[HN Gopher] Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport
___________________________________________________________________
Telegram founder Pavel Durov arrested at French airport
Author : NoxiousPluK
Score : 384 points
Date : 2024-08-24 20:46 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| greatgib wrote:
| I did not see the info anywhere else, but it was just broadcasted
| by the main French tv channel. Pavel Durov, the Telegram founder
| was just arrested out of his airplane in the Bourget airport in
| France near Paris.
|
| There is no info about why exactly he was arrested but it looks
| like that French police had a warrant for him.
|
| But it looks like it is because that he is accused of being an
| accessory of a lot of things like traffic, drugs,
| pedopornography, anything bad you can image because he would not
| have done anything to combat that on Telegram.
|
| If it is real, it would really be the same kind of political
| crime abuse on an individual of the same level as what happened
| to Julian Assange.
|
| I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would probably
| like very much to use that to blackmail him to add backdoors to
| telegram. So sad.
| Glacia wrote:
| >I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would
| probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add
| backdoors to telegram
|
| Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for
| Russian government?
| greatgib wrote:
| Since forever I stay suspicious but so far Telegram as an
| impeccable track record. Never there was a single instance of
| case where there would be even a suspicion of proof that
| insider knowledge of conversations was accessed/used.
|
| Also, it is clear that Durov is a dissident and personally
| experienced and run away of the dictatorial state. So I think
| that it is probably one of the tech personality that I trust
| the most in the world.
| ceinewydd wrote:
| https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21
|
| I'm not sure that counts as an impeccable track record.
| hamilyon2 wrote:
| The latest evidence of wide cooperation of telegram and
| Russian officials:
| https://roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/shutdown-v-baymake/
| codedokode wrote:
| The article doesn't contain the evidence though; it
| claims that someone changed access to private for a
| Telegram group that covered the protests. However, as the
| article says, it could be done not only by Telegram, but
| by one of the administrators.
| Glacia wrote:
| Except there were multiple different groups that
| magically happen to go private at the same time.
|
| I'm not even going to mention how many people were
| arrested over telegram messages in russia.
| lxgr wrote:
| "Track record" is an incredibly poor indicator for the lack
| of a government backdoor, thinking back to Snowden, for
| example.
| Glacia wrote:
| Obviously FSB is not going to make a press release and be
| like "We have the keys LOL" so there would never be
| definitive proof.
|
| Fun fact: Telegram at some point was blocked in Russia for
| not giving FSB access to data. Later telegram was unblocked
| and is used extensively in Russia. It's not hard to figure
| out why it was unblocked.
| ivanmontillam wrote:
| > It's not hard to figure out why it was unblocked.
|
| If you're implying it's backdoored, that's a wild mental
| gymnastics you made there.
|
| No hate, but your comment is speculative in nature.
| k1ndl1 wrote:
| It was unblocked because of the backlash from people,
| incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users.
| FSB has nothing to do with it.
| Glacia wrote:
| >It was unblocked because of the backlash from people,
| incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users.
| FSB has nothing to do with it.
|
| Saying Russian government would give a shit about people
| opinions, funny joke.
| roveo wrote:
| Telegram wasn't fully blocked in Russia even for a single
| day. They tried to block it and failed miserably. The
| team actively circumvented the blocking by deploying to
| new IPs faster than they were blocked, and in addition to
| that every IT guy in Russia had a tgproxy instance
| running for family and friends.
|
| After a while they just stopped trying and decided that
| it's less reputational damage to just let it be.
| Glacia wrote:
| >After a while they just stopped trying and decided that
| it's less reputational damage to just let it be.
|
| That's not true. It's legally unblocked. the reason why
| it was unblocked was never published. "It was unblocked
| because they gave up" is just your interpretation of the
| events. Pretty naive one, in my opinion.
| perchlorate wrote:
| This is pure FUD. They're still trying to block it, the
| latest three attempts happened this week. Two of them
| were done in the middle of the night as training
| exercise, maybe for 3-4 hours each, and the last one then
| happened in the middle of the day. All three broke large
| parts of the internet and were quickly reverted.
|
| When something newsworthy happens in some region, all
| messengers get blocked in that region for days, Telegram
| included. They don't care about collateral damage to
| other websites then.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| What is an example of something that is newsworthy?
| perchlorate wrote:
| Here is a couple of typical examples when blocking is
| limited to a single region:
|
| https://storage.googleapis.com/gsc-link/cbe9d20e.html
|
| https://t.me/agentstvonews/4973
|
| https://t.me/meduzalive/94295
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm curious how the people attempting news blackouts
| reason about it.
|
| I doubt they explicitly say to themselves, "Today I do
| evil for fun and profit.". I wonder what their
| rationalization is.
| Glacia wrote:
| You're the one who is spreading FUD. Telegram was
| officially (legally) unblocked in 2020. There is 0
| evidence there is an active force trying to block
| Telegram in Russia. Which is very busy blocking every
| non-russian platform btw. As you yourself pointed out,
| most likely the reason why TG was down is because of
| attempts to block other platforms.
| evilfred wrote:
| "impeccable track record" lmao
| https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-
| chat...
| codedokode wrote:
| By the way, Dropbox had a person from the govt (Condoleezza
| Rice) on the Board of Directors, and people still entrusted
| their data to it.
| chucke1992 wrote:
| > Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for
| Russian government?
|
| Yes. You should read the history of Durov and why Telegram
| was created in the first place.
| z_open wrote:
| Why don't you post it yourself. And why should I care about
| what he says when telegram has some of the worst default
| encryption settings among commonly used messaging apps in
| the west?
| chucke1992 wrote:
| Except Telegram is considered one of the most secured
| apps around. Obviously it cannot stop people from being
| stupid when they expose themselves.
|
| The very reason why France is not happy is that because
| they cannot get access to private chats and stuff. EU was
| (and is) pushing for the end of E2E encryption after all
| (it failed this time, but they will try again).
|
| Durov created Telegram because the russian government was
| trying to take over his original social network - VK
| (basically imagine USA gov taking over Facebook). Thus he
| sold his shared and left the country.
|
| I do find it hilarious to see apologists of government
| over-reach like you.
| z_open wrote:
| What about group chat encryption? You can not possible
| say telegram is more secure than signal or WhatsApp.
|
| What did I say that made me an apologist for government
| overreach? I recommend users use Signal? Your accusation
| is unfounded when I was complaining about a lack of
| encryption.
| chucke1992 wrote:
| With Whatsapp it is pretty obvious at this point that it
| is in cahoot with governments in regards of backdoors and
| stuff. With Signal? Who knows? Maybe too.
|
| Governments don't go after services that they can access
| freely.
| timeon wrote:
| > I do find it hilarious to see apologists of government
| over-reach like you.
|
| Can you point to the relevant part of the comment?
| StrLght wrote:
| How is this even relevant? Telegram doesn't have E2EE
| enabled by default. Group chats aren't encrypted _at
| all_.
| mightybyte wrote:
| Here's a long personal interview with Durov.
|
| https://x.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1780355490964283565
|
| I know that TuckerCarlson is a polarizing character. My
| posting of this link is not any kind of statement for or
| against him or his politics. That being said, the interview
| really gives an interesting picture of Pavel Durov IMO. If
| you can ignore Carlson's annoying tangents into American
| politics, you get to hear a good bit of Durov's life story
| straight from his mouth in reasonable detail. I came away
| from it with a more positive picture of Durov and Telegram.
| tssge wrote:
| [deleted]
| lxgr wrote:
| Telegram has, by design, message content accessible to
| whoever runs the servers. WhatsApp has gone to great
| lengths to not have that.
|
| Obviously there's client security, potential backdoors,
| unencrypted backups, and many other things to worry about.
| But I don't see a scenario where it fares worse than
| Telegram, and many where it's significantly better.
| bn-l wrote:
| Whatsapp has to have some kind of escape hatch if not
| back door simply because of the amount of heat it doesn't
| get (think of all the regimes who are ok with it).
| lxgr wrote:
| I believe that escape hatch to be cloud backups, which
| are heavily encouraged by the UI and not end-to-end
| encrypted by default. iMessage has made the same
| compromise.
|
| As long as enough people click that checkbox, law
| enforcement has access and Meta/Apple are out of the news
| without having lied about or hidden anything.
| evilfred wrote:
| telegram is undoubtedly influenced by the Russian govt
| https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-
| chat...
| jimbob45 wrote:
| My understanding is that WhatsApp has never made claims
| comparable to Telegram or Signal.
|
| I also can't tell if you're being sincere. I was under the
| impression that Telegram was considered significantly less
| secure than Signal and that the matter was mostly settled.
| I've been seeing the following talking points repeated for
| years now.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/xk1jdw/comment/ipb
| v...
