[HN Gopher] Study: Playing D&D helps autistic players in social ...
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Study: Playing D&D helps autistic players in social interactions
Author : tomgp
Score : 146 points
Date : 2024-09-06 09:05 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| 1GZ0 wrote:
| Had many similar experiences when role playing in video games
| like Minecraft with an autistic relative. Him putting his needs
| and emotions in the context of the game made him readily engage
| in banter in a way that he would normally have a tough time
| doing.
| fiftyacorn wrote:
| From experience it can be hard to judge whether participation
| in the banter is truly them putting themselves in the context
| of the game, or just mirroring the existing banter
| idiotsecant wrote:
| People on the spectrum are often quite adept at 'task based'
| communication, in the service of clear objectives and common
| goals. To the point that neurotypical friends and family might
| be frustrated that they are so focused on the task. It becomes
| more difficult when that socialization is open-ended.
| holsta wrote:
| I've run games with self-described autistic players, and I found
| it a supreme challenge.
|
| * Being unable to complete a character sheet unless someone
| walked them through it and made every decision for them * Being
| unable to come up with character background * Not being able to
| communicate if they were coming to a game or not * Being 30-40
| mins late without communicating * Walking around, playing on
| their phone * Demanding handwritten journals / game tracking
| because the sounds of typing ruined the immersion for them *
| Constantly having to remind them of rules from session 0, such as
| 'no alcohol before or during the game' * Extreme arguing over
| dice rolls * Projecting their trauma onto many character and DM
| interactions * Showing up with real-life gifts for the DM,
| expecting in-game rewards
|
| Most recently, I lasted 12 sessions of 4-6 hours each before I
| cancelled the game. It killed my joy and I haven't DM'd since.
| It's been years now.
|
| Typing that out made feel sad.
| voidUpdate wrote:
| It sounds like you just had some awful players, I've played
| with a lot of people on the spectrum and the majority of the
| time they've been fine to play with
| AnEro wrote:
| Yea mostly they are obsessive about the game like I'd say
| they'd be more likely to be min-maxers from my experience.
| Just unintentionally so you don't have alot of the toxic
| downsides of the min-maxers of forcing xyz situations or not
| having a backstory, it was more thats how they had fun
| building a character.
| voidUpdate wrote:
| Yeah, generally I will minmax a bit, but I do try to bear
| in mind the character themself when I design them, so I'll
| try to organise stats optimally, but pick thematic spells,
| for example. I have fun not dying, but also in having a
| character that makes sense to me
| AnEro wrote:
| Which makes it so fun to dm! I had someone make basically
| a batman character, but it was a min-maxed goblin shadow
| monk. Who thought he was a great investigator but wasn't,
| which always was funny to have a dumb batman trying to
| insecurely inserting himself into situations he
| shouldn't. He didn't meditate, he 'brooded' and was only
| technically useful in stealing/combat or when wisdom was
| in play. So at the campfire he'd be able to console the
| warrior for losing with the wisest thing that character
| has heard, only to follow up with something extremely
| dumb immediately after.
| mikebonnell wrote:
| Would highly recommend checking out Critical Core -
| https://gametogrow.org/criticalcore/ which makes it much easier
| for both players to start and DMs to manage
| tourmalinetaco wrote:
| I've had similarly poor experiences, unfortunately. I have two
| autistic friends, and they're good people, but they both have
| very... specific ideas of what a fantasy world must entail, one
| of which is far more attainable than the other, if they could
| properly play along. So one wished to be a mary sue-esque elven
| princess wizard, which I okayed because they were at least
| trying, although decisions such as weapons, prepared spells,
| and especially combat were harder for them so I guided most of
| those. My other autistic friend was particularly difficult
| though. His favorite character is from a retro video game, and
| he wanted to play that character, which by itself is fine.
| However, he wanted to play his _fanfiction_ version, which he
| said was a "lone wolf" who wouldn't stick with the party, and
| he wanted his uber-special one-shot sword. I worked to bring
| him down a peg and got him to agree that, for the sake of the
| mission, he should stay with the party and if "lone wolf" is
| particularly important we can do games outside of the main ones
| too. Unfortunately that session ended rather poorly because not
| one of my 5 players could focus.
