[HN Gopher] A Uruguayan company teaches people how to turn regul...
___________________________________________________________________
A Uruguayan company teaches people how to turn regular cars into
EVs
Author : Geekette
Score : 213 points
Date : 2024-09-11 16:15 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (restofworld.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (restofworld.org)
| krunck wrote:
| This is what the world needs.
| aanet wrote:
| This is encouraging. We need more of these EV retro-fit kits in
| developing countries, where buying EVs is prohibitively
| expensive. Obviously, we need a way of safety certifying the kits
| and the end product as well.
|
| Uruguay is among the most developed countries [1] in South
| America (2024 nominal GDP per capita: ~$23K; Chile ~$16.5K) with
| human development index of 0.83 (very high). Yet, the list price
| of new vehicles is easily 1.5x - 2x that in the US, and EVs are
| quite out of reach for most residents. (ex: Honda Civic HEV is
| listed for USD 55K [2])
|
| By offering modestly priced EV retrofit kits, a market need is
| clearly being met.
|
| - [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Uruguay - [2]
| https://www.hondauruguay.com/civic-e-hev.html
| floxy wrote:
| > Yet, the list price of new vehicles is easily 1.5x - 2x that
| in the US
|
| I'm assuming this is because of taxes or import tariffs, or
| something similarly self-imposed?
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Yes. Substantial taxes on imports for vehicles from outside
| Mercosur, also taxes based on engine size and a few other
| parameters.
| beaglesss wrote:
| Genius. Incentivize economic production in industries where
| you have less comparative advantage. A common story of
| contribution to poverty in SA, although to be fair Uruguay
| is better than most others on the continent.
| throw_pm23 wrote:
| How do you build that comparative advantage though? You
| think Japan or South Korea didn't have protectionist
| policies until they figured out how to produce such
| things competitively?
| Joker_vD wrote:
| Precisely. The theory of comparative advantage literally
| says "you can't finance e.g. industrialization by the
| market means, it's strictly and highly unprofitable, no
| entrepreneur in their right mind would (or even could) do
| this", yet somehow people routinely tout it as a decisive
| argument for laissez-faire.
|
| And Japan's history of the state support for its
| automotive industry is quite something.
| dietr1ch wrote:
| This got to be negligible next to corruption and the cost
| of being small countries (more prone to market failures,
| small import/export traffic, brain drain).
| spelufo wrote:
| I'm Uruguayan and this drives me crazy. Specially for
| products that are also tools for industries where we can
| and do compete. Buying a computer in Uruguay costs about
| twice as much as in the US.
|
| If this is all self imposed by tariffs, which as far as I
| know it is, what industry are the tariffs really
| defending? Certainly not Uruguayan electronics
| manufacturers, there aren't any. The only people that I
| imagine benefit are customs officers and companies that
| import stuff to sell in Uruguay. There isn't any new
| capability to build things that the country gets in
| return. We learn from exporting talent instead.
|
| And if we want to compete we need to do it globally. Our
| market is too small, the population is ~3M.
| floxy wrote:
| >The only people that I imagine benefit are customs
| officers and companies that import stuff to sell in
| Uruguay.
|
| How do high tariffs help importing companies? Wouldn't
| they be able to sell more (and thus import more) if the
| end prices to the consumer were lower?
| seydor wrote:
| we need this in all countries. In fact it's curious that this
| is not the first priority
| lukan wrote:
| Car companies rather sell new cars, than conversion kits and
| they do have quite a lobby.
| chii wrote:
| It's the same as mobile phones. Most phones have
| unreplacible batteries, because it's commercially better
| for their bottom line.
|
| It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify buying
| a new one, but the battery lose charge significantly over
| time.
|
| A car has similar issues. There are only small parts of the
| car that wears out, and by replacing those parts, the car
| can be made to function for significantly longer. But
| modern cars are so complex and intertwined, that it's
| difficult to just replace worn parts (not to mention
| difficult to even find those parts available).
|
| Hopefully the conversion to EV cars will resolve some of
| these problems, but i dont have high hopes. It's not like
| EV manufacturers are going out of their way to make the
| car's batteries replacible.
| lukan wrote:
| "It's not like EV manufacturers are going out of their
| way to make the car's batteries replacible"
|
| But since electric cars are mechanically a bit simpler,
| there are opportunities for small companies willing to
| disrupt the market or at least find a niche for reliable
| and easy to fix cars.
| chii wrote:
| > willing to disrupt the market
|
| i doubt it, because the whole platform is controlled by
| the EV manufacturer, and they can easily prevent it (via
| software for example). Think inkjet printers.
|
| If EV batteries are to be made replacible, it needs to be
| mandated by law. And to be honest, i think a car's
| battery should be replacible (and be easy/convenient to
| do so) - imagine instead of charging your car, you will
| drive up to a "gas" station and just replace the current
| flat batteries with full ones in a few minutes. Think gas
| stove tanks.
| murderfs wrote:
| > It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify
| buying a new one, but the battery lose charge
| significantly over time.
|
| A five year old car engine is basically indistinguishable
| from a brand new car engine; a five year old cellphone
| chipset is going to have half of the performance and a
| quarter of the performance per watt as a brand new
| cellphone.
| gwervc wrote:
| This is flagrant with the EU raising import tariffs on
| Chinese EV.
|
| There is a lot of communication about the climate
| transition and how electric stuff is needed to save the
| world, but when cheap options are available from China it's
| a big no no because it goes against European manufacturers
| interests.
| jq-r wrote:
| Exactly. This whole scheme won't work in EU because it's
| against car manufacturer's interest. The whole of eastern
| Europe is flooded by second hand German cars and the
| reason is twofold. First, the western Europe still can
| afford to change cars every few years, and secondly, the
| purchase power IMO of the eastern Europe is falling
| behind so second hand cars look more affordable then
| buying a new one.
|
| If I were to install an electric motor in my car there is
| no chance I'm hell that I would be able to make it road
| legal. Last year I bought homologated Philips LED bulbs
| for my car to replace crappy incandescent bulbs and the
| car failed the inspection. "You can't have LED bulbs on a
| car manufactured with incandescents". Doesn't matter that
| the beam is completely correct and doesn't blind other
| drivers, and they have instruments to check it. "It the
| law, go away".