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for
| Russian government?
|
| To people arguing against this, Russia's Sovereign Wealth
| Fund RDIF has an ownership stake in Telegram after co-raising
| with Abu Dhabi's Mudabala in 2021 [0]
|
| Either way, Telegram is at the whims of MbZ, and if the UAE
| ever needs something from Russia, they'll use Durov and
| Telegram as collateral. The UAE's done the same thing with
| Pakistan (Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif), India (Dawood Ibrahim),
| Israel-Palestine (Mohammad Dahlan), Serbia (Belgrade
| Waterfront Project and Mohammad Dahlan), Turkiye (Mohammad
| Dahlan), etc.
|
| If the Telegram founders were truly opposed to Russia, they
| would have immigrated to Israel, the UK, Germany,
| Netherlands, or the US like most business dissidents in
| Russia. If VK wasn't stolen by an oligarch, they would have
| remained in Russia to this day.
|
| [0] -
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/russia-
| mu...
| GaggiX wrote:
| >Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for
| Russian government?
|
| Yes as Telegram was banned in Russia for a long time (or at
| least they tried) before giving up.
| marcinzm wrote:
| If they backdoored it between those events then it'd be
| logical to unban it.
| GaggiX wrote:
| There was no need, Russia did try by banning a lot of IP
| ranges but Telegram at the end was still running.
| palata wrote:
| There is no need for a backdoor since the vast majority of
| messages on Telegram are not end-to-end encrypted. Just read
| from the server!
| kgeist wrote:
| Durov was notorious in Russia for refusing to cooperate with
| FSB (successor to KGB), too. I remember when FSB asked him to
| give access to protester communications on VK (in 2011 during
| mass protests), he mockingly responded with a picture of a
| dog with its tongue out (showing your tongue means "I won't
| give it to ya" in Russian culture). That's why he left
| Russia, because he felt he'd get arrested soon. Quite ironic
| that he ended up getting arrested in the "free world", not
| Russia. Telegram was also banned in Russia for a few years.
| codedokode wrote:
| And my intuition is that Telegram is going to become banned
| in Russia soon, as Youtube is being banned now and Telegram
| is the last popular application where you can find the
| content about war, protests or elections that govt doesn't
| like.
| kgeist wrote:
| Telegram has also large Russian pro-war communities, and
| it's extensively used by soldiers deployed in Ukraine for
| communication. If pro-war channels outnumber opposition
| channels (and they probably do), Telegram probably won't
| be banned as long the government has no alternative.
|
| The fact of Durov getting arrested could be also used for
| propaganda purposes (no free speech in the West).
| llm_trw wrote:
| To slightly mis-quote the only good Soviet joke that came
| out after the fall of the USSR:
|
| The Communists lied to us about Communism, unfortunately
| they didn't lie about the West.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| I don't get it.
| llm_trw wrote:
| The USSR was a totalitarian hell hole which had nothing
| to do with what communism was supposed to be.
|
| It was still better than what happened to the USSR
| between 1993 and 2000 when the West won the cold war and
| dictated surrender terms.
| kgeist wrote:
| Nitpick: USSR was never officially a communist state, it
| was a "socialist" state. I remember the Soviet government
| had slogans like "we will build communism by 1980" etc.
| No one thought they already had communism. IIRC their
| idea was that, to build communism, you must have some
| kind of transitional state/ideology first. But something
| went wrong :)
| baxtr wrote:
| So you don't think that there a chance this could be
| cleverly staged?
| kgeist wrote:
| Anything is possible, of course. But without evidence,
| it'd consider it nothing more than a conspiracy theory.
| timeon wrote:
| > Telegram was also banned in Russia for a few years.
|
| What has changed since then?
| codedokode wrote:
| The procedures and setup for censoring the Internet were
| significantly improved; no need to go to the court, no
| need to exchange data with ISPs, black boxes with DPI are
| installed at every large ISP, compared to blacklists of
| IP/hostname hat were sent to ISPs before.
|
| I think this might become a future for most of the
| countries; China and Russia are just several years ahead.
| kgeist wrote:
| IIRC the bans weren't successful because the Telegram
| client had a system which announced new servers/IPs via
| push notifications. So they easily evaded it. Plus, the
| agency responsible for the bans got a bad rep after
| accidentally banning lots of unrelated services, ruining
| random businesses in Russia.
|
| Maybe they also understood that if you can't defeat them,
| lead them. Currently, Telegram has a lot of pro-war, pro-
| Kremlin channels.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > Telegram was also banned in Russia for a few years.
|
| And how exactly do you think it got unbanned?
|
| Their "encryption" used to use an in-house algorithm (in
| house algorithms almost always are vastly inferior to
| standard ones) and even today encryption stores the keys on
| their servers (in Russia...) and E2EE has to be enabled
| per-conversation by hand.
| timcobb wrote:
| Yeah why would it be backdoored by the Russian government?
| Because Durov is Russian?
| Simulacra wrote:
| Feels very much like a political crime, how soon until Mark
| Zuckerberg is arrested for WhatsApp?
| lxgr wrote:
| There's a world of a difference between refusing to hand over
| data you have to the authorities, and plausibly not having
| stored them in the first place.
|
| By end-to-end encrypting messages, but uploading backups to
| Google Drive and iCloud, and in a non-end-to-end encrypted
| way by default, WhatsApp (and iMessage, which does largely
| the same) have quite cleverly maneuvered themselves out of
| that potential source of legal problems without cutting off
| law enforcement access entirely.
| aquatica wrote:
| > "I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would
| probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add
| backdoors to telegram. So sad."
|
| Telegram is a backdoor by design. The server has complete
| access to all your messages, they can do whatever they want
| with those.
|
| And they even had a backdoor in E2EE chats, see:
| https://habr.com/ru/articles/206900/
| k1ndl1 wrote:
| This was a bug that was fixed right after it was reported.
| The author of the article praised Telegram for the speed of
| reaction.
| codedokode wrote:
| Note that America has been caught spying on EU countries
| politicians and manufacturers so many times and nobody got
| ever punished for this. While the backdoor talks are purely
| hypothetical, and Telegram's client and protocol are open
| source: you can just study the code.
| noobermin wrote:
| Do you have a link in english?
| gmueckl wrote:
| That is absolutely not how it works. If you offer a platform
| for public discourse you are required by law to moderate it or
| face the consequences. Telegram group chats are technically
| open to moderation, yet the company has done nothing to put any
| kind of moderation in place.
|
| This is in contrast to Facebook or Twitter. Those platforms
| will absolutely take down content that is offensive or criminal
| in nature.
| codedokode wrote:
| You can report any post in public or private groups to
| moderators.
| gmueckl wrote:
| I don't see a report button anywhere in the Android app.
| Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.
| bamboozled wrote:
| That's good, while prosecutors and law enforcement are
| wasting time building a car against him, the drug dealers and
| pedophiles will just carry on elsewhere.
| k1ndl1 wrote:
| Actually, there is a moderation within Telegram; it is not at
| the scale of Meta & X in terms of the head-count. Telegram
| probably has 100x less employees than Meta (I don't know the
| actual number) https://telegram.org/tos/eu-dsa
| alex00 wrote:
| Facebook does not generally take down content that is
| offensive or criminal in nature.
|
| The have moderation teams because they are required by law.
| These are outsourced to the lowest bidder. They are so
| overwhelmed by the amount of that content.
|
| Watch those documentaries about the psychological traumas
| inflicted to those that moderate Facebook content.
| marcuskane2 wrote:
| So he's a political prisoner.
|
| The political establishment doesn't want the proletariat
| having journalism that reports against the wishes of the
| powerful or of regular people having free speech to be used
| against the government.
|
| No ethical person should take part in enforcing these laws.
| seszett wrote:
| > _There is no info about why exactly he was arrested but it
| looks like that French police had a warrant for him._
|
| > _But it looks like it is because that he is accused of being
| an accessory of a lot of things like traffic, drugs,
| pedopornography, anything bad you can image because he would
| not have done anything to combat that on Telegram._
|
| This very article says that it's because Telegram doesn't
| cooperate with authorities in handling illegal content (which
| it is legally obligated to, to operate in France) and provides
| services to facilitate illegal activities (crypto or throwaway
| numbers).
|
| It's in the "why was he arrested" section.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I hate the way Telegram always gets flak for crime when
| WhatsApp and Signal can be used for it just as well and they
| are even harder to track things down on because they have E2EE.
| Telegram by default doesn't and it doesn't even support it in
| group chats!
|
| So if these things happen in WhatsApp or Signal we simply don't
| know about it.
| chad1n wrote:
| From Telegram sources: >Pavel Durov faces up to 20 years in
| prison in France. The trial will take place very soon - sources
| close to the investigation.
|
| In addition to drug trafficking, he is accused of collaborating
| with an organized crime group, covering up for pedophiles, fraud
| and money laundering.
|
| I don't know how reliable this is, but I've seen in 3-4 sources
| that he's arrested for terrorism, child abuse, drug trafficking
| (not providing data to prosecutors).
| Oras wrote:
| If it is an encrypted service, how would the company censor and
| tackle these issues? I'm asking from a technical standpoint.
| codedokode wrote:
| Telegram has public and private groups. They probably want to
| jail him for not pre-moderating every posted message.
| Oras wrote:
| That's my question, if messages are end to end encrypted
| then the company does not have access to censor, right?
| codedokode wrote:
| Messages in groups are not E2E encrypted, especially in
| public groups where anyone can read them even without
| joining. However, anyone can report the message to
| moderators. The public groups are often limited
| (temporarily removed from search, temporarily or
| permanently banned) if they do too much violations.
| Gualdrapo wrote:
| > However, anyone can report the message to moderators.
|
| Good luck with that. And that's a seriously big issue.
| Moderators (and "moderators" in Telegram mean an alleged
| team of people they hire to moderate all content in
| Telegram - if you report content, the group
| administrators won't even be notified about that so they
| can act by themselves first) in most cases won't do
| absolutely anything.
| skyyler wrote:
| The messages are not end to end encrypted.
|
| There is a feature that can be enabled to create an end-
| to-end encrypted chat between strictly two users, but
| most people do not actually use it.
|
| Telegram is largely a social network masquerading as a
| messaging app. There is a deep network of "channels" that
| interlink with each other to provide a community for
| users. None of that is encrypted.
| a0123 wrote:
| That's how successful Telegram's PR has been. People
| believe - like you do - that it's end to end encrypted.
| It's not.
|
| The secret chats presumably are (if you trust Telegram).
| Secret chats are 1 to 1. So anything outside of those
| that most people on Telegram access (massive channels and
| groups, smaller groups, private groups and channels) is
| NOT encrypted.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| It is not encrypted by default. By default, everything goes
| through Telegram servers and can be read there.
| codedokode wrote:
| If he intentionally cooperated with criminals then it is one
| thing. But if someone posted something illegal, and nobody
| reported this, then it obviously is not Durov's fault. If you
| are too lazy to report illegal content then you should arrest
| yourselves first.
| chucke1992 wrote:
| Basically as he did not provide access to the encrypted
| messages and communication in Telegram, they accused him for
| supporting the criminals. That's all to it.
|
| It is basically the part of the current politics in EU where
| they are trying to force access to all encrypted traffic
| across devices.
| mdhb wrote:
| Do you have any proof of this whatsoever or are you just
| making this up?
| evilfred wrote:
| just one google away https://www.wired.com/story/the-
| kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
| a0123 wrote:
| Yeah, and do you think France is going to arrest Durov on
| the Kremlin's request.
