[HN Gopher] Hallelujah, Leonard Cohen, and a Pulitzer Prize-winn...
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Hallelujah, Leonard Cohen, and a Pulitzer Prize-winning writer's
suicide
Author : Curiositry
Score : 155 points
Date : 2024-09-07 18:46 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (subtledigressions.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (subtledigressions.substack.com)
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| I don't remember when I first heard Hallelujah. But I do remember
| that I was mesmerised from the first verse.
| ycombinete wrote:
| I definitely first heard John Cale's version in Shrek.
|
| Until today I thought it was Rufus Wainright's version.
|
| But for some reason the version in the film itself is Cale's,
| and the version in the official soundtrack is Wainright's!
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| You may appreciate this (not my post, just amusing to me):
| https://world.hey.com/horses/a-rant-about-the-gaslighting-
| ba...
| woodruffw wrote:
| I think the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better
| than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at
| minimum :-)
|
| The observations about obscurity are good ones, however -- A
| Confederacy of Dunces is a _fantastic_ book, and it 's hard to
| say how many other fantastic works of music, literature, &c. are
| lost in closets and old laptop hard drives. But I think it's not
| as much about genius as the author seems to think: given that we
| don't actually know the denominator under "known great works to
| unknown great ones," it seems equally plausible to me that
| "genius" is not the rare or distinguishing thing we always treat
| it as.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Buckley's version is trash in my opinion. I've just listened to
| the official video on YourTube. I had to give up halfway
| through and switch to Leonard Cohen's version Live in London.
| Cohen sings it like it matters, like it's a matter of life and
| death. Moved me to tears.
|
| The gatekeepers have a lot to answer for.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q
| worik wrote:
| In matters of taste there is no right an wrong
|
| Only good an bad
| khazhoux wrote:
| I always say: there's no dumb questions, only questions
| asked by dumb people.
| StayTrue wrote:
| Seems like an extreme take. I think Buckley's version is
| sublime but love Cohen's too (which I've been privileged to
| enjoy live on a couple occasions).
| Lerc wrote:
| I think this is the 'It's either 5-stars or 1-star'
| principle in action. I feel given a different context they
| might say that both both renditions are good but one speaks
| to them on a more personal level.
|
| I'm guessing this comes about as a desire to be heard
| causing a magnification of the opinion rather than the
| force of the opinion. If you feel like nobody takes notice
| of your moderate opinion one might feel like a expressing
| stronger opinion in the same direction might increase the
| impact.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| I also just don't care for Buckley's cover, and it's not
| a "not quite as good as the other one" feeling but a "not
| good" impression, so I can see where GGP is coming from.
| Buckley needlessly draws out the song.
|
| I own both Cohen's track from Various Positions and
| Buckley's cover from Grace, which Google gave away for
| free to try to convince people to use its music store. I
| don't listen to the latter. Even if I didn't have the
| former, I still wouldn't listen to the latter. That's
| just how I feel about it, and I understand that other
| people feel differently.
| Quekid5 wrote:
| Your opinion is just that. An opinion. (I'll leave it at
| that)
| acchow wrote:
| I think it's a matter of taste. I just watched your link and
| it seems performative to me. I imagine a video from one of
| his earliest performances would have come off as authentic.
| But decades later, does he really even feel the same way as
| when he wrote it?
| slfnflctd wrote:
| As someone who has performed a number of songs (some of
| which I wrote) over several decades, and has played one
| cover song in particular at least several hundred times...
| every performance is unique.
|
| It is a different experience for the performer than for the
| audience. As an audience member, I get tired of any
| particular song _very_ quickly. As a performer, it often
| feels like a new challenge each time. One night I can
| struggle to feel anything at all and it 's like I'm phoning
| it in. The next afternoon I can come away from a
| spontaneous run-through of the same piece and feel like
| I've found new insights and played it better than ever
| before.
|
| That being said, while I recognize it's somewhat
| subjective, I vastly prefer Jeff Buckley's version of this
| song over all others. Maybe because I fell in love with
| that whole Grace album at a pivotal point in my life. If
| I'm going to pick a song I feel like Cohen fully owns, it's
| gotta be Everybody Knows.
| emmelaich wrote:
| One thing I really like about Buckley's version is that he
| says "But you don't really care for music, do you?" Not "do
| ya", which really jars with the rest of the song.
| stavros wrote:
| That's what Cohen does in that video as well, and I
| personally dislike it.
| kdtsh wrote:
| It's apples and oranges comparing a studio recording to a
| live performance.
|
| Anyway, I think this is a similar divide to the performances
| of 'Hurt' by Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash. People come to
| each with their own preconceptions and their own taste, and
| ultimately both tracks explore different ground and express
| different things through the same composition.
|
| It is all a matter of taste; for what it's worth, I think no
| one has to think something is good, but I have a lot of time
| for people whose sense of taste lets them explore the ground
| that the artist tries to take them to and understand the
| artist on their level, whether they think one particular
| performance is better or worse than another by some metric.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| I think even Trent Reznor said it was Johnny Cash's song
| now.
| duskwuff wrote:
| He did.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20171015203101/http://www.the
| nin...
