[HN Gopher] IEEE President's Note: Why Students Should Stay with...
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IEEE President's Note: Why Students Should Stay with IEEE
Author : elashri
Score : 39 points
Date : 2024-09-01 16:52 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
| cvoss wrote:
| > For more than 40 years, IEEE has been a great place to build my
| personal brand and to create a valuable professional network. I
| know it can do the same for the next generation of engineers.
|
| If they have to make this case, it suggests some combination of
| 1) the organization doesn't actually provide these opportunities
| to most people, or 2) people don't actually care about this
| anyway. For me, this language is business-speak. When the
| business people in my company start talking like this, I stop
| listening. It's not interesting. Hard problems are what's
| interesting to me. That's why I'm in this field, not to "network"
| or hone a "personal brand".
|
| For me, IEEE student membership was worth it for the significant
| registration discounts at IEEE conferences. After graduating,
| since I'm no longer in academia, the one and only benefit ceased,
| so I immediately canceled my membership.
| roughly wrote:
| I don't know about IEEE in particular, but -
|
| > 2. People don't actually care about this anyway
|
| Is substantially different from "this doesn't generate value",
| "the people who do not care would were they to engage with it"
| (ie: the justification for marketing anywhere), and "people,
| especially young people, know how to evaluate this kind of
| thing."
|
| In particular, there's a generation gap around networking,
| professional organizations, etc, and indeed that may be because
| those organizations aren't valuable, or it could be some
| combination of "the older generation didn't explain this to the
| younger" and "the younger generation is convinced it knows
| everything it needs to", and I suspect if you're old enough at
| least some part of that will ring true to you.
| a_thro_away wrote:
| I'm truly interested in your thoughts... where would you
| discover truly hard problems? What do you feel would make you
| qualified to work on them, over, say someone else? enough to
| prove it to someone that could authorize such a salary and
| expenditure of time? Unless you were self-funded, of course.
| I've always wondered where and how would you discover what the
| edge of the knowledge and science actually is, and stay ahead
| of it? That is, to prevent reinventing the wheel and not to
| waste time? Just wondering as I've understood it by a lot of
| people over my career lifetime. Thank You.
| reliabilityguy wrote:
| You read papers and learn where the edge of the science is.
| a_thro_away wrote:
| Of course you do; and thats where a lot of the papers are
| locked up, behind IEEE/ACM/Science/Nature, other journals.
| I guess that's a huge reason to stay involved, if nothing
| more to access the different subgroups, both for journals
| and papers. There is often no other place, in my
| experience, to access that level of information and
| knowledge. And especially if you wish to publish, on the
| edge, yourself.
| ubj wrote:
| In academia this is typically accomplished through staying
| up-to-date with top tier journals and conferences. I would
| say this is one of the benefits of IEEE--they have quite a
| few high-quality venues. However, there are also plenty of
| top-tier venues that are not associated with IEEE.
| laymansterms wrote:
| Unfortunately, they also have plenty of low-quality venues
| that dilute the discoverability of the high-quality ones.
| Some orgs (Usenix for instance) hold to at least a decent
| standard across nearly all their research conferences, so I
| can better gauge the quality of a paper in a field I'm less
| familiar with based on whether it was accepted to a
| conference in that org. When it comes to IEEE, it seems
| like they'll let any low-quality journal or conference
| spring up with their brand as long as it brings in the
| cash.
| a_thro_away wrote:
| Exactly; if you wish I replied below. That is exactly the
| point of staying in such organizations, especially if you
| wish to be on the edge, and especially if you wish to
| publish, yourself.
| p1necone wrote:
| > where would you discover truly hard problems?
|
| You take simple problems and solve them in truly hard ways ;)
| riedel wrote:
| I also once in a while have IEEE membership because of some
| conference discount (even if it is not such a nobrainer as with
| student membership). Other than that I am just seeing a very
| intransparent huge org that does not provide much benefit. Some
| field are dominated by US researchers, some by Chinese. IEEE
| does not show much interest in breaking non-inclusive networks.
| Unlike ACM (which is far from perfect), I don't even recognize
| small bits a tranformative spirit. I had colleagues that had
| their IEEE status in their footer and used their IEEE, but most
| of those have been retired by now.
| OldGuyInTheClub wrote:
| > For more than 40 years, IEEE has been a great place to build
| my personal brand
|
| When I hear the phrase "personal brand," I normally throw up.
| Today was a normal day.
| eykanal wrote:
| I stayed past that for a bit but eventually cancelled as well,
| even though work offered to pay for membership. Same as above,
| once the conference discount wasn't necessary I gained
| absolutely nothing from the membership.
