[HN Gopher] Apple Approves iDOS Emulator
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Apple Approves iDOS Emulator
        
       Author : gattilorenz
       Score  : 46 points
       Date   : 2024-08-25 16:11 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | accrual wrote:
       | Given that another Verge article discusses running XP on an iPad
       | using this tool, I wonder if it emulates enough PC hardware that
       | one could run OpenBSD or Debian on it. That would be pretty cool
       | paired with a Bluetooth keyboard!
       | 
       | https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/22/24200536/windows-xp-ipad-...
        
         | alargemoose wrote:
         | The Emulator in that article, UTM SE, is a a GUI for QEMU. It's
         | also a MacOS app. I can confirm the "SE" version on iOS can run
         | Linux, though I've not tried BSD.
         | 
         | UTM's site also has a handful of pre-built images of various
         | operating systems to make it easy to setup a VM to mess around
         | with https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/
        
       | mrkramer wrote:
       | I thought emulator is free....but it costs $0.99. Is that even
       | legal? Charging for emulating software that is not your.
        
         | deafpolygon wrote:
         | You can charge for an emulator as a service for building and
         | packaging it on the App Store (assuming you have permission
         | somehow) or as long as you can definitively prove that you
         | built it via some "clean room design" - that will protect you
         | from legal issues should anyone decide to litigate you for
         | stealing copyrighted code. Backward engineering something (an
         | emulator) to run software (a game) is not illegal, as long as
         | said software doesn't run copyrighted code. This is how WINE
         | exists, after all. Yes, I know WINE is not an emulator. It's a
         | compatibility layer.
         | 
         | Will anyone litigate you for a DOS emulator at this point?
         | Likely not.
        
           | mrkramer wrote:
           | >You can charge for an emulator as a service for building and
           | packaging it on the App Store (assuming you have permission
           | somehow) or as long as you can definitively prove that you
           | built it via some "clean room design" - that will protect you
           | from legal issues should anyone decide to litigate you for
           | stealing copyrighted code.
           | 
           | Yea, I get it....emulating is essentially mimicking but if
           | you mimic whole bunch of specific features, APIs or whatever,
           | it is still tricky legally. Because if you mimic the whole
           | thing, then you somewhat copied the complete architectural
           | design of hardware/software system that you are emulating.
           | 
           | For example I hear often about Nintendo emulators but if
           | emulator devs decide to sell emulators, couldn't Nintendo sue
           | emulator devs because Nintendo emulators are creating
           | parallel market for Nintendo devices and therefore leaving
           | Nintendo completely out of picture.
        
             | deafpolygon wrote:
             | Right, it's legally OK to backward engineer something.
             | There is no copyright or legal protections on the 'how'.
             | 
             | > but if you mimic whole bunch of specific features, APIs
             | or whatever, it is still tricky legally.
             | 
             | If you mimic an API, as long as you can prove you didn't
             | copy any of the original code or engineering - you are in
             | the clear.
             | 
             | > because Nintendo emulators are creating parallel market
             | for Nintendo devices
             | 
             | No, they are not. The parallel market only pertains to
             | games (or specifically, the creative work that covers the
             | IP for the game).
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | It's about the line between what gets protected by patents
             | and what gets protected by copyright. The rule is basically
             | patents protect function, copyright doesn't.
             | 
             | If the specific design of a windshield wiper blade was
             | protected by copyright then its patent would be pointless.
             | Therefore patents essentially invalidate copyright where
             | they apply. People often hate software patents, but a 20
             | year window expires on anything built before 2004.
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | Copyright is about implementations, not architectural
             | designs. That would be the domain of patents, and these
             | have much stronger limits than copyright.
             | 
             | Most notably, you need to actively apply for them, and they
             | expire much sooner than copyright. Besides that, software
             | is not patentable in all jurisdictions.
        
             | dbsmith83 wrote:
             | Look into Bleem. It was sued, but it won. Though the legal
             | costs did hurt the company, it reaffirmed that emulators
             | are legal and you can sell them. In fact, there currently
             | are nintendo emulators for sale to this day (3dSen)
        
             | kmeisthax wrote:
             | No. See Sony v. Connectix or Google v. Oracle if you want
             | to know more, but basically, it is fair use to copy
             | interface features such as APIs for the purpose of
             | interoperability or developer convenience.
             | 
             | Nintendo's counterargument to those cases has to do with
             | DMCA 1201, an extremely broadly drafted law that has to do
             | with copy protection. A lot of console emulators have to
             | implement decryption functions in the emulator because
             | people are bringing in ROM images or ISO dumps that are
             | encrypted. Console emulation has a habit of just grabbing
             | whatever format the piracy scene is using and going from
             | there, which is a bad idea and what enables Nintendo to,
             | say, sue the shit out of Yuzu.
             | 
             | At the same time, however, this isn't a critical flaw that
             | makes all emulation illegal. Yuzu was also extremely
             | sketchy in ways that let Nintendo connect the dots and say
             | "this is infringement". There are plenty of emulators out
             | there written by people who have good copyright hygiene
             | that don't have this problem. e.g. WINE, Ruffle, PCem,
             | DOSBox, etc. And none of this has to do with whether or not
             | the emulator is being sold for money, is licensed as a Free
             | Software project, developed by a community, etc.
        
       | charliebwrites wrote:
       | How performant is this without JIT support?
       | 
       | I tried using UTM on my iPad to emulate Ubuntu and Kali Linux and
       | it was so slow and broken I gave up
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | You need to jailbreak the ipad and the path you will tread will
         | be a bit unsupported, but its possible.
         | 
         | https://worthdoingbadly.com/hv/
        
           | charliebwrites wrote:
           | Unfortunately I'm not in a spot where it makes sense to
           | Jailbreak my iPad
           | 
           | If I build the project from scratch in XCode and put it on my
           | iPad from there will JIT work?
        
         | jamesy0ung wrote:
         | I've got an M2 iPad Pro, running 16.3.1 and jailbroken with UTM
         | HV. It's very fast, about 96% of the native speed, however you
         | can only use up to 5 and a bit gigabytes of ram before getting
         | terminated. The linux experience isn't too great either. It
         | tends to be quite buggy and crashes a lot, I've tested Ubuntu
         | 24.04 and Fedora 40. Overall, it's cool but too buggy for me to
         | use daily.
        
           | jansommer wrote:
           | You could consider zram and get 50%+ more ram by compressing
           | it. I use it on a 4gb ram surface go 2 and it works wonders.
           | Not even noticing it in games like Divinity: Original Sin
           | that requires at least 4gb.
        
         | Firehawke wrote:
         | It handled One Must Fall 2097, which needed a high-end 486 or
         | low-end Pentium, just fine. Wing Commander 1 and 2 should be
         | fine. WC3 I'm not entirely sure about, though.
        
       | crims0n wrote:
       | Oh nice, the iPad Pro 12.9 inch has a 4:3 aspect ratio if I
       | recall correctly, should make for a decent DOSBox screen.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-08-25 23:01 UTC)