[HN Gopher] FTC Pushed to Crack Down on Companies That Ruin Hard...
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FTC Pushed to Crack Down on Companies That Ruin Hardware via
Software Updates
Author : lg_rocket
Score : 158 points
Date : 2024-09-09 19:02 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.techdirt.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.techdirt.com)
| nickphx wrote:
| I had a bose sound bar, just a week outside of warranty, brick
| itself with a forced update. Surprisingly, bose replaced the
| sound bar when I contacted them for support..
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| We've lowered our expectations so much that common decency like
| that is now "above and beyond".
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Indeed, I'm not sure why software gets so much leniency. If a
| Bose technician had broken in at night and desoldered the
| speakers' MCU I don't think anyone would be this generous
| with their expectations.
| christkv wrote:
| This is why none of my brand new appliances will ever be
| connected and allowed a firmware update.
| subhro wrote:
| Well, sometimes updates are not for "new" features but also
| for fixing core stuff.
|
| Did I ever tell you, I "love" software engineers and their
| mentality of "ship first, fix bugs later"?
|
| /s
| John_Cena wrote:
| How can I push back against PMs and suits when they want
| stuff like this? I think whatever I think to say or have
| said is just talking past them; they don't seem to care
| about the ability of the product, just that it appears good
| enough to sell.
| ranger_danger wrote:
| Until it becomes a requirement.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| It's often a requirement to use any smart features. My SIL
| has a coffee maker that requires an Internet connection to
| program the delayed start. It still has all the buttons of
| the previous generation that ostensibly allow you to have
| your morning coffee ready when you get up, but blinked at
| her demanding an SSID before you could use the interface;
| now it can do whatever they want it to do. Ostensibly, you
| can set more options and set them more easily from a phone
| app over the cloud, but practically I just want the coffee
| to be hot and ready at 6:05 AM.
| rurp wrote:
| Avoiding anything labeled "Smart" is a great way to
| massively reduce cognitive load and improve reliability
| around the house. I recently replaced my old cheap coffee
| maker that finally broke with a new cheap coffee maker.
| It took about 5 seconds to set the timer for the next
| morning and I'm confident that's the last I'll have to
| think about it for years to come.
| christkv wrote:
| I'm talking my ovens, cooking top, washer and drier. It's
| all Siemens and it works perfectly not being connected so i
| can only imagine downsides by connecting it.
| m463 wrote:
| Then it gets returned. "requirements" are a two-way street.
| roninorder wrote:
| I started just sending broken products back to Amazon. My DENON
| smart speaker broke outside of warranty (1.5 years), so I
| bought a new identical speaker and returned the broken one.
|
| It's unethical but I am just tired of paying $$$ for products
| that break right after warranty ends.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| I did exactly this with a busted ASUS monitor. Bought a 43"
| 4K display for my desk and it failed after barely 2 months of
| use. Contacted ASUS and their support said they'd be happy to
| fix it under the warranty, after I sent the item to their
| repair facility in Texas, on my own dime. A 43" monitor.
| Would've costed me $180.
|
| Fucking ridiculous. I ordered a second if for no other reason
| than to get back to work, and _that one arrived broken!_ But,
| fortunately, the power supply was in-tact so I took them both
| apart, constructed a working one, kept it and returned the
| broken parts. If whoever 's fulfillment can't even be fucked
| to check the ones they're shipping out to see if they're
| shattered, I figured it was long odds anyone would even care
| if I did it. And I never heard a thing about it.
|
| And an interesting side note, I received refunds for _both_
| purchases. I have no idea why, but clearly some folks working
| at either Amazon or ASUS aren 't too on the ball.
|
| And the monitor I built still works too, so.
| roninorder wrote:
| This is becoming the most valuable benefit of buying on
| Amazon. At least I can always return a broken product and
| not just eat the cost of the ever-decreasing quality of
| consumer electronics.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Previously:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41455273
|
| Actual letter:
| https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/group-letter-f...
|
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41455726)
| swframe2 wrote:
| MS removed support for mixed reality in windows 11 24H2 which
| made all windows VR headsets unusable (except MS's headset). I
| wonder if that counts.
| notfed wrote:
| Just speculating here but I assume law will answer this with
| one word: "intent". Did MS design this with the intention of
| planned obsolescence, or was it reasonable to impractical to
| avoid?
| subhro wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/sousvide/comments/1e6su45/anova_dis...