| OskarS wrote:
| One of my favorite Cash songs is The Mercy Seat, I just
| think it's a masterpiece. And it's SO Johnny Cash
| (religion! crime! last line twist!) that I was stunned when
| I recently looked it up and realized he didn't write it,
| it's a cover of a Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds song. The Nick
| Cave version is... fine? I mean, it's good! But the Johnny
| Cash version is sublime, there's no comparison.
|
| Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear Johnny
| Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he's a legend
| who inspired you and who you worship, but also it has to be
| a bit of "oh shit, his version is going to be so much
| better than mine, isn't it? Well, I guess it's Johnny's
| song now. "
| keybored wrote:
| > Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear
| Johnny Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he's
| a legend who inspired you and who you worship, but also
| it has to be a bit of "oh shit, his version is going to
| be so much better than mine, isn't it? Well, I guess it's
| Johnny's song now. "
|
| Pff.
|
| Based on monthly listeners on Spotify Johnny Cash is
| bigger than both Nice Cave and Nine Inch Nails. So what
| kind of position do you put artists who are both less
| known and younger in when you cover their songs? Well
| factoring in respect and professionalism: deference is a
| likely outcome. "It's his song now!" Ridiculous.
|
| "Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails is fine I guess. "Hurt" by Cash
| is just an old man voice over a steel string guitar. Very
| monotone and dull. I heard it way before I heard the NiN
| version (naturally) and I never understood why people
| were taken by it.
|
| Another example is "My Body is a Cage" by Arcade Fire.
| Peter Gabriel did a similarly boring cover: flat vocals
| (compare with the AF vocals reaching for the higher
| notes) over a dun-dun-dun piano which builds into a
| orchestral backing. I guess the instrumentation is
| comparable but the vocals are just okay. But the vocals
| are supposedly the wow-factor for such artists.
|
| But AF has done at least one Peter Gabriel cover. So it
| goes both ways.
| atombender wrote:
| To me, cover songs often fall flat because it sounds like
| the cover artist is just reading someone else's lines as
| opposed to having a distinct voice.
|
| For me, Cale's version sounds "lived in", if you will. He's
| taken the words and made them _his_. There 's bitterness,
| hurt, humour, and real meaning imbued in each line. It's
| not elegant, it's a bit rough and raw. I think Cale is an
| underrated vocalist.
|
| Other cover versions like Buckley's sound technically very
| proficient but slick and emotionally hollow.
| ndepoel wrote:
| The thing about Nine Inch Nails version of 'Hurt' is that
| it works best within the context of the album 'The Downward
| Spiral'. As a song by itself it's fine, but it doesn't
| really hit home unless you've been through the entire
| journey that the album takes you on. It segues right from
| the album's title track and maintains the noisy crackling
| from that song, making it feel incredibly fragile. It's a
| great way to cap off a very personal and self-reflective
| album, but take it out of that context and it's just, eh,
| pretty good I guess.
|
| Johnny Cash's version takes the song and puts it into a new
| context, specifically as a reflection on Cash's own life
| and career. It hits very differently that way, and I think
| it's easier for people to relate to. Both versions are
| excellent in their own way, and I am grateful to Johnny
| Cash for bringing this song into the public consciousness.
| rendx wrote:
| I like Daniel Kahn's version.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504
| woodruffw wrote:
| `s yz a gvt lyd :-)
| shagie wrote:
| At one point in my music library, I not-quite-dated a woman
| who's fond of the song ... and I picked up a few versions of it
| in my music library. There was also a version playing on KFOG
| at the time.
|
| One of the things that interesting to me about them is that
| John Cale did a cover of the Cohen song ... and then everyone
| else covers Cale's version.
|
| I think that Rufus Wainright's version is the closest to Cale's
| and The Rubes have a version that is more piano.
|
| In a quick scan through iTunes, I haven't found any (yet) that
| use Cohen's lyrical arrangement rather than Cale's selection.
|
| (edit) Matthew Schuler appears to be a proper Cohen cover
| (complete with the female backup voices on the Hallelujah
| choruses over organ). It has the "Lord of Song" verse, but it
| didn't have the "holy or the broken Hallelujah" verse.
|
| The Canadian Tenors also have a composition that appears to
| draw from the Cohen rather than the Cale arrangement.
|
| Tori Kelly's cover has all the verses that I recognize from
| Cohen's version.
| atombender wrote:
| This is a major point made by the article. Cohen needed Cale
| to be his "editor", someone that could beat it into shape.
| Without Cale's "editing", we probably would not have all the
| covers today. The article then contrasts this process to what
| happens an author is unlucky and is faced with an editor who
| stands in the way of the author's vision rather than becoming
| a catalyst for it.
| klabetron wrote:
| What was it about Cale's version that Jeff Buckley latched
| on to that he wouldn't have had he come across Cohen's
| version while cat sitting for a friend? Do we know? I don't
| think the author explains (if there even is an
| explanation).
|
| But really great read nonetheless.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Search for "MALCOLM GLADWELL Revisionist History
| Hallelujah". He does a whole show on the topic, and
| covers the major different versions.