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| To be clear, it's both the manufacturer's interests and
| the interests of European workers. As long as we demand
| from every person that they earn a living, them using
| their political power to protect their national industry
| should be expected. Yes, cheap Chinese EV's are better
| for the environment, but that's small comfort to all the
| people employed by European car companies that are
| getting out-competed who hit the streets as a result.
|
| If we want to start actually tackling climate change we
| need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a
| living because there are simply vast swathes of the
| economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist.
| lukan wrote:
| "If we want to start actually tackling climate change we
| need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a
| living because there are simply vast swathes of the
| economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist"
|
| Or we start tackling some inbalancies. Why is it so much
| cheaper to build in china?
|
| (Mainly less regulations and cheaper labour I think)
|
| But if we would be serious about climate change, we would
| need Chinas and Europes productive capabilities.
| kalupa wrote:
| subsidies
| gregoriol wrote:
| This is useful only in some cases when it's better to keep
| some of the old stuff. It doesn't make sense to convert a
| post-2000 car: it would be very inefficient regarding the
| space use (too much stuff already in, no place for large
| enough battery, ...), the electricity consumption (those cars
| have a lot of electronics/ACs not optimised for batteries),
| and price wise (most of those cars don't cost much today).
|
| It would be much more efficient to create cheap/light EVs:
| today's focus is mostly on expensive/large EVs with a huge
| lot of accessories/screens/... because that's where the money
| is for regular car brands. But if one make could build
| something like a Willys Jeep EV, or a least something like an
| early-90s small car that didn't have all of todays gadgets
| (Renault Twingo, Mini, Volkswagen Coccinelle, ...), they
| would be much more useful for those markets.
|
| Another problem is still electricity grid: in a lot of
| countries, it's not up-to a large scale EV deployment.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Agree but with the logic that "all types" need to be made.
|
| There is a very good market for a car for city dwellers,
| especially as a _second_ car for them. Many families have
| two cars (get over it, that 's reality), but I often see
| them buy that second car as an EV, keeping a gas guzzler to
| assuage range fears.
|
| This is an excellent opportunity for that small, 100km
| range, low tech as you say car. Just batteries, motor. Just
| for local jaunts. Perfect.
| gandalfian wrote:
| "But if one make could build something like a Willys Jeep
| EV"
|
| Look up electric mini moke. Exactly what you are
| describing. Rich man's toy mind. If there's a Chinese knock
| off it could be very cheap though.
| numpad0 wrote:
| And here comes the transparent children of EVs: Mitsubishi
| i-MiEV and Nissan LEAF.
|
| This phenomenon is not so surprising considering that the
| sole point of existence of Tesla was basically to give the
| middle finger to those and the Prius, but they exactly fit
| the criteria of mass market EVs precisely by the letters.
|
| Especially the i-MiEV(pronounced eye-meeve). It was a Kei
| car!
| troyvit wrote:
| I can only say that I'd be a customer for this. I'd much
| rather electrify my old car than throw it away to buy a
| brand new car with a ton of features (and anti-features
| [1]) that I don't want.
|
| If somebody sold a cheap, mostly-analog electric car I'd
| probably buy it. But they probably never will in the US.
|
| [1] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/ar
| ticle...
| planb wrote:
| I doubt this is economically feasible in high-wage countries
| (like Germany). Yes, EVs are expensive, but having a car
| completely transformed (plus certifcations and the cost of
| the transformation kit itself) will be even more expensive.
| prmoustache wrote:
| There are a few companies doing it in EU but most of them
| are focusing on premium classic cars.
|
| For some of those, especially sports car, it can look as a
| sacrilege but I would have no issue converting say, a
| Bentley, Rolls Royce or Jaguar/Daimler coach to electric.
| These used to be built to transport rich people in total
| comfort, you don't need a smelly, noisy engine on them
| anyway.
| planb wrote:
| Exactly what I mean - car freaks (if they are not
| "combustion engine freaks") with enough disposable income
| surely love this. But it's not a feasible way to
| transform the individual transport sector to a greener
| footprint.
| lodovic wrote:
| I wonder how these conversion kits affect safety. These cars
| are crash-tested at a specific weight distribution. Adding
| lots of batteries make the car behave different besides being
| a fire hazard. I would expect that converted cars need to be
| inspected thoroughly before being allowed on the road.
| seydor wrote:
| People already convert gasoline to gas. Weight can be added
| infecto wrote:
| Hard disagree. It does not make sense in most nations with
| higher skilled labor wages. It makes no financial sense
| especially considering you would be spending a hefty premium
| on top of the vehicle itself. Better for that ICE to live its
| useful life as it is.
| pelasaco wrote:
| The issue for the cars owners is that it become harder to sell
| the car later, exactly because of this transformation. So you
| basically transform it and drive until it dies (which is not
| bad from my POV), but that is something that make people think
| twice before doing it.
| fnord77 wrote:
| > We need more of these EV retro-fit kits in developing
| countries
|
| why? fossil fuels will remain economical for at least 100 more
| years.
| psd1 wrote:
| What do you mean by "economical"?
|
| EV already beats ICE in some dimensions of economy.
| fnord77 wrote:
| 10 year TCO for a barebones Prius is lower than TCO for an
| EV, when counting things like battery replacement and
| charger installation.
| abeppu wrote:
| One of the image captions just says:
|
| > Each new component for the vehicle is custom-made.
|
| ... which to me is kinda shocking. Both in terms of the cost of
| components and the labor needed to figure out each vehicle's
| specific conversion, this seems expensive, slow, and perhaps is a
| source of quality/safety concerns.
|
| While I love the idea of being able to convert existing vehicles,
| more cheaply and with fewer resources than building all-new EVs,
| I'd think that you'd want:
|
| - standardized components
|
| - standardized math on safety implications (e.g. for the amount
| of increased mass, how do the breaks need to change to keep a
| reasonable stopping distance? Given some assumptions about
| driving speed, where does the center of mass need to be to avoid
| increased chance of rolling?)
|
| - a slowly expanding database of specifics for each model and
| year, so if you're converting a previously-converted model, you
| can just follow a pre-compiled list of steps
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Well, you're in luck! Most components for converting an ICE
| vehicle to EV are, in-fact standard.
|
| For example, check out evwest.com - they supply parts and kits
| to convert ICE cars to EVs.
| whycome wrote:
| > ... which to me is kinda shocking.
|
| I think they try to avoid this...
|
| > In 2021, the Chilean transport ministry passed legislation
| banning the retrofitting of all used passenger vehicles.
|
| Unless there are major problems, leave the legislation until
| you have a plan or draft regulation ready. It's 2024 now.
