pareto principle. I bought a Gaggia but didn't do all of the
| extra stuff you mentioned, because I simply don't care enough
| for marginal returns. That's why a moka pot, which I had
| before, would still not be a good enough successor, because
| getting just the Gaggia is enough for most people who want to
| make espresso, the optimizations you talk about, while I have
| heard of all of them, are pretty much unnecessary if you are
| not trying to reach 100% of the output. I am content with 80%
| good enough results.
| righthand wrote:
| The advice though on the market is that if you want a good
| cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine. I
| agree that the gains are marginal. With a PC, I can upgrade
| my ram and the gains might be marginal, but I still have a
| world of free stuff I can install and tinker on it. Once the
| espresso machine is built/upgraded then that's it really. You
| can only buy more things for it. There is no exploratory
| afterward to enjoy really.
|
| I don't agree that a moka pot wouldn't be enough. Percolation
| through a moka pot tastes 10 times better than my Gaggia. My
| Gaggia has no determination when enough is enough, I have to
| count to 20-25 seconds each time I want a cup. I once
| accidentally percolated a cup with it by not refilling the
| resovoir enough. The little water the boiler was able to pump
| out was pure steam and it was my best cup of coffee I had
| with the machine, even if it was maybe detrimental to the
| machine itself.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _The advice though on the market is that if you want a
| good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the
| machine._
|
| The advice from anyone trying to sell you fancy tools and
| from anyone trying to justify to themselves that _they_
| bought fancy tools will always be that _you_ need to buy
| fancy tools in order to enjoy the product. It is, of
| course, an obvious fabrication to anyone not inside this
| loop, and a form of cruelty against someone like you who
| got burned by it and wants out.
|
| > _I agree that the gains are marginal._
|
| Not even marginal. It very very very quickly becomes so far
| below marginal that neutrinos and putting your left leg
| into your pants first instead of the right leg will make a
| more consistent difference, but people will continue to
| exaggerate differences and insist that you need to spritz
| the grounds with holy water and give them a back massage
| first before brewing to make anything halfway palatable.
|
| > _Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better_
|
| And a moka costs $20 and lasts through a nuclear war.
| Thrymr wrote:
| > And a moka costs $20 and lasts through a nuclear war.
|
| Good luck finding quality coffee beans after the war,
| unless your bunker has a coffee plantation attached.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Nuclear war is unlikely to hit anywhere beans are
| actually produced. Nobody out there with nukes is like
| "we gotta wipe out those fuckers in Brazil, Vietnam,
| Colombia, and Indonesia!"
| untech wrote:
| Brazil is a potential superpower. Indonesia is 4th most
| populous country in the world.
| satvikpendem wrote:
| > _I don't agree that a moka pot wouldn't be enough_
|
| Sure, but a moka pot is not espresso, by the definition of
| espresso. It is _like_ espresso, sure, but it does not
| achieve the required pressures to, well, _press_ (hence,
| _espresso_ ) the water through the coffee. That is why I
| stopped using moka pots.
|
| > _The advice though on the market is that if you want a
| good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the
| machine_
|
| That may just be your opinion because I honestly don't see
| any reason to spend more than necessary on espresso, as
| BugsJustFindMe says.
|
| In short, I want _espresso_ , but I do not want anything
| past that point, because the gains are marginal.
| righthand wrote:
| I didn't know anything about coffee going in, I still
| don't really. So it was easy to fool me. That isn't my
| opinion about marginal gains, that was my observation.
| ip26 wrote:
| Espresso is a weird animal. In my experience, there's
| basically "good espresso" and "bad espresso". The fancy
| equipment mostly helps you make the good kind more
| frequently.
|
| Experts can critique your cup, but hitting the sweet spot of
| "good" feels more like 97% of the output. If anything, the
| Pareto principle applies instead to the frequency of "good"
| extraction.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >While it's fun that I got to upgrade the parts and make it
| better. It also cost me just as much money.
|
| Reminds me of the 3D printing hobby, you can buy a cheap
| printer and spend all your time and money tinkering to make it
| better, or you can just spend a little more upfront and spend
| your time printing instead of tinkering.