|
| The last session I tried a year or so ago, and had the same
| person fanfic-writer attempting to demand control for everyone
| in the party because he "was the better tactician" because he
| "played Fire Emblem before". My players ignored him and he got
| upset, and I had another player leave for unrelated reasons
| (D&D just wasn't their thing, which I understood).
|
| Now he's been "trying" to make his own campaign, so he can get
| the control he desires from running the monsters, but that's
| been somehow slower than his other projects.
|
| Typing this out made me sad too, I haven't been able to DM
| properly for a while.
| entropie wrote:
| > Being unable to complete a character sheet unless someone
| walked them through it and made every decision for them
|
| We used to play various table-top role-playing games over 20
| years ago. D&D is known for its totally humiliatingly complex
| character creation, which is usually totally unnecessary,
| especially when 'learning' new players.
|
| Edit: sorry for my confused mind; I meant DSA not D&D.
|
| Character background is also not that important in my opinion.
| You simply explain that the goal is to play a role and that the
| character's background is important and determines his actions.
| Demanding that everything is well thought out increases the
| barrier to entry immensely. So keep it simple.
|
| I remember my first ~~D&D~~ (Edit: DSA) sessions with new
| groups where it literally took us 5 hours to get all the
| characters ready.
|
| Our group, after years of experience, simply explained the
| world to new players (we preferred to play World of Darkness,
| or shadowrun). We asked them what they wanted to play and
| roughly decided together with them what their strengths and
| weaknesses were. Rolling dice was more of a show for the
| newcomers, we hardly ever rolled dice ourselves. If you had
| 9/10 points in physical strength, we didn't think you needed to
| roll if you hit someone in the face. That just hurt.
|
| Our rounds became more and more enjoyable over time. Fewer
| rules, fewer dice orgies. More common sense. More focussed on
| each other and on the game itself. At the very end, we even
| played without a game master. Often ancestor rounds in world of
| darkness (vampires that were several hundred years old.
| Something like demigods.) Dice rolling was more or less
| obsolete. We had night-long in-charachter conversations.
|
| Oh, I miss that very much.
|
| I have autistic traits and it definitely helped me to put
| myself in other people's shoes. But it helped me even more to
| overcome my speech disorder and to learn how to deal with it
| (stuttering).
| thfuran wrote:
| Has there been any edition of d&d where character creation is
| more involved than any edition of shadowrun?
| aetherson wrote:
| No. I don't know what your parent poster is talking about.
| D&D chargen is not in any edition of the game terribly
| complex.
|
| It's not wildly simple, either -- D&D is squarely "rules
| medium" and there are plenty of RPGs with simpler chargen.
| But it's not notably hard for its space.
|
| 20 years ago there was more manual calculation of numbers
| on a character sheet, that now is likely to be handled by a
| digital sheet
| entropie wrote:
| Yeah you right; I meant DSA and edited my comment
| accordingly.
| entropie wrote:
| Ah my mistake, I meant DSA and not D&D.
|
| In my opinion, character creation in shadowrun is
| relatively simple, if a little time-consuming. In WoD
| character creation takes 10 to 30 minutes max, even for a
| complete beginner.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| Backstory and internalizing the game system is a lot less
| straightforward in WoD though because the intent is to
| provide just enough rail to facilitate creativity within
| the setting.
| Aardwolf wrote:
| > D&D is known for its totally humiliatingly complex
| character creation, which is usually totally unnecessary,
| especially when 'learning' new players.
|
| Had to do that as "homework" before my first D&D session long
| ago, and it was indeed a long process, but that actually made
| it very exciting for me and made me invested in the character
| from the start!
| dspillett wrote:
| I'm sure it is all more pronounced with someone who is truly
| deep enough in the autistic gamut, but for each of those
| complaints I can name at least one person in my life who, while
| not on the spectrum at all as far as I know, exhibit that
| trait. Particularly the time keeping and communications ones, I
| could name several for those. Myself certainly on timekeeping
| (though I do at least let people know my estimated delay!).
| c-c-c-c-c wrote:
| _Constantly having to remind them of rules from session 0, such
| as 'no alcohol before or during the game'_
|
| That sounds like the most boring DnD session ever, we get so
| high that any underlying condition is masked by having a damn
| good time. ;)
| Fnoord wrote:
| (I'm diagnosed.) You wouldn't wanna be around me playing D&D
| if I was high. No gaming would be done, only laughing and
| craziness. Besides, I had various psychotic episodes on
| marihuana (whilst mushrooms and various other drugs were OK).