| pornel wrote:
| There are off-the-shelf standard components for all major parts
| of the EV drivetrain.
|
| The custom work is mostly in wiring that up, and building a
| battery cradle and motor mounts that can be installed without
| compromising car's original structure.
| chmod775 wrote:
| > Both in terms of the cost of components and the labor needed
| to figure out each vehicle's specific conversion, this seems
| expensive, slow, and perhaps is a source of quality/safety
| concerns.
|
| We are speaking about countries where that sort of labor costs
| between $0.5 to $3 per hour. The parts used aren't factory-new
| and the cost of labor is _minuscule_ in comparison to the price
| of the vehicle.
|
| There is no money for safety. You make do with what you have.
| beaglesss wrote:
| Another poster mentioned after taxes vehicles cost 1.5-2x of
| the US cost. There'd be more money for safety if they weren't
| so busy taxing the everliving shit out of car buyers.
| treme wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pakistan+engine...
|
| you should take a look at how things get done in developing
| worlds.
| elihu wrote:
| As others have said, the article kind of exaggerated the
| situation -- EV conversions tend to use a lot of fairly
| standard parts. However, how those parts all fit together
| varies from one vehicle to another, and there's usually at
| least some parts that have to be custom made. Battery boxes,
| motor mounts, adapter plates to mount the motor to the
| transmission (if the original transmission is kept), and so on.
|
| It'd be great if there were standard EV conversion kits for
| common ICE vehicles, designed to just bolt in with no
| fabrication required, designed to the same engineering
| standards as the original vehicle, and cheap. Something a
| typical mechanic could install in a week or less. That
| basically has to exist for EV conversion be a thing that
| happens on a large scale and not just a difficult and expensive
| weird hobby project. It's a shame EV tax credits don't apply to
| conversions -- it could absorb a substantial chunk of the cost.
| (Maybe some country somewhere does this, but not the U.S.
| anyways.)
|
| Ideally dealing with extra weight and so on could be a relative
| non-issue as long as the battery pack is kept fairly small --
| which is often the case on EV conversions because a) batteries
| are expensive and b) it's often hard to find a good place to
| cram them all. If the batteries are kept low, then center of
| gravity shouldn't be a problem. Probably better than the
| original configuration.
|
| I've heard that having more than 50% of the weight on the back
| tires can be dangerous, as it's much harder to correct if you
| lose traction. The tendency is to spin out. So, putting all the
| batteries in the trunk is probably a bad idea in many cases.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Geometric relationships between engine mounts, engine itself,
| and engine output shaft into the transmission varies between
| each models. Trying to "standardize" that will be like trying
| to design a one-size-fits-all laptop motherboard; no two models
| are the same, so it won't work.
| pornel wrote:
| All the retrofits I've seen only have AC charging. Is there a
| reason why they don't support DC charging, even at lower power if
| necessary?
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Generally speaking since DC charging is so fast, you need to
| have very tight control over the cooling and performance of the
| cells or you'll have issues with longevity. Lots of retrofits
| just kind of stuff batteries wherever they fit... so cooling
| isn't going to be the most effective. By comparison, AC
| charging, even at 12kW, is quite slow for a decent sized
| battery pack.
|
| I don't think there's any technical/protocol reason you
| couldn't do this, it just complicates things quite a bit.
| greenthrow wrote:
| There's more complicated software involved in DC charging due
| to the much higher power levels, plus more complicated
| monitoring of the system. AC charging is much more straight
| forward and simple.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| In other words, cost is the issue here. If you have a large
| budget, you can get the best components. But with a lot of
| conversions, the whole point is giving a second life to an
| otherwise relatively worthless car and avoiding the larger
| expense of getting a proper EV. It doesn't make sense to get
| tens of thousands of dollars worth of components for that.
| Simple, easy, and cheap is the whole goal here.
|
| There are some nice conversion kits for things like classic
| cars where it makes sense to have fast charging. But then
| we're talking 50-60k in cost and a lot of labor. For that
| kind of money, you can get several decent second hand EVs or
| even a new one. Spending that kind of money is only
| interesting because it's a classic car. E.g. a lot of old
| porsches apparently drive a lot nicer and better after an EV
| conversion. Also not having them break down with weird
| mechanical issues all the time makes driving them more fun.
| Also, more torque, power, etc.
|
| But you wouldn't do that with some generic consumer car where
| the whole point of the conversion is avoiding the expense of
| buying a proper EV. You can get some nice used EVs for under
| 10K now. Pretty decent ones even.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Putting DC charging in an EV is like putting a turbo in a gas
| car. You can do it, but it'll be expensive and complicated, and
| you probably don't need it.
| lnsru wrote:
| Well that's not really how it works. Even with 22 kW AC (what
| is rare in Europe) Tesla model Y needs 4 hours to charge from
| empty to road ready. And it is show stopper, because any
| petrol car needs 5 minutes to go another 300-600 miles. With
| DC charger I can have a normal break of 40 minutes and have
| enough charge for another 300 miles. DC charging is the topic
| to ease range anxiety and make EVs viable replacement for
| petrol cars. Without gooood DC charging capability the
| electric cars are suitable as city cars at best.
|
| Edit: model Y does not support 22 kW AC charging. Only 11 kW
| AC. And it still takes whole day to fully charge.
| gambiting wrote:
| The point is that maybe most(some?) people don't need DC
| charging at all. I've owned our VW e-Up for 3 years now,
| drive it literally every day, and I never needed to fast
| charge it because I've not once taken it on a trip longer
| than its battery range. I just never had a need. In fact
| I'm just charging it from a normal domestic socket at a
| meagre 2kW once a week and that's absolutely enough.
| Obviously it won't work for everyone, but I bet it would
| work for a whole range of people - some of my friends have
| definitely never driven more than 100 miles in a day in
| their cars and they lug around 50 litres of petrol in their
| tanks "just in case".
| soco wrote:
| I don't know many cities which would challenge a 400km EV
| range, actually with that range I'm already across the
| border in any direction I'd drive. But okay I'm one of the
| dozen or so people who don't live in the US.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| Large cities in countries where many people can't afford cars,
| and there's little mass transit, will be more compact. No
| driving 10 miles to the mall like the USA. Shorter distances,
| less need for huge battery packs, or the latest technology.
| Most AC parts can be had off the shelf.
