[HN Gopher] US hospital told family their daughter had checked o...
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US hospital told family their daughter had checked out when in fact
she'd died
Author : howard941
Score : 129 points
Date : 2024-08-21 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _an autopsy that could have indicated whether there had been
| medical malpractice associated with her death was "rendered
| impossible", according to the lawsuit_
|
| This crosses into criminal liability.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| This is just horrible but I'm not surprised since I have read
| so many stories of malpractice recently, from the skull flap
| thing to the Texas hospital triple booking surgeons to other
| stuff
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| Triple booking surgeons? Do they think patients in need of
| surgeries are just going to up and cancel, and hospitals are
| behaving like airlines?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Lack of accountability leads to outcomes. As a patient, you
| don't know your trust is being violated (in this specific
| scenario).
|
| https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/texas-heart-
| surgeo...
|
| https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdtx/pr/texas-medical-center-
| in...
| malfist wrote:
| Texas also has "tort reform", limiting you to a maximum
| of $250k in damages. Good luck suing a big hospital for
| malpractice, you gotta pay the lawyer too out of that
| $250k.
| mandmandam wrote:
| > you gotta pay the lawyer too out of that $250k
|
| On average, a medical malpractice case might require
| anywhere from 500 to 1,000 hours of legal work, with more
| complex cases potentially requiring over 2,000 hours.
|
| Average lawyer cost in 2022 was $313/hr.
|
| So we're basically looking at, generously, 750 hrs x
| $300, or $225k to the lawyer.
|
| And that's just one side - the hospital presumably pays
| near the same.
|
| ... Huh.
|
| Once again, I am stunned at the American legal system
| being so obviously and cartoonishly evil.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| I hope that limit only applies to punitive damages. For
| medical malpractice in the US, actual damages could
| easily exceed $250k.
| phonon wrote:
| https://crosleylaw.com/blog/texas-personal-injury-law-
| change....
| voxic11 wrote:
| It applies to actual damages, specifically non-economic
| actual damages such as pain and suffering, mental
| anguish, and loss of companionship. It does not apply to
| economic actual damages such as lost wages and medical
| costs.
|
| Before tort reform punitive damages were already capped
| in Texas at a value twice the amount of economic damages
| plus the amount of non-economic damages, so tort reform
| does also have a effect of sometimes reducing punitive
| damages.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2024/06/25/baylo
| r...
|
| In Texas, three hospitals (Baylor St. Luke's Medical Center
| (BSLMC), Baylor College of Medicine (BCM) and Surgical
| Associates of Texas P.A. (SAT)) agreed to pay $15m as part
| of a settlement with the DOJ. These doctors/surgeons were
| booked for multiple simultaneous procedures that they could
| not have possibly conducted, even though they recorded
| things to make it look like they conducted all the
| surgeries. In reality many procedures were performed by
| unqualified residents and other caretakers and not who the
| patient was told would be performing the procedure.
|
| > To make it seem as if the teaching physicians were
| present during the "entire" operation, they would lie on
| medical records, the court filings say. The medical staff
| also would not tell patients that the surgeon planned on
| leaving the room to perform another operation, the
| documents continued.
|
| This only came out because of a whistleblower, and because
| the DOJ pursued it. It is nearly impossible for a patient
| to know if they are wronged or harmed this way because they
| are put under for these procedures, and because
| friends/family are typically not allowed to observe or
| record anything (likely to prevent accountability). And
| then there's the cost of lawsuits, the stress, and
| limitations under law (like tort reform in Texas) - it's
| just lucky that this was pursued by a government agency
| (DOJ).
|
| > Under the False Claims Act, the private whistleblower who
| reported the allegations will receive over $3 million from
| the settlement, the Justice Department said.
|
| We need more incentives like this, but we also need greater
| penalties and jail time for the practitioners and literally
| everyone who knew. They should be investigating who was in
| the room, what was recorded in logs, and who accessed
| records, and go after all of them. Right now, this
| settlement achieves nothing. Some articles claimed that
| these hospitals made more than $150 million off these
| procedures for which they are settling the lawsuit for just
| $15 million.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| More common than you think.
|
| A lot of hospital care is done by residents with surgeons
| overseeing and stepping in for the most difficult parts.
|
| Our healthcare system would literally collapse without
| residents doing the heavy lifting. It won't change until we
| stop artificially limiting the supply of doctors or give
| mid level practitioners more power.
| CatWChainsaw wrote:
| Or both, both would be nice.
|
| Until then I guess we all just have to make sure we never
| need to use the healthcare system we all pay so much for.