| shagie wrote:
| https://www.cbc.ca/music/read/how-john-cale-recorded-the-
| def... has more background on the editor process that Cale
| did.
|
| > Shortly after Shrek's success, Cale ran into Cohen at a
| Starbucks in Hollywood, where the two had consequently
| relocated. "I said, 'Well, I guess we did a good thing
| there,'" Cale recalls of the meeting. "I asked him, 'How
| many versions of 'Hallelujah' are there? How many can there
| be?' He said, 'Well, it's all your fault, you know.' And I
| said, 'Oh no, everybody's found something great in it
| because every verse has a different aspect of somebody's
| character.' I then told him I couldn't sing some of them
| because they were too religious for me, and he said, 'Yeah,
| you take what you find useful.'"
|
| I will suggest listening to the Matthew Schuler cover -
| https://youtu.be/r6KrhD8Ts7c and see how it was inspired by
| Cohen's version rather than Cale's version (and Schuler's
| background as a church choir singer is there rather than a
| singer songwriter background).
| paul7986 wrote:
| Best version I personally ever heard is K.D. LANG's on an
| Australian tv show. She soars at the end.
|
| https://youtu.be/ikdLBQACC74?si=C2NJaQ1r7vUoKpOJ
|
| Think her versions were Cohen's favorite.
| edanm wrote:
| My favorite version is 3Blue1Brown's math parody version:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg :)
|
| Seriously though, I'm actually a huge Buckley fan and prefer
| his version to Leonard Cohen's, though I'm also a big Leonard
| Cohen fan.
| stavros wrote:
| Why do people mention Confederacy of Dunces here? I'm not sure
| how it relates to the song.
| jessekv wrote:
| The article uses both the song and the book to support a
| broader observation about the path of art from obscurity into
| popular culture.
| napoleoncomplex wrote:
| Half of the linked article is about the story behind
| Confederacy of Dunces.
| jebarker wrote:
| > the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than
| Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at
| minimum :-)
|
| It is controversial, but shouldn't be. Not because Buckley's
| version _is_ better, but because arguing over whose taste in
| music is better is obnoxious.
| ptsneves wrote:
| This article reminds me of "the last days of roger federer"
| kayo_20211030 wrote:
| Seems a little unfair on Yetnikoff and Gottlieb. There are
| potentially a whole heap of songs and books that are
| _potentially_ better than both Hallelujah and A Confederacy of
| Dunces; but they are undiscovered, and most will remain that way.
| It seems unfair that the author of the piece, with super-duper
| hindsight and a firm hand on the survivor bias handle, picks two
| survivors and then ridicules the editor and reviewer who didn't
| see precisely what everybody else didn't see either. Seems a bit
| of a cheap shot.
| worik wrote:
| I agree
|
| It is good that the barriers erected by record co panties and
| publishers have come down.
|
| But what now? Will we get more than Taylor Swift (bless her)?
|
| The Era of a few "stars" and legions of impoverished artists is
| hard to shake.
| noizejoy wrote:
| > The Era
|
| I see what you did there :-)
|
| > a few "stars" and legions of impoverished artists is hard
| to shake.
|
| Arguably "winner takes all" economies are a very common end-
| point in many disciplines - not just music / the arts.
| worik wrote:
| > Arguably "winner takes all" economies are a very common
| end-point
|
| Hopefully a waystation not an endpoint
| atombender wrote:
| That's not what I understood the author's point to be. Rather,
| they suggest that genius isn't enough; a large part is luck,
| timing, having the right mentors and chanpions -- and in these
| two cases, the works became successful in spite of everything.
| As they point out in the last paragraphs, many works of genius
| are probably lost because the stars don't align.
| kstenerud wrote:
| I'm dealing with this right now. My wife was killed by a
| Russian tank in January while rescuing two wounded soldiers,
| and she left behind a whole trove of her writings. I've
| compiled everything into a book, and everyone who takes the
| time to read it agrees that what she wrote is amazing,
| moving, heartbreaking - but I cannot for love nor money get
| the damn thing published.
|
| Here's an example:
|
| === May 26, 2023 20:33
|
| I worked in Dnipro last year in October and November as first
| responder for missile strikes (kamikaze drones weren't a big
| issue yet in Dnipro at that time, missiles were the main
| threat), and therefore any news and pictures of an attack
| there feel very personal to me. They're not just another
| headline about another strike to me, but bring back memories
| from the strikes that I responded to myself and the
| experiences I made.
|
| Coming from these experiences, let me remind you, or make you
| aware, that these attacks cause much more harm than what you
| see on the news pictures or that the numbers show of how many
| people died or are hospitalized or how many buildings got
| destroyed.
|
| For example, last year I rescued ('found cowering on the
| ground' would be more fitting in this case actually) a young
| woman who was close-ish to a half collapsed and burning gas
| station that was hit by a missile. She had a wound from a
| piece of shrapnel on her hand, that was all. It wasn't
| serious, no bones, nerves, ligaments etc. were damaged, a
| case for a bandage as first aid and later a few stitches in
| the hospital. She didn't even have a serious concussion as
| far as I could tell on the spot, apparently, luckily, she was
| still far enough away from the impact for it to cause her any
| serious physical damage. But she was severely in shock, I
| mean psychological shock. She looked at me like... I don't
| even know how to describe this but I'll never forget this
| look in her eyes... like in complete disbelief of what just
| happened or confusion about what happened, mixed with deep
| sadness, mixed with fear for her life. Something like this.