| elihu wrote:
| Several reasons: because AC charging is what people will
| generally have at their house, so if you only have one charging
| system that's the one you'd probably go with. Because there are
| several pretty good AC charging system that are sold to the DIY
| conversion market. And because EV conversions often run at
| relatively low voltages compared to OEM vehicles, and DC charge
| stations generally have a minimum voltage they're willing to
| charge, which I think is usually somewhere around 400 volts or
| so.
| janosch_123 wrote:
| I have built multiple EV conversions and used DC charging.
|
| - AC is easier to start with
|
| - DC charging protocols you need to communicate & negotiate
| with the rapid charger in the street
|
| - There is no reason why you couldn't DC charge any conversion
| in principle, just comes down to time & effort
|
| If you want to read more, AC is J1772 and is just a voltage
| dividing resistor with some PWM
| https://www.fveaa.org/fb/J1772_386.pdf
|
| For DC there are two (three?) protocols
|
| - ChaDeMo is being phased out despite being the best one (V2G &
| simplicity of use)
|
| - CCS2 is what the big manufacturers have come up with and it
| is hilariously complicated. My friend Uwe developed the FOCCCI
| project that has reverse engineered it
|
| - In the US Tesla are using NACS (not sure on the details)
|
| I am recording a video series where I illuminate the tech
| behind EVs, charging and energy, you can find it in my
| submissions.
| pornel wrote:
| NACS uses the CCS protocol, which makes dumb adapters
| possible.
| psychlops wrote:
| For those in NJ, I can recommend this place:
|
| https://www.rongrosinger.com/welding-101-sign-up/electric-ve...
|
| I took his class and Ron is great. Sharp, curious and an
| entertaining teacher.
| 3rdworldeng wrote:
| yay my country in HN :-D
| epidemian wrote:
| Username checks out :)
|
| Saludos desde el otro lado del charco!
|
| And, to contribute something to the discussion: yeah, here in
| Argentina we have a similar situation. Import taxes are stupid
| high for some (most) products, making them prohibitively
| expensive for most people. Although high levels of inequality
| allow _some_ people to access these kinds of goods, so for
| exmaple there 's a non-zero market for iPhones here.
|
| In the case of EVs, i haven't seen any cars here yet[1] --i
| suspect because of total lack of infrastructure for them,
| besides the high prices-- but there's quite a lively market of
| electric scooters in Buenos Aires. They are not that expensive,
| and people can charge them in their homes.
|
| This Uruguayan initiative of retrofitting electric motors into
| old cars is encouraging. I hope regulations serve a good
| purpose like setting good standards, instead of killing the
| movement outright :/
|
| [1]: There's an Argentinian-made electric car with which i
| unfortunately share a nickname: Tito. But it's a total scam; a
| Chinese design ripoff with a ridiculously high price for what
| it's worth.
| gcanyon wrote:
| Hi there! I happen to be in Uruguay (from the US) right now,
| congrats on your amazing country!
| olliej wrote:
| I look at car channels on YouTube and there's all this community
| around engine swaps and similar so it remains disappointing that
| there isn't any real gas->EV equivalent market. I assume part of
| it is imply lack of secure space for the giant explosive mass
| that is current lithium battery tech, but it's still surprising
| that there's seemingly next to no option.
| fragmede wrote:
| Getting a salvage title Tesla and converting any other cars to
| use the Tesla drivetrain quite popular on my Youtube.
| XorNot wrote:
| The problem is the vast majority of the cost of an EV is the
| batteries. You save very little money from not buying other
| parts, and lose a fair bit of performance.
| bagels wrote:
| It's expensive and difficult to do. In the end, you're left
| with something that cost you more, and is less capable than a
| new EV.
| RF_Savage wrote:
| It does not exist outside of diy enthusiasts in the west as a
| used electric car will have more range and be cheaper. So
| currently it's an enthusiast thing.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| The majority of people I've seen on car channels (US only) are
| ICE-culturists. Fixers, modders, customizers. EV's a dirty
| word.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| I occasionally see these channels when they do EV conversions
| and it's amusing that they need to do a little disclaimer at
| the start to prove that they're not some kind of Marxist and
| prove their ICE credentials just because they're interested
| in an EV conversion.
|
| You sometimes see similar for anyone working on offgrid solar
| PV.
|
| Possibly it's just the channels the algorithm feeds me but it
| feels like engineering reality is slowly penetrating the
| political fog over time.
| janosch_123 wrote:
| "giant explosive mass that is current lithium battery tech" <--
| full petrol tank is the same, anything that is energy dense
| like that will have problems with uncontrolled release of that
| energy.
|
| Equivalent market exists, but is less established, some
| keywords that might be worth looking at:
|
| - OpenInverter, Fellten, EVWest, diyelectriccar, Lunaz,
| Everrati, RaleighEV, BradshawEV, LegacyEV, RichRebuilds
| gcanyon wrote:
| I happen to be in Uruguay right now (from the US). I rented a car
| -- didn't see an EV option. I've driven from Montevideo to Punta
| Del Diablo and I haven't seen a charging station :-( I wasn't
| looking for one, and checking the map just now, they do exist.
|
| Also: Uruguay is awesome.
| is_true wrote:
| There are a few in the Interbalnearia/IB/Ruta 1.
|
| https://movilidad.ute.com.uy/carga.html?tab=red-de-carga
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| Not surprised you haven't seen EVs for rent, since the charging
| network, although it exists, is woefully unsufficient for non-
| expert users. Montevideo is a city of ~1.5M people and there
| are less than 30 charging stations. It's not viable to charge
| "at home" unless you live in a house; I have never seen an
| apartment buildings garage prepared for EV charging.
| tppiotrowski wrote:
| Can anyone recommend a learning resource or YouTube videos on
| English? (Autolibre has a course but I believe it's only in
| Spanish)
| ksoped wrote:
| There's a lot of videos about EV conversions on YT but they're
| mostly on the edutainment side not a full on course. Watching
| RichRebuilds, JerryRigEverything's jeep conversion gives you an
| overview of the process and they're entertaining if you're
| completely new to the idea.
| trhway wrote:
| The conversion is labor intensive, and thus it makes sense in the
| countries where labor is relatively cheap (and regulations are
| usually more relaxed), and has no way in the US and Western
| Europe.
|
| The conversion itself is no brainer - you old beat up car with
| the older and weaker and relatively inefficient ICE engine, may
| be even carburetor one, becomes more performant, easier to
| maintain, cheaper to drive (especially given that electricity is
| frequently government subsidized). And the conversion is pretty
| cheap if you bring the parts from Alibaba, the prismatic
| batteries for example are well under $100/KWh.