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Dare I ask about "the skull flap thing"?
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/lawsuit-claims-emory-lost-
| pa...
|
| Basically they had to cut into someone's skull as part of a
| surgery. They did not label and catalog skull parts
| properly. Because they lost the skull part they had to use
| a synthetic skull flap, and they charged the patient for
| it. The synthetic flap caused an infection. The patient was
| on the hook for something like $150K for all of this (the
| synthetic part, the procedure of placing it, the infection)
| which was due to the hospital's own criminal negligence. An
| investigated showed that the hospital was not properly
| labeling and cataloging parts for many patients and
| basically had a mess of random skull parts that would not
| make their way back to all those patients, so it is a
| systemic issue and not just an unfortunate one off mistake.
| All of this is alleged and there is a lawsuit pending, but
| it seems to me like the part about a systemic issue of
| mishandled parts is confirmed.
| sva_ wrote:
| Sounds like material for the next Dr. Death season. The
| first two seasons were both pretty great.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| I'm glad we pay for the most expensive medical care in the world
| in the US. That's what keeps the quality so high.
| realo wrote:
| Sorry but I think you pay for the most expensive _doctors_ in
| the world...
|
| It would seem that the actual care you receive is only remotely
| related to that.
| bourbonjuggler wrote:
| _" Dignity Health, which operates Mercy San Juan..."_
|
| It appears they need a name change after this lawsuit
| LiquidSky wrote:
| As usual when entities have these noble names, they don't mean
| your or my dignity.
| evantbyrne wrote:
| Low quality places have the most absurd names in this
| country. For example, there is a trailer park nearby with a
| "Manor Lane". At least they put it by "Shady Lane" to balance
| expectations.
| Aloha wrote:
| any apartment complex that advertises 'luxury' is by
| definition not.
| The_Blade wrote:
| Blind date with the chancer
|
| We had oysters and dry lancers
|
| And the check when it arrived we went dutch, dutch, dutch,
| dutch
|
| A redder shade of neck on a whiter shade of trash
|
| And this emory board is giving me a rash
|
| I'm flat out
|
| You're so beautiful to look at when you cry
|
| Freeze, don't move
|
| You've been chosen as an extra in the movie adaptation of
| the sequel to your life
| ljm wrote:
| Sanatoriums, asylums, mental institutes, and retirement
| homes... all called Mount Pleasant.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| Dignity health is god awful. I've never had a good experience
| with them.
| HorizonXP wrote:
| I read the headline expecting that it was a simple
| misunderstanding or clerical error, with limited impact to within
| 24 hours.
|
| The article is so much worse and the headline buries the lede. I
| would be horrified. My condolences to the family.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| Completely agree. I can't imagine being lead on a wild goose
| chase looking for a loved one only to be told by police that
| said party lied to me. I guess there's a lesson here: talk with
| nurses. I'm sure some would toe the line but if something
| smells fishy, I'm sure someone will crack. Then again, maybe
| only one nurse would know the truth so it's may not be easy.
| smcin wrote:
| It's worse than that, it's like burying a double or even
| triple lede:
|
| - it's not just that the hospital told her family totally the
| wrong thing for a day or a year...
|
| - or even negligently cremated or buried her in a pauper's
| grave...
|
| - but they also mishandled the corpse, which IIUC is a
| misdemeanor (corpse desecration, which is a felony, might not
| apply), by shipping her decomposing body to an off-site
| warehouse morgue.
|
| - and failing to timely issue a death certificate or do an
| autopsy prevents determining whether there had been medical
| malpractice associated with her death.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| and _they_ didn 't even know she was dead - the death
| certificate was not completed until her body had been
| rotting in their facility for a year.
| bluSCALE4 wrote:
| I wonder if it's possible that she checked herself out but
| immediately died outside the hospital which would explain why the
| paper work was in order. I would not explain why after being
| ID'd, why family wasn't informed or how she was placed into
| offsite storage facility. Gross incompetence and criminal
| negligence. I hope the family gets the 5x the jury award as
| requested. Didn't know you could even do that.
| cogman10 wrote:
| > I wonder if it's possible that she checked herself out but
| immediately died outside the hospital
|
| I find that really unlikely.
|
| I mean, for starters, they had her body and knew it was her
| body in storage. That doesn't happen if they don't have IDs
| attached to the corpse. I find it unlikely that the hospital
| wouldn't be ringing the family like crazy because of a body
| they want to unload. Especially if they have the paperwork
| showing that she'd checked out. There'd be no reason not to
| almost immediately say "Hey, actually, we found her right
| outside the hospital dead, sorry for your loss".