| There's a good reason I don't consume marihuana anymore. Any
| drugs for tgat matter, but specifically I want to avoid a
| common one (here in Amsterdam Area).
|
| Similarly, I'm aware some people cannot behave or function on
| other drugs such as alcohol (same for me). I wouldn't say
| others aren't allowed to drink but I don't want to smell
| cigarettes or cannabis. Smelling alcohol does nothing to me
| (obviously?)
|
| So it boils down to constructing a social agreement based on
| consensus. Something which works for everyone. Which is more
| difficult the more people on the spectrum are there, and the
| less flexible other players are regarding their quirks.
|
| So if the consensus is sober, be sober or don't join the
| team. Quite a simple concept. What happens here is that
| boundaries aren't respected (common with people on the
| spectrum). Explain the issue and (possible) consequences.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| > _we get so high that any underlying condition is masked by
| having a damn good time. ;)_
|
| I'm glad that works for you, but I've both tried playing D&D
| while high, and had some players who'd get high, and it was
| not particularly pleasant. In my experience, D&D requires
| more clarity of mind than marijuana tends to leave you with.
|
| And I say this as someone who's going to start drinking less
| during D&D games, because I've noticed that after my third
| beer, my DMing is not as good as it is after my first beer.
| Fnoord wrote:
| My experience with people on the spectrum (I'm a card carrying
| member myself) is very diverse but there is a constant: they're
| stubborn on specific stuff where others are not. For example, I
| don't want to sit near someone who's eating hard cheese (non-
| melted). I don't mind someone eating whatever though (and even
| if I would, personal choice). Looking back in my life, I
| learned a lot from RPGs (Hero Quest, Star Quest, various
| Gameboy Classic games, Warhammer Quest, Warcraft franchise
| (story-wise, too). More so than RTS or FPS. But I have also
| been nigh annoying whilst playing them. It helps to learn you
| are being annoying, as conflict allows one to rise up to the
| occasion. That being said, you need to accept _certain_ quirks
| as being part of the package. That is how any friendship or
| relation works; just people with autism are usually more
| accentuated. My wife and I are both on the spectrum, and we
| need to work with /around each other's quirks. Just the other
| day she demanded me to clean and refill a water bottle as she
| tastes other people otherwise. She even has that w/me, I found
| out (we are together for almost a decade). So I ended up
| cleaning it (she was with our son who was ill).
| ergonaught wrote:
| Knowing several autistic players for whom absolutely none of
| that is applicable, I'd say you had bad players. The "self-
| described autistic" element doesn't have much to do with that.
|
| Not everyone who wants to do a thing can or should do the
| thing.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| If you are running a pickup game open to new players you will
| probably have all the above problems which is part of the
| reason why I'd never run a D&D game.
|
| If I were going to run a game it would be a second-generation
| or later game like _Toon_ or _Paranoia_ or _Call of Cthulhu_
| which were all designed by people who played D &D and
| recognized what was wrong with D&D and the culture around it.
|
| To be fair newer versions of the game fix some of the
| brokenness such as too many kinds of dice (you think it is fun
| until you realize that unless you buy 20x as many dice as you
| need you're going to always be looking around on the floor the
| right dice, and there's nothing dramatic about rolling 20d6 for
| a dragon's attack because it's always going to do about 60
| points of damage, etc.)
|
| Second-generation games give you everything you need to start
| in a single book (even a scenario) whereas with D&D you need to
| buy several books just to get started.
|
| The long-term character progression works OK in a group of
| committed players but it makes the stakes so high that players
| take it so seriously so it is not a lot of fun for the DM. In a
| shorter, simpler game with higher character mortality you can
| give the guy who came in 30-40 min late a preroll, a minute of
| instruction, and some pretense for why they are late and it's
| NP.