| kleiba wrote:
| This makes me wonder though wheather the grid infrastructure in
| Uruguay is ready for a scenario where a substantial percentage of
| the countries cars need to charge their batteries regularly?
| trhway wrote:
| Charging at night at home - and that is your main option when
| charging infra is lacking - may even be an improvement for the
| nation grid's overall health and economics.
| saagarjha wrote:
| This is unfortunately problematic in places where the grid is
| transitioning to solar power. It really depends on what the
| makeup of your base load is.
| alex_duf wrote:
| And I'll also add that night-charging can only scale up to
| a point, there's a point where the country would end up
| consuming more at night than during the day.
|
| So it really depends on the local situation, local energy
| mix, local infrastructure.
| adrianN wrote:
| Charging at a couple of kW for the night is enough for
| almost everybody. Very few people drive hundreds of
| kilometers every day and the typical EV needs
| 10-20kWh/100km. The grid should handle that without a
| problem in most places, I think. Cars are parked most of
| the day. If most of the parking spots offer a kW or two
| charging becomes a nonissue.
| trhway wrote:
| Solar power is new development, and it would be naturally
| to do it in parallel with charging infra in business
| districts thus providing another sink for all that daytime
| generated power.
| nachexnachex wrote:
| The (state-owned) power company owning the grid and much of the
| generation for the country has been pushing this change
| forward. The country has transitioned from almost pure hydro to
| wind and has an excess of this type of generation, especially
| at night when it would be the ideal charging time.
|
| There's also initiatives to encourage permanent grid use by the
| cars since the batteries can provide capacitive load which
| locally counters the grid's natural inductive load which is
| beneficial if it can be leveraged.
| lokimedes wrote:
| What is the evolution regarding energy density, I have a PHEV
| with 11kWh in the trunk. If it was 20kWh, it would cover my daily
| commute. Are anyone offering battery upgrades to existing EVs?
| gambiting wrote:
| I'm in the same boat - I have a Volvo PHEV with an 11.6kWh
| battery, and Volvo upgraded that battery in newer models to
| 18.8kWh. And the thing is....the battery takes the exact same
| space as before - it was just an improvement in battery
| packaging which allowed them to do this. But....I can't fit
| this newer battery to my car, even though it would physically
| fit - the systems inside the car will not allow it to work. If
| there was a company that offered this as a paid upgrade for my
| car I'd gladly pay for it.
| saagarjha wrote:
| That's a pretty long commute you've got there :(
| lokimedes wrote:
| yeah, 50km each way.
| dhosek wrote:
| I think my longest commute was 50 _miles_ (Claremont to El
| Segundo). I used to drive to the Norwalk end of the Green
| Line to reduce the drive time at the expense of commute
| time by taking the train the last stretch of the commute.
| It's a little stunning to think about all the sense
| memories I have from that commute 30 years later.
| mharig wrote:
| The new solid electrolyte batteries have around 450 Wh/kg, the
| old liquid electrolyte ones around 270 Wh/kg. Or less for LFP.
| lukan wrote:
| You seem shadowbanned and I had to vouch for this comment to
| make it visible. Your last comments seem ok, so maybe you
| want to mail dang (the moderator) about your account.
| Animats wrote:
| Electro Automotive did this in California for 30 years. The owner
| recently retired and shut down. There's something of a business
| in converting classic cars to electric, because maintaining the
| antique technology costs more than a conversion. There are plenty
| of kits for this sold online.
|
| The usual "custom part" needed is an adapter plate to attach the
| motor to the transmission, and possibly a spline. Plus motor
| mounts. Once you have the adapter plate pattern for a car model,
| it's possible to drill one from a blank. Here are some
| adapters.[1]
|
| Where to put the battery? Real electric cars put it under the
| floor, which keeps the CG low and provides enough space for a
| large battery. Conversions have less battery space and may be
| top-heavy.
|
| [1] https://inductiveauto.com/product-category/adapters/
| stavros wrote:
| Wouldn't you put the battery in the massive space created by
| the missing engine block?
| gambiting wrote:
| No, because that space is still occupied by all the auxiliary
| devices that still have to be there, and of course the
| electric motor which - while smaller than most ICEs - is
| still sizable. Converted cars have less space under the
| bonnet than most people would guess.
| Animats wrote:
| That's where the electric motor goes in retrofits.
| claudiulodro wrote:
| Beyond space concerns, there are balance concerns. You could
| fill the trunk or hood with batteries, but that adds 1000+
| pounds to the end(s) of the car, so it will be a poor driving
| experience (for reference, a good size ICE engine is ~500
| lbs). The best EV conversions spread the batteries throughout
| the car so it remains balanced (but that's pretty complex in
| terms of packaging and wiring).
| stavros wrote:
| Interesting, thank you. This means that you need a 500 lbs
| motor/battery/circuits combo in the front of the car after
| the conversion, right?
| claudiulodro wrote:
| Not necessarily! The front of the car could be lighter or
| heavier as long as the total car is balanced. This is the
| way that the high-end EV conversions do it (e.g.
| https://revoltsystems.com), but most at-home EV
| conversions simply fill the trunk with batteries which is
| way simpler but won't be nearly as good a driving
| experience (e.g. https://ev8electric.wordpress.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2015/05...)
| Keppl8R wrote:
| Here is one from Australia
|
| "Bolt-On Kit Wants To Turn Your ICE Car Into A Hybrid From
| $3,200" October 21, 2023
|
| > The young Australian engineer behind the kit hopes to sell it
| for just $3,200 and enable buyers to have it installed in a
| single day
|
| https://www.carscoops.com/2023/10/bolt-on-kit-to-convert-com...
|
| Looks like a backyard operation so far "REVR (Rapid Electric
| Vehicle Retrofits)"
|
| https://www.revr.tech/
|
| https://www.jamesdysonaward.org/en-AU/2023/project/revr/
|
| REVR-lutionising the car industry: RMIT student crowned national
| James Dyson Award winner with electric vehicle retrofit solution
| 13 September 2023
| https://www.dyson.com.au/newsroom/updates/james-dyson-award-...
|
| (Sorry for all the links! but looks like an interesting way to do
| the conversions!)
| freefruit wrote:
| https://www.revr.tech/news
|
| Poor guys workshop burt down.