|
| Morons.
| bearjaws wrote:
| I have been working to eliminate all my wifi IOT devices.
|
| Years ago I gave them a separate guest network / vlan to use,
| with only 5mbit of bandwidth.
|
| The only thing I have left is some ip cameras and my roborock
| vacuum.
|
| We seriously need a local first law that enables all these
| devices to work 100% on local wifi.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| Just look at the ones that support Tasmota (or ESPhome).
|
| Those use opensource software, integrate nicely into home
| assistant, and well.. are "local first".
| simcop2387 wrote:
| For lights and relays (haven't bought the others yet) i;ve
| been really hapoy with the quality of athom devices. Tasmota,
| esphome and wled support natively.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I really wish that what we got instead of "Hey, your device can
| connect to smart-things.com and do stuff, ain't that need!" we
| had "Hey, this device speaks Protocol 1.2.3 over bluetooth
| which you can import to smart-things.com or other services".
|
| There really is no reason why a phone couldn't, for example,
| have a home management app on it that manages all the IOT
| devices over bluetooth or other protocols directly rather than
| needing an internet connection.
| vineyardmike wrote:
| This exists, it's "Matter", and it's a smart home local-first
| IP based protocol. It's available through the SmartThings,
| AppleHomeKit, and GoogleHome apps, as well as other smaller
| companies (eg. Alexa).
|
| It can operate over WiFi/Ethernet, as well as thread and
| Bluetooth.
|
| Edit: the implementation is also open source, and you can
| roll your own
| schmidtleonard wrote:
| Does pairing (or network joining or whatever it's called)
| work in Matter? Or is this going to be like Bluetooth where
| 30 years later the most fundamental underlying workflow
| still finds new and innovative ways to be completely broken
| for the most basic tasks?
| meepmorp wrote:
| Iirc, Matter uses BT LE for adding devices; not sure if
| that's required or just a supported option, though.
|
| Yay?
| ssl-3 wrote:
| Pairing mostly works. Matter is still "new", despite
| having been in the cooker for a few years, and there are
| glitches to the setup process, but it works eventually.
|
| I've got a few cheap Matter light bulbs that I've picked
| up mostly just to play with, starting a few months ago.
|
| This fleet has several random and forgettable names on
| the packaging and exactly two (also unmemorable)
| manufacturers so far.
|
| Pairing is a little weird: It seems to broadly involve a
| pocket supercomputer with Alexa or Google Home or Home
| Assistant or whatever, and scanning a QR code.
|
| This QR _apparently_ begins Bluetooth handshake between
| the light bulb and the pocket computer, wherein things
| like WiFi information seem to be exchanged.
|
| After that, Matter devices (in my application at least)
| just live on WiFi.
|
| This all happens without needing weird(er) apps, overseas
| clown accounts, or manufacturer-specific hardware. It is
| local. (Well, Home Assistant is local. The others...are
| whatever hybrids they are.)
|
| And multiple local control systems (like the three I've
| already mentioned) can each monitor and control each
| Matter devices directly. There's probably a limit, but
| it's nice to have these things non-interactively
| interacting. ;)
|
| And they seem to be working fine. Boring, even. Right now
| I just have all of my IoT stuff on the same VLAN/SSID as
| everything else because it is easy, but I have 100%
| confidence that these Matter devices would continue to
| boringly Just Work if I were to isolate them to their own
| VLAN with zero WAN access.
|
| (Maybe that's something I will work on when setting
| everything up again after the next move.)
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| > There really is no reason why a phone couldn't, for
| example, have a home management app on it that manages all
| the IOT devices over bluetooth or other protocols directly
| rather than needing an internet connection.
|
| >> This exists, it's "Matter"
|
| Sadly, I am not sure Matter will solve the problem. Not
| because it _cannot solve_ it, but because what I see in the
| industry manufacturers _will not_ solve it.
|
| I have tried several (e.g., Aqara, Google, GE) Matter
| products that supposed to "just work", but they did not.
| Every one of the devices I tried failed or made it
| extremely onerous to function with non-native hubs.
|
| At 3.5% profit margin for the hardware, there is little
| incentive to truly interoperate. The money is in
| subscriptions, locking the user into an ecosystem that
| makes them dependent for the life of the product.
|
| (Caveat emptor - I am an old crotchety, jaded grouch.)