|
| Fun fact: the Russian government and high ranking
| officials are outraged by the arrest and are asking the
| Russian state to pressure France into releasing him.
|
| It's one google away. Before you blame this one on Russia
| too.
| mdhb wrote:
| Maybe just wait a moment for things to come out through the
| natural course of justice rather than getting yourself all
| worked up here.
|
| The accusations are serious enough that it's probably
| reasonable to assume that they have some serious evidence for
| this and if that is true then this is a good outcome that
| should be celebrated.
| perihelions wrote:
| - _" probably reasonable to assume"_
|
| Presumption of reasonability in political prosecutions
| doesn't exactly have a great track record.
|
| I remember when the GoF tried to blackmail a Wikipedia
| admin with prosecution threats, to coerce them to censor
| Wikipedia entries it didn't want people to read,
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5503354 ( _" French
| homeland intelligence threatens a sysop into deleting a
| Wikipedia Article (wikimedia.fr)"_)
| mdhb wrote:
| I don't know what anyone is supposed to assume from one
| story from over a decade ago.
|
| I'm just saying to slow down and wait for details to come
| out. This thread is turning into a paranoid fever dream
| based on nothing as far as I can tell.
| alex00 wrote:
| The extent of the accusations is evidence that all that is made
| up in order to get access into Telegram. Telegram is too
| important to the other side in the Ukraine war. If Telegram
| goes, then the other side is silenced.
| evilfred wrote:
| by "other side" you mean "invaders of their sovereign
| neighbour"
| alex00 wrote:
| Ukraine is being played in this proxy war. We are dumping
| them as soon as they are of no use to us. Like many times
| before.
| phtrivier wrote:
| I would be very surprised if the _trial_ was to take place
| "very soon". (Trials hardly ever take place "very soon" in
| France.)
|
| However, I could imagine him staying in custody while being
| investigated for a couple days, then quickly facing some level
| of judge to decide whether he has to stay in jail or can be
| released.
|
| Once this is done, don't expect a formal trial until multiple
| months (and most realistically, at least a year.)
| qingcharles wrote:
| He's a super high flight risk, so I'm thinking the
| prosecution is going to make a pretty solid case for him
| staying in pre-trial until trial in a year or two.
|
| He's gonna have a very miserable time. Flying private jet -->
| watching another man shitting next to you.
| a0123 wrote:
| About the custody thing, he's an extremely high flight risk.
| If the French authorities are serious about his arrest and
| it's not just a dumb PR move, there is absolutely no chance
| he's going to be released. Not without 24/7 police
| surveillance and giving up on all this passports.
| qingcharles wrote:
| The trial will take place soon?
|
| That seems very unlikely. I don't think France has a statutory
| number of days in their speedy trial right, so even if you
| demand trial as you walk in the door, for a serious trial of
| this size, with this many charges, my experience is saying one
| to two years for trial.
|
| Now, France does have more rights on pre-trial detention, so he
| might be able to get some sort of bail, but he's an enormously
| high flight risk, so.. maybe not.
| yvino wrote:
| on what charges ?
| twostorytower wrote:
| _for his failure to cooperate in an investigation of crimes
| perpetrated using the platform. It may be that he failed to
| comply with lawful subpoenas._
|
| That's what I read
| Terretta wrote:
| Key points:
|
| - Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram, was arrested in
| France after arriving from Azerbaijan.
|
| - Durov was detained at Le Bourget Airport by the Gendarmerie
| des Transports Aeriens (GTA) due to a French warrant.
|
| - The warrant was issued on claims of Telegram's lack of
| moderation and cooperation with law enforcement, making Durov
| complicit in crimes such as drug trafficking, pedophilia-
| related offenses, and fraud.
|
| - Durov's arrest was contingent on him being on French
| territory, as he is listed in the FPR (wanted persons file).
| Unclear why he decided to land there.
|
| - Durov is now in custody and will face a judge, with potential
| charges including terrorism, drug offenses, complicity, fraud,
| money laundering, and pedophilia-related content.
|
| - Authorities believe Durov will likely be placed in pre-trial
| detention due to his substantial financial resources and
| perceived flight risk.
|
| - The arrest aims to pressure European countries to cooperate
| on law enforcement efforts against crimes facilitated through
| Telegram, particularly terrorism and organized crime.
| NoxiousPluK wrote:
| This news is also what is making Toncoin go down hard currently:
| https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/toncoin/
| codedokode wrote:
| If they want to arrest him for lack of pre-moderation, then it is
| ridiculous.
| earnesti wrote:
| They added this wallet feature with a lot of different cryptos,
| which implicates that they are also now providing maybe a
| financial service. The regulation with those is heavy.
| codedokode wrote:
| Technically crypto wallet is a third-party app and not a part
| of Telegram distribution.
| ivanmontillam wrote:
| Telegram's @wallet is owned by Telegram itself.
|
| It's registered as a separate company, but they even share
| some office space.
| threeseed wrote:
| In almost all countries services like this are required to
| moderate.
|
| Has been this way for decades and shouldn't be a surprise to
| anyone.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| What would happen to the messenger? I have a lot of useful
| connections there. And using it to read HN.
| vessenes wrote:
| Not clear right now if France thinks he was actively complicit
| with the four horsemen listed, or if just the act of running
| Telegram makes him complicit in their eyes, or something in the
| middle, e.g. they asked for help and Telegram turned them down.
|
| This will be an interesting case to watch -- I don't believe
| there are any western nations that want non-locally-backdoored
| messaging of any sort -- but generally my understanding is that
| harassment on border entry has been the order of the day, rather
| than arrests.
| chucke1992 wrote:
| > I don't believe there are any western nations that want non-
| locally-backdoored messaging of any sort
|
| But that's what exactly they want no? EU is literally
| implementing a regulation that will allow to "circumvent end-
| to-end encryption to address child sexual abuse material". I
| believe it failed to pass recently, but they will try again -
| and nothing stops countries to implement it independently. I
| think France is the one who was pushing for that in the first
| place.
| dijit wrote:
| A handful of EU MEPs keep pushing backdoored encryption and
| it keeps getting veto'd.
|
| There are two legistive bodies in the EU, one is only allowed
| to propose law, the other is only allowed to vote on it.
|
| Lots of braindead laws get put to a vote, theres no
| requirement that they get through.
|
| I understand that raising the alarm is helpful, but it would
| be helpful if people took a second to understand how the EU
| works, the politicians involved and how their motions are
| perceived by the rest of parliament.
| arlort wrote:
| 3 actually, (the second body you described can be
| categorised as bicameral)
|
| Which would be pedantry if it weren't that one of the two
| chambers is much more in line with the former
| T-A wrote:
| You might be surprised to learn who's doing the pushing:
|
| https://www.wired.com/story/europes-moral-crusader-lays-
| down...
|
| https://www.statewatch.org/news/2024/july/police-should-
| have...
| a1o wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
| timeon wrote:
| > EU is literally implementing a regulation
|
| Does it?
| vessenes wrote:
| I think you read my clumsy sentence backwards. They
| absolutely want to get in the middle of messaging, all of
| them. This is behind many of the calls for E2E interop as
| well -- all the proposals I'm aware of call for termination
| somewhere in the middle; you can imagine who'd like to be at
| that termination middle point. This is why Apple will not
| "move over" to RCS, ever, as a first class transport -- it's
| fundamentally no more secure than OTA plaintext to existing
| persistent threat actors.
| a0123 wrote:
| To be clear, the legislation in France and in the EU that is
| most likely behind this arrest is that companies have to at
| least try to do some moderation. There is an understanding
| that not everything can be moderated (obviously, the entire
| Internet would be banned otherwise) but there has to be a
| genuine attempt.
|
| Which every company does more or less. The fact that Telegram
| doesn't reach this extremely low, very low bar is quite
| something.
| spwa4 wrote:
| What keeps amazing me is that this is supposed to make
| children's lives better, by helping social services.
|
| Of course, such legislation only has any chance in hell of
| improving lives if the standard of living for children, the
| education, the ... IN social services is good. It is very
| easy to see this WILL put more children into such a
| situation, and that's about the only thing such legislation
| will definitely do. It is completely absurd to think this
| is going to end drugs, abuse or whatever else they're
| looking for.
|
| Is that the case? Is it the case that the standard of
| living, education, ... in social services is good?
|
| No. Not at all. There's constant scandals and if a child
| that gets into a social services institution makes it into
| university, just one, any given year, that's national news.
| Prostitution in social services is common, drugs and crime
| are everywhere.
|
| It seems there is A LOT more work to be done on the other
| side of social services first. They seem to perform VERY
| badly once they actually catch someone. So why do this?
| Because it isn't to help children. At the very best they
| see this as a cheap way to look like they're improving
| social services.
| codedokode wrote:
| Telegram allows to report illegal posts; I suggest that
| France arrests those who saw the posts but didn't report
| them instead.
| NoxiousPluK wrote:
| To be fair, anyone that has used Telegram for a while
| know that this is just a mock option to fool regulators.
| You can report all you want; zero action is taken. There
| are dozens of accounts that joined groups I'm in to spam
| CSAM. We've reported them, kicked/banned them from the
| group. Months later you can look them up and they're
| still there and still active. They even post CSAM in
| their public (visible for everyone on their profile)
| stories.
| cft wrote:
| I tried to market something very small on Telegram and
| was surprised how fast my account got restricted.
| chad1n wrote:
| EU has been complaining about Telegram's end-to-end encryption
| for a long time and they want to implement some regulations to
| basically add backdoors into all messaging apps. I don't really
| see how this case will go on since at least private chats are
| encrypted so Telegram (theoretically at least) can't see the
| contents.
| EduardoBautista wrote:
| Are they going to arrest Zuckerberg and Tim Cook next for the
| encryption in WhatsApp and iMessage?
| crote wrote:
| What makes you believe those do not have backdoors for
| Western powers?
| verisimi wrote:
| Perhaps they already have backdoors, but don't tell
| everyone.
| rubymamis wrote:
| Maybe not, if they already got backdoors?