|
| The espresso folks that like tinkering forget that sometimes
| someone just wants to have one to drink and then get about
| their day.
|
| >At some point if I continue investing, I would not be saving
| money from buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the
| awkward barista waiting for me to tap the tip screen.
|
| It'd be interesting if all of these projects online included an
| ROI statement at the end. I suspect most of them take years to
| pay off, if at all, if you ignore the entertainment value of
| tinkering.
| pier25 wrote:
| Is this a single boiler or hx design?
|
| Had a gaggia classic for a couple of years and I would never go
| back to single boiler.
| arrty88 wrote:
| i wonder if the community can figure a bolt on double boiler
| solution for this easily?
| pier25 wrote:
| At some point I will upgrade to a double boiler but I've been
| happy with an hx machine.
| siliconescapee wrote:
| It is a better-than-1200E machine at the end of the day when you
| look at the components and overall build.
|
| It has PID temperature control (typical) but _also_ pressure
| control. You could build a Gaggiuino for less money and the same
| effort, but you'd be left with a far lower quality piece of
| hardware as the Gaggia hardware has a shitty boiler, plumbing,
| group, and casing.
|
| I'm not a huge fan of vibropumps either, but they're common for
| pressure profiling machines (up to $3-4K) because they're easier
| to control and compact. Moving to a rotary pump would cost ~$300
| more at the component level, so while I'd a reasonable upgrade it
| would hurt the overall economics of the product to make that
| standard.
|
| I still think it's expensive -- I personally would try to hit the
| market with a $999 kit cost if at all possible. The market for
| big spender espresso geeks without a machine is indeed small.
| dehrmann wrote:
| 9 bars of DIY pressure scares me.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Pretty much my thought seeing this too. I don't know how much
| I'd ever want to DIY something that deals with steaming hot
| water at high pressures.
| system2 wrote:
| I was at the China Trade Expo at the Los Angeles Convention
| Center 2 days ago. A brand called Java sold automated espresso
| machines (huge, nearly commercial stuff) for $140. It made a
| great espresso as well. DIY sounds fun but I'd rather spend $140
| and call it a day.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| I have a Consumer Reports subscription and I've seen countless
| videos on YouTube about espresso machines, but after all these
| years I still don't own one.
|
| I'm not an enthusiast. I just want a high quality espresso
| machine that makes consistently good espresso shots. I'm never
| going to be someone who wants to spend 15-30 minutes on creating
| a shot of espresso.
|
| I'm bewildered that a machine that makes hot water push at high
| pressure through a puck of grounds costs more than a high-end
| computer.
|
| What do people buy who don't decant the smell of their own farts
| who just want an espresso machine?
|
| What's the ATH-M50 or the IBM Model M of espresso machines?
| novafacing wrote:
| The breville barista line is what you're looking for.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Thank you!
| selimnairb wrote:
| Looks cool but for me a manual machine like a Flair is ideal. I
| don't have to spend a lot of time or money and I get consistently
| good espresso.
| triyambakam wrote:
| Thanks for the recommendation! I was actually looking for an
| Espresso machine today and the manual operation is very
| appealing, especially because I want do not yet want to invest
| a lot.
| selimnairb wrote:
| Nice thing about the Flair is it is very low maintenance. No
| cleaning (just rinse and dry after use). Just buy new O-rings
| once a year or so for $8.
| shrx wrote:
| The downside of all manual espresso machines is that it's
| difficult to achieve good and consistent head temperatures.
| Pre-heating takes additional time in the brewing process.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| that's sexy af
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| A 1,200 EUR espresso machine you have to put together
| is.........out there.
|
| Having an open firmware appliance is cool. But latching that
| technology onto an espresso machine, something that's existed for
| hundreds of years is ridiculous.
|
| This device is for tech yuppies. Guys in the Bay Area who can
| boast about how their espresso was made open source.
| Beijinger wrote:
| Nice. But I like this one:
| https://jankube.de/espresso_einleitung.php [German, but some
| Espresso porn pics]
| tdeck wrote:
| It's interesting that having a serial number tag is listed as a
| key feature.
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