[HN Gopher] Common food dye found to make skin and muscle tempor...
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Common food dye found to make skin and muscle temporarily
transparent
Author : _Microft
Score : 92 points
Date : 2024-09-05 19:48 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| _Microft wrote:
| Paper: ,,Achieving optical transparency in live animals with
| absorbing molecules",
| https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adm6869
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Ah, it "reduce[s] the [refractive index] contrast between water
| and lipids, leading to optical transparency of live biological
| tissues." Craziest part being it was predicted using a
| classical optical model [1]!
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_oscillator_model
| arcticbull wrote:
| From the article, the dye is tartrazine -- FD&C Yellow 5 or E102.
| excalibur wrote:
| Okay well getting yellow #5 on your skin definitely doesn't
| make you invisible.
|
| Source: Doritos
| pvaldes wrote:
| Never tested on humans
|
| Some tropical American frogs evolved to do it naturally (fam
| Centrolenidae). Some fishes also can do it also in a few
| different orders (Siluriformes and Perciformes at least), so in
| lower vertebrates it is possible and evolved several times.
|
| But they have a different metabolism than ours and a mouse skin
| is much more thin than our own skin. I assume that this effect
| will work only on very small animals and the optical effect will
| hit some thickness limit somewhere. Could work on fingers but not
| in heart. At this moment my hype level is a 4 over 10.
| jldugger wrote:
| > Never tested on humans
|
| But a few billion have ingested it in the past year, sometimes
| even in medical pill form to make yellow pills. Could be worse
| at higher doses but seems plausibly safe and worth further
| testing.
| karmajunkie wrote:
| The poison, as they say, is in the dose... just speculating
| but the quantity of dye ingested versus that used to render
| skin transparent may be such that the former is relatively
| innocuous while the latter would be very harmful. In
| particular it seems to be genotoxic at relatively low levels
| so that would be concerning for use in humans.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Truly wild. This could be an amazing advancement if true and
| safe!
| Reason077 wrote:
| I imagine it could eventually lead to a full invisibility
| serum, as documented in the classic Kevin Bacon film _Hollow
| Man_. Of course, we need to be aware of the side effects
| (mostly murderous rampaging).
| spuriouserror31 wrote:
| > Of course, we need to be aware of the side effects (mostly
| murderous rampaging).
|
| Common side effects include rash, constipation, nausea,
| diarrhea, dizziness, homicidal urges, drowsiness, insomnia,
| headache, and dry mouth.
| moralestapia wrote:
| It says it's never been tested on humans and the proper diligence
| should follow,
|
| But given that we already eat large amounts of it with no harmful
| side effects, the expectations are good.
| ryanwhitney wrote:
| eh i just put some on the top of my hand and i didn't see any
| bones
| DFHippie wrote:
| Maybe you should get that hand x-rayed. Is it particularly
| bendy?
| pfdietz wrote:
| Tim: _Look at the bones!_
| gus_massa wrote:
| The dose makes the poison. Considering that food usually don't
| make your tongue transparent [1], probably you need to use more
| than the usual amount to get the effect.
|
| [1] Note that they get skin that is transparent only to one
| shade of red, it's not transparent to all the visible spectrum.
| moralestapia wrote:
| The _absorbed_ dose makes the poison.
|
| The effect of a substance is usually three orders of
| magnitude lower when you rub it on your skin vs. when you
| swallow it.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _effect of a substance is usually three orders of
| magnitude lower when you rub it on your skin vs. when you
| swallow it_
|
| Going out on a limb and guessing you're at an effective
| dose for _something_ when it 's making your skin
| transparent.
| alwa wrote:
| I'm surprised that this characteristic of an extremely common dye
| --being used in its main application, as a dye--hasn't been
| described before. Surely there's some limitation that's obvious
| to those skilled in the chemical and biological arts?
|
| Or is it really just a matter of serendipity waiting til now to
| lead anybody down the path of trying it this way?
| RobotToaster wrote:
| Given how common it is, it does seem weird that nobody has
| spilled it on themselves and noticed this effect.
| rincebrain wrote:
| The article says it's only to the depth it penetrates, so
| given that you have a lot of skin, comparatively, I'd guess
| it'd be hard to distinguish from the dye staining you weirdly
| for a bit.
| ckemere wrote:
| Makes me want to rub on some Doritos just to see...
| sschueller wrote:
| > while smearing it on the rodent's scalp allowed scientists to
| see blood vessels in the animal's brain.
|
| Since when do mice not have skulls?
| griffzhowl wrote:
| My thought too but later in the article it says that was by
| using the dye in combination with laser speckle imaging
| (whatever that is)
| dylan604 wrote:
| Everyone knows skulls are transparent in everything except
| x-rays. It is known
| janalsncm wrote:
| Skulls aren't transparent in visible light either.