|
| I am not going to say it is the high point of DMing because it
| isn't but if I want to run a _Paranoia_ game in a hurry I can
| kill off most of their clones before they get to the briefing
| room in my very dangerous Alpha complex with little-more-than
| random encounters and have them rolling on the floor laughing
| and coming back for more. Prerolls are probably more important
| preparation than an actual scenario because if people aren 't
| fluent with character creation they're going to ruin it for
| each other (e.g. if you are creating new characters you want to
| have 1-1 sessions with players and _not_ do it in a group... In
| D &D in particular you could spend years with a character and
| there is no way you want to rush the process, if I really
| wanted to do a D&D activity with young people I might just have
| them do nothing but create characters so they can get fluent)
|
| Unfortunately the same way that "autism" and pill-seeking
| behavior have crowded out awareness of other neurodivergences,
| developmental disabilities and mental health conditions, D&D
| has crowded out awareness of other tabletop RPG's so you will
| never see some study where people find 5 out of 75 depressed
| people had fun playing _D &D_ and 62 out of 75 depressed people
| had fun playing _Toon._
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Those are not autism problems. Those are indeed, self-described
| and they'll find any currently popular excuse to clear them of
| any responsibilities
| lupire wrote:
| Bullets don't work in HN markdown.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| > self-described autistic players
|
| I am going to say the terribly unfashionable, nay almost
| heretical for today's climate.
|
| I am fairly convinced vast majority of _self-described_ medical
| conditions, are not. I believe they are "trendy diagnosis" or
| "fad syndrome".
|
| Certain medical conditions receive heightened attention in
| media, leading to increased self-diagnosis or people claiming
| to have the condition because it's seen as socially or
| culturally relevant.
|
| Anyone recall the rash of Tourette syndrome TikTokers _after_
| an individual with the syndrome posted a highly viewed clip?
|
| e.g., ADHD, Gluten Sensitivity, Chronic Lyme Disease,
| Fibromyalgia, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS), and Autism
| or Asperger's Syndrome.
| thom wrote:
| My wife's an art psychotherapist and I DM for a couple of our
| kids and their friends. We've talked about this a fair bit -
| being able to externalise and contain difficult emotions can be
| extremely powerful. But also just having that relationship of
| trust, which I think D&D really demands, can be somewhat
| therapeutic. You're not going to get mocked for being serious,
| you're not going to get in trouble for being silly, and sometimes
| when there's conflict it helps to be able to mediate that through
| your character's persona. And sometimes you really just want to
| work out your rage and attack the nearest NPC and undo hours of
| preparation by your friendly local DM, who in turn will seek out
| his own favoured form of therapy.
| bane wrote:
| I'm reminded of this old video https://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA
|
| What makes it really humorous is how incredibly well it
| captures the particulars of an actual session, most notably the
| socially awkward interactions and in-jokes which normally would
| have been the focus of bullying, but in this space resonate as
| the sort of very _earnest_ fun play they were intended as.
|
| Having these places to go to, when the rest of your week is
| full of generally challenging interactions designed to tear
| people down, can be absolutely incredible sources needed to
| build up a sense of self-worth.
|
| D&D in some ways was possibly the place where the proto-seed
| for this kind of nerd-safe place was created. There may be some
| prior versions of this, maybe golden age Sci-fi book clubs or
| Trek gatherings or something, but D&D seems to be where it
| particularly gelled and crystalized _hard_. It 's no wonder
| that it became part of the 80's moral panic since it threatened
| to provide a place where nerd culture could find itself and
| took a measure of control away from those in charge of the
| panic with regards to _how_ one should behave and think.
|
| Today there are many many of these kinds of environments, and
| in a sense when formed a certain way like Open Source Software,
| have turned global industries upside-down. But even competitive
| card playing tournaments, demoscene parties, cosplay
| conventions, video game conventions, and so on are all an
| outgrowth of what D&D really started.
|
| My heart swells when I see little nerd culture shops that sell
| comic books and manga and figurines have signs out front for
| "Boardgame Thursdays!" or "Magic Tournament this Saturday!"
| Because there will for certain be at least one person who
| attends, who had an absolutely terrible month being shat on by
| most of the people they encounter, and will thrive in this
| place. Where it's safe to joke, be yourself, have fun. And that
| confidence and those social encounters might be not just enough
| to turn a nerdy kid into a CTO, but could also keep them away
| from the deep black hole of self-worthlessness, depression, and
| maybe worse.
| smodo wrote:
| Love the YouTube clip.
|
| I'm reminded in turn of Foucaults concept of heterotopia
| ('other place' or 'place of otherness') where things are
| different by design. The otherness of such spaces is one of
| their goals: they are there to provide an outlet for
| something or to hide or shield certain activities or thoughts
| (separating discourse).