| She was traumatized, and the same applied to everybody who
| was there when it happened, no matter whether or not they had
| physical injuries.
|
| Another time we were searching a damaged building right next
| to a partially destroyed building (from a missile strike). It
| was basically still intact, 'only' blown out windows and
| smaller damage like that from the shockwave and from shrapnel
| /secondary shrapnel flying around, but no collapsed walls or
| other visible damage that would affect the building's
| structural integrity. "Searching" in this case means we had
| to check on every single person living there if they need
| medical help, and/or enter every single apartment, if
| necessary by force, to see if anybody is there who needs
| assistance. Everybody in this building was 'fine', there were
| no dead, no injured (beyond a few scratches or minor cuts
| from window glass), no unattended frightened children or
| elderly, nobody who would've needed our help, aside from a
| bandaid or a piece of candy (for the kids) here and there.
| These people wouldn't show up in any statistics that you see
| on the news, they're the 'lucky' ones, but if you talk to
| them in person there's no doubt that they're also direct
| victims of this missile strike. - If you talk to people later
| who have experienced something like this, they'll tell you
| that their children are deadly afraid of all kinds of banging
| sounds and of the air raid alert sirens, they run to the
| hallway (if you don't have a basement, or one that can't be
| reached quickly, that's where you would go, away from the
| windows and outer parts of the building but some windowless
| hallway deeper inside preferably in a doorframe) if they
| sense the slightest sign of danger, or what they interpret as
| danger. Everybody gets paranoid of the sky, and people don't
| feel safe in their own homes, their own beds, anymore.
|
| Then there are of course the people who lose their homes
| because of these strikes, some of them might be unharmed
| themselves if they weren't home, but they've lost everything.
|
| And that's only the people who are directly affected. Then
| you have all the secondary damage (or tertiary, or where are
| we now..) that comes from destroyed infrastructure. A strike
| might have been relatively far away from you, but you can't
| get to work anymore because your train can't drive (destroyed
| railroads), you don't have warm water to bathe your baby
| because the water boiler doesn't work without electricity
| (destroyed power stations, or lines), or you have no water at
| all anymore (destroyed water facilities, or pipes), or your
| grampa has a heart attack but it takes an eternity for the
| ambulance to arrive (destroyed hospitals or ambulances), or
| you can't go to work because nobody can take care of your
| kids anymore (destroyed kindergartens), and so on.
|
| And on top you have a whole neighborhood, city, a whole
| country, who, even if they've never been near any missile
| strikes and aren't affected at all (yet), who live in
| constant fear that the next missile could have their name on
| it, or their family's or friend's. And the people who are
| grieving because they've lost somebody in a missile strike.
| And the loss of buildings and cities that have a decades or
| centuries old history and have become part of the culture of
| a district or region. The list is endless, but you get the
| idea.
|
| Russia has launched _thousands_ of missiles on Ukraine since
| Feb 2022, the vast majority of them targeted at civilians.
| This air strike terror that Ukraine is going through - and it
| really is a form of terrorism, it meets all the defining
| characteristics - has effects far beyond the immediate
| casualties from the actual missile strikes, that you can't
| even imagine.
|
| Even for me it felt 'special', in a bad way, when a missile
| hit very close to my building while I was standing on the
| balcony having a smoke, last year in October in Dnipro. And I
| had just come back from months of daily bombardments with
| almost everything, short of missiles, that the Russian
| military has to offer, so at that point I was pretty much as
| used to this experience as anybody can possibly get. But
| there's a difference between daily life airstrikes in the
| context of frontline work, where you don't expect anything
| else, and getting hit by a missile in a big city far away
| from the front that suddenly out of the blue, literally out
| of the blue, disrupts your normal life. At the front you
| never feel safe by default, but in the middle of Dnipro going
| to the gas station, or having a smoke, you don't expect this.
| Even right now in Ukraine you don't, because your brain
| protects you from constantly being afraid as good as it can.
| Even I was in shock there for a moment before I grabbed my
| medic bag and gear (rescuers here wear body armor because
| Russians like to hit the same spot twice exactly to get the
| rescuers too) to go downstairs and help, and i can only
| imagine how much worse it must be for people who are
| completely unprepared for this.
|
| This airstrike terror is a_ huge_ part of this war, that
| Westerners aren't really aware of in this form. If you
| compare the numbers of soldiers dying in Bakhmut alone, let
| alone the whole frontline, versus civilians who died from
| missile strikes, or kamikaze drones, it looks like it's a
| minor issue, in the bigger picture. But it isn't, because
| it's not just about the dead and injured.