| fefe23 wrote:
| I couldn't read what he had to say because his site opened an
| interrupting dialog element asking me to subscribe or join or
| something.
|
| If I see that, I immediately stop reading and close the window.
|
| There is no better way to show me you are not actually talking to
| me than interrupting yourself and me with distracting bullshit UI
| elements.
| pbzcnepu wrote:
| maybe if IEEE wanted to keep students, they could support them,
| unlike during the 2019 ISCA peer review fraud incident where an
| IEEE fellow was caught in peer review fraud that lead to a
| student's death, and essentially it took years of intense
| pressure for them to stop allowing a cover up, do a minimal
| investigation, and in the end most of the people involved got a
| secret punishment that was likely a minimal slap-on-the-wrist at
| best
|
| https://pbzcnepu.net/ieee/index.html
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Because sci-hub is no longer adding new articles.
| elric wrote:
| I cancelled my IEEE membership years ago. I enjoyed their
| magazines and journals, but remember being frustrated at the time
| with their pricing. After I cancelled, they became aggressively
| spammy, and they are now on my shitlist. This President's Note
| seems to be more of the same.
| piotrke wrote:
| The same here. Being a member for ca. 9 years. After they made
| IEEE Spectrum digital only and even badges digital only, I
| completly lost my interest due to high expenses and limited
| overall value. Those two little physical things were a real
| bond to IEEE.
|
| Maybe it works for specialists in the narrow fields, but as I
| shifted from electronics to IT, I could not find real benefits
| for myself there, even in the "Computer" section.
| bgnn wrote:
| Yeah their offerings are not good on CS and IT. They have
| couple of good conference and journals in electronics. The
| member discounted rates are not that attractive though, and
| if your institution/company is paying, who cares? The real
| benefit is access to specific publications of a society. If I
| would be working for a big company with a unlimited access
| (for which they charge up hundreds of k$ per year) I wouldn't
| have been a member. I guess ot used to be important to be a
| senior member or fellow back in the day, but now nobody
| cares.
| a_thro_away wrote:
| In the past I wouldn't go to IEEE for IT and CS, except
| maybe, possibly for the physical level; that's the ACMs
| bailiwick. I had the distinct fortunate/unfortunate to be
| an absolute crossover, but could afford neither exsxcept
| when in pharma where they staffed their own libraries (from
| necessity), and paid for access.
| knowitnone wrote:
| In summary, "Give us your money. I promise we provide some
| benefit". As engineers, they should at least provide some data
| with this claim. A chart would be nice.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| "some benefit" meaning, you can hang out with other people who
| also paid to be there.
| ubj wrote:
| I have mixed feelings about this. I joined IEEE as a student for
| purposes of publications and getting discounts on conference
| rates. I have continued my membership mainly because it's common
| among my professional peers. There are some benefits.
|
| However, I have received more spam and unwanted mail (both
| electronic and physical) from IEEE than any other organization
| I've been a part of. I find it ironic that I am essentially
| paying to be marketed to.
|
| All-in-all I'm at about a 50% satisfaction rate with IEEE. The
| benefits are good enough to prevent me from leaving, but there
| are enough drawbacks that I wouldn't miss it at all if I did.
| reliabilityguy wrote:
| What kind of benefits do you find valuable?
| Onavo wrote:
| They occasionally have good insurance offerings,
| _occasionally_.
| ubj wrote:
| I'm still in academia, and IEEE runs quite a few high-quality
| / top-tier journals and conferences in my research area (TAC,
| TRO, RA-L, LCSS, ACC, CDC, etc.) I'm a part of the control
| systems society, and their Controls Systems Magazine is a
| good read. On the perhaps more trivial side an Overleaf
| professional subscription was included with my membership.
|
| So again, there are benefits. But I am frustrated that I'm
| being advertised to and having my data sold to third-party
| companies after paying over $200 per year for a membership. I
| also have issues with journal paywalls, but this is slowly
| changing as open access journals become more common.
| jldugger wrote:
| > So again, there are benefits. But I am frustrated that
| I'm being advertised to and having my data sold to third-
| party companies after paying over $200 per year for a
| membership.
|
| Isn't your library covering IEEE access?
| ubj wrote:
| Yes, my University library covers access to many (but not
| all) IEEE articles, but the ability to download and read
| IEEE articles from a library is completely separate from
| being an IEEE member.
|
| IEEE membership costs ~$229 for 2025 in the U.S. for
| Professionals [1]. This fee typically is not covered by
| universities in my experience.
