[HN Gopher] Dance Choreography Notation (2017)
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       Dance Choreography Notation (2017)
        
       Author : mont_tag
       Score  : 97 points
       Date   : 2024-09-07 00:26 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (adafrobinson.wordpress.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (adafrobinson.wordpress.com)
        
       | Rygian wrote:
       | Link to baroquedance.com in the article is dead. This is what I
       | could find instead:
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20240907125001/https://www.baroq...
        
       | kaz-inc wrote:
       | Beautiful notation. I found the first especially interesting,
       | with the spatial mapping recorded in a kind of "parametric-
       | function on a 2d plane" view, like a camera on a slow exposure
       | looking at the entire dance from bird's eye view.
       | 
       | The later ones are reasonable, as they map more closely to the
       | music notation that has become standard, but for classical music
       | of different cultures, notes don't often lie on a single place,
       | but swing from one pitch to another, with blips and arcs in their
       | paths from one place to another.
       | 
       | The staff-based notations lose the first-hand flow of the
       | notation in space. I wonder what could be done with color.
        
         | bobvanluijt wrote:
         | Agreed, beautiful indeed
        
       | toolslive wrote:
       | There's also a notation for gymnastics (used by judges) An
       | introduction: http://www.nawgj-sc.org/wp-
       | content/uploads/2018/12/Gym-Short...
        
         | borlox wrote:
         | That's a bit more readable and reminds me of Aresti symbols as
         | used in aerobatics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresti_Catalog
        
           | Wistar wrote:
           | Ah, you beat me to it. Here is the current IAC catalog of
           | Aresti.
           | 
           | https://www.iac.org/aresti-catalogue-structure
        
       | bj-rn wrote:
       | made me think of https://motionbank.org
        
       | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
       | These choreography notation systems are very interesting from a
       | historical perspective, but their raison d'etre went away with
       | the advent of video.
       | 
       | Dance (or at least ballet) is still largely passed down by oral
       | tradition; dancers are coached by older generations who danced
       | these pieces when they were younger (obviously not for new
       | works). In fact, unlike in the music world, it's exceedingly rare
       | to find anyone in the dance world who can read or understand any
       | of these notation systems. They tend to be the purview of dance
       | historians or those specifically tasked with coaching copyrighted
       | works from dead choreographers. That is, even before video, they
       | weren't really in widespread use like music notation was.
        
         | daniel_reetz wrote:
         | Choreographers have almost no means to copyright their creative
         | work and the Choreographer's Guild presently seeks to protect
         | said work and get choreographers credited and paid.
         | 
         | It may be that notation has a renewed utility by virtue of
         | creating a copyrightable artifact.
        
           | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
           | > Choreographers have almost no means to copyright their
           | creative work
           | 
           | That's simply not true. In the US choreographic works have
           | been explicitly copyrightable since 1976, and things like the
           | Balanchine Trust have existed for over 40 years. Written
           | notation is not necessary - a video is sufficient.
           | 
           | What organizations like the Choreographer's Guild do is more
           | change the _cultural_ expectations around dance copyright
           | than the legal possibilities. That is, in the dance
           | /entertainment world, often times a choreographer is hired
           | for peanuts and is simply unaware of their legal rights
           | around copyright. But when it comes to what is legally
           | possible/necessary, there is no difference really between
           | what, say, a photographer who is hired to do a photoshoot can
           | do vs. a choreographer hired to produce a work of dance.
        
             | UweSchmidt wrote:
             | You appear to be in favour of said Guild trying to change
             | the cultural expectation for _more_ copyrights, now
             | extending to _human movement_. Needless to say this evokes
             | the image of corporations like Disney ending up with those
             | copyrights and going after people doing the zoomer dance
             | long after the Mickey Mouse copyright will have expired.
             | Are those worries warranted?
        
               | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
               | Not really, but then again anyone can basically argue the
               | interpretation of anything in law. I would say that in
               | many other professions creators have been paid for their
               | works long after they've been created, but choreographers
               | have basically been shafted for a long time, usually only
               | being paid a daily or weekly rate for the original
               | creation.
               | 
               | I found this interesting article about a very well-known
               | choreographer and his quest to copyright his works,
               | including his famous "Single Ladies" choreography for
               | Beyonce: https://www.billboard.com/music/music-
               | news/jaquel-knight-bey.... The thing I find weird/ironic
               | about this is that the Single Ladies choreography
               | famously copies a _lot_ from Bob Fosse 's "Mexican
               | Breakfast" (the article I linked talks about this in
               | detail). While I personally agree with the quote from the
               | article, "You see the three ladies, you see the
               | inspiration -- but the funk, the stylized movement,
               | they're extremely different. I mean, how I got here as an
               | artist is being inspired by those who came before me", in
               | terms of copyright law, I think there is _much_ more
               | similarity between Mexican Breakfast and Single Ladies
               | than there is between, say, the song Blurred Lines and
               | Marvin Gaye 's Got to Give it Up, which Blurred Lines was
               | found guilty of infringing.
               | 
               | I also found it annoying that the article I linked stated
               | "For a Black creator in an industry that has long
               | appropriated Black culture..." but then goes on to argue
               | that the amount of copying done from Mexican Breakfast is
               | just "the creative process". To be clear, I think it _is_
               | part of the creative process, but it 's annoying the
               | author can see none of the hypocrisy about taking about
               | "cultural appropriation" while then devoting paragraphs
               | to how the copying of Mexican Breakfast is somehow
               | totally different.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | True. Labanotation is sometimes taught to dancers. A published
         | report card for Madonna shows she got a D in that class. But
         | choreographers do not compose in dance notation.
         | 
         | Here's a decent explanation of Labanotation.[1] I once looked
         | at it as a possible input language for an animation program.
         | Bad idea.
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20220501031730/https://www.dance...
        
       | twunde wrote:
       | Something adjacent is the Underscore dance's glyphs (
       | https://globalunderscore.com/underscore-glyphs/ ) which describe
       | the patterns/phases of contact improvisation
        
       | retrac wrote:
       | The only writing system for sign languages that has significant
       | adoption ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting ) was
       | developed not by a linguist like other systems had been, but by a
       | dance instructor, who was inspired by such notation systems. It
       | borrows many of the ideas about how to notate orientation and
       | movement, and works somewhat like a phonetic alphabet. There is
       | close transcription with every little join and variation
       | precisely notated, and also a more abstract kind of transcription
       | which assumes fluency where the reader can fill in the gaps.
        
         | TRiG_Ireland wrote:
         | I also immediately thought of Sutton SignWriting. (She also
         | created a movement writing suite, including notation for insect
         | movement.)
        
       | yair99dd wrote:
       | [1989] Merce Cunningham used a software called LifeForms[1]
       | (later DanceForms) developed in colab with SFU researchers.
       | producing over a dozen pieces including Ocean and BIPED[2]. its
       | still online and used to have (~10years ago) the license key as
       | plain text on the download page. i see its now ~200$...
       | 
       | so he did the reverse, start with digital notation and move to
       | flesh.
       | 
       | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baBYHWI3wLY [2]
       | https://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/stories/2019/11/sfu-software-key-...
        
         | yair99dd wrote:
         | also, this article misses a few notations and anecdotes.
         | 
         | laban was commissioned in the 20s to use his method to optimize
         | factory worker motion to increase early assembly-line
         | productivity.
         | 
         | bat-sheva, a fairly known dance group in the 90/00 uses Eshkol
         | Wachman movement notation and employ a dedicated team of dance
         | notation writers to write and teach it to new dancers. maybe im
         | behind the times, but i still find this magic.
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSHuhhO5VIU
        
       | TRiG_Ireland wrote:
       | I'm surprised that there's no mention of Sutton DanceWriting. I
       | don't know how important it may or may not be in the world of
       | dance notation (though I do know that Valerie Sutton worked with
       | the Royal Danish Ballet, so it was used to some extent), but it's
       | very important as the foundation of Sutton SignWriting, the only
       | method of writing sign languages to have gained anything
       | approaching widespread acceptance.
        
       | ryukoposting wrote:
       | I'm a little surprised there's no mention of marching band dot
       | charts, though I guess that isn't "dance" per se. It's an
       | interesting case because a lot of people are exposed to it in
       | high school, and it can't really be supplanted by video the way
       | that these dance notation methods can.
        
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       (page generated 2024-09-07 23:00 UTC)