|
| Those of you who have grandparents who experienced some kind
| of bombardment during WW2 might now, that some of them are
| still not over it after decades, after decades of living in a
| safe place in a peaceful country. My grandmother had a friend
| who made this experience _once_, for _one_ day, as a kid, and
| as an 80 something year old woman looked like a frightened
| little girl stuck in the past when she told me about it.
| That's how deep the wounds can be that people suffer from
| being victim of this kind of terror. And Ukraine is
| experiencing this for over a _year_ now, with no end in
| sight. I know it's not the exact same kind of thing, but the
| effects on people are similar.
|
| I really hope that the generational trauma that this will
| cause can be turned into something good eventually and will
| make Ukrainians stronger in the end. But that might be naive,
| honestly... I hope it's not.
| spectralglitch wrote:
| Thank you for sharing this, I wish you best of luck in your
| journey to get it published.
| Vecr wrote:
| Maybe be careful how much you post, there's been problems
| with people trying to professionally publish something
| they've posted on Internet forums before (Internet/Web
| fiction).
| geoka9 wrote:
| So sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing this.
| klabetron wrote:
| <3 to you, her, her work on the front line, and her
| writing.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| How much money do you need to get it published?
|
| I'm sure a forum full of top <1% income earners worldwide
| could figure out how to help
| indigodaddy wrote:
| This was really fresh and fantastic when I read it in the
| 2000s. Wild ride-- some of its style definitely reminded me of
| Confederacy.
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/248529.Lord_of_the_Barny...
| worik wrote:
| Odd to hear Leonard described as a late bloomer
|
| True he did not make records until his thirties, but Songs From a
| Room was a huge influence on me, in the 1970s
|
| Leonard was a huge star in many parts of the world then
| bazoom42 wrote:
| He was quite popular in Europe. "Various Positions" (the album
| containing Hallelujah) was a top 10 hit in several countries
| but wasn't even released in the US.
|
| Cohen was once asked why he was so much more popular in Europe
| than North America. He said it was probably because they didn't
| understand the lyrics.
| paul7986 wrote:
| Songwriting could be labeled a weird phenomenon like why do
| people suddenly have/hear melodies and lyrics pop in their head
| (myself since a teen). Where does it come from as I often
| wondered.
|
| Though songwriters write differently a lot write as noted above
| like Dylan, Dolly Parton and countless others (it just comes to
| them). While others like Cohen work on their songs .. maybe write
| a poem and then add music to it.. it's not all heard at once in
| their head. Elton John writes music to Taupin's lyrics. I have
| tried that before but the lazy boom hear it in my head and sing
| in Voice memos to remember it later i prefer. Im definetly none
| of those people mentioned above but songwriting is something i
| enjoy immensely.
| taylorius wrote:
| I daresay I'm in a minority of one, but I cannot abide Leonard
| Cohen's Hallelujah. In my opinion one of the most overrated songs
| in all of popular music.
| noizejoy wrote:
| > In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of
| popular music.
|
| What is the other metric you're implying?
|
| Because "popular" is the only metric in your statement and if
| that's also the metric you imply with "overrated", then the
| statement doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| generally that song is rated on lyrical quality, so that's
| what I would expect.
| taylorius wrote:
| I wasn't using the word popular as a metric - "popular music"
| is a fairly standard term, and is used as a category
| designator, to refer to music created by modern songwriters
| and/or bands, as opposed to say, classical music.
|
| I must say I find it slightly hard to believe that this isn't
| obvious - but I hope this explanation clarifies things.
| evanjrowley wrote:
| You're not alone. The lyrics tell a tale of hedonism, but
| because of the pretty melody and religious imagery, people
| somehow think it's uplifting? It's blasphemous and cursed
| according to the ideal that many mistakenly attribute the song
| to.
|
| I'm not saying people can't enjoy media that uses religious
| influences in ways contrary to their original purpose. My point
| is that a line gets crossed when the intent is to create
| something that's not respectful and people somehow misinterpret
| it as an endorsement.
| gjm11 wrote:
| Maybe I'm overoptimistic about people's intelligence, but my
| impression is that no one in the history of ever has thought
| the song is _uplifting_. There 's a reason why it's been used
| so often in television and film to accompany heartbreak and
| tragedy and the like.
|
| (I don't really see "a tale of hedonism" in it, either. I
| mean, it has _sex_ in it, for sure, but that 's not the same
| thing. It's a song of damaged and broken relationships, not
| of consequence-free one-night stands.)
|
| [EDITED to add:] That last sentence is an oversimplification.
| There are lots of versions of the song, even if you consider
| only Cohen's own ones, with different balances between the
| religious and the sexual/romantic elements; the original 1984
| version isn't "a song of damaged and broken relationships",
| or at least not only that. You could even, kinda-sorta, call
| it "uplifting". Later versions, Cohen's and others, not so
| much.
|
| But none of them, so far as I know, is a "tale of hedonism"
| in any useful sense.
| smsm42 wrote:
| It is certainly not fun and happy song, but I would go as
| far as claim it is ultimately uplifting. After all it says
| "I'll stand before the lord of song with nothing on my
| tongue but hallelujah" - past all the suffering and
| brokenness the author is ultimately thankful for his lot.