|
| As a child I was taken out of school for a while because I
| couldn't cope and caused trouble. I was sent to a place for
| gifted children and met a lot of neurodivergent kids. It
| wasn't a DnD gameroom but it was so explicitly outside the
| norm that I could put myself back together and reenter
| society on my own terms. I've been attracted to such places
| ever since, even running my own community center for a couple
| of years.
|
| So uh, totally agree with what you said and all of the above
| is just to add that there's a lot more heterotopias than one
| might think.
| bane wrote:
| Thank you for giving me a word to describe these places!
| torginus wrote:
| Honestly I think socially awkward people quickly get ostracized,
| and socially isolated early in life.
|
| Due to this, they get less chances to practice social
| interaction, something they were somewhat worse at in the first
| place, and fall even further behind on these skills.
|
| DnD allows them to practice these skills, such as high-stakes
| social conflict, bargaining, and just plain old getting along, in
| a relatively safe environment.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| It's not just lack of practice, when these people get picked on
| they internalize low self value, so even if they practice
| social skills enough to get the hang of it they're still going
| to be awkward because they tend to act from a "loser" frame.
| That internalized low self value can be incredibly hard to fix,
| much harder than just developing social skills.
| imbnwa wrote:
| Also known as "Loser's Lose" and "Winner's Win". A lot of
| social dynamics run on this principle.
| JaumeGreen wrote:
| It also gives people a framework in where to learn how to
| communicate. They can try different approaches, the stakes are
| low (in real life terms) if they fail, their companions and the
| DM will not only serve an example but give hints on how to do
| that better.
|
| Anyone with problems in social communication could make use of
| it as a great resource.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Yes, this is correct, I think. It is a painful but true fact
| that the world is constructed according to the preferences of
| the majority neurotypical population, and if you want to
| survive in it you need strong masking and coping strategies if
| your brain doesn't work the same way. It is not fun developing
| or using these strategies but it's vitally important.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| The popularity of D&D with people on the spectrum is similar to
| the popularity of fantasy/sci-fi lit and games and movies for the
| same population group, and for the same reasons (ime): technical
| abstractions and a strong focus on "systems" ('logical' magic
| systems are valorized over 'illogical' ones), often simplistic
| characters with very clear telegraphed and consistent archetypes,
| plots with heavy focus on simpler good vs. evil conflict, more
| chances to identify with non-human characters (a vehicle for
| expressing divergent thought processes/behaviors).
|
| The difference maker seems to be that well done D&D games, with
| good DMs, force the players to interact with each other and
| problem solve together. Which, to me, suggests there's nothing
| particularly special about D&D beside it being something that
| people on the spectrum like --- what is special is the social
| interaction and problem solving. It would be interesting to see
| how gender plays into further studies. In my experience, autism
| in women can often look quite different than autism in men
| (generalizing of course).
| baerrie wrote:
| I challenge the notion that autistic people seek more logical
| systems or simpler moral situations. Imo the day to day
| interactions of people and the world views they ascribe to are
| far simpler than many complex games or fantasy/scifi themes and
| or stories. In my experience, i have an excess of thinking
| around every single thing so seeing that complexity and nuance
| captured in media or a game, and in people willing to dive into
| those intricacies, makes me feel seen.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| That's interesting. In my experience with people on the
| spectrum, obviously acknowledging that the spectrum is so
| broad and inclusive at this point as to be almost meaningless
| in terms of specificity, they really, _really_ , want logical
| systems and struggle with ambiguity, whether that be in
| moral, social, or fictional, situations. Clear cut
| distinctions between wrong and right, and these media
| properties themselves, give them an almost joyous sense of
| ease and confidence. It can be very personal for them.
|
| Fantasy and sci-fi themes in media can be complex, but, in my
| experience, the people I know on the spectrum are far more
| drawn to fare of a particular kind: systems focused and
| morally clear-cut. Complexity for them is often more about
| scale. They'll pick a Brandon Sanderson book/series over a
| Gene Wolfe book (or Peake's _Gormenghast_ ) or a much more
| thematically and emotionally rich and complicated realist
| story like Proust's _In Search of Lost Time_ (comparable in a
| way to the giant fantasy epics with multi volumes). They 'll
| pick an enormous space opera over Ursula K Le Guin's _The
| Dispossessed_.