| Keppl8R wrote:
| Yikes! Looks hopeful as of 3rd of September they say the
| following on facebook:
|
| > Just a small mid-late month update. Thanks again to
| everyone who has donated. Small and big all donations make a
| big difference for our prototyping effort. We are now just
| waiting on coils and cnc to come through which should be a
| week or so. We finished clearing away all the rubble from the
| fire and the new shed is now built and sealed ready to start
| housing REVR! We have had some very productive discussions
| and vid calls with people looking to help make REVR happen
| which we may be able to elaborate on in future. We have also
| entered the Samsung Solve For Tomorrow comp to promote REVR.
| There is some more good competition news we can't wait to
| share. Will have some more substantial updates very soon. -
| Alex
|
| https://www.facebook.com/revretrofits/
| schnitzelstoat wrote:
| Do they have charging stations?
|
| I don't have an EV in Southern Europe because there are hardly
| any charging stations and as we live in apartments you can't
| charge it at home either as the communal parking doesn't have a
| charging station.
| torginus wrote:
| Which is weird, considering there's 3 phase AC 400V
| infrastructure everywhere in Europe. Putting 7-11kW slow
| chargers in every apartment's parking lot would be perfectly
| doable.
| abc123abc123 wrote:
| Do note that many apartment buildings in europe are 100+
| years old and where not built with parking lots.
|
| Commonly, cars are parked on the street outside, and
| therefore there is definitely not enough space outside an
| apartmentbuilding for cars if all apartment owners had one.
|
| In modern, and newly built apartment buildings I imagine that
| this is probably already in place due to eco-hysteria.
| torginus wrote:
| If there's no parking lot, that's a car problem, not an EV
| problem. This is a hairy issue, but in my experience,
| getting around in densely packed city centers with a car is
| asking for trouble - dense traffic and generally no parking
| spaces.
|
| I did use to live in a place like that, and I stored my car
| in a P+R on the outskitrts of the city.
| prmoustache wrote:
| > in every apartment's parking lot
|
| Provided there is a parking lot.
|
| Even owning an EV motorbike is sometimes difficult, I have
| been looking for an e-motorbike/moped and there are only a
| couple of models with an extractible battery and only one I
| have found that has the battery that is easily transportable
| (you pull it like a trolley bagage) when your bike is staying
| in the street: The Silence S01 and S02 (S01 being also sold
| under the Seat brand).
| forinti wrote:
| I visited Uruguay every year in the 1980s and 90s. There were
| tons of old cars and trucks. My great-uncle had an English car
| from the 1930s which he still drove.
|
| They have almost all disappeared. My most recent trip was in 2023
| and I only saw two old Fiat 500s.
|
| The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard of
| until last year.
|
| Anyway, Uruguay is a small country but it has a very good
| educational system, so it's not surprising that many interesting
| companies come from there.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard
| of until last year
|
| BYD bought out a failing automotive company decades ago which
| became BYD Auto, and continued building ICE cars. They only
| began mass producing EVs in the 2010s after getting a massive
| cash infusion from Berkshire Hathaway and Blackrock around
| 2008-09
| zubiaur wrote:
| They had the tooling for 9th gen corollas, which they fitted
| with mistubishi engines. One cold take a BYD F3 door and put
| it in a corolla. Fit like a glove.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| They're also doing well on share of new cars that are EV:
|
| https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/20/uruguay-ev-sales-report...
|
| Makes a lot of financial sense when your local grid is hydro
| heavy and most of your oil is imported.
| jnsaff2 wrote:
| There is a thriving forum for ev conversions[0].
|
| [0] https://openinverter.org/forum/
| janosch_123 wrote:
| Yep, especially the project forum is full of successful
| conversions:
|
| https://openinverter.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=11
|
| Also, this community is built around open source (software and
| hardware) components.
| Dennip wrote:
| Is there a reason not more popular to create hybrids that have no
| traditional powertrain? IT seems like it would be cost effective.
|
| i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to the
| batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer
| case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
|
| If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub you
| don't need any kind of axle at all.
|
| If/when the batteries degrade and lose capacity, you can just
| rely on the engine more.
|
| The engine won't ever have to 'work' too hard, because when you
| accelerate hard the energy dump can just come from the battery
| reserve. Like it could just idle along at a more-or-less fixed
| rpm.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Such a setup is vastly less efficient for small engines. If the
| combusion engine is turning, the best way to use that power is
| directly to the wheels, as opposed converting it back and forth
| to electricity.
| Dennip wrote:
| It would be interesting to see the numbers I guess. For one,
| the manufacturer is offloading that energy burden onto the
| owner, not themselves.
|
| IIRC A large portion of the carbon created by a car is during
| the manufacture, so if you're not forging a prop shaft and
| machining a gearbox, is it acceptable to reduce engine
| efficiency by some measure? Especially given the engine won't
| run all the time, just when the battery drop to some margin
| the car feels it should start charging.
|
| Potentially (theorising here) Your EV will last longer before
| getting crushed into a cube, as it can compensate for battery
| degradation, your engine will last longer as it will have a
| fairly stable usage load (revs etc) and won't be used much
| _visgean wrote:
| my understanding was that you can run the gas engine in
| optimal speed to charge the electric engine which makes it
| more efficient.
| bluGill wrote:
| You can also add more gears in the transmission to make it
| more efficient as well. Gears are very efficient than
| conversion to/from electric (that is a series model, not
| even charging a battery.) The only way to make this work is
| if the engine is very undersized - the more load an engine
| is under the higher the efficiency, with gears alone though
| you would end up with an engine that takes unacceptably
| long to get up to speed, and slows down when going uphill,
| or into a headwind. If you are going ICE to battery you can
| have that undersized engine, and make up the extra losses
| by using the battery when needed, hence a hybrid car.
| bluGill wrote:
| Such a setup can be more efficient - but only if everything
| is tuned perfectly. ICE engines are generally most efficient
| at low RPM and high throttle settings (last time I saw the
| graphs it was 1950RPM at 87% throttle peaked at 43%
| efficient, but that was one particular engine: yours will be
| different) - so you the entire system tuned around this,
| mistakes mean you either are running lower throttle or
| spinning extra mass not needed. Very few companies have the
| ability to design an engine around their exact needs - only
| the large automakers can really pull it off and they
| typically trade engines with other auto makers so they can
| offer more engine options in their cars than they have
| designed.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| > ICE engines are generally most efficient at low RPM and
| high throttle settings
|
| Which is why modern cars are much more likely to include a
| sixth gear -> drop the rpm, increase the torque = higher
| efficiency
| Dennip wrote:
| I guess the principle would be that you just don't care.