| bsder wrote:
| > I really wish that what we got instead of "Hey, your device
| can connect to smart-things.com and do stuff, ain't that
| need!" we had "Hey, this device speaks Protocol 1.2.3 over
| bluetooth which you can import to smart-things.com or other
| services".
|
| The problem is that end users _suuuuuuuck_.
|
| Oh, by the way iOS and Android do everything in the universe
| to make using Bluetooth absolutely miserable. Which Android
| or iOS version are you running? Which buggy Bluetooth stack
| did Samsung saddle you with? Oh, we retired that version of
| the app 18 months ago, please, for the love of God, update
| it. And, oh, you're using a shitty cracked Chinese version of
| the app <facepalm>.
|
| If I make the users connect to the "cloud", I can control the
| device, the backend talking to the device, and the front end
| talking to the user. I now know _exactly_ what the versions
| are, and the Chinese can 't pirate the app. The customer
| support is _orders of magnitude_ easier.
|
| From the perspective of the device developer, the "cloud" is
| simply a no-brainer on every single front.
|
| You, as a local-only user, simply won't pay anywhere near
| enough money to make supporting you worthwhile.
| commandar wrote:
| >I really wish that what we got instead of "Hey, your device
| can connect to smart-things.com and do stuff, ain't that
| need!" we had "Hey, this device speaks Protocol 1.2.3 over
| bluetooth which you can import to smart-things.com or other
| services".
|
| I made a conscious decision to build out absolutely
| everything HA-related that I could using Zigbee and Z-Wave
| devices. I intentionally avoided anything based on wifi and
| proprietary apps. It's basically what you're describing. I
| switched from SmartThings to Home Assistant about a year ago,
| and everything flipped over without any real drama.
|
| As others have said, Matter is another step in this direction
| with the end goal of making setup a little bit easier; it's
| still incredibly immature at the moment, though. But Z-Wave
| and Zigbee are both here now and work fine.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I'm currently doing home assistant + zigbee/zwave as well
| for everything. The main issue I have is it seems like the
| amount of those devices being released is fairly limited.
| It can be hard to find devices for some applications (like
| high current switches, for example).
|
| Be that as it may, the issue is also that you can't take
| your phone and hook up directly to these devices which is
| the bigger issue for wider adoption, IMO. It's fine for
| someone like me that has a home server laying around where
| I can plop in HA. But what about the average consumer who's
| only device is probably their phone and maybe a smart
| speaker?
|
| That's more the problem I was talking about that needs
| addressing.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I just bought a bunch of Shelly wall switches and US outlets.
| They are very affordable and use an open source OS on what I
| think is an ESP32 enabling Bluetooth and WiFi. They have an IoT
| cloud thing paired with their app BUT you can disable their
| cloud or use your own cloud URL, enable RPC over http or UDP
| and write your own code, use MQTT, local web server in the
| switch, etc. The outlets are just relays though they measure
| load current and voltage. Bonus is they do not need to be
| commissioned through an app - you can do everything over a
| browser or http calls via curl so you can use whatever OS and
| even script it.
|
| My only gripe is the wall switches do not have any ability to
| accommodate retrofitting a 3/4-way setup which is quite common
| for stairwell and hallway lighting.
|
| Edit: here's the dimmer API for reference https://shelly-api-
| docs.shelly.cloud/gen2/Devices/Gen2/Shell...
| AyyEye wrote:
| If you want to cloud delete you may be able to install valetudo
| on your roborock. You still get a local control via webpage or
| the (foss) app.
|
| https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/supported-robots.html
| darknavi wrote:
| Valetudo has been awesome on my Roborock S5s. It does
| occasionally hang up so I have some reboot cludge scripts,
| but in general its pretty solid. And way more than you can
| ask for from some random guy on the internet.
| thebasic wrote:
| Agreed - can't tell you how many cloud connected devices I've
| had that completely stopped working. Like my Mellow Sous Vide.
| Most of my house now is Z-wave and Zigbee.
| Fauntleroy wrote:
| Given recent rulings by the US Supreme court, how much actual
| authority does the FTC have left?
| bluGill wrote:
| A fair amount. They are more limited to the letter of the law,
| but they already had a lot of authority.
| aatharuv wrote:
| This reminds me of when Sony disabled their officially supported
| OtherOS support (used to install Linux and other os's dual boot)
| with an update. Of course without the update, no access to the
| Sony Store, games that require the latest Sony PS3 stopped
| working, etc...
| Matheus28 wrote:
| They got sued in a class action lawsuit for that, which got
| dragged out for ~7 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
|
| And in the end users who had used that feature and lost it
| got... $10.07
| rgovostes wrote:
| Exactly what I thought of, too. Was the PS3 the first forced-
| downgrade?
