[HN Gopher] Calling All Hackers
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Calling All Hackers
        
       Author : picture
       Score  : 501 points
       Date   : 2024-08-21 02:08 UTC (20 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (phrack.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (phrack.org)
        
       | mrinfinitiesx wrote:
       | Conway's law
        
         | Terr_ wrote:
         | Gonna need more context for what part you're replying to.
        
       | defrost wrote:
       | Calling All Hackers | 2 points 15 hours ago |          Phrack 71
       | | 194 points 1 day ago |
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41296949         Calling All
       | Hackers | 7 points 1 day ago |          Phrack Issue #71 | 12
       | points 1 day ago |
        
         | rfl890 wrote:
         | It's worse formatted than dang's stuff, but ya tried
        
           | defrost wrote:
           | Given the opportunity to offer up a better template ya copped
           | out with a snide comment and didn't even try.
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
             | rfl890 wrote:
             | I was on mobile and didn't want to type out all that. An
             | example (dang usually posts comments like this on popular
             | submissions):
             | 
             | Related:
             | 
             |  _Post title_ -
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=XXXXXXXXX (date) | XX
             | comments
             | 
             |  _Different title_ -
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=XXXXXXXXX (date) | XX
             | comments
             | 
             | in order by date.
             | 
             | Such a comment provides useful information on previous
             | discussions (date posted, amount of comments). Your comment
             | seemed like it was simply calling out the fact that this
             | link was reposted a few times, which is unhelpful.
             | 
             | Apologies for being snide in my original comment.
        
         | nuancebydefault wrote:
         | What do you mean?
        
           | defrost wrote:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=phrack.org
        
       | kazcaptain wrote:
       | i like this take a lot, what I get is hacker = infinitely curious
       | individual
        
         | sureglymop wrote:
         | That's always been my interpretation of it! I would use the
         | term "insatiably curious" to describe it to people.
        
         | yetihehe wrote:
         | Just "infinitely curious individual" is a bookworm. Hacker
         | would also like to tinker with the rules underlying the systems
         | to see how things might break. So bookworm + tinkering + wants
         | to understand complex systems (hackers call it "to grok").
         | Systems - not only computer systems, also biological, physical
         | and any kind of complex assemblages of rules.
        
           | port19 wrote:
           | I personally prefer "infinitely creative individual", with
           | the non-artsy definition of creative: to create something
        
             | yetihehe wrote:
             | Still not specific enough and doesn't evoke hackers. I
             | consider myself a hacker but I don't consider myself
             | "infinitely" creative, just creative in technical areas. So
             | maybe technically creative individual? But those are more
             | like Makers.
        
               | squigz wrote:
               | No matter how you define "hacker", "argues about the
               | definition of 'hacker'" certainly should be included :)
        
         | bratwurst3000 wrote:
         | thats a good take . i would add " a person that wants to
         | understand how thinks work to manipulate them"
        
           | BlueTemplar wrote:
           | 'hacking' is commonly defined as "using tools for something
           | else than their initial purpose".
        
       | default-kramer wrote:
       | > The market is incentivized to deliver a product that meets the
       | minimum bar to meet that checkbox, while being useless. I invite
       | you to think of your favorite middleware or EDR vendors here. For
       | passionate security founders considering raising venture,
       | remember that this is what your "success" is being benchmarked
       | against.
       | 
       | > Do not swallow blackpills. It's easy to get really cynical and
       | think things are doomed
       | 
       | > Creating leverage for yourself. Hackers should not think of
       | themselves as "oh I am this little guy fighting Big Corporation"
       | or whatever. This is low agency behavior. Instead become the
       | corporation and RUN IT THE WAY YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE RUN.
       | 
       | Should I do it? Does this mean me? Obviously not, because I don't
       | know shit about EDR. But obviously neither does Crowdstrike. I
       | mean really, I couldn't possibly do any worse... right? Right? On
       | the internet, it's easy to feel outclassed. But IRL, a large
       | majority of people suck at their job. So in theory this should
       | work.
       | 
       | In practice, I guess I'm just blackpilled. For much less effort I
       | can get paid 6 figures for 2 hours of work per week. [Also, I
       | realize that winning at business is more difficult than I'm
       | implying. But if my former bosses, who didn't do much other than
       | yell at people and also drugs, could build a 25M/year business
       | then you probably can too.]
        