|
| But these are all generalizations. Manifestations of autism
| can look and be wildly different.
| consteval wrote:
| I don't think simpler is the correct word, but more
| understandable.
|
| As in, given an end state you can trace back the series of
| events and actions to how you got there. So for a character
| in a movie or in a story or in a DND campaign, you can look
| at where they're at, and then trace back and find out how
| they got there. Even in pretty complicated movies, because
| the audience needs to know and understand what's going on.
|
| But people aren't like that generally, because you don't have
| enough knowledge typically and you don't necessarily know why
| people are the way they are. Feelings can come up for no
| reason, or for a reason you can't identify. They can even
| come 40 years ago, perhaps their inception when you were a
| baby.
|
| You talk about "excess of thinking" and complexity, and I
| think this sort of points to that.
|
| Movies, characters, DND can be rationalized. Humans, their
| feelings, and their actions, often can't. Not because they're
| more complex, but because people aren't rationale beings.
| Most people can't pinpoint where their own feelings stem from
| and it takes years of therapy to find that out - let alone
| the feelings of others. And, even worse, the feelings of
| those you don't know well.
| voidUpdate wrote:
| Another thing that I've found seems to unite a lot of ND people
| liking fantasy and such is the escapism, being able to imagine
| yourself in a "better" world where weird people are accepted
| and liked, and especially with roleplaying games you can almost
| literally be in that world, making a difference and feeling
| like you matter
| devbent wrote:
| The other major difference is that table top gaming is a
| constrained environment where one is allowed to act socially
| different than normal, and mistakes at the table are left at
| the table.
|
| Players are allowed to play someone with a completely different
| personality, and spend extended amounts of time stepping into
| someone else's head and thinking how someone different would
| act.
|
| There aren't any other situations in life where you can take
| someone socially awkward and say "ok now act really
| charismatic" and then, w/o judgement, that person spends 2 or 3
| hours a week for months on end trying to figure out what a
| charismatic person would say and do.
| lupire wrote:
| Most of the result is
|
| "Autistic people are more comfortable playing D&D than in natural
| social interactions", which is well known.
|
| A small part was that some people "bleed" personality from their
| fantasy persona to their real persona.
|
| You can do that in D&D, but you can also do that with any kind of
| self-talk / persona building / masking, which non-autists also
| do. Actors in movies and plays do it too.
| ksymph wrote:
| I'm autistic, but I've never found the appeal of D&D. All the
| challenges and social pitfalls are still there in interacting
| with other players, but on top of that there's an additional set
| of unfamiliar rules and expectations for how to play my character
| and the game. Outside of the social aspect, I don't enjoy it as a
| game much either, with its slow pace and focus on narrative.
|
| Though, both groups I've played it with consisted of close
| seasoned players, none of whom I was particularly comfortable
| with, which isn't the best introduction. I'm curious how much the
| particular setup in the study affected the outcome, with the
| social reference sheets and presumably other unique factors -
| with how much D&D can vary based on the DM and players, it'd be
| interesting to see this study done with a variety of DMs guiding
| things in different ways.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| > with its slow pace and focus on narrative
|
| am curious, could you elaborate a touch on these? TIA
| a1o wrote:
| I must have played a different D&D, the group I used to play
| very much favored Hack & Slash. When we wanted something more
| narrative we used a different system (GURPS was a good one)
| tstrimple wrote:
| That's interesting, I find the combat in GURPS to be FAR
| more satisfying and less restrictive than D&D. It's
| definitely more number crunching and more complex, but it's
| an internally consistent system so once you know it things
| flow pretty well. The leaky abstractions from D&D feel too
| much like it's trying to replicate a video game and doing
| so poorly.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| Ironically it's closer to the other way around: Most
| video game RPGs are mechanically either based on D&D,
| based on another tabletop RPG that came about in the same
| era (Runequest, etc), or based on a tabletop RPG that was
| in-turn based on D&D.
| tstrimple wrote:
| Yes and no. There are some major issues in my mind like
| Armor Class which fortunately video games don't really
| mess with. I started playing D&D back in the Skills and
| Powers days. You had a lot more character creation
| options and more granular systems than what D&D has
| simplified into. It's really the latest versions of D&D
| that I feel like are a bad video game abstractions.