|
| If you're asking why I don't simply access articles
| through my library and forget about the membership,
| members typically are given fairly significant discounts
| and enhanced options for publishing in conferences and
| open access journals.
|
| [1]: https://www.ieee.org/membership/join/dues.html
| anotherhue wrote:
| I've found the ACM more interesting than IEEE for some time now.
| a_thro_away wrote:
| True, but it does depend on your field. I was
| fortunate/unfortunate to have my feet in both over the years,
| and could not afford either early on, when I truly needed
| access.
| gs17 wrote:
| CACM is also a nice magazine subscription to have.
| aborsy wrote:
| You have to work hard and come up with new ideas better than
| anyone else in the world, and demonstrate that. Then IEEE asks A
| review the work of B and B review the work of A for free. If the
| work is good, IEEE will ask you to transfer your rights to your
| intellectual property to IEEE, and sometimes pay on top of that
| too. Of course, you have to pay exorbitant fees to present it.
| Lastly, you can't download your own paper from IEEE and must pay
| IEEE through a subscription or per article. So, IEEE takes your
| work and sells it back to you. Meanwhile, the access is not open
| in 2024, and there is a lot of unpaid volunteer activity,
| typically by local students and academics.
|
| Why? We give you a professional home!
|
| The cost of the online dissemination is minimal, and the events
| and societies are run mostly by the communities.
|
| Academia always seemed to be a fraud in some ways.
| ta988 wrote:
| Each scientific kingdom has the same. Chemistry has ACS for
| example, that even has secret agreements with university
| libraries (at the request of ACS not the librarians but they
| have no choice but to sign if they want the services).
| almostgotcaught wrote:
| > Academia always seemed to be a fraud in some ways.
|
| In the western world at least, it's the last surviving guild-
| like institution. The industrial revolution and liberalization
| (free markets) obviated other such institutions.
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| I hope we see more open and transparent alternatives take over
| these legacy systems. There's no reason to keep paying these
| useless middlemen so much money.
| jrpt wrote:
| IEEE Spectrum used to be good. I don't know whether it still is.
| Does anyone know?
| srvmshr wrote:
| It still is pretty good. That and the ACM CACM are my only
| subscriptions. I independently purchase the Spectrum only
| because I don't want to be associated with IEEE anymore.
|
| My reasons of cancellation are less fiduciary and more of a
| policy. In 2022, IEEE published an interview of two Russian
| researchers and effect of the intellectual & economic blockade
| in Russian academia after Ukraine invasion started. It sought
| pleas for donation & help. Many people pointed out it was tone
| deaf since the ones really suffering were the Ukrainian
| academics who were dislocated or persecuted in their own land.
| IEEE never commented or retracted those interviews & several
| people canceled their membership in disgust.
|
| I subscribe to Spectrum for about $50 through Omeda rather than
| continue giving IEEE additional membership fee. I know some
| part will be shared with IEEE, but I am minimizing this by
| conscious choice.
| hnspace4 wrote:
| > several people canceled their membership in disgust
|
| Looks like nothing of value was lost.
|
| Ukraine already gets 99.99% of airtime. Two Russian
| researchers -- not army generals or politicians, mind you --
| were given a chance to describe the problems the conflict has
| created for their side, and we're supposed to pretend that
| those problems do not exist and their struggle doesn't matter
| because somebody else has it worse.
|
| There's this thing called "journalism" where you're supposed
| to be given raw facts from all sides with as little
| interpretation (i.e. propaganda) as possible, and think for
| yourself. It used to be more common back in the day, though
| maybe not much. Now we only want to hear things that closely
| follow our own narrative, and ignore everything else. It's
| easier to live this way, I understand.
| bitfilped wrote:
| I keep mine because overall it saves me $50 on conference fees
| per year, I'd have cancelled it otherwise.
| probably_wrong wrote:
| A point of contention for me is the IEEE Code of Conduct [1]
| whose point 5.e. can be summarized as "I will not infringe the
| intellectual property of others". If you are critical of
| copyright itself (something not unusual among hackers) then the
| IEEE may not be the association for you.
|
| [10 https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/code-of-
| cond...
| userbinator wrote:
| Intellectual property, more like imaginary property.
| EnigmaFlare wrote:
| That seems to be a small minority in software. 2% of Github
| repos are Unlicense licensed, 16% are something else I don't
| know and for everything else, the authors have chosen to use
| copyright to restrict how others can use it in some way, even
| if it's just keeping their name on it.
|
| [1] https://github.blog/open-source/open-source-license-usage-
| on...