         | ganzuul wrote:
         | If your debt grows faster than your income you are blackpilled.
         | If you run a derivatives market in your head and nothing you
         | imagine can be boostrapped, you are blackpilled.
         | 
         | Crypto gets a lot of shit but social contracts made analyzable
         | as smart contracts is promising for ethical financial markets.
         | e.g. you could detect a debt spiral as a flow/loop/void
         | structure with renormalization groups and persistent homology.
         | When you can spot entities trying to create wage slaves from
         | 100 miles away you can focus your energy on being creative.
        
           | jcpham2 wrote:
           | Interesting thought experiment you've shared. Thanks now my
           | mind is running
        
             | ganzuul wrote:
             | If you get results I'd be curious to know. Peace.
        
           | jocaal wrote:
           | Do you mind expanding on the meaning of blackpilled. I am
           | struggling to make sense of your comment without that
           | context. Google brings up stuff to do with misogyny.
        
             | ganzuul wrote:
             | In the Matrix movie Neo took the blue pill or the red pill.
             | Taking the red pill meant Neo woke up and saw the Matrix
             | for what it was. IRL being "redpilled" then started to mean
             | you constructed a new world model which was critical of
             | power structures, which then turned into both misogyny and
             | misandry and pretty soon people realized this world model
             | they created had made them mentally ill. Then the
             | realization that they had constructed a new Matrix, worse
             | than the old, became the 'black pill'. IMO it's different
             | from nihilism because of the self-awareness and inability
             | to stop it from happening.
        
               | gen220 wrote:
               | I usually think of "red pill" as "You learn some piece of
               | information, the implications of which lead to your
               | perception of the world expanding in a large and
               | meaningful way that belies your earlier perception of the
               | world and forces a reassessment of prior experiences".
               | 
               | I think of "black pill" as a GMO'd red pill designed to
               | nudge the "learner" into a position of learned-
               | helplessness.
               | 
               | Take a common aphorism around here: "99% of startups
               | fail, so you shouldn't bother trying". The red pill is
               | "failure is the most common modality for new ventures",
               | but the attached advice makes it a black pill.
               | 
               | In a meta way, the linking of the term "red pill" to
               | misogyny/misandry turned the red pill concept itself into
               | a black pill (why bother seeking "red pills" if the
               | "community" most identified with them is so disturbing?).
        
             | spencerflem wrote:
             | The way its used in the article at least, to me means
             | having a view of the world that feels true and important
             | but is bleak and disempowering.
             | 
             | Like the sibling comment said, 'red pill' is seeing the
             | truth of the world (or, what the community that uses the
             | term red pill thinks is the truth at least. often this
             | refers to the truth as decided by internet mysoginiats).
             | Black pill is this truth + its unchangeable and hopeless
             | and pointless and why do anything and oh god I wish I could
             | go back to not knowing.
             | 
             | If its used by somebody reasonable, blackpill is a
             | pejorative with the implication that the ideology is more
             | cynical and hopeless than it really should be and has the
             | connotation that their ideology is a little too internety.
        
         | immibis wrote:
         | EDR vendors don't seem to know shit about EDR, either. You
         | could be one even if you don't know about EDR. It's all about
         | how you make your customers see you. That's what the article is
         | saying.
        
         | ActorNightly wrote:
         | It depends on what you value.
         | 
         | The catch22 is that if you are good at technology, you tend to
         | align your personal morals and character to actual true value,
         | not fake value, which makes you a pretty good anti-bullshit
         | filter. However people who align themselves to the concept of
         | making money are more aligned to working with the bullshit, not
         | seeing it as negative but as a part of life. Thats why your ex
         | bosses could build 25M business, and why you are blackpilled.
         | 
         | In the past, when there was room for innovation because things
         | haven't been invented yet, you could do both. Now, you
         | basically have to pick one or the other.
        
         | LoganDark wrote:
         | > But if my former bosses, who didn't do much other than yell
         | at people and also drugs, could build a 25M/year business then
         | you probably can too.
         | 
         | They're in a privileged position. Someone who's not already in
         | a privileged position can't necessarily get there just by
         | trying super hard.
        
       | benreesman wrote:
       | I'll cut the author some slack because the alternative is worse:
       | knowing things is better than an active posture of ignorance.
       | 
       | But let's take it easy on the gatekeeping that any of that is
       | even a little complicated.
       | 
       | Quantum chromodynamics is complicated: price-time precedence in
       | financial markets is flash cards.
        
         | TeMPOraL wrote:
         | Flash cards are not understanding, and it doesn't help that few
         | if anyone explains finance without a lot of handwaving and
         | magical thinking.
        
