[HN Gopher] Hawai'i-Issued Real IDs Can Be Added to Apple Wallet...
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Hawai'i-Issued Real IDs Can Be Added to Apple Wallet Beginning
August 28
Author : srockets
Score : 50 points
Date : 2024-08-29 20:42 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (hidot.hawaii.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (hidot.hawaii.gov)
| nickzelei wrote:
| Great to see this starting to spread. I don't live in Hawaii, but
| I am envious of those that live there that can now use this
| feature.
|
| I live in California and have been wanting this for a while now.
| I just recently found out that California has a limited public
| rollout from last year [1], but it does _not_ have Apple Wallet
| support, yet anyways.
|
| Nice job Hawaii!
|
| [1]: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/ca-dmv-wallet/
| jer0me wrote:
| They just launched Google Wallet support and people have found
| marketing pages for an imminent Apple Wallet launch.
| rookie wrote:
| Driver's licenses and state IDs in Apple Wallet are coming soon
| to California
|
| https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/08/drivers-licenses-and-...
| kstrauser wrote:
| Also Californian, and I envy Hawaii this. I've had the CA DMV
| Wallet app installed since its launch. Every single time I open
| it,
|
| 1. It tells me I need to refresh my license. I click the
| button.
|
| 2. It tells me I need to log into the DMV website. I grit my
| teeth and log in.
|
| 3. It tells me my password has expired and I need to update it
| because no one there has read the NIST guidelines. I snarl and
| update it.
|
| 4. I get an error message that the system is temporarily
| unavailable or something and my password can't be updated, so I
| can't log in, so I can't refresh my ID, so I can't use the app
| at all.
|
| At this point I only keep testing it out of sheer
| bullheadedness and a high pain tolerance.
| curioussavage wrote:
| Same here in Utah. We had crazies screaming about mark of the
| beast when digital ID first came up. They finally started it
| and it's only through some garbage app. Probably someone
| connected or whatever.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| I was surprised to get an alert months ago that Georgia was
| participating. Added my driving license to Apple Wallet ... and
| had zero opportunity to use it from there.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| You can also currently add your ID into Google Wallet if you live
| in: AZ, CA, CO, GA, or MD
| samoyy wrote:
| "(include link to how to video here)"
| modeless wrote:
| California licenses launched in Google Wallet just recently. I
| added mine last week. The thing I found interesting is that the
| instructions emphasized that you are not supposed to have to hand
| your phone to anyone. The license is checked wirelessly via
| Bluetooth. I'm certain people checking digital IDs are going to
| ask for your phone anyway though...
| vlovich123 wrote:
| The hope when I was on the standard body was that norms would
| shift as technology enabled it to be shifted. That's also the
| reason the ID can contain multiple records that attest various
| proofs while preserving privacy (eg a store age check for
| restricted items or bar age check wouldn't get anything other
| than your photo and a statement that you're over a certain age
| without revealing your name, birthday, etc)
| klabb3 wrote:
| In a physical context this needs a photo to be included in
| the proof too, right? So the instructions for the verifier
| includes matching the face with the actual person.
| modeless wrote:
| I'm glad that the instructions make a big deal about it.
| Hopefully the systems that scan the IDs also instruct the
| users not to ask for the phones.
| mazsa wrote:
| https://github.com/microsoft/uprove-node-
| reference/blob/main...
| rhinoceraptor wrote:
| Privacy is one nice benefit of the US Passport card, it
| doesn't have your address. Another big one is you can self-ID
| your gender so you can have a correct ID if your state makes
| it difficult or impossible to get a corrected driver's
| license.
| imroot wrote:
| Kentucky was in the launch release from apple[0], but, still have
| no formal plans on when they're launching the ability to do so.
|
| -- 0: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-
| first...
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| Can someone tell me why Apple and Google would want to provide
| this feature to people? How do they benefit?
| tyre wrote:
| Building things people want?
|
| For Apple it all contributes to selling hardware. For google,
| they make money from phone manufacturers installing the google
| suite by default (afaik), usage of Google, and data collected.
| croddin wrote:
| It gets people to not need to carry their wallet anymore so
| they will use apple/google pay instead of physical cards.
| vel0city wrote:
| Further adoption of just using your phone in replacement of
| your whole wallet.
|
| Right now when I need to carry my ID I still just end up
| carrying my wallet. The wallet full of cards not tied to Google
| Wallet. When I buy things with the Google Wallet tap to pay I
| imagine they're getting some amount of metadata about that
| transaction.
|
| Also, its yet another feature for Google to have over Apple, or
| vice-versa. If one side gets it, the other will probably want
| to match the feature.
| eblume wrote:
| I'm afraid it's staring right at you, in the name of the app:
| "Wallet". They want to replace your wallet. It's not enough for
| them to be in every person's pocket; they need the rest of the
| pockets to be empty, as well.
|
| I'm being hyperbolic, but I worry _not by much_.