| teddyh wrote:
| One can be against something and still make use of it. Don't
| be "Mister Gotcha": <https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/>
| fhdsgbbcaA wrote:
| This is sickening to the core. IEEE charges people who submit
| their work FOR FREE, ann entire $2,000 to let people access their
| work!
|
| Want to help your career? Publish in a venue that doesn't charge
| a ransom to get your name out there. That will actually help your
| career.
|
| What a fraud.
|
| https://open.ieee.org/for-authors/article-processing-charges...
| AgentOrange1234 wrote:
| Years ago I tried to point out some inconsistencies in an IEEE
| standard. I failed to reach anyone who cared and eventually gave
| up, disgusted at the absolute pay to play nature of the entire
| thing. I certainly won't join or review for this unnecessary,
| unhelpful organization.
| gs17 wrote:
| I have to caution students that the discount isn't for as long as
| you're a student, it's 8 years total, so if you do a BS, MS, and
| then PhD, you probably won't get the discount the whole time (and
| that's $200 extra a year). I had to pare my membership down from
| societies and magazines to just the membership, as punishment for
| having been an excited high schooler.
| einpoklum wrote:
| Ok, let's see why Mr. President believe people should be members.
| I'll try to extract the arguments as to why that is beneficial
| for 1. Humanity. 2. Engineering/Technology 3. Me personally.
|
| > IEEE is ... an international community
|
| How is it a community, as opposed to part of a community? Are
| engineers who aren't IEEE members "not in the community"? It's
| not like there are secret weekly sessions with masks in the
| basement which only IEEE members know about.
|
| > that can help students build and sustain successful careers as
| technical professionals
|
| That's a conclusion you want me to reach. You need to tell us
| _how_ IEEE helps us do that.
|
| > For more than 40 years, IEEE has been a great place to build my
| personal brand
|
| Ugh. Why can't you say something like "recognition for having
| supported the collective and collaborative activity in my field"?
|
| > and to create a valuable professional network. I know it can do
| the same for the next generation of engineers.
|
| How does IEEE membership help me "create a valuable professional
| network"? Is the idea that luminaries in their field tend to
| answer IEEE members and engage with them more than non-IEEE
| members? Maybe, I don't know, but you haven't actually said that.
|
| > access to more resources--both professional and personal--that
| can help them advance within their field
|
| 1. Like, what resources?
|
| 2. If you mean the journals you're preventing the public from
| accessing, then really, shame on you. Scientific and
| technological information should be freely accessible by all.
|
| > and discover new interests.
|
| How would membership be useful for me in discovering new
| interests?
|
| > They will also have the opportunity to build soft skills,
|
| What opportunity?
|
| > raise their visibility,
|
| 1. You already said that.
|
| 2. Will they really? I don't think I notice people more because
| they are IEEE members. But, convince me, maybe I'm missing
| something (or maybe it's true in fields other than my own).
|
| > and make friendships that last a lifetime.
|
| How would IEEE membership make me friends? Not very convincing.
|
| > The organization provides professional contacts
|
| Again, how does it provide contacts other than those non-members
| have?
|
| > and a community that offers support, advice, and mentoring,
| independent of where they work.
|
| Does it really? Again, if that's actually true, then maybe it is
| worth it to be a member. But how does it do so? How community-
| like is the IEEE membership?
|
| > Within the organization, there are young people ... also...
| active engineers ... in industry, government, and academia, as
| well as retired professionals ...
|
| That is also true for the telephone directory. What do these
| people actually _do_ in the IEEE?
|
| > Through its technical societies, IEEE also has a tremendous
| reach
|
| Say what they do!
|
| > Whatever your focus is, there is a community within IEEE that
| will meet your needs.
|
| But what does it do?
|
| > It can lead to meaningful collaborative research opportunities
| that jump-start and advance one's career
|
| How?
|
| > and it can provide professional-development pathways that
| refine skills through leadership opportunities.
|
| How?
|
| > Many of the key benefits of volunteering
|
| This is the first sentence in this whole f'ing spiel which is
| starting to make sense. Instead of "IEEE will help you", it's an
| "IEEE is vehicle for helping others, volunteering, promoting the
| profession / the field etc."
|
| Ok, then why did you waste our time with the verbiage before,
| instead of telling us what we can do _for_ others via the IEEE,
| plus what the IEEE does for everyone with the dues we pay it or
| with our volunteering efforts?
|
| > provide opportunities to help guide the evolution of numerous
| fields,
|
| Which opportunities, man? Come on!
|
| > Serving as a volunteer can also help empower members to
| champion their ideas and hone their communication and
| presentation skills, as well as management experience, which are
| important for professional development.
|
| How? Through what mechanisms?
|
| ... (sigh) I give up.
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