         | tux3 wrote:
         | I don't think the author is gatekeeping here. The way I read
         | your comment, you seem to be gatekeeping what is complicated
         | enough
         | 
         | 'Tis not a contest. Curiosity is its own reward.
        
         | sanderjd wrote:
         | The existence of more complicated things does not mean that
         | other things are not also complicated.
         | 
         | Financial markets that are open to the participation of
         | billions of people, amalgamating all the behavior of all those
         | participants, are complicated. Perhaps not nearly as
         | complicated as quantum chromodynamics, I dunno, but complicated
         | nonetheless.
        
       | Aleksdev wrote:
       | This whole thing comes off as very "edgy". We just like to tinker
       | with things. It's really not that deep for most of us.
        
         | dimator wrote:
         | phrack has always had this kind of article. i'm sure if you
         | grep for "A hacker is" or "the hacker ethos" you'll get a hit
         | for every phrack issue going back to the 80s.
        
           | larodi wrote:
           | Only thing I fail to understand is why a hacker needs to know
           | where to buy estrogen... I can more easily take the idea of
           | hacker knowing how to cook Molotov cocktails.
        
             | TZubiri wrote:
             | They may be hacking their own body to a binary that's
             | different from their source code
        
             | Retr0id wrote:
             | why not both?
        
             | Jaccca wrote:
             | That part is definitely not aimed at every reader, but it
             | is appropriately used to highlight how some might
             | circumvent the lengthy legal processes involved in getting
             | estrogen. Moreover, it points to the possible need for them
             | to compound it themselves which in turn makes them a
             | hacker.
        
             | bheadmaster wrote:
             | There have been hypotheses that a significant number of
             | trans women (i.e. biological men who identify as women) are
             | actually on the autism spectrum. Considering natural
             | tendency of autistic people to prefer isolated activities
             | and puzzles, there may be a correlation between hackers and
             | trans women.
        
               | newzisforsukas wrote:
               | > There have been hypotheses
               | 
               | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27872002/
               | 
               | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26753812/
               | 
               | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38803560/
               | 
               | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38831234/
        
               | bheadmaster wrote:
               | As with any novel phenomena, especially in sociology, it
               | is very hard to provide tangible evidence for anything.
               | If you demand nobody speaks of anything of sort without
               | hard evidence, rarely anything would ever be said.
        
               | newzisforsukas wrote:
               | > If you demand nobody speaks of anything of sort without
               | hard evidence, rarely anything would ever be said.
               | 
               | Eh, that is some bullshit, but there is evidence though.
               | I edited my comment to provide it, instead of asking you
               | to do so.
        
               | bheadmaster wrote:
               | > I edited my comment to provide it, instead of asking
               | you to do so.
               | 
               | Nice of you to do that. Thank you.
        
               | spencerflem wrote:
               | Even if this is true, it need not be either-or. Saying
               | that they are 'actually' autistic seems to imply that you
               | do not believe that they are 'actually' trans.
        
               | mensetmanusman wrote:
               | It doesn't seem that way with a charitable reading.
        
               | leptons wrote:
               | Might also depend on how you define "hacker". Most people
               | don't know the true meaning of the word, and should be
               | using "cracker" instead.
        
               | hluska wrote:
               | What's with this 'biological men' stuff? How would you
               | define that and what about chromosomal abnormalities like
               | XXY or XYY people? If I have Jacob's syndrome and a penis
               | am I biologically male or something else entirely?
               | Explain.
               | 
               | If you just want to have silly ideas about trans people,
               | that's fine because I'm done arguing with people over
               | that. It's a huge waste of time to get that interested in
               | another person's genitals but you do you. However if
               | you're going to use something as silly as 'biological
               | male' you have to support that.
        
             | gosub100 wrote:
             | A few years ago I freaked out the Reddit moderators on a
             | sub called /r/bodymods , which was, ostensibly, about
             | _modifying_ your _body_ , when I asked about the
             | feasibility of doing ones own liposuction.
             | 
             | I'm not saying that's a good or bad idea from a medical
             | perspective, but I certainly was off-put by their hypocrisy
             | at shutting me down and their myopic definition of "body
             | mods" which apparently to them was just poking holes in
             | their face.
        