| sangnoir wrote:
| If Apple hypothetically agreed to iMessage backdoors, why
| would you trust the Telegram app updates served up by
| Apple's app store? Western government's can pretty much
| hack into any device they want - the only reason for
| backdooring messaging apps would be for dragnet
| surveillance, and I don't see big tech having the
| appetite for the bad publicity and lawsuits that will
| result when that inevitably becomes public
| codedokode wrote:
| Apple already has a kind of "backdoor": they store the
| keys for encrypted cloud backups in their cloud as well.
| They advertise that cloud data are encrypted but prefer
| not to mention that they also have a key to decrypt it.
| Even with the highest level of security [1] your contacts
| list in Apple Cloud are not encrypted. Why? Probably
| someone asked for this.
|
| [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
| zerodensity wrote:
| I mean I wouldn't complain if they did.
| codedokode wrote:
| They are US citizens, nobody dares to arrest them (except
| for Russia and North Korea).
| talldayo wrote:
| No, because then they'd have to acknowledge that WhatsApp
| and iMessage are both compromised.
| vizzah wrote:
| Private chats are a hassle to initiate and not multi-device.
|
| Most use normal chats.
|
| With anonymous accounts, using anonymous +888 numbers, whose
| price has increased from $16 to $1000+ in a matter of a year,
| it is indeed a very convenient playground for all sorts of
| activities.
| walterbell wrote:
| In which countries are the vendors of anonymous numbers
| located?
| vizzah wrote:
| There are no vendors, Telegram issues those numbers. So
| it's basically a pass to create account w/o mobile number
| requirement, if you're ready to pay for it.
| codedokode wrote:
| Aren't open source apps like Jabber or Element which do not
| require a phone number and allow to host your own server, a
| much better playground?
| popcalc wrote:
| Security theater.
|
| SimpleX is the real deal.
| roomey wrote:
| Here's the thing, all the politicians use WhatsApp.
|
| They actually don't want that backdoored, guaranteed.
| perihelions wrote:
| EU politicians did (try to) explicitly exempt themselves
| from their own chat surveillance laws,
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40063025 ( _"
| ChatControl: EU ministers want to exempt themselves
| (european-pirateparty.eu)"_, 202 comments)
| wkat4242 wrote:
| That makes sense though. We all know all politicians are
| saints and would never fall prey to corruption or
| criminal interests. /s
| ben_w wrote:
| /s aside, politicians need privacy for the same reason
| the rest of us do: they work with sensitive information
| and it's really important they don't get blackmailed.
|
| Simultaneously, they need a light shone on their private
| lives for the same reason they want to do that to the
| rest of us: to make sure they're not abusing their access
| to sensitive information, getting blackmailed, or
| otherwise being nefarious.
|
| I have absolutely no idea how to fix this apparent
| paradox. Perhaps it can't be done. Even if it can, tech
| is unstable and this is all a moving target -- the way
| GenAI is going, I suspect that we'll all have to carry
| always-on cameras that log and sign everything just to
| prove we _didn 't_ do whatever some picture or video
| shows us doing.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| > I suspect that we'll all have to carry always-on
| cameras that log and sign everything just to prove we
| didn't do whatever some picture or video shows us doing.
|
| Yeah good luck with that :')
|
| PS: A change to "guilty until proven innocent" policy
| would require a serious constitutional change in most
| countries.
| ben_w wrote:
| > A change to "guilty until proven innocent" policy would
| require a serious constitutional change in most
| countries.
|
| Indeed, though there I was thinking more the court of
| public opinion which loves hearsay and rumour.
|
| The actual law? I have no idea. Tech will change the
| world before the law can catch up with yesterday.
| hagbard_c wrote:
| That concept is as old as politics itself, the Romans
| already stated _quod licet Iovi non licet bovi_ (What 's
| allowable for Jupiter is not allowed for cattle), the
| modern version of which is _rules for thee, not for me_
| or _do as I say, not as I do_.
|
| BTW, install your own XMPP server and use OMEMO-
| compatible clients - Conversations on Android, Gajim on
| desktop - and you get to have access to non-surveilled
| [1]communications just like those politico's.
|
| [1] assuming that your client and server devices remain
| uncompromised, not a given if you happen to be a high-
| value target. Caveat emptor.
| ncruces wrote:
| We've definitely had that: "official" government business
| over WhatsApp to ensure no retention rules apply.
| DAGdug wrote:
| Yep, classic backdoor for thee, but not for me!
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Except Telegram has much less E2EE than Signal or Whatsapp.
|
| It's not on by default, works only between 2 devices, they
| both have to be online at the same time and you can't access
| anything from the web. And group chats don't support it at
| all. Private chats are not end to end encrypted by default
| and it's actually quite clumsy to encrypt them so almost
| nobody uses it.
|
| It's really weird that Telegram is singled out like this.
| stefan_ wrote:
| If you don't cooperate while having the data and your
| approach to legal compliance is "votes on your personal TG
| channel", expect to get arrested. At least the services
| with actual E2EE worth a shit can make a convincing
| argument they can't produce the data.
| klntsky wrote:
| It's because it is in fact used for this, unlike say
| whatsapp that does not enjoy any trust.
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| That was my first thought as well. There are good uses for
| telegram and some things work better than signal ( API
| comes to mind ). But just from privacy perspective,
| telegram is much more easily neutered than signal.
|
| I will admit I am confused. I can only assume something
| else is at play.
|
| edit: The only thing I can think of is that there some
| rather gruesome channels showing Russia/Ukraine,
| Palestine/Israel toll. I wonder if it was decided that
| general population should not have access to these.
| sangnoir wrote:
| I can't tell if it's just uninformed grassroots mistrust of
| big tech, or the result of astroturf PsyOps to get more
| people to use the app with weaker encryption.
| sega_sai wrote:
| Because Telegram is not just a messenger, it's a platform
| for distributing news/info through channels. Signal simply
| does not have that.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Signal and WhatsApp do have that. You can easily use
| group chats that way, you just have to get invited. You
| can't look for them and join them.
|
| It's really easy for e.g. a drugdealer to post QR codes
| or something on lamp posts with their contact and then
| they can invite people. Making Telegram go away is just
| going to hide the problem, not solve it.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Going after the one with the least care factor first would
| make a lot of sense, assuming their cryptographic
| implementation is inline with their care factor.
| 4bpp wrote:
| In a way, Durov's arrest retroactively vindicates every EU
| citizen's decision to use Telegram (up until now), as it
| proves that they haven't been getting what they want from
| him. I am not nearly as concerned about Durov himself or
| the government of Dubai getting to read my messages as I am
| about the EU or one of its member states doing so, as there
| simply isn't much I can see the former doing with that
| data. The real danger only arises when the people who can
| read your messages and the people who can dispatch dudes
| with guns to your house are in cahoots. (For the same
| reason, I tend to roll my eyes at warnings about various
| forms of Chinese spyware.)
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| But they recommend Signal themselves...
|
| https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-to-staff-
| switc...
|
| >The European Commission has told its staff to start using
| Signal, an end-to-end-encrypted messaging app, in a push to
| increase the security of its communications.
|
| Also Telegram is not E2E by default. You need to activate it
| per chat. By default and in groups it is only server
| encrypted.
| gtvwill wrote:
| But here's the thing. If your app is known to be uses heavily
| by criminals ranging from Pedo's to drug dealers. You are
| liable. You run a carrier service. Much like the owner of
| omegle found out, yes you do have a duty of care. You can't
| just provide a service that knowingly provides a platform to
| criminal activity and do jack shit. You live in fairytale land
| if you think you can.
| codedokode wrote:
| What do you mean by "knowingly providing a service to a
| criminal"? Is Elon Mask then guilty for providing access to
| Twitter for Trump?
| gtvwill wrote:
| Well much like the owner of omegle found out you can't
| provide platforms for criminal activities and make no
| effort to curb it. It only takes a 30 second google before
| you find telegram rooms offering all kinds of illegal
| stuff. You don't find that on Twitter. Twitter is atleast
| mildly moderated. Telegram could have moderation built in
| to catch illegal activities but it chooses to do nothing.
| See the difference?
| chad1n wrote:
| Telegram is end-to-end encrypted in private chats, the
| Telegram team doesn't even know what people are
| discussing. Same should happen with Whatsapp or Signal.
| Should Whatsapp or Signal be accountable for what
| terrorists talk in private?
| gtvwill wrote:
| App can have internal keyword check that could open
| backdoor to law enforcement when certain terms are said.
| *fbi enters the conversation* probably won't be in your
| chat log anytime soon but you can't argue telegram,
| signal and whatsapp can't do it. Whatsapp being fbs
| darling almost certainly does already and signal servers
| anti spam folder is smelling mighty like a five eyes
| backdoor.
|
| Tbh given both those apps company's have dealings with
| gov in aus I'm gonna say signals probably already got a
| backdoor into em. If you don't think so you don't know
| aus law well enough or who signals are.
|
| Also the owners of the apps aren't liable for the content
| of the conversations. Their liable for providing a
| platform for the conversation to take place and for not
| knowingly taking available efforts to curb criminal
| activity on that platfor/service. It's like hey I'm gonna
| rent you a store house to hide all your illegal drugs in
| Mr gang member. I'm not doing the hiding or anything but
| I'm assisting the activity by providing the store house.
| I could make efforts to curb such activity like you know
| doing a rental inspection once every six months but I
| choose not to and turn a blind eye. Am I assisting a
| crime or am I completely innocent? Now repeat this but
| telegram is the store house.
| codedokode wrote:
| Telegram has an open-source client and is moving to
| verifiable builds (not on every platform). You cannot
| hide such a backdoor, and users would be able to
| recompile a clean version of the app.
| a0123 wrote:
| The fun fact is that while Telegram won't make use of
| something akin to PicDNA to automatically detect CSAM, it
| will very happily take down your channel or group if you
| distribute copyrighted material.
|
| They do know how to respond to copyright complaints. Not
| so much about other, far more serious sort of illegal
| activities. Just on that point, they should have expected
| something to be done against them.
| gmueckl wrote:
| Twitter already got warned about hosting Trump by the EU.
| scrlk wrote:
| That warning was not an official EU position:
|
| > "Thierry Breton, the French commissioner, had posted
| the warning letter on X, the platform owned by Musk,
| hours before the billionaire interviewed US presidential
| candidate Donald Trump, also on X."