|
| I'm guessing an obvious fuck up killed her like 10xing her
| insulin dosage by mistake. Or administering something other
| than insulin.
|
| And it wouldn't surprise me if, conveniently, 17 or 24 months
| just happens to be the retention policy for medical records.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > And it wouldn't surprise me if, conveniently, 17 or 24
| months just happens to be the retention policy for medical
| records.
|
| This was in California, where the law [0] is 7 years minimum,
| potentially more if the patient was a minor.
|
| AFAICT every state wants at least ~5 years of retention.
|
| [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/regulations/california/22-CCR
| -72...
| 015a wrote:
| Hospital management: "What new system or form can we add so our
| liability is limited in this happening again? Just one more
| e-signature bro, it'll work this time I swear, this is the one,
| just one more."
| khaki54 wrote:
| Crazy. I wonder if they made a mistake, somehow killing her, but
| thought she was indigent or mentally ill, and that's why they did
| all this. Then again, it sounds like she was treated many times
| by this hospital. I cannot fathom the circumstances where the
| actions after her death could have been a simple mistake, but
| they've had 16 months to come up with a story and destroy all the
| evidence, so we may never know the truth.
| jofer wrote:
| You'd be amazed how bad hospitals can be at keeping track of
| fairly critical things.
|
| I had a cousin who voluntarily checked himself into the hospital
| related to severe withdrawal symptoms (and had bouts of psychosis
| related to said with withdrawal - meth addictions are nasty). His
| mother stayed for awhile but had to leave for work. She was
| repeatedly guaranteed by multiple doctors and nurses that he
| could not check himself out and would be there for several days
| at least. They told her to come back the next morning.
|
| Late that night, he was discharged. Not even "he checked himself
| out". The hospital discharged him (and that's over an hour ride
| away from home, btw - no hospitals in rural areas these days).
|
| He had no phone and no wallet. According to staff, he tried to
| call his mother to pick him up, but couldn't remember her cell
| phone number (it had changed recently). He called his sister and
| left a message, but she was traveling and didn't get it until
| much later. According to the hospital, he tried to call several
| different numbers trying to get a ride home and they made him
| stop and made him leave. In a quite rough downtown area he was
| not familiar with. While clearly not in his right mind. At 2am.
| With no wallet, no phone, no nothing.
|
| The hospital had his mother's contact info. They did not give it
| to him even when he requested it. They did not attempt to contact
| her in any way.
|
| We still don't know what happened afterwards. His body was found
| four days later in the river and it had been there for awhile.
|
| Forcibly discharging someone under those circumstances and
| refusing to even contact their emergency contacts is beyond
| belief. I'm furious about it. Apparently it's common and not even
| something there's any recourse for.
| mrinfinitiesx wrote:
| Reading that makes me incredibly outraged. I'm sorry that
| happened and your family had to go through that.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| When I was a teenageer a school counselor incorrectly perceived
| me to be in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold (which
| stays on certain records for quite a while and can be
| incredibly disruptive, but that's besides the point) - for some
| reason I was sent almost 40 miles away in another county in a
| city I'd never been. The hospital doctors took one look at me
| and realized I didn't belong there, but to do a discharge
| apparently is a pretty lengthy process once this process is
| initiated - almost 20 hours later (again, being held completely
| against my will for no reason) they released me. I asked them
| where I was supposed to go and if I could call my dad. They
| said no, but they gave me two (2) bus tokens, which wasn't
| enough to get back where my car was parked at the school, plus
| I had no idea how to use the bus system in that county, and
| didn't have my glasses, phone, or wallet.
|
| I really don't know how long it took or how I made it, but many
| many hours later I made it back to my car. I had to beg for
| money and walk the last several miles once I recognized finally
| where I was. It really sucked, and ever since then I've had a
| great deal of sympathy for people that are churned through this
| terrible system and spit right back out with no dignity
| whatsoever, let alone empathy. This incident disrupted my life
| irreversibly (ended up missing tests and having to do a medical
| withdrawal from school, lost scholarships, etc) and derailed a
| lot of things I had wanted to do for many, many years. The
| hospital/medical care industrial complex doesn't optimize for
| empathy. They're just trying to get the bodies through as
| quickly as possible.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I'm sorry for your loss.
|
| Unfortunately, the staff "guaranteeing" he would not be
| discharged had no basis for their statement. Your brother was
| an adult. In most (all?) states, he cannot be forcibly kept at
| the hospital unless he has a court order for a involuntary
| treatment plan.