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| We have been calling on laws to stop this practice for at least 2
| decades now. Early examples include the bricking of PS3 Linux
| support and HP printer modules. This situation needs to change
| especially with so many cloud connected IOT devices. The law
| really needs to not just be about functionality loss or bricking
| remotely but also components that work without the cloud that can
| work locally.
| stanski wrote:
| Hello, HP!
| toss1 wrote:
| The solution that would not require govt cost or enforcement is a
| legal change:
|
| A company introducing a product that requires a connection to
| their service _M UST_ maintain utility and features at the same
| or better for at least 7 years after the hardware product is last
| sold at a retail establishment (equal or expanded features and
| lower cost).
|
| At whatever time they reduce features or increase cost beyond a
| faster level of inflation, they are required to release all
| related current source code, comments, documentation, test
| suites, etc. required to make usable all product features, into
| the public domain.
|
| All parties are also fully permitted to use any measures to
| reverse engineer or otherwise hack the source code and firmware.
|
| Simple: You maintain it, it's yours as long as you want. You stop
| maintaining it, everyone else can do it for you.
|
| Let the bean counters trying to cut this months bottom line costs
| fight with the IP lawyers trying to hide everything forever.
| janalsncm wrote:
| I think this gets tricky if their source code uses other
| proprietary software that can't be open sourced. So in practice
| open sourcing would not be an option.
|
| I could also imagine a common situation where there was some
| complex integration with various third party like OpenAI where
| it wouldn't be that easy for users to handle themselves.
| toss1 wrote:
| For sure, there will be edge cases and such as you describe.
| That is no reason to not do it.
|
| 1) resolve them in favor of the customers/users. If it is
| required to use it, release it, and anyone is free to hack.
| If it integrates with some 3rdPty service, they'll pretty
| quickly update their TOS to prevent such risks to their
| codebase, so it won't be an option.
|
| 2) it'll encourage corporations selling products to use
| modular and local-first design. If the product works by
| itself, local-first, and using a software package delivered
| with the product, and they sell an _ADD-ON_ cloud-based
| service, they 'll have zero problems. They can discontinue
| the _ADD-ON_ cloud service at will, and people can still use
| the original product as sold.
| datadrivenangel wrote:
| The classic example is deep use of cloud services. If the
| whole thing is built on AWS services, you won't have a
| meaningful app to deploy. Or if they use proprietary assets
| from somewhere like unity.
| dev1ycan wrote:
| I'm scared for the next election, remember Ajit Pai in the FCC?
| If Lina Khan goes away the FTC will most likely get a corporate
| stooge and all the wins under her will be gone
| atum47 wrote:
| LG Smart TVs, for sure
| alphazard wrote:
| What we really need are a variety of certifications enforced by
| the FTC, not blanket regulation. Like you can put a sticker on
| your product, which would be illegal for non-complying products
| to have. One seal could be for Open Source, another for Cloud-
| Free, Firmware Rollbacks, Telemetry-Free, E2EE, 10 years of
| replacement parts, etc.
|
| It's clear just from this thread that different people care about
| different things. And I'd rather see a certification that never
| gets used, than a whole kind of product removed from the market
| because the FTC got it wrong, and now it doesn't make sense to
| produce it.
| ok_dad wrote:
| Good idea! Like a nutritional label for electronics. The FDA is
| very strict about nutritional labels, as they should be.
| bokchoi wrote:
| The recent Synology update removed Video Station and HEIC support
| from Photo Station. I'm annoyed that they can arbitrarily remove
| consumer focused functionality in an update like that. There has
| been quite a bit of grumbling in /r/synology about this.
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| Are they growing to crack down on Apple? Or are they the only
| ones allowed to make money by limiting software capabilities?
| avmich wrote:
| Judging by the URL, the full name of the article is "FTC pushed
| to crack down on companies that ruin hardware via software
| updates or annoying paywalls".
|
| Regarding annoying paywalls, it's ironic that the page says
| "Checking your browser before accessing this site.", "Please
| allow up to 5 seconds..." and then keeps showing the wait sign
| indefinitely.
|
| I guess Techdirt site could be a subject to FTC push?
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