[HN Gopher] Antibiotics damage the colonic mucus barrier in a mi...
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Antibiotics damage the colonic mucus barrier in a microbiota-
independent manner
Author : cpncrunch
Score : 72 points
Date : 2024-09-12 00:10 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.science.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org)
| nashashmi wrote:
| The standard treatment for H pylori is two antibiotics For 14
| days.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Well, the standard treatment is to ignore it. It's present in
| over a third of people and causes no symptoms.
| throwuxiytayq wrote:
| 20% of patients have symptoms and all carriers are at risk of
| developing cancer.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| All non-carriers are also at risk of developing cancer. How
| much worse does _H. pylori_ make that situation?
|
| Combining some reports from various places:
|
| > Infection of the stomach with H. pylori is not the cause
| of illness itself; over half of the global population is
| infected but most are asymptomatic.
|
| > Infection with _H. pylori_ is responsible for around 89
| per cent of all gastric cancers
|
| ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori )
|
| > 770,000 deaths of gastric cancer were estimated in 2020
|
| ( https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS258
| 9-5... )
|
| 58 million deaths worldwide in 2019 according to
| https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/number-of-deaths-per-
| year ; I picked 2019 instead of 2020 because 2020 features
| a spike in deaths for reasons that I'm assuming are
| unrelated to cancer.
|
| That puts gastric cancer deaths from _H. pylori_ at just
| under 1.2% of all deaths, which frankly seems ridiculously
| high.
|
| https://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/stomach.html
| suggests that stomach cancer is 1.8% of all cancer deaths
| (in the USA), which is perfectly compatible with the above
| statistics as long as cancer is the cause of 67% of all
| deaths.
|
| The death rate from stomach cancer is about 3 per 100,000
| people (in the USA). The overall death rate, per
| https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/79486, is 864 per 100,000,
| putting stomach cancer at 0.3% of all deaths. In the USA.
|
| Is this actually something we worry about? Most people are
| infected; virtually no one gets cancer.
| nashashmi wrote:
| No symptoms? Excess passing of gas and acid reflux and GERD.
| They might be a series of ignored symptoms. Not a lack of
| symptoms.
|
| PSA: get yourself checked. The treatment will literally
| destroy all your gut bacteria and renew your stomach to a
| healthier state. It will be a miserable two weeks though.
| ggm wrote:
| Nothing to remediation or repair in this. So, observational in
| mice, gut is gut and probably a good analogue for any non-
| ruminating mammal. But, how to mitigate, how to repair, what to
| do afterward is missing.
|
| We need antibiotics. I don't want to go back into the world my
| parents lived in before they existed, I'd prefer to be in the
| world I was born into when they still had significant effect
| without wildcat over-use.
|
| Would phage therapy avoid the problem?
| Valgrim wrote:
| I don't think this result reflects all antibiotic treatments:
|
| "RESULTS Oral antibiotic treatment disrupts the colonic mucus
| barrier"
|
| Intraveinous administration may or may not cause the same
| effect, or a similar effect. Maybe oral antibiotics is
| generally a bad idea because it disrupts the microbiome, but in
| other forms it's generally fine.
| Mistletoe wrote:
| It's not permanent. Just take your antibiotics and when you
| don't need them your gut will go back to normal.
| jb1991 wrote:
| Source? This article doesn't say anything about that.
| theultdev wrote:
| They are living, they reproduce. Damaged ones die off.
|
| That's why you're told to take yogurt/other fermented foods
| after taking antibiotics, to provide a reproductive
| environment for them to grow.
|
| However it's still a risk you could kill off a whole
| species and lose their function, so probably best not to
| take antibiotics unless you really have to.
|
| It's an easy analysis process though, you try to recover
| for a couple days, if you cannot and no virus is detected,
| you take antibiotics.
|
| If it's a bacterial infection and it's spreading you have
| to take antibiotics, otherwise you die and all of your
| microbes die with you.
| jb1991 wrote:
| The other comments in this thread about the recovery
| aren't as optimistic as you are. It seems there is
| significant damage and it takes quite a long time to
| recover, if it does.
| theultdev wrote:
| There's many variables, what kind of antibiotic, their
| biome before taking the antibiotics, what microbe species
| were killed and how many were harmed/killed, etc.
|
| There's only a few total comments in this thread overall,
| I counted 2 anecdotes, not exactly a scientific
| consensus.
|
| And people are more likely to comment when something goes
| bad than when something goes good *checks product
| feedback*
| Choco31415 wrote:
| For me that wasn't the case. I took antibiotics as directed
| by my dentist and it caused years worth of issues.
| mikeodds wrote:
| Dairy intolerance?
| Choco31415 wrote:
| To clarify, I was on the medication for six months.
|
| It caused a gut condition that involved nausea, insomnia,
| and made it difficult to concentrate.
|
| It was also causing me psychologically to feel as if the
| rug had been pulled out from under me - I didn't know
| what I was doing anymore.