               | UniverseHacker wrote:
               | Unless you think/say/repeat the same things as everyone
               | else on a subreddit you get downvoted and shadowbanned.
               | It has the most aggressive and militant groupthink
               | culture I've seen anywhere, which makes it pretty useless
               | for trying to learn new things or share new ideas.
               | 
               | If you have any type of niche hobby for example, and
               | someone finds a new and better way of doing something,
               | they will pretty much universally be attacked and
               | censored.
        
             | UniverseHacker wrote:
             | This is only an example of the type of thing a hacker would
             | do- a hacker is willing to solve problems on their own on
             | their own even if it requires methods that are illegal,
             | dangerous, or complex.
             | 
             | A lot of people throw their hands up and give up when they
             | need an expensive medication they can't get prescribed but
             | in general you can often buy them overseas, grey market,
             | make them yourself, etc.
        
               | UniverseHacker wrote:
               | Replying to awooooo who was flagged dead:
               | 
               | > They want it, but it's not a necessity.
               | 
               | What a person "needs" is complex and individual. Unless
               | you are their doctor or are paying for it, your opinion
               | of what medications a person needs is irrelevant- it is
               | absolutely none of your business.
               | 
               | This nit-picking is in no way central to my point as it
               | was a general statement about hacker culture ethos not
               | any particular person or medication, so why did you post
               | it? With only two comments so far - It appears you joined
               | HN just to share anti-trans bigotry? That isn't okay.
               | This is not a "hate forum" - accepting people that are
               | different is a fundamental aspect of hacker and HN
               | culture.
        
               | UniverseHacker wrote:
               | @awooooo - nonsense, you have people minding their own
               | business and being themselves, and you don't approve so
               | you are insulting them, and trying to say they need to
               | hide who they are or be different. That is just plain old
               | bigotry. Being trans doesn't hurt of affect other women
               | in any way.
               | 
               | I'm willing to bet you are different in some way that
               | isn't acceptable to others, so you feel the need to hide
               | it out of fear, or hoping for acceptance. It's true of
               | most people, and the fact that people need to hide
               | themselves is awful.. and what you are contributing to
               | here.
               | 
               | I'm not trans but I am neurodivergent in a way that I
               | can't hide, and was bullied and attacked for being
               | different a lot of my life. Bigots that only know of one
               | way people can be different would call me "queer" when
               | they cornered me in the school hallway in groups to try
               | to hurt me. Luckily for me, I'm a strong guy, and even
               | being in groups they usually had a worse time of it than
               | I did. I understand what that is like, and don't wish it
               | on anyone. I want a world where people can mind their own
               | business as themselves without hiding and without awful
               | people trying to shame or attack them.
        
             | immibis wrote:
             | I see you have only met a narrow subset of hackers.
        
             | AdamH12113 wrote:
             | Estradiol valerate (which is what the article actually
             | names) seems to be used for a wide variety of female
             | reproductive health issues, especially when (as the article
             | suggests) it's compounded with other drugs. It's also used
             | by transgender people as a hormone therapy. A hacker might
             | live in a place where gender-affirming healthcare is
             | illegal or unavailable, or where female reproductive
             | healthcare in general is difficult or expensive to obtain.
             | 
             | Reproductive healthcare is much more broadly useful than
             | Molotov cocktails.
        
           | easterncalculus wrote:
           | The people in those past articles weren't crypto startup
           | CEOs, or startup CEOs at all most of the time.
        
         | 0xEF wrote:
         | Phrack's tendency toward the edgy sentiment aside, I sort of
         | understand it. Sort of.
         | 
         | I grew up in the era of BBSs, microcomputers giving way to full
         | desktops in the US and payphones we're still slightly
         | interesting. though phreaking was sadly in its final days. I
         | also had (and have) severe social anxiety, but had no idea what
         | that was at the time. I just knew I did not understand the
         | world or people much at all, seeing them as sloppy systems that
         | seemed to operate without any predictable set of rules aside
         | from maybe self-preservation and immediate gratification.
         | 
         | So when I started taking apart computers, futzing with software
         | and seeing what made the beige boxes tick, I found I could
         | understand those with far more clarity. I also found other
         | people like me in the message boards and a local library.
         | Naturally, this became _my_ world, because I knew how to
         | navigate it better than people who had little interest in using
         | a computer for anything beyond homework or accounting.
         | 
         | It really felt like there was this whole reality that sat on
         | top of the "common" reality and I had ascended to it with some
         | silly notion of secret knowledge. You can image how addicting
         | that would feel to someone who does not do well social and felt
         | very, very outcast as a kid.
         | 
         | I guess the difference between myself and a lot of Phrack
         | authors, whom I still very much respect for laying the paving
         | stones that I got to walk on, is that as I got older, I dealt
         | with my anxiety and found that my genuine curiosity was more of
         | an asset to enriching myself than a key to the door of some
         | secret counter-culture. Hacking, colloquially speaking, went
         | mainstream and sort of left me in the dust, having become
         | impossible for any one person to keep up with the flood of new
         | methods, exploits, etc as the Internet exploded and suddenly
         | everyone had computers in some form or another.
         | 
         | I moved on, more or less. Yes, I still tinker, as a hobby and a
         | form of therapy, but mostly with old computers and industrial
         | machines, since that's part of my adult career, but I miss that
         | feeling of being part of some counter-culture-like group,
         | whether it was real or not.
         | 
         | I can totally see where it would be hard to let go of that.
         | Heck, I'd post that some of the Phrack authors have no business
         | letting go of it since _they_ helped define that whole world
         | and need to keep it alive. I say let them be edgy. I have
         | trouble with that, myself, but I respect it.
         | 
         | Sorry, this turned into a "Hacker Perspective" 2600 article, I
         | guess.
        