|
| > "On Tuesday the European Commission denied Breton had
| approval from its president Ursula von der Leyen to send
| the letter."
|
| https://www.ft.com/content/09cf4713-7199-4e47-a373-ed5de6
| 1c2...
|
| https://archive.ph/zugnf
| codedokode wrote:
| Great, arrest both, I don't like them anyway.
| CactusOnFire wrote:
| By that logic, any app that provides privacy from governments
| spying is a criminal enterprise.
| zerodensity wrote:
| Well I mean in many countries, blocking the surveillance
| agency from listening in on your calls/texts/chats is
| illegal. So making an app that interferes with the agencies
| ability to "listen in" is infact a criminal enterprise.
|
| Don't have to like it but the law is the law.
| chad1n wrote:
| You realize that every social media/forum/messaging app
| should be banned then and every CEO in jail. Bad actors will
| use anything they can.
| gtvwill wrote:
| No because those platforms make the values token effort to
| curb illegal activity via moderation be it user performed
| or done by their own employees. Telegram does not do this.
| Anywhere at all. It's very different.
| chad1n wrote:
| I know chat rooms that have been nuked for Pornography
| etc. I reported some chats where I've seen inappropriate
| content and I received notifications that they were
| deleted. A lot of users are muted/banned too for illegal
| activities. It isn't exactly unmoderated, but the staff
| can't exactly search every single server under the sun
| for illegal material or activities. You probably don't
| know how bad Matrix is, out of 200k servers, 70k were
| banned for CSAM and there are still a lot of them around.
| seszett wrote:
| Last time I used Telegram and had a look at the
| "discussions around your area" or something, I couldn't
| find anything that wasn't about selling drugs or fake
| documents. It was a giant drug delivery platform.
|
| It might be different in other places but here, in a
| large city of continental Europe, Telegram is definitely
| little more than an enabler for illegal activities.
| codedokode wrote:
| Note that selling drugs is a victimless crime. Also, you
| could report those illegal posts, or you knowingly and
| willingly allowed criminals to continue their activities?
| seszett wrote:
| Reporting these posts is ineffective, which is the whole
| point of the arrest.
|
| The victim of drugs is the whole society. It's only
| "victimless" in an absolutely individualistic
| environment, which I wouldn't even call a "society".
|
| But none of this contradicts my initial comment. Telegram
| is a straight enabler of illegal activities.
| a0123 wrote:
| The Telegram fanatics for some reason are unwilling to hear
| it but we'll say it again: the reason why we still have an
| Internet in 2024 is that _all_ those services at least
| attempt _some_ form of moderation.
|
| With more or less success, sure, but they can at least say
| there is an attempt and they do take down stuff. Durov
| pretty much brags about not doing the bare minimum.
|
| It's that simple.
| codedokode wrote:
| Telegram allows to report illegal content to moderators.
| Jail those who saw the content but didn't report it.
|
| I am sure all those claims in the media about
| "cooperating with terrorists" is just a lie.
| echelon wrote:
| E2EE should be a human right. Period.
|
| There are other ways to capture and ensnare criminals.
| Sacrificing our privacy for the "greater good" is a bridge
| too far.
|
| As one counter point, think about all of the completely fine
| human behaviors that instantly become kompromat when the
| powers have access to your every communication. That is way
| more dangerous to democracy, freedom, and liberty than a
| slightly smaller chance of "not protecting the children".
|
| Besides, if we actually cared so much about children, we
| wouldn't let them not get school lunches, we wouldn't sell
| them on gambling and gacha games, and we'd do a much better
| job of educating them.
| chucke1992 wrote:
| Famous quote that if you sacrifice freedom for security,
| you will get neither.
| Terr_ wrote:
| *sigh* Dude, if it's really that relevant and compelling,
| you could _at least quote it properly_. I mean, it 's the
| year 2024, finding and copy-pasting is barely slower than
| typing a mangled paraphrase:
|
| > Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase
| a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor
| Safety.
|
| _____________
|
| That said, this quote is typically misused, or at best
| being used _wayyy_ outside its original context. [0]
|
| Franklin is actually talking about the their local
| legislature's "Liberty" _to impose taxes_ , versus the
| "Safety" of a one-time "donation" from the local oligarch
| Penn family (of _Penn_ sylvania) who want tax-immunity
| forever in exchange. He's saying representatives are
| stupid for considering the deal.
|
| [0] https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-0
| 6-02-01...
| vessenes wrote:
| I upvoted your comment so that it has a bit of visibility
| because I know some people think this, but I disagree with
| it, very strongly.
|
| First, your analogy is broken -- roads, telephones, pen and
| paper, motor vehicles all fit your description just as aptly.
|
| Second, you propose your preferred moral economy as one that
| only curtails harms. In fact, you create another harm
| implementing what you think is right.
|
| Reasonable people disagree about which is worse -- the
| creation and public support of a technocratic oligarchy in
| control of how humans communicate _or_ the proliferation of
| some harms that take advantage of unfettered communication.
| But please don 't be simple minded, pretending to yourself or
| others that there aren't real costs, social and physical, on
| both sides of this.
|
| For myself, I think private communications are a human right
| and a massive good for society, and I don't condone criminal
| acts undertaken using messaging.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >First, your analogy is broken -- roads, telephones, pen
| and paper, motor vehicles all fit your description just as
| aptly.
|
| and they're usually public property and policed. Routine
| police inspection on a road and in particular control of
| borders and key nodes in your transportation infrastructure
| isn't exactly controversial. (unless you're part of some
| extreme political faction). You know a lot of countries
| where people can drive without a license plate?
|
| Private communication is important but it has always had
| limits, this crypto mentality of companies exercising no
| compliance, having no borders, ignoring the law and
| national security doesn't have a precedent. Historically
| people communicated say in the US using an American
| telecommunications network which without a doubt complied
| with legal requests. It's not at all self evident that you
| should tolerate telecoms infrastructure operated by a
| Russian out of Dubai that is primarily used by an enemy
| we're effectively at war with.
| garrettgarcia wrote:
| Why stop there? By your logic, the owners of every ISP that
| provides a pathway for those criminal bits also should be in
| jail. Every single organization in that pathway would be
| liable from the registrars to the developers of web libraries
| or other app services. The governments themselves would be
| liable in many cases where the government has nationalized
| internet services.
|
| There is a principle in the free world that one is not
| criminally liable for the speech of others. This is the
| principle that allows ISP's, newspapers, web forums, Google,
| etc. etc. to exist. You demand that the principle be violated
| and the Internet be destroyed. I disagree.
| ren_engineer wrote:
| the EU is becoming a parody
|
| >we've got to save democracy by restricting free speech and
| enforcing laws and regulations created by unelected officials
| sunaookami wrote:
| Ever since von der Leyen became president. Typical for her
| since she also tried the same shit in Germany.
| andrepd wrote:
| Hah! Life would be great if the EU's problems started with
| von der Leyen
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Where did it start out of curiosity?
| Detrytus wrote:
| With it's creation.
| Aerroon wrote:
| Sadly, this isn't the case.
|
| I keep bringing it up since people forget about it: in 2006
| the EU adopted the Data Retention Directive that forced all
| ISPs to save the browsing history of everyone.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive
|
| It was _eventually_ declared invalid by the European court
| of human rights, but it was still in effect for many years.
| Countries that did not implement this (eg Romania because
| their constitutional court found it illegal) were sued by
| the EU commission.
|
| The EU's attempts to spy on people go back decades. You'll
| also note that government gets exemptions from all the
| privacy stuff the EU pushes.
|
| I _hope_ the EU changes course on this, but as with their
| handling of other tech... I 'm not holding my breath.
| codedokode wrote:
| Is that directive the reason why website operators do not
| want to implement ECH (Encrypted Client Hello) which
| allows to encrypt server name in TLS connection? I tried
| googling this, but Cloudflare blog only says that they
| disabled ECH without disclosing the reasons: [1]
|
| [1] https://community.cloudflare.com/t/early-hints-and-
| encrypted...
| Glacia wrote:
| How arresting Durov restrict free speech?
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Unelected officials = experts
|
| We don't expect our politicians to dedicate their lives to
| scientific research so this perspective is inherently flawed.
| hexxagone wrote:
| There are experts working at the commission.
| nine_k wrote:
| The detainment order was outstanding for some time, and Durov
| certainly knew that. Still he plainly landed in France and was
| detained. Why?
|
| My pet tinfoil-hat theory is that he decided that staying in a
| French prison is safer for him than being out in the open and
| get some polonium, or whatnot.
| alephnan wrote:
| He has a lavish lifestyle and France is the capital of luxury
| tw04 wrote:
| >and get some polonium
|
| Why would he get some polonium? There are endless official
| Russian state telegram channels. Putin clearly has no issue
| with it or he would have banned it.
| kernal wrote:
| > staying in a French prison is safer for him than being out
| in the open
|
| This is probably the most ridiculous theory I've read all
| year.
| mc32 wrote:
| It'll be interesting to see if the likes of Marlinspike,
| Firefox, EFF, etc., rally to support this guy.
|
| It's really chilling to see the steps EU gobs are taking
| against free speech. In some ways they seem more authoritarian
| than even China and Russia. It's like "free world" is becoming
| a farce.
| jakeinspace wrote:
| Not sure what they can do, he's worth ten times what all
| those groups are together, so I doubt he'll have an issue
| with legal costs.
| a0123 wrote:
| Durov has been shilling his crypto scams while shitting on
| all those services you're talking about (well, at least
| Signal) claiming they don't do anything for privacy.
|
| Considering how he's tarnished Signal, there is absolutely no
| reason for them or anyone else to back him up.
|
| What will be very funny is the fact that Telegram is pretty
| much not encrypted (yeah ok, "secret chats", whatever sure)
| and now that investigators probably have access to Durov's
| phone, that lack of encryption might come back to bite him in
| the ass. Can't wait to know what they find and if they do
| find something, it might be interesting to see if he finally
| changes his stance.
| foverzar wrote:
| > well, at least Signal
|
| Basically only Signal + Whatsapp.
|
| > claiming they don't do anything for privacy.