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| I think I agree with your comment the most, even though other
| comments did provide useful information.
|
| I still think too many people suffer from the "Google, Apple,
| etc" want to do this because they are altruistic.
|
| The only digital ID, wallet, etc I would want to use would be
| open source and non proprietary. Someone more intelligent
| than I could describe it more technically but I'm talking
| about a digital wallet that's the equivalent of SMS or
| ethernet. Like a technical standard, not a corporate product.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Per Apple's docs[0],
|
| > Transmission of identity data to the identity reader
| follows the ISO/IEC 18013-5 standard, which provides for
| multiple security mechanisms available that are able to
| detect, deter and mitigate security risks. These consist of
| identity data integrity and antiforgery, device binding,
| informed consent, and user data confidentiality over radio
| links.
|
| Wish granted.
|
| [0]https://support.apple.com/guide/security/ids-in-apple-
| wallet...
| N_A_T_E wrote:
| Aside from the data collection aspect, they seem to like adding
| features to their phone offerings so customers stay engaged and
| in Apple's case buy more products. In Google's case, it's all a
| big funnel to search.
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| Are you sure Apple and Google don't just want to be nice
| Nate? lol
| modeless wrote:
| They are working toward phones replacing physical wallets
| entirely. If your phone reduces the number of things you have
| to carry, that makes it more useful to you and therefore a
| better product.
|
| Of course there's no chance I would stop carrying my license
| anytime soon. Maybe in 20 years everything will be ready for
| that to happen.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I go running with nothing but clothes, shoes, my Apple watch,
| and airpods. It's awfully nice to have the option to stop by
| the corner store afterward to grab a cool drink without
| needing my wallet. It would be similarly nice if I could use
| the same setup to stop for a glass of wine at the winery
| where I turn around and come home. (Bonus points that I can
| hail an Uber because I don't want to run home after drinking
| wine.)
|
| I'm unlikely to stop carrying a wallet anytime soon. It's a
| welcome addition to have an extra form of ID with me in case
| my wallet was lost or stolen though.
| perihelions wrote:
| Another layer to the moat that future hardware startups would
| have to overcome just to get their foot in the door.
| "Commoditize your complement".
| gringoDan wrote:
| Apple gets 15 basis points for purchases made through Apple
| Pay. If you don't carry a physical wallet/credit cards, that's
| a huge additional revenue stream they capture.
|
| I don't believe Google has the pricing power to demand a cut of
| payments (yet), but they need to offer this to keep up with
| Apple.
| throwaway240829 wrote:
| You know how some companies require a SMS capable phone number
| to "prove" you're a real person before they let you register an
| account? It's usually a measure to reduce spam, or prevent
| banned users from making new accounts.
|
| It's pretty hard for your every day user to get a new phone
| number at the moment. Dedicated spammers can still get around
| it though.
|
| But imagine requiring every user to provide their government
| issued ID on sign up! You instantly know they're a real person,
| their age, their gender, their demographics!
|
| Oh yeah, and it makes banning / unpersoning people really easy
| too. The government can distribute a list of "wanted
| individuals", and they won't be able to use online services!
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| I wouldn't participate. 80% of Americans would. I'll just eat
| tree bark and grass.
| urbandw311er wrote:
| Great - even more critical things to not have access to when my
| battery dies!
| vehemenz wrote:
| I mean, as it stands a physical ID is one more critical thing
| besides your phone that you have to bring to the store.
| vxxzy wrote:
| Have this in Maryland. Local sheriff's office won't accept it.
| Bars and Restaurants won't accept it either. Is this common in
| other states?
| throwaway240829 wrote:
| > ... digital driver's licenses and state identification cards
| are currently accepted at ... Apple Stores in the U.S. and in
| select apps that require identity or age verification.
|
| Delightful.
|
| It's only a few years until anonymity on the internet will be a
| thing of the past. Every account will be tied to your government
| issued ID card.
|
| In the mean time, enjoy the novelty of using bluetooth to prove
| your age to the bartender.
| williamcotton wrote:
| Anonymity isn't going anywhere, nor should it be banned.
|
| Some of us, myself included, would prefer communicating with
| people who use their own identity so they can be held
| accountable for their actions.