| The cost savings of not designing a powertrain/gearbox, not
| manufacturing it, reduced moving parts needing maintenance,
| etc etc. The trade-off _might_ be worth it.
| bluGill wrote:
| The geabov is cheap to design compared to the engine. Not
| free but cheap.
| WalterBright wrote:
| But isn't that the same as a diesel-electric locomotive,
| which is very efficient?
| hwillis wrote:
| Not true. What a series hybrid does is give you big-engine
| power for small-engine efficiency. Pull onto the highway and
| you get 350 hp from the battery, which the engine recharges
| at a steady 50 hp. If you have a big engine you are only
| losing efficiency.
| mapt wrote:
| This is not _necessarily_ true, but it is often true for
| consumer car models that are already designed in quite
| complex ways around driveshaft power, with abundant
| compromises and costs. It 's never "directly" transferred;
| Not even close. Something like an automatic transmission is a
| miracle of engineering perspicacity over the decades. If
| you're going to spend thousands of dollars including one
| based on driveshafts, then electric conversion looks a bit
| silly.
|
| In locomotives, some ships, and now tanks they're replacing
| the whole drivetrain with copper wire driven by an ICE
| alternator. Even with zero energy storage this permits a
| dramatic simplification of the vehicle, and often we're more
| than willing to pay the cost of
| mechanical->electric->mechanical conversion efficiency in
| exchange for losing a bunch of cams, gears, and 90 degree
| joints that each eat a little energy, take up space in the
| design, and weigh a significant amount. And it is very often
| the case that adding energy storage (a very simply bolt-on +
| software changes) permits dramatically reducing the size of
| the engine needed.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Small engines are very different than big. They have very
| different needs re weight and complexity. A locomotive
| drive engine is basically mated to its power generating
| engine, moving in lockstep. Everything gets more
| complicated when one also wants to charge a battery. (Fyi,
| many locomotives have huge banks of resisters specifically
| for dumping energy into heat, which is not an option for
| cars.)
|
| Separating charge and power deliver requires two motors, a
| power-harvesting generator connected to the combustion
| engine and a separate drive motor. Those would need to be
| electrically separated since they would be always turning
| at different rates. That means totally separate charge and
| discharge circuitry, possibly even separate battery banks.
| Harvesting from the wheels might even require a third
| circuit to simultaneously charge from two sources. And the
| drive motor equipment would have to be sized large enough
| to cover the entire rated power output. Secondly, such a
| battery-in-line arrangement may create a battery-essential
| system whereby if the battery failed/discharged/overheated,
| the vehicle would just stop despite still having a working
| combustion engines. (The power direct from the generator
| may not be compatible with the drive motor.)
|
| Modern hybrids bypass all these problems by routing the IC
| engine to the wheels. The electrical system is then a
| single motor and an additional sprocket in the
| transmission. Power is then added or removed through a
| single motor and associated circuitry with no need to
| generate and provide electrical power simultaneously (F1
| cars used to work like this). Add an extra differential,
| aka a "hybrid transmission", and you can run either motor
| alone or together (as in the Prius).
| lmz wrote:
| Doesn't the Prius also have _two_ motor /generators
| instead of a single motor?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| It had a motor and also used the IC starter motor to
| harvest energy, but not to provide power.
| numpad0 wrote:
| That's Nissan e-POWER system. Alas, Toyota THS is cheaper,
| probably lighter, and slightly more efficient.
| hnuser123456 wrote:
| chevy volt
| chakintosh wrote:
| Audi built and competed with a Rally car using a regular TFSI
| engine that's generating power for the battery.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhtGlwHlLs
| schmidtleonard wrote:
| Isn't that the idea behind EREVs (Extended Range EVs) which are
| wildly popular in China and probably just taking time to reach
| other markets?
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| There have been several popular cars available in the US and
| EU with this design, like the Chevy Volt and BMW i3.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| The issue with an EREV conversion is going to be weight,
| practicality, and thermal management of the battery.
|
| Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this with
| ~20 miles of ev range. Suspension may need to be altered to
| support this.
|
| Practicality: the batteries have to go somewhere and they can't
| go under the hood since the engine is still there, so they may
| go in the bottom of the trunk. From the examples I've seen
| there's usually less cargo capacity, and the spare tire is
| removed. Some vehicles that are already hybrids (e.g. Toyota
| sienna 2022-) have an already tight layout with exhaust and all
| that it becomes a design challenge to fit a larger battery.
|
| Thermals: a li-ion battery for an EREV likely needs thermal
| management so it doesn't lose range prematurely, so you either
| need a dedicated cooling line setup that works with the ac
| compressor (bmw i3) or an aircooled setup where the battery is
| in the trunk and relies on cabin ac/heat (various toyota hybrid
| models do this).
| hwillis wrote:
| > Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this
| with ~20 miles of ev range.
|
| No. The drive unit of a Tesla + 4 battery modules weighs 500
| lbs. That's 21 kWh, 80 miles of range and 500 horsepower. And
| 300 lbs of that is in the drive unit; more common conversion
| kits weigh ~150 lbs. You could use 500 lbs of regular lead
| car batteries and still get way more than 20 miles.
|
| https://stealthev.com/product/tesla-performance-rear-
| drive-u...
|
| https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&pro.
| ..
| horsawlarway wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree. You would need 24 LFP prismatic EVE
| cells (Which are EV rated) to get to ~20kWh (72v at
| ~300ah). They weigh about 5.5kg/cell. That's nearly 300lbs
| in cells alone (not accounting for wiring/support/cooling).
| I would pretty easily see total weight hitting 500lbs (or
| more).
|
| You can do it more efficiently with different chemistries,
| and you can scale down your storage for less range - but
| 500lbs seems pretty reasonable for a retrofit.
|
| Ex - your own linked kit doesn't include any storage, and
| the motor alone weighs 120lbs. There is NO WAY you're
| getting away with 150 lbs when the motor alone eats 120lbs.
|
| Lead acid... come on... a 100ah 12v lead acid (1.2kWh - of
| which only .6kWh is really usable because of chemistry)
| weighs 70lbs on a good day. A normal EV will do 3-4/kwh.
| 5kWh of usable charge (20 mile range) from those things is
| going to run you 10 batteries, for 660lbs. And that's NOT
| including any other parts of the retrofit (like that 120lb
| motor, or the wiring [thick wire is heavy] or the
| electronics).