|
| Well, Signal is kind of a scam in that regard.
| foverzar wrote:
| Large geopolitical powers are all the same. It's only people
| who live there that are convinced they are doing better than
| those other guys.
|
| Yes, that includes people from Russia, China or the US
| believing they are the ones who are truly free, and
| everything else are totalitarian shitholes. Each one of them
| is even kind of right in their own regard.
| artembugara wrote:
| According to this source he's accused in non-cooperating. He's
| not accused of terrorism, drug, or slaving directly.
|
| Very interesting to see where it will all go.
|
| I don't understand how they're going to convince French judges
| that he's guilty for not being able to decrypt chats that he has
| no keys for...
| 42lux wrote:
| According to which source?
| artembugara wrote:
| The one this HN post links to
| Kailhus wrote:
| See sibling comment for a more accurate description
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341848
| abcd_f wrote:
| > _According to this source he's accused in non-cooperating._
|
| With the context that you omitted it makes more sense:
| Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation
| with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram
| (disposable numbers, cryptocurrencies...) makes it an
| accomplice to drug trafficking, pedo-criminal offenses
| and swindling.
| artembugara wrote:
| Yes you're correct.
| mikae1 wrote:
| _> not being able to decrypt chats that he has no keys for..._
|
| Except he (or his corporation) has keys for almost all
| initiated chats on the Telegram network. Only the private chats
| are E2EE and they're not default and rather inconvenient
| because they don't sync between devices (unlike Signal's E2EE
| chats).
| mrtksn wrote:
| AFAIK Telegram isn't e2e for the interesting bits, that's the
| group chats etc.
|
| If I have to guess, I would say that the authorities would be
| interested in identities of some users and access to private
| group chats with shady stuff and Telegram would be able to
| provide these.
|
| These are probably already available to the Russian
| intelligence considering the low radiation levels in Pavel
| Durov's blood stream and no novichok experience.
| amai wrote:
| Maybe related:
|
| ,,Putin and Telegram Founder Durov in Baku at the Same Time"
|
| https://x.com/JAMnewsCaucasus/status/1825889800634733025
| alex00 wrote:
| It looks like the aim is just to compel him to give them admin
| access to Telegram.
|
| Because Telegram is the messenger that is used by the other side
| in the Ukraine war.
|
| They will invent all sorts of accusations. He will have to hand
| over Telegram, like the other guy handed over Binance.
| k1ndl1 wrote:
| Telegram is used heavily in both Ukraine & Russia. But I doubt
| it has anything to do with it.
| alex00 wrote:
| Between Ukraine and Russia, Telegram is the only choice for
| Russia.
|
| Ukraine has many many other options.
|
| What else is there for Russians to communicate with the outer
| world?
| selivanovp wrote:
| The problem is not with communication with the outer world.
| The problem with other messengers is that everything you
| type there is monitored by CIA/NSA and Ukraine has access
| to this information. Telegram right now is the only secure
| messenger that doesn't leak them data on Russian citizens.
| evilfred wrote:
| and the Russian govt has carte blanche access to
| Telegram. Russia invaded their sovereign neighbour
| Ukraine who the f cares about their forums for messaging.
| yawn.
| cpursley wrote:
| Any source for this?
|
| He hasn't lived in Russia for a decade. From what I
| understand the reason he left is because he refused to
| give them access. He'd prob be arrested there at the
| airport as well.
|
| I'm guessing you're in SMS-land (USofA) where telegram
| (nor WhatsApp) never really caught on? Because telegram
| is HUGE outside of the US and China, including Ukraine.
| valianteffort wrote:
| I watched an expose on drone use in Ukraine and it appear
| they are using discord of all services...
| alex00 wrote:
| Bad operational security. Still it is them communicating
| with each other using Discord. They use Telegram to
| communicate with the masses.
| jnurmine wrote:
| Based on media reports, Telegram has been continually used by a
| hostile autocratic government to recruit, organize and direct
| various gray-zone attacks against Europe, on European soil.
|
| Now it sounds like Europe finally put the foot down.
|
| And why wouldn't they?
| boutique wrote:
| Telegram is also one of the very few places where ordinary
| Russians can read alt-news and not only Kremlin-approved
| propaganda. And Russia's stringent internet censorship is
| only tightening as years go by.
| lolinder wrote:
| I don't normally do this because I think it's normally bad
| practice, but in this context it's worth noting:
|
| This account seems particularly interested in the Ukraine war,
| in particular with representing the Russian side. They've done
| very little with this account besides post anti-Ukraine
| content, and I would take their opinions on the Telegram-
| Ukraine war connection with a grain of salt.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I really have no idea why you think this is worth noting;
| they've only posted a few times, and haven't once said a
| negative thing about Ukraine or Ukrainians.
|
| Also, you don't have to tell people to take the opinions of
| anonymous strangers with a "grain of salt." It's weird.
| afroboy wrote:
| I hope they're not after content that goes against Israel agenda,
| the Brave Mujahedeen in Palestine they don't have much access to
| social media since they're banned on all mainstream platforms but
| Telegram.
|
| And i believe France with world police are going against those
| channels.
|
| Sad day to free speech.
| slinky6 wrote:
| Wouldn't be surprising if jewish power wants to shut it down
| just like what they're doing to tiktok.
| thamer wrote:
| From the article, that's a massive pile of charges they're
| dumping onto him, all apparently because people use Telegram in
| ways the French state disapproves of?
|
| > Why was he under threat of a search warrant? > The justice
| department considers that the lack of moderation, lack of
| cooperation with law enforcement, and the tools offered by
| Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) make him an
| accomplice to drug trafficking, pedo-criminal offenses and fraud.
| mdhb wrote:
| A French citizen running a service in France is going to be
| subject to French laws and can expect to be arrested when they
| step into the country of France if they have charges pending.
|
| This isn't some grand conspiracy theory.
| llm_trw wrote:
| >A ~French~ Chinese citizen running a service in ~French~
| Chinese is going to be subject to ~French~ Chinese laws and
| can expect to be arrested when they step into the country of
| ~French~ Chinese if they have charges pending.
|
| >This isn't some grand conspiracy theory.
|
| Funny that when the wrong country does it it's tyranny. When
| a Western country does it it's the rule of law.
|
| Especially when they are the exact same thing.
| the_duke wrote:
| Do you have any concrete examples where this would apply?
| (person getting arrested in China over an offered service)
|
| If not, this is just whataboutism.
|
| I can't think of any, to be honest.
| llm_trw wrote:
| Please reread what I wrote.
| johndunne wrote:
| I reread what you wrote and I think it's fair to say that
| you're deferring to a 'whataboutism'. If you can provide
| actual examples of what you're talking about, then an
| intellectual argument/discussion could be formed.
| cdchn wrote:
| I wonder what his gameplan was trying to become a French
| citizen in the first place.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...
|
| Bingo!
| gtvwill wrote:
| Well of you provide a service and it's knowingly used by
| criminals and you just implement features to benefit the
| criminal activity but make no effort to curb it. Yes, your an
| accomplice.
| IncandescentGas wrote:
| Would you arrest a road worker because the highway onramp
| they just repaved was used by bank robbers to flee the scene
| of the crime?
| seszett wrote:
| To get the analogy straight, they would definitely arrest
| the CEO of the roadworks company if the road was letting
| robbers through but hindering law enforcement and the CEO
| was refusing to make the changes legally asked of them to
| mitigate the problem, yes.
| vrc wrote:
| If the road worker built features that specifically
| provided an oversized benefit to the bank robbing community
| in general, you'd definitely investigate the worker or
| construction company
| 13415 wrote:
| Your characterization fits basically any encryption program,
| including PGP and SSL connections by a web browser.
| linotype wrote:
| So much for "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite". I wonder if this will
| help push founders more to the US.
| whatnotests2 wrote:
| Is this real?
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Yeah Reuters has it too:
| https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-...
|
| No source on what the warrant is about though.
|
| FWIW I really like Telegram and pay for it, I hope it will get
| cleared up soon.
| k1ndl1 wrote:
| Durov has a French passport, so he will be charged as a French
| citizen. What is weird is that he sure knew that he was on the
| watchlist in France, though he has chosen to go there. Why?
| artembugara wrote:
| I don't understand how his passport changes the whole thing?
|
| France can and will charge anyone on its territory no matter
| what passport you hold.
| martinbaun wrote:
| Usually courts are a lot more lenient with foreign citizens.
| Try to get jailed in Mexico as an French citizen - pretty
| hard unless you do obvious bad stuff.
| qingcharles wrote:
| From what I've seen, it's the opposite. Nobody wants an
| outsider coming into their territory and committing a
| crime. And it also makes you a flight risk, so that's going
| to factor badly into any pre-trial detention.
| qayxc wrote:
| Hybris. Some people once they have reached a certain level of
| status and wealth see themselves as untouchable.
| codedokode wrote:
| They claim that criminals use Telegram, but it is not the best
| choice for doing crime because Telegram requires a phone number
| to sign up, and a phone number can be linked to identity and full
| location history (telcos record full location history for every
| number).
|
| However, Telegram might be involved in cooperating with
| criminals; for example by not deleting channels related to
| protests against government at govt's request, by not blocking
| channels of allegedly spreading misinformation Western media like
| BBC. This is indeed illegal in Russia.
| rcxdude wrote:
| Also it's e2e is a bit of a joke because it's so easy to fall
| back to the non-e2e path (basically no-one uses it)
| mdhb wrote:
| You seem to be rather confused about the current thinking and
| capabilities of criminal groups.
|
| Requiring a phone number most certainly isn't some fool proof
| method in the way you are claiming.
| 0x_rs wrote:
| Fraudsters have access to a near-infinite supply of phone
| numbers. It is only an annoyance for the average user trying to
| legitimately access a service and only helps prevent the
| smallest and least prepared criminals. But it's true that for
| 1:1 communication or not having to reach a broad audience there
| should be better alternatives.
| tokai wrote:
| Prepaid sim cards, bought with cash by mules, make the phone
| number requirement completely inefficient.
| lovegrenoble wrote:
| Russophobia in all its glory...
| oligarchdemon wrote:
| Imagine if he was arrested in Russia. The narrative would be he's
| a hero, not a pedo enabler.
| kkfx wrote:
| Many people outside AND INSIDE France still have not much
| understood that the current government have transformed a step at
| a time the Republic in a ready-for-a-full-coup fascist state, for
| those who can read french I suggest trying:
|
| - https://www.senat.fr/leg/tas22-148.pdf page 43 bottom, or
| searching "requisition de toute personne"
|
| - https://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl22-569.pdf with a good intervention
| from an LFI MEP, Ugo Bernalicis who is DEFINITIVELY worth to hear
| https://youtu.be/PDG9V01jPUs
|
| Just to cite the relatively recent more stunning move. But there
| was many in the less recent past (starting from police
| surveillance, impunity and so on) not counting the current delay
| to DENIED the last legislative elections results...
