[HN Gopher] Strandbeest
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Strandbeest
Author : nicopappl
Score : 282 points
Date : 2024-08-25 13:06 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.strandbeest.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.strandbeest.com)
| frumenty wrote:
| Since the video on the site isn't working
| https://youtu.be/C97kMKwZ2-g?feature=shared
| anfractuosity wrote:
| Really love the idea of the strandbeest :)
|
| He also sells little miniature ones too -
| https://www.strandbeest.com/shop/animaris-ordis-parvus
| bensmoif wrote:
| Bought one of these miniature kits years ago and kept it on my
| desk at work and goddamn is it cool and fun and works great!
| Really encourage any model machine nerds to get one.
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| Oh those ones look much better than the one I brought off
| AliExpress years ago. Not to mention it was missing a bag of
| parts and they wanted me to send them a photo of the missing
| parts...
| layer8 wrote:
| The miniature in action:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9CENC972pY
| xnx wrote:
| Accidental strandbeest:
| https://www.tiktok.com/@ronygarcia15/video/74053667625453683...
| hinkley wrote:
| I need his heart. Please give it back.
| mhb wrote:
| OK I'll be the one. Not sure why these get so much love. Sure
| they're cool-looking untethered kites but all the nonsense about
| "creating new forms of life" - really?
| dyauspitr wrote:
| That's just interesting lore.
| mhb wrote:
| It's PR gobbledygook he made up to make these seem more
| interesting than the mechanical tumbleweeds that they are.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| I mean pasta is just boiled dough by that metric.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| I think as a programmer they fascinate me because they feel as
| simple and elegant as a boid algorithm and looks like life in a
| similar way but they also exist in the real world. It gives you
| the idea that you could build other similar simulated life like
| things.
| RodgerTheGreat wrote:
| It's partially euphemism, but there's also more substance to it
| than you may realize.
|
| The ratios in the Jansen linkages were originally developed
| through genetic algorithms in computer simulations. Jansen now
| builds multiple generations of machines at once and has them
| compete in various "survival" tasks on the beaches,
| prioritizing further development based on the success of each
| "mutation"; an ongoing human-assisted evolutionary process.
|
| The Strandbeest machines are also capable of much more
| sophisticated behavior than may be evident: they pressurize air
| using wind power and store it in bottles, which in turn run
| pneumatic "nervous systems" made from logic gates, oscillators,
| and flip-flops. As the machines have grown more sophisticated
| they've gained the ability to sense the waterline (with ground-
| trailing hoses that detect back-pressure from water) and avoid
| it, to anchor themselves to the ground when it gets too windy,
| to steer around simple obstacles, and so on.
|
| Strandbeest machines reproducing independently from humans
| would be a pipe-dream, but at the very least they should be
| understood as autonomous, biomimetic robots at the same time as
| they are sculptures.
| iterateoften wrote:
| I don't care either way about this conversation, just thought
| it was interesting, but what you described is essentially
| every engineered thing.
|
| A pocket watch has more complexity than what you are
| describing but isn't any closer to "artificial life" then any
| other engineered thing that takes and stores external power.
| uberman wrote:
| I hear what you are saying but remember, many people did
| not think a computer would ever pass the Turing test.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| The mechanisms of a pocket watch are specifically designed
| to avoid influence from the outside environment. A
| strandbeest has the added complexity of evolving to actual
| environments, which are pretty complex. The ability to
| survive is pretty life-like, even more than the ability to
| function.
| gedy wrote:
| Bear in mind he is an artist, and it's de rigueur to have some
| story or concept with what you make. I learned this the hard
| way when I used to do algorithmic art back in college, you
| can't just say what it is or how you made it.
| 1attice wrote:
| I came here to say this -- OP seems to be reacting not to the
| work itself, but to the framing. It reminds me of how my
| friends used to jump down my throat when I said 'AI' instead
| of 'Machine Learning' -- they had a point; 'Artificial
| Intelligence', as a coinage, is tendentiously animistic (just
| like Jensen's 'new forms of life'.)