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| It's funny. I switched back to using Bluetooth exclusively in
| my car instead of Android Auto because the latter constantly
| pauses functionality when I'm driving for "safety pauses". So I
| literally can't change the song on.
|
| All I need is the technology, I don't want the product. The
| product intrudes on my life and personal decisions. Same with
| this ID/Wallet thing. I want the technology. I don't want the
| product.
| marssaxman wrote:
| Of course I will never want to do this, but I wonder how many
| years it will take before people start trying to make me.
| itake wrote:
| I've lost my wallet more times than I've lost my phone. Sign me
| up!
| breck wrote:
| I live in Hawai'i and have a Hawai'i driver's license. I don't
| own a phone, so this isn't relevant to me, but think it's cool,
| and happy for those who want it.
|
| Also, for other HN readers from Hawai'i, check out the first ever
| Honolulu Tech Week happening next month:
| https://www.honolulutechweek.com/
| alexchantavy wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, this makes me happy as someone from there
| swozey wrote:
| I do some bartending and I'm really curious whats going to happen
| with digital wallets, on the ID and payment end. I think they're
| amazing and would love to not worry about losing plastic but we
| aren't there yet. Lots of POS systems need to be upgraded and
| that is not something bars are looking to spend money on.
|
| I have 21yos come in all the time nowadays without a
| wallet/license/debit cards expecting to use digitalID and
| ApplePay for literally everything in their lives.
|
| We reluctantly take Apple Pay now, the reluctance is it's not
| like opening a normal tab. The card number is rolling so you have
| to give give me a card first to even open a tab or else I have to
| trust you're "Jon at Seat 3 Who Will Pay Me Later", because I
| can't ring you out without grabbing your phone and shoving it at
| my POS right when you're paying out. Also I have to have you
| unlock your phone and bring it over to my POS and hope it doesn't
| lock by the time I scan it. And if its busy and you want to Apple
| Pay you're a nightmare.
|
| I flew to Vegas last year with only a digital ID and paper temp,
| lost mine right before flight. I actually don't think I had any
| problems other than being brought aside to be searched at each
| airport since I was an "Exception" with my temp license but I
| know places for sure won't accept a digital ID yet for drinks.
|
| Retail and a lot of places just aren't there with the tech yet.
|
| Also.. will there really be an era where nobody can use fake IDs?
| They're kinda fun to catch..
| kstrauser wrote:
| Regarding running a tab:
|
| When I use Apple Pay at a gas pump, it first creates a
| temporary charge for more than I'm likely to spend. When I'm
| done pumping, it charges the actual amount and removes the
| reservation. I wonder if a bar tab could eventually work like
| that, where you temporarily hold $50 or whatever and then
| reconcile it when I close my tab. As a bonus, you'd never have
| someone forget and leave there credit card there again.
| cpfohl wrote:
| > Digital driver's licenses cannot be used as proof of name and
| address to fulfill the lawful order of a police officer.
|
| This drives me nuts...a police officer can look up my license if
| I offer my name and address. Why do I need to carry an easily
| lost piece of plastic and paper to prove I'm me? It's harder to
| forge a record on the DMV db than my license...
|
| This is a genuine question, if anyone knows the reasoning behind
| this I'd be thrilled.
| kstrauser wrote:
| Your average person couldn't forge either one. The CA license
| has a lot of anti-forgery features that I'm sure _could_ be
| worked around, but not by anyone who isn 't premeditating a
| whole lot of crime.
|
| I can understand a reasonable wish from police departments to
| verify someone's identity even if they're in a place with bad
| cell coverage, or during a thunderstorm, or when the radio's
| busted. An ID card is pretty strong evidence of your real ID
| that doesn't require power or a radio connection or a computer.
| A cop can just look at it and say, no, that's clearly your
| older brother.
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| The world changed so fast. It was the norm when I went to
| college in the mid 00's to forge your birthday on your
| drivers license to get into bars. Kids will have a less
| interesting and unpredictable future I fear.
| kstrauser wrote:
| _I would never have done that!_
|
| Having spent a lot of time around today's kids,
| particularly the ones who grew up in my house, I have the
| utmost faith in their ability to create new kinds of
| mischief. They'll be alright.
| jrockway wrote:
| I would think "replay attack" works in a lot of cases now.
| Find someone over 21, get their barcode on the back of the
| license, sticker that over yours. For bars that just scan
| and get yes/no, you're in. No need to modify the face of
| the license, which nobody but the TSA seems to look at. (I
| buy sudafed every month... the pharmacy never checks that I
| look like the ID; just that the barcode scans.)
|
| A place I used to work had 3D badges, so that your face
| kind of appeared to be sticking out as you inspected the
| badges. (Lenticular lenses.) I thought this was a neat
| security feature, so I color printed a copy of my badge and
| just put it in my badge holder in front of the actual badge
| to see if anyone would notice mine wasn't 3D. They did not
| notice, never in 5 years.
| ghaff wrote:
| A big part of the answer is probably tradition.
|
| But, in general, the further you get from physical artifacts
| and in-person authentication, the easier it gets to fabricate.
| I was pretty annoyed earlier this year when I had to show up at
| a brokerage office for something that was done over email and
| phone during the pandemic. But I also sorta understand the
| preference.