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| https://www.francetvinfo.fr/replay-radio/le-vrai-du-faux/le-...
| kkfx wrote:
| I've linked the laws actually existing, anyone can read
| what's in and take a personal conclusion. These laws are
| clearly a base for a coup, no matter how PR rhetoric can try
| to justify that.
| mmsc wrote:
| Just think: all the companies that do illegal shit and get slaps
| on the wrist with a few thousand/million dollar fines. That's the
| only "consequence" for the executives that blew up the economy in
| 2008, the politicians that are in cahoots with company executives
| to funnel money into their pockets, the companies that spy on
| their own employees without due diligence or cause, the producers
| of products that knowingly cause cancer, the producers of
| medicine that knowingly destroys lives, the decision-makers that
| destroy engineering standards resulting in airplanes falling from
| the skies with hundreds of helpless people being blown to pieces,
| and the companies that destroy the planet with actions that can
| never be reversed.
|
| And instead they arrest the CEO of a company that provides a
| mechanism for people to talk to one another.
| ProAm wrote:
| We can be honest and the government realizes that it's not just
| talking. At least for the conversations they are concerned
| about. *EDIT* I dont agree with it, but Ive seen governments do
| far worse with far less.
| rdmreader3319 wrote:
| I can assure you they are not concerned by illegal drugs and
| crime as every single french city is gangrened by drug
| dealers and thugs. But they really don't like free speech.
| ProAm wrote:
| Governments want control and intelligence. Im not saying
| the did this legally or valid like but I can see exactly
| why they did it. Same with Assange... The government was
| tired of dealing with his bs, legal or not.
| codedokode wrote:
| Telegram is not a police and not a court though; it doesn't
| need to search and identify illegal content. And how can you
| call something illegal without court's decision?
| underlogic wrote:
| Ok let's arrest some telco CEOs. Plenty of criminals still
| call
| llm_trw wrote:
| And you can send encrypted SD cards through the mail.
|
| Arrest all postwomen.
| ProAm wrote:
| Governments want control and intelligence. Im not saying
| the did this legally or valid like but I can see exactly
| why they did it. Same with Assange... The government was
| tired of dealing with his bs, legal or not.
| mmsc wrote:
| Airlines do not search people's baggage for drugs. Postage
| services do not search people's packages for drugs.
| ProAm wrote:
| Governments want control and intelligence. Im not saying
| the did this legally or valid like but I can see exactly
| why they did it. Same with Assange... The government was
| tired of dealing with his bs, legal or not.
| martinbaun wrote:
| Can't have people talking to eachother, they might find out
| something they shouldnt.
| yangff wrote:
| humor
| flumpcakes wrote:
| The quality of posts in this thread are unusually low for Hacker
| News. Is this place being brigaded? Extremely uncharitable
| readings and frankly conspiracy theories everywhere.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Edit: Oops it was already posted, sorry. I should have known. I
| checked but I forgot to check the 'new' page :( My apologies.
|
| FWIW I really like Telegram, I hope it will get cleared up soon.
| lovegrenoble wrote:
| Already deleted...
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341353
| enlyth wrote:
| Not deleted, just suddenly demoted to the 4th page. It's that
| broken HN algorithm that randomly messes up the front page
| for no reason.
| lolinder wrote:
| Otherwise known as the flame war detector, which does a
| decent job of keeping flame wars off the front page but
| occasionally has to be fixed by a mod when it kicks in
| incorrectly.
|
| Moderation is hard, and HN actually does a pretty good job
| all things considered.
|
| Edit: it's already back.
| perihelions wrote:
| It pains me to agree, but this is quite right: for every
| important developing story that gets erased like this,
| there's like 500 nonsense flamewars that guaranteed you
| don't want to read, that get erased by the same
| heuristic. It's genuinely tuned well.
|
| (I'll never agree with HN's title-editing bot though.
| That thing's cray).
| lolinder wrote:
| Hah, agreed on the title editing bot.
| dang wrote:
| (This was originally posted in aother thread
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41341873) that we merged
| hither.)
| vizzah wrote:
| A most likely outcome now is that a deal will be made to avoid
| jail time and he'll let EU do the backdoors or whatever they were
| asking politely first.
|
| Telegram has also tried to distance itself from TON crypto token,
| but it is so obvious how it still serves the original Durov's
| vision and controlled by a team of founders (aka initial token
| holders), now proofing their stakes for a supposedly
| decentralized blockchain to operate.
|
| It's not a wise idea to run "uncensored" messenger where a lot of
| shit happens and also offer it's users built-in non-government-
| surveilled payment methods.
| martinbaun wrote:
| Another reason not to go to France. It was once such a beautiful
| country
| antibios wrote:
| There are many parts to government but the French are actually
| sponsors of matrix. So one would have believed that they agreed
| with secure communications.
|
| https://element.io/case-studies/tchap
| mynegation wrote:
| And now this story has disappeared from the HN home page
| malfist wrote:
| It's literally #2 right now
| felurx wrote:
| Not directly related to the arrest, but to Durov:
|
| His Telegram channel is somewhat odd. It's a mix of what you'd
| expect (updates / general stuff about Telegram), some slightly
| weird stuff (highly praising countries he visited or talking
| about his oh-so-high-quality sperm and how he's the biological
| father of "over 100" kids), and then there's just shilling for
| some random watch-ads-to-get-coins things or whatever that
| totally aren't scams built on Telegram's new mini-app thing and
| TON (which is Telegram's cryptocurrency that they can't legally
| sell as theirs). You can take a look for yourself here:
| https://t.me/s/durov
| souvlakee wrote:
| He's an interesting but odd man. It's rare to see him fully
| dressed on his Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/durov. I
| expected him to remove his clothes during Carlson's interview,
| but he didn't.
| iscoelho wrote:
| It definitely takes effort to stay that fit. Nothing wrong
| with being proud of the way you look (:
| iscoelho wrote:
| 1) Updates/general makes sense as you say.
|
| 2) "Praising countries" aka focusing on increasing the reach of
| Telegram, similar to Zuckerberg with Facebook.
|
| 3) "biological father of "over 100" kids" is quite the mildly
| interesting fact. It's unsurprising for an individual in his
| position to be a little eccentric.
|
| 4) "shilling for some random watch-ads-to-get-coins" aka
| focusing on increasing engagement with the Telegram app
| ecosystem that directly benefits Telegram.
|
| All make sense to me.
| hello_computer wrote:
| Jack, Pavel, Zucc... all security-state agents, just different
| states. Anything centralized, or at least centrally
| intermediated is full-blown AIDS. I don't like _why_ they
| arrested him, but he had it coming regardless.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Next thing you know the UK is going to arrest Elon Musk for he
| let people complain about the rate of rapes and killings going up
| in the UK.
|
| Or maybe the EU is going to arrest Elon Musk for he refused the
| mafia-tactic of the EU commission (where they offered him a
| bargain: _" Let us censor any content we want and in exchange we
| promise no fines"_).
|
| Both the EU and the UK are on very dangerous trajectories: they
| are falling into totalitarian states at an alarmingly fast pace.
|
| Actually: I do think they're already totalitarian states.
|
| As an EU citizen I'm looking at my options to buy passports and
| GTFO of here.
| mrinfinitiesx wrote:
| While on the subject of Telegram, check this out:
| https://github.com/simplex-chat
| wkat4242 wrote:
| "100% private" claims always make me incredibly suspicious
| since it is impossible to achieve that. Security is a matter of
| threat modeling against an expected adversary and nothing
| protects against a serious interest from a state level actor.
|
| This is why I don't really care that Telegram doesn't do E2EE
| by default. Most of my chats aren't that interesting and in my
| threat model it's good enough.
| mrinfinitiesx wrote:
| I don't disagree. It's just another messenger. Just a 'check
| it out'
| ndarray wrote:
| Why was the other thread removed? It was #1 on the main page.
| _Microft wrote:
| The discussion you are thinking about is neither dead nor
| flagged. Overly active discussions get downranked
| automatically:
|
| ,, _Other factors affecting rank include user flags, anti-abuse
| software,_ software which demotes overheated discussions,
| _account or site weighting, and moderator action._ ", see
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
| 627467 wrote:
| so. why not this one?
| theAkomolafe wrote:
| This is an insanely big developing story.
| deadmutex wrote:
| > This is an insanely big developing story.
|
| For people in tech
| option wrote:
| Telegram is used by hundreds of millions in Europe and Middle
| East
| fieryscribe wrote:
| And East Asia, especially Hong Kong since 2019.
| deadmutex wrote:
| Yep, and I have yet to see evidence of this being a huge
| story for those people. He's no Messi or Bieber or Swift.
| foverzar wrote:
| > I have yet to see evidence of this being a huge story
| for those people
|
| Can you honestly claim that you keep in touch with those
| people?
|
| I mean, this is an english-speaking us-centric forum. It
| is somewhat atypical for people here to actually know
| what happens outside this bubble.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| 3 of his kids are in Moscow. Under Putin's control.
|
| Pavel Durov tries to play the "victim" to create a legitimate
| image for himself and Telegram.
| boutique wrote:
| Self-admittedly he has over 100 children. OTOH, Telegram's DCs
| are in: the US, the Netherlands and in Singapore [0] and he was
| just arrested in the EU.
|
| So I don't follow how you've made a connection between Putin
| and (Putin's?) "(fake?) victim" Durov.
|
| [0] https://docs.pyrogram.org/faq/what-are-the-ip-addresses-
| of-t...
| evilfred wrote:
| telegram is compromised by Russia
| https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
| sunaookami wrote:
| Says a US mouthpiece. These discussion get so tiring.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| What about Signal?
|
| What about Messenger and Whatsapp, also end-to-end encrypted?
|
| Will they be arrested?
|
| Is this the end of end-to-end encryption chats?