| And in many philosophical traditions, including the Judaic
| one, the happy man is one who is satisfied with his lot.
| woodruffw wrote:
| What in the song is blasphemous?
|
| (I suppose the name of the song itself is _literally_
| blasphemous, but I don 't think this is what you meant?)
| smsm42 wrote:
| I don't see how it tells "a tale of hedonism", especially if
| you know which parts of the Bible it refers to. There's a lot
| of sex, lust, love, heroism and betrayal there, but
| "hedonism" would not be among words I'd ever use for it,
| neither it seems to be any in describing Cohen's view of love
| as "cold and broken Hallelujah". You are free to read the
| text as you wish, of course, but I'd suggest you might be
| missing some things there.
|
| > My point is that a line gets crossed when the intent is to
| create something that's not respectful and people somehow
| misinterpret it as an endorsement.
|
| Not sure what you mean. That Cohen was disrespectful to the
| biblical sources? The man doesn't use so much of that kind of
| symbolism in his songs if he doesn't feel a deep connection
| to it, and Cohen uses a lot of it, consistently. And, I
| think, he already answers this question in the song itself -
| what's "the line"? Where does it come from?
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Note Jewish myself, but I've seen rabbis complain about
| people coopting the song as a Christian religious song of
| praise given its origin, but never complaining about the song
| itself, either because it "blasphemous" or anything else.
|
| What is your basis for calling it blasphemous?
| jonstewart wrote:
| I hate it, too, find it embarrassingly maudlin, and am willing
| to extend the overrated label to Leonard Cohen. I like most
| every successor artist he's influenced, but just because he was
| among the first black humored singer-songwriters doesn't make
| him the most talented.
| klibertp wrote:
| > singer-songwriters doesn't make him the most talented.
|
| He's a poet. And a writer. He never claimed to be a singer,
| and songwriting always was a side job that earned money. If
| you want to know how talented Cohen was, read instead of
| trying to listen.
| wisemang wrote:
| He was born like that. He had no choice. He was born with
| the gift of a golden voice.
|
| (Reference to his Tower of Song -- and I can hear the wink
| as he calls his voice golden.)
| geertj wrote:
| Last month a guitarist named James Hargreaves posted a YouTube
| video [1] proposing a fascinating theory about the hidden chord
| that Cohen refers to in the first verse of Hallelujah ("Now I've
| heard there was a secret chord That David played, and it pleased
| the Lord").
|
| In the video, Hargreaves makes the case that the hidden chord is
| the third chord. It would be unplayable on an instrument tuned at
| the time of King David, and it is the chord that Cohen plays in
| the chord progression in the first verse under the word
| 'composing.' He then links this up with the 'third cord' (no h)
| from Ecclesiastes which indicates God blessing a marriage by
| being the third person in the marriage. This then explains the
| reference "But you don't really care for music, do you?" and the
| second verse which talks about King David and his affair with
| Bathsheba. Hargreaves then goes even further and suggests Cohen
| might have had an affair like King David and wrote this song to
| claim it was true love and blessed by God, as the third cord.
|
| Not sure how real this all is. But given that Cohen took years to
| write the song it would be quite likely there is a deeper
| meaning.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/mp9hYxw-Q6I?si=OUB8W5m5dSckBOG2
| fsckboy wrote:
| i just finished watching it when I saw your comment, came here
| to post about it, you're right, it's a fascinating video
| twelvechairs wrote:
| Cohen has said in interviews he mashes imagery together and
| picks things that sound right. I'm sure some of the individual
| references are very true but not sure about any grand narrative
| explanations where all the lines and verses tie together in
| some exact neat way like this.
| qsdf38100 wrote:
| Yeah, maybe, who knows. Of course, you should be aware that if
| you search for a pattern long enough, you'll find one.
|
| Now, in this first verse are interesting lyrics that are
| referring to the chords being played, which I think are not
| hidden but you have to know a bit of music theory. English is
| not my first language so it might be a bit broken, but bear
| with me :)
|
| "The forth, the fifth" refer to the degrees of the chords being
| played at this moment. In C major, the 1st degree is the C
| major chord, the 4th is F major, 5th is G major. This is a very
| common progression, and usually it ends up in a 5th -> 1st
| cadence, which would be F major, G major and C major here. But
| you can also, instead of the expected 1th, go to the 6th, which
| is a A minor chord here. This is known as a minor fall, I
| assume, which is exactly the lyrics at that moment. But then,
| the lyrics mention a "major lift", which is also what happens
| when it goes through the same progression, 4th, 5th, but then
| the 3rd (E major) with one note lifted (the G#) making the
| chord major, and resolving to A in a true cadence, because E
| major -> A minor is a 5th -> 1st for the A minor scale.
|
| To summarize, the chord progression is faking a IV V I cadence,
| but falling to VI (A minor), then faking a IV V I cadence
| again, but lifting to a "majorified" III (E major) which become
| V I cadence in the A scale, allowing us to resolve on A instead
| of "falling" on A like the first time. So we went from the C
| major scale to the A minor scale, which are also the first two
| chords of the song, repeated many times.