|
| There's definitely a tradeoff involved with doing everything
| online vs. physically showing up in an office.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Oregon doesn't even have this on the radar anywhere, and I'm
| kinda bummed. Probably still carry my wallet with me for the
| indefinite future, but having an alternate option would be nice.
|
| I'd be up for a mobile passport, too. Already has a chip anyway
| that gets read, so what's the difference? And on the plus side
| that would be something you wouldn't accidentally forget in the
| hotel safe.
|
| What I'd want to establish, however, is what the backup plan
| looks like if your phone gets lost/stolen/destroyed. How quickly
| can I bet up and running on a replacement device, and what hoops
| will I have to jump through to get it working again?
| ghaff wrote:
| I expect that, if this becomes the norm, you're basically in a
| world of hurt if your phone gets stolen, lost, broken, etc. Bad
| things obviously can already happen if your backpack gets
| lifted etc. But I'm personally already very nervous about tying
| everything to my phone. I do still carry a wallet, albeit a
| small front-pocket one with just a little cash and some
| important cards.
|
| But, then, I don't really like not to have a paper map of some
| sort when hiking in unfamiliar locations either.
| perihelions wrote:
| I think this is disturbing and should be made illegal--to tie a
| government service to a single corporate provider in this way. I
| don't care how much money Apple paid to develop this, or how
| _convenient_ they made it for the state of Hawaii to adopt their
| ready-made product, or how _inconvenient_ it would be to a do
| this in an platform-agnostic way equitable to all of their
| residents. This is simply a monopolistic abuse of government
| services, and of the public.
|
| Any such service should be free and open to many providers, or
| not available at all. No fast-lanes for Apple customers. This is
| not how a fair, equitable public service should work.
|
| - _" Requires iPhone 8 or later with iOS 16.5 or later, Apple
| Watch Series 4 or later with WatchOS 9.5 or later"_
| (hidot.hawaii.gov)
|
| (I've browsed around this website and there doesn't appear to be
| any other option equivalent to this one).
| kstrauser wrote:
| The search term you're googling for is "ISO/IEC 18013-5", which
| explains how Apple, Google, and anyone else who wants to
| implement the standard can do this. Of course, then you'd need
| to go through a fairly massive audit for the local government
| to trust that you're not going to immediately upload all your
| users' PII to the dark web. I'd be shocked if Apple and Google
| _weren 't_ the first ones to successfully complete that part.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I am very skeptical of digital IDs and digitization in general. I
| have a feeling it will lead to violation of privacy and an
| increase in government surveillance and control. Why do people
| welcome this?
| neilv wrote:
| Why is this speaking of iPhone specifically, rather than some
| open standard?
| spike021 wrote:
| I installed the official App for California a while back but the
| kicker was they said you can't use it for anything. You still
| need a physical driver license for buying alcohol, if a police
| officer needs to see it.
|
| Can't remember if they're even usable for domestic travel yet.
| itsdrewmiller wrote:
| They are legal but most airports don't actually accept them.
| Gotta start somewhere though!
| cj wrote:
| How would that work?
|
| You get pulled over, and you'd hand your unlocked phone with
| your license to the police officer?
|
| Hopefully Apple is smart enough to make the license accessible
| without unlocking the phone. Or some kind of "ID Mode"
|
| Edit:
|
| > To present an ID in Apple Wallet, residents can simply hold
| their iPhone or Apple Watch near a reader. A resident's device
| will then display what information is being requested. The
| requested information is released from a device only after the
| resident authorizes the release with Face ID or Touch ID. Since
| the information is shared digitally, residents do not need to
| hand over their iPhone or Apple Watch to present an ID in Apple
| Wallet.
| ein0p wrote:
| Does anyone have a handle on how we're getting screwed by RealID?
| The state governments are pushing it surprisingly strongly and
| without really explaining what is wrong with the IDs we already
| have.
| kstrauser wrote:
| When I lived in a state without REAL ID, I showed up at the DMV
| with a couple of easily forged papers and walked out with a
| drivers license. Did you know there's not actually an official
| government standard for a christening document, and you could
| make one at home on a laser printer if you wanted to? Getting a
| REAL ID was the first time I ever felt like I'd truly proved my
| identity to a reasonable standard.
|
| I'm sure some states without REAL ID already make it hard to
| get a license. That wasn't my experience though. Missouri and
| Nebraska were more like, "oh, you've got a letter from your
| neighbor vouching that you're really Rusty Shackleford? Here
| you go, Mr. Shackleford!"
|
| I think states and the feds have a legitimate non-nefarious
| interest in proving a person's identity under the appropriate
| circumstances.
| srockets wrote:
| [delayed]
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(page generated 2024-08-29 23:00 UTC)