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| EU themselves recommend Signal. That is even stronger as it is
| end-to-end encrypted by default.
|
| https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-to-staff-switc...
|
| >The European Commission has told its staff to start using
| Signal, an end-to-end-encrypted messaging app, in a push to
| increase the security of its communications.
| bigbones wrote:
| Except for any media you post which end up as a unique key
| behind CloudFlare or Google Cloud load balancers. They may not
| reveal your chats, but they certainly export your metadata
| (i.e. list of devices fetching and putting a key) to the worst
| possible parties
| compiler1410 wrote:
| From my experience those charges are valid and well deserved. As
| a Telegram user since 2015, I've spent 2 years actively reporting
| groups and individuals in posession of explicit materials
| involving children and animals. Some of my friends have also
| joined me in this effort. Unfortunately, Telegram never banned
| any of those groups and individuals which is a textbook case of
| not only being an accessory to crime, but also being complicit in
| letting the crime go on.
| ein0p wrote:
| "You'll wear yourselves out swallowing dust, running around the
| courts to unblock the assets." (c) Vladimir Putin when persuading
| Russian oligarchs to repatriate their wealth. Turns out he was
| right.
| gck1 wrote:
| Funny story - there were some protests in my country some months
| ago. We're a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a
| dictatorship. During the protests, the government used masked
| 'civilians,' or what you'd call 'titushkis,' to beat up activists
| at their home addresses or elsewhere in public. We were also
| getting calls from fake numbers on our personal numbers with
| threats.
|
| A channel was created on Telegram by a government propaganda
| journalist, where they basically dox every activist, posting
| their addresses, phone numbers, and other private details, at
| times when these details are actively used for beating people to
| near death. That's the only content that Telegram channel
| produces.
|
| I was one of the people whose details were posted on that
| channel. My phone number, home address, etc., were posted there,
| along with the private details of tens of others. I contacted
| Telegram support multiple times, we mass reported the channel -
| not once have I gotten an answer, and the entire channel is still
| up, for nearly 4 months.
|
| So, hearing that he's arrested for lack of moderation? Good. I'm
| very happy. Hope he learns a lesson.
|
| EDIT: Country is Georgia
| mmsc wrote:
| In case anybody was wondering, OP is talking about Georgia the
| country.
| floam wrote:
| Ukraine? That's the only context I've read the term titushkis.
| But those were used against Euromaiden protesters and with what
| happened since, plus the given n month timelines, that just
| doesn't make sense.
| gck1 wrote:
| Georgia. They used same tactics, so that's why I also call
| them titushkis.
| Svoka wrote:
| Titushki is tool of russian world politicians to deal with
| descent. They are used all over the place.
| cypress66 wrote:
| What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use to
| censor people. It goes both ways.
| bryant wrote:
| > What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use
| to censor people. It goes both ways.
|
| The veracity of this claim aside, posting this as a reply to
| someone who just shared their own experience getting doxxed
| in a country where victims have legitimate grounds to fear
| for their lives... feels a little out of place.
|
| Also, usually the dictatorships abuse the censors once their
| grasp is firm. Until then, they're typically abusing the lack
| of censorship for their own ends. We see that here in the US
| with troll farms abusing limited content moderation around
| misinformation to sway public opinion with falsehoods.
| Countries are trying to pull the US election in both
| directions right now this way.
| gck1 wrote:
| Since perchlorate's comment is now dead, and yours is
| similar, going to reply here.
|
| I do agree to some extent. Having tools to challenge a
| dictatorship that cannot be silenced can indeed become
| invaluable. However, there is a significant difference
| between responsible moderation, which aims to protect
| individuals' safety, and full-blown censorship. While it can
| be a slippery slope, the absence of moderation shouldn't
| leave users defenseless against doxxing and threats, which
| can have real, harmful, and even deadly consequences. There
| must be some form of balance. From my experience, it feels
| like Telegram lacks any moderation whatsoever, which
| represents another extreme. I assume, though, that they must
| be enforcing some level of moderation for things like CP,
| since governments typically, really do not tolerate a no
| moderation policy in such areas.
|
| I would say that being on this extreme end, Telegram has
| actually opened itself up to government scrutiny. If there
| had been some form of responsible moderation, governments
| might not have found enough grounds to justify their actions.
| The absence of any moderation means that governments can use
| full force and indeed justify it, potentially damaging the
| very area of free speech that Telegram aims to protect.
| a0123 wrote:
| This and the sexual blackmail the network fully permits.
| Although it's my understanding they have been doing slightly
| better when it comes down to children (the fact it was made
| possible in the first place is unbelievable though).
|
| Not counting the pro-Israeli channels posting details of anti-
| genocide activists and encouraging violence (and sometimes
| openly putting bounties on activists' heads). All constantly
| reported yet no action is taken.
|
| There have been so many things this guy has allowed for years,
| believing he could act (or fail to act) with total impunity
| because of his fortune. Hell, he got offered a French passport
| because Macron used to be a big Telegram fan (might still be).
| It's absolutely incredible he was so brazen he would just
| travel to France because there is absolutely no way he wasn't
| aware he could be held liable (especially considering recent EU
| legislation), he probably just believed he was above the law.
| hintymad wrote:
| Wouldn't in this case the culprit is that Georgia didn't have
| rule of law? Yes, Telegram didn't help and ignored your plea,
| but prosecuting the owner for the presumed malice? I'm not sure
| how that will go well in the long run.
| Grammrr wrote:
| And what app was used by the protestors to communicate with one
| another?
| Svoka wrote:
| Unfortunately telegram actively engaging with russian
| govenment. Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool
| itself.
| mrtksn wrote:
| No moderation + anonymity is very nasty.
|
| IMHO people unfairly come on you about your expectation for
| moderation.
|
| What often happens is, you lose your anonymity and get
| personally attacked by people in position of impunity.
|
| That should not be a thing.
| vzaliva wrote:
| Well, this is the consequence of Telegram's poor privacy choices.
| Most chats are not end-to-end encrypted, and they could have
| access to their content. This makes them liable when they refuse
| governments' requests for such information. It also raises the
| question of whether they have given such access to other
| governments like Russia (coincidentally, Durov was in Baku at the
| same time Putin was visiting, and there is speculation that they
| may have met).
|
| In contrast, Signal does not have access to any chats or user
| information (except the timestamp of when users last logged in)
| and could not be forced to wiretap.
| qingcharles wrote:
| They went full Ulbricht on him: terrorism, drugs, fraud, money
| laundering, piracy and involvement with child exploitation.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| I'm already never travelling to England. Will I also add France
| to that list? We'll see.
| cabirum wrote:
| The "free world" took a new hostage.
| compiler-devel wrote:
| Indeed. I wouldn't travel to France, the UK, or any other
| oppressive regime in these times.
| dang wrote:
| We changed the URL from https://www.tf1info.fr/justice-faits-
| divers/info-tf1-lci-le-... to an article in English. If there's a
| better article in English, we can change it again.
| jfim wrote:
| One detail that's missing from the English article is why he
| got arrested.
|
| The French article mentions:
|
| Why was he under threat of a search warrant?
|
| The Justice considers that the absence of moderation,
| cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by
| Telegram (disposable numbers, cryptocurrencies...) makes him an
| accomplice to drug trafficking, child-crime offenses and
| swindling.
| squidbeak wrote:
| > TF1 and BFM both said the investigation was focused on a
| lack of moderators on Telegram, and that police considered
| that this situation allowed criminal activity to go on
| undeterred on the messaging app.
|
| (From the reuters link)
| nextos wrote:
| Does this mean that according to EU, or France, E2E-encrypted
| platforms need to "cooperate" (provide backdoors)?
|
| Or does it refer to public channels only?
| mouse_ wrote:
| So they're going for the ISPs too, then? Considering the drug
| traffickers, child crime offenders and swindlers were
| actually paying the ISPs, NOT telegram.
| tamimio wrote:
| Just because he is the CEO doesn't mean he is directly
| liable. The company is a separate entity. I don't see anyone
| arresting Elon or other CEOs because of "not enough
| moderation." Most actions are to block platform access. There
| must be something else for sure.
| NoxiousPluK wrote:
| Thank you! There was no English article yet when I first posted
| this.
|
| There is now also
| https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-...
| cft wrote:
| Still interesting why it's only #8 on the front page, whereas
| higher posts have a lower votes per hour rate
| compiler1410 wrote:
| jannies being jannies
| compiler1410 wrote:
| >Billionaire CEO named namedson
|
| This isn't Slayers X.
|
| But on a serious note if he's a billionaire then he can drop
| the whole monetization schtick. Telegram has become unusuable
| in the last few years. There's crypto scam ads everywhere.
| sega_sai wrote:
| A bunch of people in comments here seem to misunderstand what
| telegram is. It is _not_ just a messaging app, it is essentially
| a platform like twitter, with channels, hundreds of thousands of
| subscribers to those. While I fully support E2EE communication
| with no back-doors, I think it is perfectly fair for governments
| to have some control to take down large channels that are clearly
| against the law. I do not know the true cause for the arrest, but
| I hope it is because of the latter not the former.
| megous wrote:
| Coincidentally or not, yesterday there was another sweeping ban
| of various Palestine related channels on Telegram across EU:
|
| https://x.com/SamidounPP/status/1827062901364208099
|
| So not sure what's the "terrorist" thing about, since various
| info channels definitely get blocked on telegram in EU. I can't
| for the life of me as an EU "citizen" even figure out who asks
| for these bans on behalf of the EU. Kinda doubt it's someone in
| my country, because it's reported as EU wide ban in this case.
| Maybe it's done by some overbearing country on this particular
| topic, like Germany, and Telegram just blocked it EU wide, for
| some reason.
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