|
| So, this whole "the 4th, the 5th, the minor fall and the major
| lift, the baffled king composing hallelujah" is nicely
| describing the chord progression underneath, while being
| poetic, and I just love it. So I had to share, sorry if it was
| obvious to you already. Cheers.
| geertj wrote:
| > sorry if it was obvious to you already
|
| It was definitely not obvious to me! What do you make of the
| third chord under 'composing' that would not be playable in a
| diatonic (?) scale that was used at the time of King David,
| as the video claims?
| qsdf38100 wrote:
| I've not seen the video, but that chord is just a usual
| major chord, that is, a chord with 3 notes: a fundamental,
| a major third and a fifth.
|
| It's a very common chord, we could say it's a "natural"
| chord because when a string vibrates, its first harmonics
| make this chord. I'm not sure why it would be a secret
| chord, or why you couldn't get one from a diatonic scale.
| Now, it's true that, assuming your instrument is "stuck" in
| the C major scale, you won't have a G# note, which is
| needed for this E major chord. Whether or not they could
| play such a chord progression at the time of King David
| doesn't feel relevant to me, in the context of the rest of
| the song. I would be surprised if this is what Cohen was
| getting at by "secret chord". I don't think "secret chord"
| means a chord in particular in the song. If I had to guess,
| I would rather think it could be a metaphor of the search
| for perfection in composition, and this song would be a
| "tribute" to perfection, but not perfection itself. Just
| like Tenacious D "tribute" song :)
| Cushman wrote:
| > This is known as a minor fall, I assume
|
| Since turnabout is fair play, it's worth noting this is
| mostly false; if you google "minor fall music theory" you'll
| only find references to Cohen.
|
| In (conventional western) analysis, a "fall" wouldn't be
| something mechanical, it would always imply a contextual
| interpretation.
|
| So it's a valid reading of the text to say it means something
| about the chord structure, but -- from a purely musical
| theoretical perspective -- just as valid to read it as a
| reference to the flattening of the minor degree of the scale,
| or something else entirely.
|
| It's really a lovely song :)
| qsdf38100 wrote:
| I assumed wrong :) The correct term is a deceptive cadence.
| According to Britannica.com "It begins with V, like an
| authentic cadence, except that it does not end on the
| tonic. Often the triad built on the sixth degree (VI, the
| submediant) substitutes for the tonic, with which it shares
| two of its three pitches."
|
| Still, I think that by "the 4th, the 5th, the minor fall"
| Cohen is likely referring to this IV V VI progression with
| the deceptive "minor fall" cadence, and the major lift is
| likely referring to the subsequent IV V III(V) VI(I)
| progression, (degrees in the A scale are in parenthesis)
| where the III(V) is "majorified" (it should be a E minor in
| the C major scale) with this "lifted" G# note. This note is
| also what makes the scale shift from C major to A minor.
|
| Anyway, I could be seeing something that Cohen didn't
| intend, but as someone who has had a lot of fun composing
| lots of songs, I'd said that's quite likely he really was
| collating composing terms describing the underneath
| progression with grand spiritual feelings, which is what
| this verse is about: the divine behind music and composing,
| and maybe more generally creativity and inspiration.
|
| A lovely song indeed :)
| LeonB wrote:
| I didn't want to comment until I'd seen the video -- I've seen
| it now and I think it's really interesting, and brings in a lot
| of relevant points.
|
| Personally, I would be quite adamant that the reason the word
| "chord" is chosen there -- is for a much simpler reason: it
| rhymes perfectly with "Lord". (At first I wrote, a more
| "prosaic reason" -- then realised that while it is a simple
| reason it is the opposite of "prosaic" - it is literally
| "poetic").
|
| But the nature of this video -- searching for meaning within a
| work of art - I think this is a great way to engage with art,
| and a special kind of joy all its own. Such interpretations are
| meaningful and can be "true" regardless of whether the author
| literally meant it the way you take it.
|
| If a physics paper interpreted results of an experiment in this
| way, or if a jury interpreted evidence in this way, I don't
| think it would be good science or justice, as the case may be.
| But for enjoying and experiencing art in a "meaningful" way,
| this kind of approach is well worth it.
| i4i wrote:
| Immediately after the book won the Pulitzer in 1981, Gottlieb
| could not recall Toole or the manuscript. In his 2016 memoir,
| Gottlieb wrote that, after returning to A Confederacy of Dunces
| decades later, he felt the same about its flaws.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gottlieb
| geenkeuse wrote:
| This song is perfection. It transcended the medium and became
| something else entirely. Well and truly, a masterpiece.
| niccl wrote:
| One of the local music venue owners used to be tour manager for
| Leonard Cohen. When Cohen died, this guy organised a tribute
| concert with a whole bunch of local talent.
|
| The guy that did Hallelujah is a fantastic rock guitarist and,
| recognising that the world was Halellujah'd out, did a rock
| version, more along the lines of Hendrix' Star Spangled Banner
| than anything I'd ever heard before. It was _awesome_ (literally
| awe inspiring).He was so into it he had no recollection later of
| what he'd done or how he'd performed, but to the audience it had
| as much power and feeling as the 'real thing'.