|
| Yet, of course, that's exactly how we encounter LLMs! The
| whole _point_ of ChatGPT isn't to do a "mechanical learning"
| (whatever that might be,) it's to create an experience that
| is more reminiscent of talking to another human being. An
| 'intelligence', if you will, but artificial.
|
| At some point, we will need to tease out why engineering
| culture is so huffy about articulating its own goals; I have
| this mental image of a magician standing on stage, berating
| his audience for ever believing that rabbits could ever be
| made to come out of hats, all the while collecting a tidy sum
| for doing just that.
| neoberg wrote:
| It's lore. Superman is also cool-looking and the whole story
| around it just adds depth; no one thinks it's real.
| ramblerman wrote:
| I think its a cool exploration between art and engineering,
| with the end effect looking lifelike and emergent. It reminds
| me of the game of life.
|
| But yeah the peanut gallery with 30k in hn karma probably have
| something snarky to say about it.
| binwiederhier wrote:
| Relatedly, here's a 3D printed, mechanical version of it:
| https://youtu.be/nHqqCRVlUus?si=p_q78n_nKYZhykNt -- By Engineezy,
| great YouTube channel.
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| When you said 3D printed, I wanted expecting that scale. That
| was cool
| alwinaugustin wrote:
| Looks beautiful.
| throwaway920102 wrote:
| For anyone who wants to know more:
|
| This is an application of Jansen's linkage:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansen%27s_linkage
|
| There are other similar linkages but Jansen's is quite good.
|
| For anyone who doesn't have an idea why something like this
| matters or is inspiring beyond art, legged vehicles have many
| downsides but one big upside is that you can theoretically avoid
| the rubber/microplastic particulate emission associated with
| tires and wheeled vehicles if you can make legged vehicles as
| good as wheeled ones.
|
| Even an electric battery vehicle with an electric motor charged
| by a solar/wind/nuclear power plant still emits pure poison into
| the air and waterways through friction between tires and the
| road.
|
| Good alternatives would be biocompatible tires (Nitinol mesh
| tires like SMART Tire company's initial prototype that lacked the
| rubber coating) or legged vehicles.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| Wouldn't a legged vehicle still have that problem if it can
| achieve the same speeds and weights that regular cars go at?
|
| Scale up a human for example to the weight and speed of a car.
| Crazy powerful and big legs, big feet, big shoes. The rubber
| must hit the road either way and push down with a force to
| propel the weight of this car-heavy legged human at speeds of
| 100km/h. It would still wear rubber away just like tires do.
|
| Legged vehicles aren't a replacement for regular vehicles if
| tire particulates are your concern.
| necovek wrote:
| Couldn't you do away with rubber and shoes since for legs you
| don't need flat, smooth roads either (so metal legs of a
| multi-ton vehicle won't have anything to damage too bad).
|
| For comfort, you could have springs and air and hydraulic
| dampeners.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| The metal itself would damage the ground that is walked on
| though no?
| necovek wrote:
| Yes, but walking on rough terrain would still keep it a
| rough terrain.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Rough terrain with less and less purchase, until it just
| turns into a pile of dry dust / wet mud (depending on
| weather). A legged vehicle as heavy as a car would wear
| away stone, tear roots... I don't think there's any
| surface that could withstand heavy traffic, except maybe
| something ridiculous like a fast-growing woody grass.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| For some reason, I was imagining a machine with legs like
| a footstool. Any realistic machine like this would have
| large, wide feet. With proper suspension, the pressure
| might be low enough to not completely destroy the ground.
|
| Though, I'm struggling to see how this would be better
| than a wheeled vehicle: you've still got static friction
| between the feet and the ground... I guess maybe they're
| flexing less?
| necovek wrote:
| Yeah, large feet would reduce the pressure on the ground,
| though it would still suffer some effects for sure -- but
| the goal is to avoid rubber and microplastics, so metal
| feet it is :)
|
| Anyway, I agree that a wheeled vehicle is probably going
| to win on efficiency just the same, though wheels do
| require better roads than legs do (eg. common example is
| stairs).