| seltzered_ wrote:
| My points of comparison are simpler - compare a 2019-2023
| Subaru Crosstrek (regular non-hybrid model, curb weight of
| 3117-3298 lbs ) to a 2019-2023 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid
| (PHEV, ~17 miles of EV range, curb weight of 3717 lbs). So
| roughly a 400-500lb weight increase.
|
| Another comparison might be a Jeep Wrangler base 4dr (4449
| lbs curb weight and up) compared to the 4xe PHEV version
| (21 miles of ev range, 5,072 lbs curb weight and up).
| Roughly a 500lb weight increase.
|
| You could try this comparison on 2wd vehicles as well if
| desired (e.g. toyota prius vs. prius prime).
|
| While neither scenarios are an EREV, the comparison is a
| bit similar in thinking about the tradeoffs in hybrid
| conversions of existing ICE vehicles, where presumably the
| engine would be retained and drivetrain/battery components
| to facilitate electric propulsion are added.
|
| Designing an EREV from ground up can be much less weight
| but depends on vehicle type size, such as a BMW I3 (a small
| urban 2WD car with CFRP body panels, narrower staggered
| wheels and other weight savings by design) has a curb
| weight closer to 3276 lbs. There's tradeoffs with that low
| weight - the small range extender engine has less power,
| the gas tank only adds about 80 miles of range, etc.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Having a small engine (lawnmower size) that doesn't generate
| enough power to operate the car, but will charge the battery,
| would seem like a nice convenience because you won't
| necessarily need a charging station to continue your trip.
| bogwog wrote:
| I know BMW had (has?) a hybrid that does this using a small
| motorcycle motor.
| hwillis wrote:
| > i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to
| the batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer
| case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
|
| But you can't take advantage of that without handling every
| specific make of car. You need to design a specific solution
| for each engine.
|
| > If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub
| you don't need any kind of axle at all.
|
| This has a lot of downsides; the unsprung weight is very high
| which makes the ride much harsher. It's also very hard on the
| motors because of the shaking. There's only a few inches of
| space to claim in a normal wheel well by replacing and widening
| the tire. If you replace the suspension knuckle you have to
| make it work for all different makes.
|
| All that said, I do think there's an underserved opportunity
| for a drop-in solution that just replaces the engine. Basically
| the same thing you're proposing, but why keep the old engine?
|
| Replace it, and you can make a series-parallel hybrid, which is
| the ideal type. It's an engine connected by a clutch and single
| reducer to the driveshaft, with a motor connected to the engine
| (or by gears). At low throttle the motor acts like a generator,
| using the opportunity to increase engine load, charge the
| battery, and run the engine in a more efficient torque. At high
| throttle the motor joins the engine, increasing power. At
| cruise, the motor freewheels. For short trips the engine
| disconnects and the car runs on battery. You don't need an
| additional generator, the engine gets an efficient shaft
| connection, and it can still run battery-only. Best of all
| worlds and IMO worth trashing the engine.
|
| If you drop in a full unit with batteries etc you might need a
| few configurations for different engine bays, but you can just
| have a variety of mounting points for different makes. Plug
| into the radiator for cooling. Give a serpentine belt wheel for
| accessories, or just have an AC onboard and use a spool valve
| to split some off to col the batteries better.
| ajot wrote:
| Reminds me of Exponential Motors, a startup/project created by a
| chilean, an argentinean and a mexican in Singularity University,
| who made somo prototypes converting cars to hybrids with
| supercapacitors.
|
| https://exponentialmotors.com/
| tiahura wrote:
| Wouldn't it be cheaper just to drive actual golf carts than to
| pay to convert?
| psd1 wrote:
| It would be cheaper still to commit suicide directly, and less
| likely to affect other road users.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Yes. Used Nissan LEAF is like $1500 at the lowest end. Same for
| Prius. Lots of them should be able to continue to roll on the
| ground for a decade or so on bald tires. It'll be very hard to
| undercut those.
| dhosek wrote:
| Back in the 90s, I carpooled with a friend who had a retrofitted
| Honda CRX. I remember the first time he picked me up in it, we
| rolled out of my driveway and then started down the street and I
| was wondering when he'd turn the engine on and stop relying on
| gravity to move the car (I used to use the same trick with my
| stick-shift Miata) and then I realized that he was, it's just
| that the electric motor was _silent_.
|
| The other fun thing was watching the battery gauge fall as we
| went up the ramp on the 10-57 interchange in San Dimas. Being an
| early adopter, the commute from Claremont to Orange County was
| just within the range of his EV. He later went on to be one of
| the first lessees of the EV1 and was interviewed in _Who Killed
| the Electric Car?_
| WalterBright wrote:
| The key innovation to make Tesla a success was regenerative
| braking along with the transmission to make it work.
|
| Just replacing the engine with an electric motor and batteries
| works, but is significantly inferior.
| skrebbel wrote:
| I don't disagree, but I also think that the key innovation that
| Tesla did was to make EVs cool (or at least, non-dorky).
| kobalsky wrote:
| > (or at least, non-dorky).
|
| I always expected the tinfoil hats to raise up when many
| mainstream series made fun of prius owners being pretentious
| dorks, or when Musk came out of the closet as a republican
| and everyone started hating the brand [1].
|
| I half expected them to say that it was the work of big-oil.
|
| [1] https://slate.com/business/2023/07/elon-musk-tesla-
| owners-tw...
| dwallin wrote:
| Regenerative braking is so far from being an innovation on
| Tesla's part. Regenerative braking as a technology has been
| around since 1886, and was even seen in some of the earliest
| electric cars at the end of the 19th century (krieger electric
| landaulet).
|
| Even when you fast forward to modern production cars, the Prius
| had a regenerative braking system almost a decade before the
| Tesla Roadster came out.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Regular cars were carefully designed to fold like an accordion in
| case of impact, so people will be safe
|
| Now add to the equation a big flammable battery below the people
| in the areas designed to fold and you will have a lot of
| scorching fun if the car that you drive eventually hit something.
|
| Do we really need to explain why this is a recipe for trouble?.
| jongjong wrote:
| This is amazing. It's a shame how western media and governments
| aim to cover up such information and then try to regulate the
| movement out of existence... Again under the guise of 'safety'.
|
| If this movement picks up, you know for sure that governments
| will be doing PsyOps to stage and draw attention to battery
| explosions and then claim "Look, we told you it was unsafe."
| Disgusting.
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