| mattkrause wrote:
| Mouse skulls are very thin and you can sometimes image directly
| through them!
| ardrak wrote:
| > At the moment, transparency is limited to the depth the dye
| penetrates, but Hong said microneedle patches or injections could
| deliver the dye more deeply.
|
| Reverse tattoos incoming.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| If it dissolves in DMSO, penetration should be vastly improved.
| FjordWarden wrote:
| Sorry for being nerd, but your internal organs are going to get
| UV damage.
| murphyslab wrote:
| UV damage to internal tissues seems unlikely given that the
| tartrazine dye they used absorbs strongly in the UV region of
| the spectrum. You can see this in Figure S1 A & B:
|
| https://www.science.org/doi/suppl/10.1126/science.adm6869/su.
| ..
|
| Also the abstract of the article notes that strong UV
| absorption is likely a prerequisite for this effect:
|
| > We hypothesized that strongly absorbing molecules can
| achieve optical transparency in live biological tissues. By
| applying the Lorentz oscillator model for the dielectric
| properties of tissue components and absorbing molecules, we
| predicted that dye molecules with sharp absorption resonances
| in the near-ultraviolet spectrum (300 to 400 nm) and blue
| region of the visible spectrum (400 to 500 nm) are effective
| in raising the real part of the refractive index of the
| aqueous medium at longer wavelengths when dissolved in water,
| which is in agreement with the Kramers-Kronig relations. As a
| result, water-soluble dyes can effectively reduce the RI
| contrast between water and lipids, leading to optical
| transparency of live biological tissues.
|
| https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adm6869
|
| However this kind of research into the effects of absorption
| bands on the transmission properties at interfaces might
| ultimately bring about more effective sunscreen formulations.
| freen wrote:
| Awesomest Halloween ever.
| amelius wrote:
| "I can tell what you had for dinner"
| moribvndvs wrote:
| In Doritos? How are call of duty players not constantly
| transparent?
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| Their skin is transparent but cheeto dust isn't
| teeray wrote:
| I've seen this movie. It doesn't end well for Kevin Bacon.
| swayvil wrote:
| Halloween costume!
| seydor wrote:
| introspective people eat doritos
| aster0id wrote:
| New kink incoming
| evan_ wrote:
| When my little brother was 3 or 4 he stepped on a nail in our
| yard, probably dropped during some recent construction. It went
| all the way through his poor little foot, straight through, out
| the top. I can see it, vividly, in my mind's eye. Mom scooped us
| up and rushed us, still barefoot, to the ER. I remember him being
| almost calm- not the way I would have reacted. They x-rayed his
| foot and soaked it in a tub of what I now know to be iodine to
| kill bacteria. I remember this clearly: it was the first time I'd
| ever seen an x-ray in real life, rather than just in alphabet
| books.
|
| Fortunately the nail totally missed anything important, so they
| just pulled it out and bandaged him up- no worse for the wear. He
| went on to be an honest-to-God track star so it obviously didn't
| have any lasting effect.
|
| Decades later we were talking about something and he said to me,
| "Why don't they use that x-ray water anymore?". I had no idea
| what he was talking about so I asked him to elaborate.
|
| The way _he_ remembers the incident is that they put his foot
| into a bucket of amber liquid and, once submerged, his skin
| became transparent. He looked in and saw his own bones, blood
| vessels, and- in the middle of it all- the nail that was causing
| such a fuss. He described wiggling his toes, flexing his ankle,
| and seeing the bones and tendons move, directly, with his own
| eyes.
|
| His toddler brain, probably in shock, had combined the x-ray film
| and iodine bath. Over the years it had grown more detailed and
| reinforced. He described it with such clarity that I almost
| wondered if I hadn't been mistaken. He didn't believe me when I
| told him how I remember it. We called our mom who confirmed my
| version of events, plus did some googling, which finally
| convinced him.
|
| Anyway I just sent him this article. It's interesting that not
| only is the x-ray water he remembers theoretically possible, it
| would actually be amber.
| knodi123 wrote:
| That's fascinating! I also have a vivid childhood memory that I
| can see, clear as day, despite knowing as an adult that it's
| impossible. It's really uncomfortable to combine the facts that
| a.) memory is unreliable, and b.) memory is what gives me my
| sense of self.
|
| (if you don't accept that second fact, that's fine, I'm not
| here to convince anyone or debate)
| adamredwoods wrote:
| I wonder if this would improve Digital Optical Spectroscopy for
| cancer detection and monitoring?
|
| Also related: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/eden-2
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(page generated 2024-09-05 23:00 UTC)