|
| This involves convincing a judge that the patient is at harm
| for leaving the facility. Generally, if the patient is
| cognizant it's extremely hard to force them into an involuntary
| hold. Sometimes patients will agree to a voluntary, involuntary
| hold to force themselves to commit to a treatment plan, but if
| they're fighting it from the start, it's hard to get it
| approved.
|
| Further, "he checked himself out" isn't necessarily a thing. He
| could leave against medical advice or he could have simply told
| the staff that he decided against treatment. They'd discharge
| him just like any other patient who no longer needs treatment.
|
| In general, a hospital cannot simply keep a patient if there's
| not medically necessary treatment. Occasionally, you'll see
| patients get discharged walk out the door then immediately walk
| right back into the ED. That being said, most patients are able
| to wait in the hospital premises (for a reasonable amount of
| time), until transportation can be arranged.
|
| A patient discharged in the middle of the night is not going to
| be literally kicked to the curb in the middle of the night.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| > A patient discharged in the middle of the night is not
| going to be literally kicked to the curb in the middle of the
| night.
|
| This does, very literally, happen. It _should not_ happen,
| and may even be directly against hospital rules, but it does
| happen.
|
| https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-filmed-on-street-in-
| hos...
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > A patient discharged in the middle of the night is not
| going to be literally kicked to the curb in the middle of the
| night.
|
| Oh, yes they are. They would have had on-site police drag me
| out if I didn't walk out myself.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Are you a hospital admin? Kindly fuck off with your universal
| "facts" which contradict the lived experience of the people
| you are talking to here.
|
| There are many, many facets to how medical is "supposed" to
| work; what happens in reality is often much different.
| egypturnash wrote:
| you: A patient discharged in the middle of the night is not
| going to be literally kicked to the curb in the middle of the
| night.
|
| the post you were responding to: [the hospital] made him
| leave. In a quite rough downtown area he was not familiar
| with. While clearly not in his right mind. At 2am. With no
| wallet, no phone, no nothing.
| nradov wrote:
| Los Angeles area hospitals routinely dumped patients until a
| lawsuit settlement a few years ago. I wouldn't be surprised
| if other hospitals are still kicking patients out today.
|
| https://abc7.com/good-samaritan-hospital-patient-dumping-
| hom...
| colechristensen wrote:
| Are they suing the hospital and care team for many millions of
| dollars? That's the level of neglect of responsibility that
| should get you enough money to own the hospital that did that
| kind of thing.
|
| I regularly have to aggressively bully medical care teams for
| myself and others to get them to do the right, obvious things.
|
| I do not trust doctors, they do not care to figure out
| problems, ignore so many people's problems, and make wildly
| stupid mistakes all of the time.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| > Are they suing the hospital and care team for many millions
| of dollars?
|
| Did you try clicking the link? They are. 5 million dollars. I
| expect they will win, and that still won't make them whole.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| You're replying to someone who in turn was asking the GP a
| question about their comment, not about the article.
| nostrademons wrote:
| I wonder how much this correlates with socioeconomic status.
|
| When my kids were born, the hospital had this incredibly
| elaborate, incredibly detailed checklists of things that needed
| to be in order before they would let you leave. Did you have a
| carseat? Did you have a ride home? Did the doctor come by and
| give you discharge instructions? Do you have all the belongings
| you came with? Did you fill out the birth certificate
| application? Have all your discharge papers been signed?
|
| They actually wouldn't let my wife walk herself down - they had
| to call Transport, and she had to be wheeled down in a
| wheelchair with the baby's carseat on her lap, and I had to be
| waiting at the designated curbside to pick her up. She was
| perfectly capable of walking herself down, and we were both
| capable of putting the carseat into the car in a normal parking
| spot, but everything had to be done in the presence of an
| orderly.
|
| This is the same health care company mentioned in the article,
| but at a pretty affluent suburb of Silicon Valley.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| None of those checklist things are done out of an interest in
| care - it is about avoiding liability.
| croes wrote:
| >Mercy San Juan hospital failed in its most fundamental duty to
| notify Jessie's family of her death
|
| Despite the misconduct, I think saving people's lives is the most
| fundamental duty of a hospital.
| dgfitz wrote:
| Yeah: "we failed at our one job" should have been IMMEDIATELY
| expressed to the family.
| EE84M3i wrote:
| This might sound silly, but technically speaking how does this
| kind of notification work in relation to HIPAA? Is there some
| kind of a carve out that allows hospitals to tell your family
| you've "been discharged against medical advice"? How does next of
| kin notification work for death?
|
| To put it another way, clearly the outcome in this story was
| unacceptable, but what was the correct outcome?
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