           | elefanten wrote:
           | Thoughtful and insightful reflection, thanks for sharing. I
           | think that interplay between personal sense-making, personal
           | strengths and the addictive/rewarding aspects of belonging to
           | a specialized/esoteric community are a very common
           | combination driving the creation of new narratives, new
           | factions/interest and, ultimately, all kinds of change in
           | general... for better or for worse, usually only time and
           | intervening chance can tell. It's cool how meaningful it is
           | to the participants, and also cool when you can zoom out and
           | connect it to the experiences of others across space and
           | time.
        
           | nuancebydefault wrote:
           | I really liked reading your comment.
           | 
           | Somewhat related. I used to think, if I get really good at
           | some thing, people will respect or admire me more. So I do my
           | utmost best to be excellent at what I do.
           | 
           | I found out that getting respect or admiration works
           | differently. When you are very good in one area, you come
           | across as geeky/nerdy. That fills nicely a respected
           | stereotype in film, where the geek finds the missing piece
           | for saving the world. But in the real world, most people
           | don't care.
           | 
           | Also I more recently found out that if you show you are
           | trying really hard, that comes across as feeling very unsure
           | about yourself.
           | 
           | So about the article, understanding how the world works. The
           | author clearly has understanding about financial markets. He
           | knows a lot about security weaknesses and how to exploit
           | them. It is all knowledge available on the web after all, if
           | you spend a lot of nights studying it, it starts to click.
           | 
           | The world is so much more than that though. For me, it is
           | mostly how you interact with it, and the best interactions
           | are with people. At work, at home, on HN.
           | 
           | Why do I work? I make something, I fix a problem, I discuss
           | what is important, it makes somebody happy because it aligns
           | with their goal. Be it a colleague who wants their design
           | reviewed, a customer who has a problem with your product, or
           | a manager who wants a new feature.
        
           | aleph_minus_one wrote:
           | > Hacking, colloquially speaking, went mainstream
           | 
           | I disagree. What went mainstream is a pale imitation of what
           | hacking originally was.
        
           | Aleksdev wrote:
           | Are you Phrack by chance?
        
           | spacebacon wrote:
           | I petition a 1337 Laureate nomination if such nomination
           | exist.
        
           | jancsika wrote:
           | > I just knew I did not understand the world or people much
           | at all, seeing them as sloppy systems that seemed to operate
           | without any predictable set of rules aside from maybe self-
           | preservation and immediate gratification.
           | 
           | That's a fascinating view.
           | 
           | In fact, I'd say most FOSS GUIs from the 90s and early 00s
           | make a lot more sense if you see them as having the
           | hidden/bonus goal of repelling this "world of people." I just
           | remember using something like Dynebolic for the first time,
           | (or, much later, Popcorn Time) and having the feeling I'd
           | just found a sparkling piece of amethyst among so many clods
           | of dirt. Hackers always seemed to me way too curious and lazy
           | to shovel dirt in their spare time; basic resentment/elitism
           | toward society so cleanly explain so many parts of FOSS,
           | everything from the amount of time it's taken to get a decent
           | multi-screen configuration GUI to that old error message,
           | "You don't exist. Go away!"
           | 
           | Digression-- I remember reading an interview of someone who
           | wrote one of the APIs to get multi-screen video working in
           | Linux. They'd written about how they realized that what
           | they'd wrote would be generally useful and therefore needed a
           | GUI. But they didn't have expertise in GUI design nor any
           | interest in maintaining one. So they set down and explicitly
           | wrote a _terrible_ GUI with the goal of making it so bad it
           | 'd be less helpful than just using the command line, thus
           | forcing someone else to take on the task of replacing the
           | awful GUI.
           | 
           | Does anyone remember what that was? The visual metaphor was
           | something to do with playing cards. Anyhow, I'd love to see
           | that GUI!
        