| Probably because of their streamlining efforts for the
| D20 system.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| I prefer GURPS myself (although I prefer a "point-free"
| variant; you can put whatever advantages, disadvantages,
| skills, etc that you want to without worrying about the
| points or whether or not the modifier you want has been
| published in any book).
|
| However, I think that GURPS can be OK for combat as well as
| narrative and other stuff. If you use many expansions books
| as well, then more options are possible. GURPS combat also
| has many options, and also I like the rules better than D&D
| in many ways. (Still, I think there are some problems with
| GURPS, and had tried to make up SciRPS to be better (in my
| opinion). Although GURPS has many skills, I think too many
| things are often combined in one skill; e.g. Brawling skill
| involves all unarmed combat (by punch, kick, claws, bite,
| horns, etc), but if you are skilled at only biting but not
| punch/kick, then it doesn't do that; skill of Morse code is
| the same skill as operating the communications devices to
| use it and are not separated; etc. "Point-free" helps a bit
| with this, but I think that it could be improved further,
| which is what I intended with SciRPS.)
|
| To me, the RPG is that you can have many things together,
| including combat, magic spells, narrative,
| strategy/tactics, etc. This is what makes it what it is,
| rather than a computer game which is a different kind of
| game.
|
| Although you might have plans (and the GM might have
| plans), many things will happen unexpectedly, due to what
| others are doing, due to the results of dice, etc, so that
| is another thing that RPG is.
| michaelt wrote:
| There are plenty of valid ways to play D&D, and they might
| not all have a slow pace. But it's very easy for D&D to end
| up pretty slow.
|
| In a combat scene with 4 party members and 4 enemies, 7/8 of
| the time it's not your turn. And if you're playing a simple
| character that just hits with a sword, while other players
| are wizards with dozens of spells to choose between their
| turns will naturally take longer.
|
| Computer games are much faster paced.
| ksymph wrote:
| Yes, this is exactly what I meant. TTRPGs typically have
| more time spent not doing anything compared to computer
| games (and board and card games too, to a lesser extent)
| simply by involving a group of people and being largely
| 'single-threaded'.
|
| As for what I mean by narrative, much of the appeal of D&D
| seems to lie in crafting the story and adventure, being a
| part of the plot. If the setting and narrative were
| completely removed, and the game was reduced down to the
| most basic mechanical actions - go to location x,y and do
| foo to bar, etc., it would be a very different game.
|
| Not to say the mechanical aspects don't make up part of the
| appeal of D&D and other TTRPGs too, but they're not a focus
| as much as in, say, a computer strategy game, or even
| something like an action platformer, where that _is_ the
| game, and story /characters/etc. make up little (if any) of
| the gameplay.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| > As for what I mean by narrative, much of the appeal of
| D&D seems to lie in crafting the story and adventure,
| being a part of the plot
|
| That's what I was after. I know some people play in a
| much more involved way but when I played so many years
| ago I love the plot and setting, but really worked the
| mechanics. It may have been you got a DM or group that
| was just not suited to you.
| oveja wrote:
| You can still do things even if your character isn't. A
| big draw of D&D is the social aspect, you can still
| roleplay reacting to being hit or seeing an ally do
| something.
|
| If you want to exercise your brain while waiting on your
| turn do like high-level chess players and think during
| other people's turns, I find that fun. Think how the
| recent decisions or rolls modify the state of the
| battlefield or your chances of victory.
| mystified5016 wrote:
| I hear you there. My first introduction to D&D was in a long-
| form campaign like this. It was pretty much as stressful as you
| describe. There were also a couple of incidents where I got
| pushed past my limits or something hit one of my triggers.
|
| However. After that, my husband and I joined a D&D club where
| the campaigns are 16 weeks long. Every few months you're at a
| new table with new players and new characters. I found that to
| be a lot more tolerable, and has really improved my social
| skills. The thing about clubs like this is there's always new
| people playing for the first time, and no one takes anything
| too seriously. Plenty of room to fuck up without real
| consequence.
|
| On the other hand, after four or five seasons, I'm real sick of
| short form campaigns and the lack of routine or continuity.
| It's also pretty tiring to invent a new persona for a character
| all the time.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Seems like an extension of the observation that very introverted
| people can unexpectedly flourish in acting professions: I think
| people who are socially awkward can have an easier time
| compartmentalizing their social anxieties when under a persona
| because there's a part of the brain that can say, "It's not _me_
| ; I'm playing a role."
