[HN Gopher] Deepwater Sub Recovers Roman Battering Ram Used in C...
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Deepwater Sub Recovers Roman Battering Ram Used in Carthage in
Punic Wars Battle
Author : rntn
Score : 100 points
Date : 2024-08-31 13:27 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gizmodo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gizmodo.com)
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| The Punic wars are a fascinating era of history, and the article
| says this ram was used in the decisive battle of the first Punic
| war. When the first Punic war started Rome had only just expanded
| its territory to a portion of the Italian peninsula. By the time
| the second Punic war was finished, Rome controlled all of Italy,
| most of Iberia, Greece, Corsica and Sicily.
|
| Carthage was much more powerful than Rome was, and Rome really
| had no business thinking it could have won either of those wars.
| Rome lost so many battles during those wars, and only survived by
| outright refusing to give up, and then somehow pulling it out of
| the bag at a key moment. This battle was one of those moments,
| and Zama was another in the second war (in a campaign that Scipio
| basically had to fund himself after failing to get the support of
| the senate).
|
| There were so many moments in both of those wars where if it had
| gone another way, Rome could have very easily failed and become a
| Carthaginian vassal state. There would have been no Roman Empire,
| which arguably still shapes Europe to this day, and the history
| of Europe would have been a continent dominated by a North
| African empire.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| The Roman empire pretty much always contained Carthage
| territory. It's like wondering whether the British empire would
| have been meaningfully different if it's HQ was in Wales rather
| than England. Probably not.
|
| Consider also that the most important thinker in the empire
| after the classical period was Augustin, a North African.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| Not sure what you're trying to say here. By the time Rome
| became an empire, Carthage had already been wiped out of
| existence for over 100 years.
|
| Who knows what Europe would have looked like under a
| Carthaginian empire, but I'm rather confident it would be
| quite different. Especially given how a lot of Europes
| history post-Roman Empire revolved around attempts to
| reestablish and re-bust-up the Roman Empire.
| kibwen wrote:
| _> The Roman empire pretty much always contained Carthage
| territory._
|
| I suspect this is being downvoted because the Punic Wars took
| place hundreds of years before Rome became "The Roman
| Empire", both in the sense of having a literal emperor and
| also in the sense of being associated with the huge swathes
| of the Mediterranean that we tend to think of when we think
| of the empire's boundaries. It's just a different period of
| history. Not only did Rome not control any bits of Africa at
| this point, it didn't even control Sicily, which is what the
| First Punic War was about:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Punic_War
| speedchess wrote:
| > Carthage was much more powerful than Rome was
|
| No it wasn't. The roman republic won the 1st punic war. The
| carthaginian empire was older for sure but not much more
| powerful.
|
| > and Rome really had no business thinking it could have won
| either of those wars.
|
| Rome was the rising and expanding power. Carthage was an old
| has-been. Rome had every right to think it would prevail. Hence
| why Rome started the first punic wars.
|
| > and only survived by outright refusing to give up, and then
| somehow pulling it out of the bag at a key moment.
|
| It's like you gleaned your information from sensationalizing
| documentaries or a kid's book.
|
| > Rome could have very easily failed and become a Carthaginian
| vassal state.
|
| The odds of carthage invading and holding rome is 0.
|
| > There would have been no Roman Empire
|
| So western europe could have skipped the dark ages and gotten
| access to the ancient greek culture ( which is the foundation
| of european civilization ) sooner?
|
| > and the history of Europe would have been a continent
| dominated by a North African empire.
|
| Assuming that carthage could have held rome or made any
| progress against the huns, germanic or slavic tribes up north.
| If anything, the downfall of rome would have precipitated the
| rise of northern europe which dominates europe today.
| AmericanChopper wrote:
| Rome didn't even have a navy when it started the first war
| with Carthage, who were the dominant naval power of the
| Mediterranean at the time. During the first war Rome had the
| navies that it managed to build wiped out more than once
| before the Battle of the Aegates, which it probably wouldn't
| have been able to rebuild from if it had lost. They'd been
| fighting a losing war for nearly 30 years at that point.
|
| Rome also lost every major engagement in the second Punic war
| prior to Scipio's campaign through Iberia and North Africa,
| which very nearly never happened at all. Cannae was probably
| the most comprehensive military defeat ever at the time, and
| is still one of the most famous routs in history.
|
| It is possible that Rome could have survived if it lost
| either of those wars, but it certainly wouldn't have risen to
| be the most dominant empire in European history. Rome could
| have very easily fallen after Cannae if Hannibal had been
| reinforced, which he very nearly was.
|
| Speculation about what would have happened to Europe without
| the Roman Empire is just that, and I'm not trying to say it's
| a good or bad thing, it's just fascinating to think how close
| it came to being something completely different during that
| part of the republic era.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "Rome was the rising and expanding power. Carthage was an old
| has-been. "
|
| This sounds like "reading history with a benefit of
| hindsight". Rising powers may, in fact, well lose their
| challenge against the old has-beens. Germany and Japan in the
| 20th century were those rising and expanding powers, but
| ultimately reaped catastrophic defeats.
|
| Rome survived and won mostly due to their enormous capability
| to reconstitute their forces after major losses. That was an
| untypical capability in the premodern world, where a single
| battle gone wrong (e.g. Gaugamela) could topple an entire
| empire.
|
| But major losses they did have and the fact that they could
| still hold after Cannae was a bit of a miracle. They even
| recruited slaves into the army, a feat that could have easily
| backfired against the weakened Roman elite.
| analog31 wrote:
| Oops, missed that. Too late to delete.
| Etheryte wrote:
| It's written right under the lead image, it is bronze.
| jaynetics wrote:
| Quite a few of these rams have been found. It seems the design of
| the front, with three horizontal edges, remained almost unchanged
| for centuries.
|
| Wikipedia [1] has this to say about the rationale:
|
| > The blunt edge of the ram and the patterned protrusion were
| intended to break open the seams of the target ship while at the
| same time dispersing the force of impact on the attacking ship to
| prevent the ram from twisting off and damaging the attacking
| ship. It was also less likely to become stuck in the hull of its
| target.
|
| [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_ram
| Luc wrote:
| Surprisingly small!
|
| More pictures:
| https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=910340217792618&set=pcb....
|
| It's only about half a meter wide by about 1 meter long (Euro-
| pallets measure 80 x 120 cm). From reading Asterix & Obelix
| albums I'd have expected something more substantial.
| hendler wrote:
| Peaches 4 hours ago Maybe try posting a
| picture of the darned thing in use? RN it's a pile of coral.
| Yellowfoot 3 hours ago
| Unfortunately, all contemporaneous photographs of the item in use
| were lost during the burning of the Library of Alexandria a few
| centuries later.
| Log_out_ wrote:
| one may be part of your car or house right. after all metal
| artifacts were continously recycled throughout history .
| takinola wrote:
| If you would like to learn more about the Punic Wars,
| Oversimplified has a very, very good (and humorous) explainer
| video
|
| https://youtu.be/yRmOWcWdQAo?si=6FNtH2zqJ9XAMh3g
| ccity88 wrote:
| I would thoroughly recommend the Fall of Civilizations podcast
| episode on the ancient Phonecians. It goes into detail about life
| in Phonecian society, particularly Carthage, and its rivalry with
| Rome and ultimately the Punic wars. It's quite long, but well
| worth it if you want a broad picture of how life was like in that
| period.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dbdVhVSat8
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(page generated 2024-08-31 23:01 UTC)