             | contingencies wrote:
             | _xorg.conf_ or _xrandr_ might be along the right lines.
        
               | bityard wrote:
               | Could very well be Xinerama:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinerama
        
         | beardedwizard wrote:
         | Different kinds of hackers then, I suppose.
        
       | matrix87 wrote:
       | I'm saying this on the wrong forum...
       | 
       | all this shit I hear about working in early stage startups and
       | I'm honestly surprised why anyone would bother (unless they're a
       | founder)
        
       | willguest wrote:
       | > "... how the world works"
       | 
       | This is the most generic trap of all. Get good at something and
       | then extrapolate to claim that you know how everything works. I
       | suggest that, given the insane proliferation of valueless
       | derivatives and ejection of human values from these systems, a
       | more suitable conclusion might be that this is how the world
       | dies.
        
         | swiftcoder wrote:
         | An effective hacker has to be competent at social engineering
         | as well as having a very deep understanding of
         | software/hardware.
         | 
         | By the time you have accrued detailed experience of how both
         | these technical systems and social systems work, you may be
         | well on your way to understanding how the world works (in
         | abstract, at any rate)?
        
           | willguest wrote:
           | I think the term 'social engineering' gets right to the
           | point. We aren't machines but we have found very effective
           | way of hacking our rewards systems so that we can manufacture
           | demand, modify behaviour etc.
           | 
           | The author describes the phenomenon, but doesn't seem to see
           | the broader picture. This is where a meta-systematic, or
           | paradigmatic (if you're allergic to the word 'meta')
           | perspective is needed, which transcends both social and
           | technical systems, but appreciated how they fit into a larger
           | scheme.
           | 
           | Through this lens the world is decidedly pluralistic and
           | cannot be condensed to 'it's like X, we gotta do Y'. That can
           | work for a personal strategy, and the author is kind enough
           | to make some suggestions, but it's intellectual overreach to
           | try and label the world
        
             | lo_zamoyski wrote:
             | > I think the term 'social engineering' gets right to the
             | point.
             | 
             | "Social engineering" is just dystopian newspeak for
             | "deception, manipulation, lying, and bullshitting to get
             | what you want". If honest language were used, maybe it
             | wouldn't look so sexy.
             | 
             | Anything else that avoids immoral means is just a matter of
             | rhetorical skill and ability to negotiate.
        
           | meiraleal wrote:
           | a smart weirdo can rationalize the world and life, yes. They
           | will probably be very, very wrong in interesting smart ways,
           | tho.
        
         | klntsky wrote:
         | I don't think the author is guilty of that.
        
         | lucideer wrote:
         | Agree with the sentiment of your comment in isolation but when
         | I went to the article to see the quoted line in context, the
         | author isn't saying anything of the sort.
         | 
         | They're not taking a narrow definition of knowledge &
         | extrapolating that once one has that specific knowledge it
         | explains everything. Instead they're broadening the definition
         | of "hacker" (& also invoking the idea of continuous
         | interrogation) to describe an approach to always _seeking_ &
         | finding "how the world works" in any given context.
        
           | willguest wrote:
           | It's there three times, which is partly what triggered the
           | comment, as it came across as something of a theme.
           | 
           | Certainly this article is less dogmatic that many, but I
           | still got the sense that author was using effects like
           | causes.
           | 
           | The less lazy version is to do with treating the metric as
           | the measure. Sure, the quant revolution is in full swing, but
           | it's a terrible way to gauge the success (or failure) of
           | society, and is perhaps a better metric for describing
           | detrimental human activity.
           | 
           | That said, I fully appreciate the author's efforts to break
           | with convention, but I felt that the points made actually
           | give creedence to the system that, in my view, is actively
           | corrupting the values that might get us out of this mess
        
         | dsab wrote:
         | > I suggest that, given the insane proliferation of valueless
         | derivatives and ejection of human values from these systems
         | 
         | What do you mean by "these systems" ? Blockchain based money?
        