| majkinetor wrote:
| It can take up to 2 years to recover your gut from AB. There
| are papers about it, cbb to find it now.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| Overprescription of antibiotics and overuse of antibiotics in
| agriculture have both been known as public health risks for
| decades. So perhaps a little more prevention is the best cure
| could help address this.
| woke_neolib wrote:
| Two distinct classes of antibiotics (neomycin and vancomycin)
| seem to induce ER stress in colonic cells which decreases mucus
| production and increases risk of bacterial inflammation etc.
| The point is that there appears to be a direct effect on the
| host mouse physiology. There are other classes of antibiotics
| that do not have this effect, phage would likely be one of them
| (there is a theory that phage provided a persistent immunity by
| dwelling in the mucus).
| junto wrote:
| As a counter to the negative comment about this submission, I'd
| like to state that I really appreciate seeing content like this
| on HN.
| fnord77 wrote:
| I have crohn's disease, who can I sue?
| Diti wrote:
| That's a question you should be asking to your lawyer, not to
| HN.
| Madmallard wrote:
| I have had very high (3x upper limit normal or more) levels of
| fecal secretory IgA ever since I took antibiotics in 2014. Also
| numerous health issues and allergies that developed ever since.
| Nothing has seemed to really work. I have to take antihistamines
| just to not feel like I need to go to the emergency room from
| reacting to things all the time. Pretty tilting since I developed
| these problems at such a young age. It felt like it completely
| robbed my life from me. And I'm fairly certain the antibiotics
| did it because the problems literally just developed in the
| months following, and some almost immediately after taking them.
| One of the drugs, ciprofloxacin, seemed to cause severe
| connective tissue problems that are actually permanent. It is
| over 10 years later and I still extremely readily tear tendons
| and ligaments, when before I took them I never once had any
| problems with any of my tendons or ligaments no matter what I did
| and no matter how often I did it. My first tendon issues ever
| were the month after taking it.
| OutOfHere wrote:
| Did you bother taking or trying some good probiotics and maybe
| prebiotics? How about L-glutamine, collagen hydrolysate,
| vitamin C, MSM, glucosamine, chondroitin? Also quercetin.
|
| There is a newssurvey software that you can use to do some
| automated survey of what's out there (if you don't want to do
| it manually).
|
| My experience with antibiotics has been the opposite, that they
| have saved me more times than one, but then I never used
| ciprofloxacin.
| Madmallard wrote:
| I have tried everything
| OutOfHere wrote:
| Probiotic products can be very diverse in their coverage
| and usefulness. The one I like is Epic Pro 25.
|
| In any case, how about folate as Quatrefolic? It has shown
| relevance in a related issue such as Ehlers-danlos
| affecting connective tissue. It is unclear if your
| homocysteine level is normal or not, but if it's not, it
| can probably be resolved by various B vitamins in good
| forms and doses.
|
| In any case, I doubt you have tried newssurvey software to
| do a survey on:
|
| 1. What causes ciprofloxacin (or its class
| fluoroquinolones) to harm connective tissues?
|
| 2. What is its resolutions, whether pharmacological or
| nutritional or via supplements, or anything else?
| ziggyzecat wrote:
| > 1. What causes ciprofloxacin (or its class
| fluoroquinolones) to harm connective tissues?
|
| mTOR Signaling
|
| Fluoroquinolones are known to affect the mTOR (mammalian
| target of rapamycin) pathway, which is critical for
| protein synthesis, cell growth, and tissue repair. mTOR
| integrates signals from nutrients, growth factors, and
| energy status to regulate cellular anabolic processes
| like collagen synthesis and fibroblast activity. However,
| fluoroquinolones can induce oxidative stress and
| mitochondrial dysfunction, which may disrupt normal mTOR
| signaling. This interference can impair the normal
| anabolic functions of mTOR, potentially leading to
| diminished protein synthesis and weakened connective
| tissue repair.
|
| Mitochondrial Dysfunction
|
| Fluoroquinolones can damage mitochondrial DNA, which may
| reduce ATP production and impair cellular energy
| homeostasis. Since mTOR activity is energy-dependent,
| reduced ATP availability could downregulate mTOR
| signaling, inhibiting processes like fibroblast
| proliferation and collagen synthesis. This could explain
| the tendinopathy and cartilage damage sometimes
| associated with fluoroquinolone use.
|
| Collagen Synthesis and Matrix Remodeling
|
| The anabolic processes that support collagen production
| and extracellular matrix (ECM) remodeling are crucial for
| connective tissue integrity. Fluoroquinolones have been
| observed to impair collagen synthesis by disrupting the
| fibroblast function, and this may be due to their impact
| on the energy-intensive processes governed by mTOR.
|
| Fluoroquinolones have also been reported to cause central
| nervous system (CNS) effects, including anxiety, tremors,
| and other neurological symptoms, suggesting an impact on
| adrenergic pathways. This dysregulation could interfere
| with normal stress adaptation mechanisms, including the
| modulation of inflammatory and regenerative processes in
| connective tissues.