| BurningFrog wrote:
| I suspect it's more that there is a script.
|
| You don't have the "what am I supposed to say now??" panic, and
| you don't have to understand an unfamiliar social situation.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| You arguably have a "script" in D&D, too, in the form of your
| character sheet. "I am a chaotic neutral dwarf. I will act
| aggressively towards elves.", etc. You are encouraged to act
| and speak as your character, not as yourself.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| I think it is not really a "script"; it is a description of
| the character. This will affect as you will do in the game,
| and you will have to make it up what happens according to
| the circumstances as it is being done, instead of
| everything being written ahead of time. (Even if you do
| have plans, which you might (I often will, and the GM also
| often will), things will happen unexpectedly and cannot use
| the plans exactly like they are anyways.)
|
| I think that you do not generally need game mechanical
| traits in your character sheet to do this; you can write it
| in a spare section if you want to do (it is useful to have
| spare sections for this and other purposes; I will often
| want to add many extra notes that there are not pre-defined
| sections for).
|
| In GURPS, you would generally represent some of such things
| with mental disadvantages and quirks. I prefer to not use
| mental disadvantages unless I specifically want the game
| effects of those disadvantages (e.g. if you are unlucky, or
| cursed, or take only half as many turns as other
| characters, or you will tell the truth half of the time
| that you do not intend to do so, etc), and would generally
| rather have a choice, even if my character's personality is
| supposed to be something, I can do it by myself instead of
| making the game to try to do it for me. I do usually add
| quirks though, and I do more often want physical and social
| disadvantages.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Introversion seems like it would be orthogonal to acting
| ability. Acting _does_ need a very strong model of the
| 'other', though. An actor needs to be able to model how someone
| else might be feeling and more importantly, manifesting those
| feelings externally. So while an introvert might be a good
| actor someone on the autism spectrum might not be.
| mock-possum wrote:
| I think for me, and maybe this should be obvious - what truly
| helps is having a good DM.
|
| Because then you're not just having a chance to 'play' at social
| interactions - you're playing _under the watch of a caring
| mediator._ The DM is going to clarify things, guide the
| discussions and dialogues, suggest options, correct
| misassumptions, etc. - in a way that almost no one ever would
| IRL.
|
| Play-acting social interaction isn't really any less nerve
| wracking to me than having a 'real' interaction, because to me
| all interactions _are_ acting anyway as far as I'm concerned.
| There isn't any fundamental difference in terms of energy
| expended - _unless_ someone else, e.g. the DM, is there to
| shoulder some of that workload. Then it's a little easier, a
| little lower stakes.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > to me all interactions are acting anyway as far as I'm
| concerned
|
| I suspect this is a point that is often under-appreciated. I
| don't have much else to add but it really can't be overstated
| how accurate this is. Just wanted to highlight the statement
| since I think it expresses the idea well.
| starkparker wrote:
| > Atherton et al. wanted to specifically investigate how autistic
| players experience D&D when playing in groups with other autistic
| players. It's essentially a case study with a small sample size--
| just eight participants
|
| This is a nice study but not one to extrapolate anything from.
| carom wrote:
| Why is this style of comment on every single study that gets
| posted? It was a small sample size in rats, we get it.
| throwaway-x881 wrote:
| Related:
|
| Seminar on "Dungeons and Dragons Group Therapy":
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwP8Jhkl3w
| blobbers wrote:
| All-in podcast was presenting RFK recently who highlighted autism
| rates of 1/22. Is it just me or is the spectrum of autism now
| just labeling anyone with social awkwardness or challenges
| expressing feelings as autistic? Because I feel like there is
| socially awkward, and then there is 'Dating on the spectrum'
| level autistic.
|
| I'm not super up to date yet, but is there an actual 'science'
| based test (blood, dna, something other than observing
| behaviors). I've seen the diagnosis of l1, l2 and l3 autism, but
| this isn't cited by the paper (or at least wasn't in my skim).
|
| The paper does indicate that imagination, social interactions and
| community are benefits from D&D. These benefits aren't specific
| to autistic people though; all growing kids can benefit from
| these types of activities and they're challenges that
| neurotypical kids encounter as well.
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