           | willguest wrote:
           | I suppose memecoins represent a form of this, but I was
           | really referring to financial instruments, in particular
           | those that exist based on a derived sense of value, rather
           | than an actual quantification of it, such as:
           | 
           | Stock and, to a lesser degree, commodities futures, stock
           | index futures, currency futures, interest rate futures, index
           | options, currency options, interest rate options, credit
           | default swaps, total return swaps, currency forwards,
           | interest rate forwards.
           | 
           | The more exotic of these, which are usually more lucractive
           | and less well regulated, include:
           | 
           | derivative-based exchange-traded funds, leveraged ETFs,
           | inverse ETFs, equity-linked notes, credit-linked notes,
           | principal-protected notes, collateralized debt obligations,
           | weather derivatives (yes, you read that right), catastrophe
           | bonds (eesh) barrier options and lookback options, to name a
           | few.
           | 
           | They are all mechanisms to leverage expectation and
           | uncertainty and most rely on the quantification of risk at
           | some level. Risk, however, is defined in terms of expected
           | return and subject to an assessment of externalities that is,
           | at its core, resource-blind.
        
         | newzisforsukas wrote:
         | > given the insane proliferation of valueless derivatives and
         | ejection of human values from these systems
         | 
         | might want to clarify a bit there
        
         | set5think wrote:
         | How the world dies vs how the world works doesn't sound all
         | that different, and there's still plenty of great wisdom in the
         | article.
        
           | willguest wrote:
           | This is super depressing, but probably on point. I agree that
           | the article has good points.
           | 
           | I think the spirit that the author is trying to capture is
           | that there is a better way. I just think that they don't go
           | far enough. There is a tendency to arrive at a idea and
           | believe it to be a good global model - my intention with
           | these comments is to try and provoke a more holistic
           | assessment of the issue, despite the fact that I think their
           | criticism of startup culture is valid
        
             | set5think wrote:
             | It sounds like you should take it from where they left off
             | and publish your own post about your perspective, and
             | fulfill the prophecy!
        
         | km144 wrote:
         | This is exactly how most on this website sound to be honest--
         | people who got good enough in their field to convince
         | themselves that they can speak authoritatively on some
         | unrelated complex topic.
        
           | squigz wrote:
           | Which is strange, because one might expect that as someone
           | gains expert knowledge in a particular field, they would
           | recognize that most fields are similarly complex, require
           | just as much nuanced knowledge as their own, and would not
           | try to speak authoritatively on it.
        
             | sanderjd wrote:
             | And yet, this turns out to be not really how the human
             | psyche works! It is useful to keep this in mind, and to be
             | reminded of it.
        
         | eska wrote:
         | _My point is, it is not just about computers. It 's about
         | understanding how the world works. The world is made up of
         | people. As much as machines keep society running, those
         | machines are programmed by people--people with managers,
         | spouses, and children; with wants, needs, and dreams. And it is
         | about using that knowledge to bring about the change you want
         | to see._
        
       | port19 wrote:
       | > 3 - How Money Works
       | 
       | Bold
        
       | sixthDot wrote:
       | I feel miserable as I only check 4 or 5 criterions over 8000.
        
       | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
       | If I've ever seen an article that needs a tldr, this is it.
       | 
       | Just because we're both hackers, doesn't mean you can call on me.
       | I don't care about all your handles or what you think hacking
       | should be, get to the point and stop wasting my time.
        
         | brap wrote:
         | For real. A hacker knows this, a hacker knows that. Does a
         | hacker know how to get to the fucking point?
        
         | wormlord wrote:
         | I appreciate what it is trying to say, it's pretty basic
         | knowledge for anyone that has broken out of "the market is God"
         | mentality though through reading about the basics of finance.
         | 
         | I think the writing style is influenced by WallStreetBets
         | infodumps, which are influenced by Wolf of Wall Street, The Big
         | Short, and kinda remind me of Hunter S. Thompson a little bit.
         | Personally I find it annoying but I understand the culture that
         | this kind of writing is emerging from.
        
           | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
           | I don't care what influenced it, I might be more interested
           | if I know the content is actually of interest but it
           | presumably took several paragraphs to get there. I didn't
           | know it was about marketing, because I stopped reading.
           | 
           | A hacker should know how to captivate their audience,
           | particularly when talking about marketing.
        