|
| Sadly, there's no recording of it in any form. I've asked him a
| few times if he could do it again so it could be recorded, but he
| says he doesn't even want to try because it was just of the
| moment and he didn't think he could do it again
| bsder wrote:
| A caution to those who are going to go grab "Confederacy of
| Dunces".
|
| It is the equivalent of the "trainwreck reality TV" a la "Jersey
| Shore" but written significantly _before_ that was a "genre". If
| you like that kind of humor, you will like the book. If you do
| not like that kind of humor, you will find the book quite the
| slog.
|
| The "trainwreck reality TV" aspect is, in my opinion, why the
| book had such difficulty gaining traction with the literati.
| sevensor wrote:
| The first time I read it, I disliked it. I read it again twelve
| years later and I hated it. Ignatius is an unpleasant person
| and I don't enjoy reading about his misadventures. This is
| probably because I'm a philistine.
| ultimoo wrote:
| > it. Listen to Leonard Cohen's version, John Cale's version,
| Rufus Wainwright's version, and Jeff Buckley's version. Each
| version is as beautiful as the other, although Buckley's version
| transcends them all
|
| No. Cohen's is better.
| neom wrote:
| Quite literally got into an argument with someone about this
| last night. I said it's his best and worst song, best because
| it's great, worst because anyone else dare sing it.
| petesergeant wrote:
| I wonder if it depends which version you heard first. I'm a
| Cohen fan but find his version dull, where the Buckley version
| is sublime
| d13 wrote:
| This is why music is completely subjective. What some hear as
| "sublime" others hear as "overcooked". It's all fine though,
| this is all part of what gives life richness and texture.
| wslh wrote:
| There's a key aspect of Cohen's success that stands out: his
| resilience to rise after a fall. After being defrauded by his
| longtime manager, Kelley Lynch, and nearly going bankrupt at 70,
| Cohen embarked on an extensive world tour from 2008 to 2013 to
| recover financially.
|
| As a fan of Leonard Cohen's music, Hallelujah ranks lower on my
| playlist compared to other songs like those from I'm Your Man,
| Recent Songs, and New Skin for the Old Ceremony."
| digbybk wrote:
| I think the Future is a massively under appreciated album.
| jonstewart wrote:
| As a Gen Xer, I've consigned both Hallelujah and A Confederacy of
| Dunes to the "maudlin Boomer works" dustbin in my mind. Cale's
| version is the best, but I far prefer Paris 1919.
| __alexander wrote:
| I don't have an opinion about whether Cohen or Jeff Buckley
| version is better, they are equally beautiful. For anyone new to
| Jeff Buckley check out his live stuff at cafe sin-e. The first
| time I heard "Be Your Husband" I got goose-bumps. That guy had
| some amazing talent.
| taxicabjesus wrote:
| My introduction to _Hallelujah_ was via Malcolm Gladwell 's
| podcast. A good portion of Season 1, Episode 7 (2016) was
| dedicated to the evolution of Leonard Cohen's song from
| 'forgotten B-side track' to the song that is commonly known and
| covered today.
|
| https://youtu.be/4OKQTl09vCk?t=1180 (link to 19:30)
| https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/halleluj...
|
| The author of this submission mentions this podcast:
|
| > On his podcast, Revisionist History, Malcolm Gladwell presents
| his theory on two types of artists: conceptual innovators and
| experimental innovators. Conceptual innovators create their best
| work early on in their careers.
|
| Both this submission and Gladwell's podcast are based on Alan
| Light's 2014 book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-
| Holy-or-the-Broke... /
| https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Broken_Hallelujah_Roc...
| assimpleaspossi wrote:
| I find it strange when I hear this song sung and played in church
| services and other religious events where, I believe, they think
| it's a religious song of praise or somesuch.
| edgyquant wrote:
| It is a religious song, full of biblical narratives and sung by
| a Jewish man. That it is more about his life and struggles with
| love than God doesn't change that and if anything makes it even
| more religious.
| droptablemain wrote:
| I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Cohen on his final U.S. tour. He
| crooned and gyrated on the stage for 3+ hours and over 30 tracks,
| including two encores, in his mid-70s at that point. He never
| lost it, even at the end.
| lipitic wrote:
| Me and my girfriend moved to Paris at the beginning of 2020, to a
| nice little apartment in the Le Marais district. The first Covid
| lockdown started a couple of months after we came and we were
| soon all trapped in our tiny spaces, with not much to do, and
| unable to fully enjoy our very first warm and gentle Paris
| spring.
|
| Our living room overlooked a closed courtyard and (if you were
| impolite enough!) you could see in all the neighbors apartments.
| One guy used to play a record of Buckley's Hallelujah every
| evening, just as the sun was about to set. Never missed a day,
| and I found it amusing, at times irritating, but now I remember
| it very fondly.
| throwaway45383 wrote:
| I watched a documentary about his life and his battles with the
| music industry, structured around Hallelujah. I recommend it. I
| felt like I got to know both the artist and the person.
|
| https://m.imdb.com/title/tt7600742/
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