|
| Connective tissue healing depends on the body's capacity
| to manage energy demands and stress responses during
| recovery. Fluoroquinolones can impair mitochondrial
| function and create an energy deficit at the cellular
| level, reducing the ability of fibroblasts to engage in
| critical processes like collagen synthesis and ECM
| remodeling. The systemic impact on both dopaminergic and
| adrenergic systems can further weaken the body's ability
| to manage stress and energy during recovery, exacerbating
| the negative effects on tissue repair.
|
| Fibroblasts and Collagen Production
|
| Fibroblasts are the key cells responsible for producing
| collagen in connective tissues. Under conditions of
| oxidative stress and energy depletion, fibroblasts may
| enter a senescent state, reducing their capacity for
| collagen synthesis and matrix repair. This can lead to
| weakened connective tissue and increased susceptibility
| to injuries like tendon ruptures, which have been
| reported with fluoroquinolone use.
|
| Collagen and Tendon Health
|
| Fluoroquinolone-induced dysregulation of cell signaling,
| energy metabolism, and oxidative stress management all
| converge on a critical issue: the weakening of collagen
| structure and connective tissue integrity. This has been
| particularly evident in the association between
| fluoroquinolones and tendinopathy or tendon rupture,
| likely linked to the disruption of collagen synthesis,
| the downregulation of mTOR, and the stress on connective
| tissue cells such as fibroblasts.
|
| Some Sources:
|
| [ ] https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/130/1/39/5366272
|
| [ ] https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2016/r
| a/c6ra1...
|
| [ ] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physiology/artic
| les/10....
|
| [ ]
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10056716/
| OutOfHere wrote:
| If premature senescence is the mechanism, then quercetin,
| fisetin, and urolithin A are in general extremely
| relevant to fight it. Personally, I make sure to take
| collagen hydrolysate daily to assist the body.
| ziggyzecat wrote:
| Have you tried a 3 to 6 month long retreat at an organic
| farm with no supps and only the meds that you really need?
| You can bring your gear and build games there, too.
|
| I wanted to dive into the production of all the different
| supps for a while but intuition tells me it'll end up in
| some reverse confirmation bias aka "job security and
| esoterically enhanced anti-pla-no-cebo thinking" ... and
| that kills my mood.
| lurking15 wrote:
| Even if you never got a SIBO diagnosis, look into the mBiota
| elemental diet course they offer. 2 weeks of it has been proven
| to normalize the gut microbiome for SIBO patients (methane &
| hydrogen).
|
| I also had a very negative reaction to ciprofloxacin and later
| moxifloxacin (I took them for different infections). In any
| case, I haven't suffered tendon issues just neurological
| effects (hard to describe how my cognition changed but I was
| simply unable to sleep for several days until I stopped the
| medication prematurely).
| Melatonic wrote:
| Sounds possibly like Ankylosing Spondylitis. I'm no doctor
| though
| Madmallard wrote:
| I've had the full-scale workup. Nothing. But the inflammation
| and other issues are plainly visible in the tendons.
| Melatonic wrote:
| If it's not AS then no idea - I assume they did the gene
| testing and whatnot.
|
| Lot of people swear by this odd Japanese fermented food
| called Natto - might help. It's basically just soybeans.
| Uses a very unique bacteria though. Most Asian markets have
| it
| OutOfHere wrote:
| It is most important to take a very good probiotic capsule about
| three hours after taking every antibiotic pill. If you choose not
| to take it, the shock to the gut can be profound. Also, things
| like L-glutamine are good for helping the gut heal to the extent
| that it can.
| algobro wrote:
| Annual vaccines are much more convenient and are preferable to
| one-off treatments like antibiotics, (which reduce the nations
| GDP as well because of they "cure" the problem cheaply), and have
| proven to be safe.
|
| I call for an immediate ban on antibiotics. Only high ranking
| members of society should have access. And people with good
| social credit scores.
| bottom999mottob wrote:
| Unfortunately we still need oral antibiotics for things like
| bottom999mottob wrote:
| Unfortunately we still need oral antibiotics for things like Lyme
| Disease and Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. As tick-borne illnesses
| go up with longer summer seasons, we'll probably have to
| prescribe more antibiotics. Oh well
| theGnuMe wrote:
| Umm, we still need oral antibiotics for A LOT of things..
| bottom999mottob wrote:
| Yes I never disputed that. Just listing an example for why I
| don't think we'll ever be post oral antibiotics
| tmnvix wrote:
| A lot of comments here claiming we need antibiotics. I can't
| disagree. But what can be said about the antibiotics we use on
| livestock? From my understanding it is a heck of a lot. When we
| then eat the meat do we essentially ingest 'unnecessary'
| antibiotics and do they contribute to the type of effect
| described in the article?
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