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| A bicycle can do stairs just fine. They're tricky, but
| not much more than a similarly-steep hill would be.
| lucianbr wrote:
| > one big upside is that you can theoretically avoid the
| rubber/microplastic particulate emission associated with
| tires and wheeled vehicles if you can make legged
| vehicles as good as wheeled ones.
|
| How does keeping rough terrain rough help with that?
| necovek wrote:
| My implication is that you want rubber for nice
| asphalt/road surface to avoid damaging it -- for comfort,
| other suspension components can help out instead.
|
| If you don't care about preserving the terrain (which you
| can when it's rough to begin with), you can just go with
| large surface metal feet and you should not get any
| rubber/microplastics, though you will get metallic dust.
| fragmede wrote:
| > The rubber must hit the road
|
| if the wheels were metal and the roadway was also metal, but
| arranged into parallel small roadways, then we could avoid
| using rubber and not have the problem of rubber particulates.
| anamexis wrote:
| Seems like in that case, you could just use cogwheels and
| racks, and avoid the complexity of legs.
| ada1981 wrote:
| like, trains?
| anamexis wrote:
| Yes, specifically cog railways.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Metal particles are more reactive and toxic than rubber
| particles.
| user_7832 wrote:
| > It would still wear rubber away just like tires do.
|
| It's been a hot minute since I learnt rolling friction in
| high school physics but (iirc) a very interesting and
| unintuitive aspect of it is that there's always an
| opposing/slowing force on a (rubber) wheel. Only a slippping
| wheel will not experience a slowdown. Static friction is
| different from rolling friction, and (I _think_ ) can offer
| zero wear in ideal conditions - but rolling wear is always
| non-zero.
| immibis wrote:
| Yes indeed - Jansen's machines are applications of Jansen's
| linkage :)
| hinkley wrote:
| I feel like your choice of phrasing downplays the fact that the
| strandbeest is created by the guy the principle is named after.
| lucianbr wrote:
| It says these are made of plastic pipe. Doesn't the pipe wear
| down where it contacts (or even slides in the video) the
| ground, creating microplastics?
|
| Also, it already slides some of the time in the videos. Not
| sure what the advantage is over a simple slide dragged by a
| sail.
| jpk wrote:
| > legged vehicles have many downsides but one big upside is
| that you can theoretically avoid the rubber/microplastic
| particulate emission associated with tires and wheeled vehicles
| if you can make legged vehicles as good as wheeled ones.
|
| How do you square this idea with the fact that my running shoes
| wear out? I'm a legged vehicle, and it's clear that the soles
| of my shoes wear down over time and the lost mass of the rubber
| went somewhere.
|
| Whether legs or wheels, there are going to be contact patches
| that have to endure some quantity of sheering force when the
| vehicle is doing anything other than remaining stationary. It's
| this sheering force that grates the particulates away from
| tires, and I presume a legged vehicle would need a tire-like
| compound on the surfaces it uses to contact the road. So why
| would legs be different in this regard?
| burkaman wrote:
| You could wear wooden clogs or something. It would be
| uncomfortable but if you were a robot you wouldn't care. They
| would still wear out, but sawdust is less permanent than
| microplastics.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| That's a dumb reason. A reason for reasons sake.
|
| These matter because they are beautiful and make people happy.
| They're also appreciable technical achievements.
| monooso wrote:
| > For anyone who doesn't have an idea why something like this
| matters or is inspiring _beyond art_...
|
| (Emphasis mine)
|
| The OP acknowledges that these are beautiful, and then
| explains other reasons why this work may be interesting or
| important.
|
| There's nothing dumb in that.
| xg15 wrote:
| Isn't another advantage of legged vehicles being more
| applicable to uneven/unstable terrain? (Like in this case the
| constantly shifting water/mud/sand boundaries of a beach)
|
| If you wanted to build a similar contraption that is powered by
| wind but moves on wheels, I imagine there is a much larger
| chance of it getting stuck.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Sure, but on the other hand legs produce a LOT more
| force/weight per square inch, which can lead to them sinking
| more easily.
|
| Which is why what the military uses for unstable terrain is
| treads like you see on tanks. Same for construction equipment
| that operates on soft soil.
| xg15 wrote:
| Makes sense. I suppose the additional constraint here is
| "with minimal damage to the environment".
|
| Like, some caterpillar-type vehicle could move fine on that
| beach, but you'd definitely see the trace of its movement
| afterwards...
|
| So legs are not a useful movement mechanism for tanks, but
| they might be for delivery bots, etc.
|
| I also wonder about the energy expense. The strandbeests
| seem to be powered by nothing else than a number of sails
| and the movement mechanism has little enough resistance
| that the wind force is enough to pull the vehicle along.
|
| It _feels_ as if a caterpillar would have more resistance,
| though I don 't have the numbers. I guess you could in
| theory make a wind-powered caterpillar vehicle by using a
| turbine - but the vehicle would probably be slower, I.e.
| less efficient?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| You seem to posit that legged vehicles doing 100+ km/h for
| hundreds of thousands of kilometers do not have as much wear
| and tear as rubber tires do. What is that based on? And does it
| have the same or better friction / energy efficiency?
|
| (I know the answers, I'm just trying to provoke you into
| thinking about your comment)
| vulkd wrote:
| These are fantastic. Reminds me of the structures ("choruses"?)
| from "A Topiary" script by Shane Carruth (the same bloke who made
| Primer). The first act's "pattern-seeking" premise is great, too.
| I think anyone who enjoys films such as Aronofsky's Pi,
| Linklater, Kaufman, etc would enjoy at least skimming through the
| first act.
|
| - Script: https://indiegroundfilms.wordpress.com/wp-
| content/uploads/20...
|
| - Script Reviews:
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17338551-a-topiary
|
| - Trailer (Not sure if legit) showing the Strandbeest-like
| creatures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16vaQ9Tv8Lc
| jes5199 wrote:
| I love this script, it's a shame that it will probably never be
| a film. The philosophy question it implies - does science and
| technology have its own teleology, and if so is that good or
| evil - is one that fascinates me
|
| for anyone who doesn't know the history, Carruth shopped this
| script around for years before giving up on finding anyone to
| fund it. Eventually he gave up and made a different film. And
| then he was arrested on charges of domestic violence, and a
| second victim filed a restraining order against him. Since
| then, he hasn't been welcome in Hollywood. The rumor is that
| he's returned to his old career, software engineering, where
| it's easier to find work.
| edanm wrote:
| I wasn't aware a script existed! I've been waiting for years to
| see the movie, being a huge Primer fan, though I understand it
| probably won't get made.
| johnasmith wrote:
| The English translation of the (Dutch) "strandbeest" is "beach
| animal".
| jfengel wrote:
| English still uses the cognate "strand" to mean beach or
| riverside. The most famous is The Strand in London, along the
| Thames. It's a bit archaic sounding but is not too uncommon.
| gjm11 wrote:
| Likely familiar even if you haven't heard "strand" as such
| with that meaning: "stranded" (run aground on the beach).
|
| One place where you might possibly have heard "strand"
| meaning the beach: Lewis Carroll. "The Walrus and the
| Carpenter were walking on the strand: / They wept like
| anything to see / Such quantities of sand. / 'If this were
| only cleared away,' / They said, 'it would be grand.'"
| layer8 wrote:
| More like "beach beast". "Animal" is "dier".
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| The way I (L1-english) have thought usage went is: "beestje"
| (as in "Huisje, Boompje, Beestje") is informal for animal,
| but "dier" (as in PvdD*) is formal.
|
| So I guess I'd offer "beach critter"?
|
| * https://www.partyfortheanimals.com/en/organizations/partij-
| v...
| layer8 wrote:
| "Beest" is a wild animal, or a savage being. It's quite
| similar to English "beast". "Beestje" is a diminutive that
| is affectionately applied to animals. "Dier" is neutral
| (not formal) "animal".
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| TIL (VHIG?)
| toolslive wrote:
| There have been efforts to use a similar concept to clear out
| mine fields.
| shagie wrote:
| Similar in visual appearance, difference in design.
|
| https://medium.com/kickstarter/the-explosion-artist-5db66a99...
|
| > Aside from these functional benefits, Mine Kafon has an
| undeniable aesthetic beauty. The tumbling dandelion-like
| structure recalls Dutch sculptor Theo Jansen's Strandbeests,
| similarly fashioned from repurposed industrial materials and
| eerily imbued with life by the wind. Hassani's work even caught
| the eye of MoMA's Senior Curator of Design, Paola Antonelli,
| who included Mine Kafon in the museum's 2014 Design and
| Violence show. More exhibitions around the world followed, and
| the project became something of a viral sensation, with the
| elegance of the idea -- and Hassani's inspiring story --
| propelling the pressing issue of landmines through social media
| and beyond.
|
| > Mine Kafon also garnered attention from the Dutch Ministry of
| Defense, which evaluated the design's effectiveness in their
| test minefields, ultimately determining that the project was
| not practical for operational use but still valuable as a tool
| for raising awareness.
|
| ---
|
| It has some issues with following topological contours and one
| not getting blown up isn't a "this area is clear" (or even a
| deterministic "this path through this area is clear"). One
| getting blown up means it found one mine (possible some more if
| its durable) ... and then you need to clean up the scrap, but
| this returns to the "you don't have a positive signal of this
| area is completely free from mines."
| rafram wrote:
| There is (or was as of recently) a little exhibit on these at the
| Jewish Museum in NYC of all places. It's an incredibly cool
| project.
| mosselman wrote:
| I love the Strandbeesten. I've never seen them in real life, but
| I just love the philosophy and the videos.
|
| We have a fossil of one of them that we purchased from the artist
| which is always a good conversation piece when we have guests.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| I love simulation theory because it keeps me from going insane
| when I think of something randomly and it's on the front page of
| HN the next day (for the first time in 7 months).
|
| Anyway these would be cool if they could actually move humans.
| Imagine crossing a vast desert with some friends on one of these
| bad boys.
| Galaxeblaffer wrote:
| https://youtu.be/rqs9Awx5zgQ?si=Ojawx-oejvcRkopC, will probably
| not cross a dessert, but pretty cool.
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| On the subject of coincidences, I went to order one of the
| Strandbeest mini sets from this very website last week.
|
| Unfortunately their virtual store is closed for a couple weeks
| more. I was prepared to place an order and wait, but on the
| website checkout page there was a random person's name as if I
| was checking out someone else's order. It's probably an
| innocent mistake, like a hard coded default value or something.
|
| I like to support artists directly, and it was a bit
| disappointing that there was so much friction with the buying
| process.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Did you not get the popup?
|
| > _During the months of July and August you cannot place
| orders in our webshop. ... Theo Jansen and his team wish you
| a nice summer._
| saaaaaam wrote:
| Art takes time.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'm sure they could, but they'd need a different design to
| carry the extra load; at the moment it only carries its own
| lightweight construction.
|
| That said, for personal transport in windy / flat conditions, a
| kart with a parachute kite works as well, you see those on the
| beach on occasion too.
| tpurves wrote:
| Now I am imagining a mars rover that works like one of these.
| Stampeding over the rocky landscape, powered by martian wind.
| layer8 wrote:
| Given that Mars' atmosphere density is only about one percent
| of Earth's, that seems unlikely.
| bastawhiz wrote:
| I remember watching videos about these maybe two decades ago on
| MSN TV (an early precursor to video streaming services)
| Animats wrote:
| Oh, that guy is still at it and has made progress. There's
| pneumatic logic now and the new model can reverse direction.
| arialdomartini wrote:
| Beautiful video with an update on the evolutionary development
| (up to 2021)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C97kMKwZ2-g
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| I can remember first seeing these in Theo's 2007 Ted Talk. I must
| have drawn than linkage about 10,000 times over the next few
| years. I always had big dreams of raiding dad's plumbing supplies
| to make a version of one.
| Tepix wrote:
| In the video there clearly is a line being pulled from the right.
| Was the wind insufficient that day? It seems like cheating.
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