       | lifeisstillgood wrote:
       | This did not seem as bad as it's played in the comments - it's
       | somewhat akin to pg's breakout essay (pg is much much easier to
       | read) but it's the same thing - set up a company, make the world
       | better. I like the attitude (even if the text formatting could be
       | improved but house style is house style)
        
         | coldpie wrote:
         | Yeah I think everyone got hung up on the kind of cringy first
         | section. Past the "what is a hacker" junk, it's quite a good
         | article.
        
       | mehulashah wrote:
       | > "The point is, all of this made me feel very small and
       | powerless after I realized the sheer size of the problems I was
       | staring at. Nowadays, to me it's about creating good jobs for my
       | friends, helping our customers, and taking care of the community.
       | Importantly, I realized that this is still making a bigger
       | positive impact than what I could have done alone just as an
       | individual hacker or engineer."
       | 
       | I couldn't have said it better. This is why I'm an entrepreneur
       | and still take the pains to do it.
        
       | fsndz wrote:
       | Absolutely great read. My thesis is you have to understand how
       | the world works and one aspect of it is quickly identifying
       | mainstream lies: https://medium.com/thoughts-on-machine-
       | learning/the-secret-o...
        
       | RaVeN_ShP wrote:
       | Do group buys for IDA Pro even still exist?
        
         | kurisufag wrote:
         | I thought the move was just using a cracked version until you
         | make it and can afford a real license to flex.
        
         | kachapopopow wrote:
         | IDA has gone full corporations since 8.0, but before that china
         | always used to leak the latest version.
         | 
         | Ironically this time IDA 9.0 was leaked by... hexrays
         | themselves, including lumina, hexvault, etc. Pretty sure it was
         | meant to be a demo page in defcon, but someone leaked the URL.
         | 
         | Binary Ninja is a solid competitor if you don't mind cleaning
         | up the binaries before hand to clear up opaque jumps or have
         | 256GB of ram.
        
       | SebFender wrote:
       | Looking at the article I was expecting some dude popping out of
       | nowhere on a skateboard.
        
         | set5think wrote:
         | Hahah I just realized the reference to the movie! Bravo.
        
       | boomskats wrote:
       | Entertaining read. To me it feels like a modern version of The
       | Mentor's original manifesto, but having resigned itself to middle
       | age. My inner 12 year old wants to frame this one too.
        
         | lifeisstillgood wrote:
         | FYI: https://davidgcohen.com/2011/08/28/the-mentor-manifesto/
        
           | Handprint4469 wrote:
           | lol no, that's a sterile self-help blogpost written by some
           | VC.
           | 
           | This is The Mentor's original manifesto:
           | https://phrack.org/issues/7/3.html
        
       | AYBABTME wrote:
       | I thought this would be bad. The start with security stuff isn't
       | my vibe. But then I kept reading it and the storytelling kept me.
       | The econ stuff, parallels, etc.
       | 
       | It ended up capturing perfectly a bunch of ideas I've been having
       | for a few months now. ZIRP was toxic. It made us bad and lazy.
       | Identifying the phenomenons and explaining their mechanisms has
       | been a useful exercise.
       | 
       | I think this post will stay in my brain for a long while. I'm at
       | this point in life and this resonates a lot. I want to build
       | useful stuff with intrinsic value and I'm sick of the BS that
       | exulted in the last decade. In my own way I'm trying to start
       | ventures, so it's a good motivating call.
       | 
       | Slow start but damn solid article.
        
         | set5think wrote:
         | agreed, wholeheartedly.
        
         | coldpie wrote:
         | > ZIRP was toxic. It made us bad and lazy.
         | 
         | Yes. It makes me really nervous to see people celebrating the
         | fed talking about lowering rates. Maybe rates should be lowered
         | a bit, sure, I don't know. But please, please don't ever let us
         | go back to zero-interest. As a person who works with
         | technology, that era was so incredibly depressing. So much
         | waste. I'm on the verge of leaving the tech industry because of
         | what happened over the past 10 years. City bus drivers don't
         | have to share an industry with SBF and Juicero and Elon Musk,
         | you know?
        
           | dgb23 wrote:
           | I'm only starting to learn about these things.
           | 
           | From the data I've seen and read it seems like low interest
           | rates are (politically) alluring, because of short term
           | metrics, but will bite back via inflation and bubbles
           | bursting very consistently.
           | 
           | Is there any wisdom and data that challenges or expands on
           | this that a layman can understand?
        
             | antishatter wrote:
             | https://www.amazon.com/Price-Time-Real-Story-
             | Interest/dp/080...
        
             | pas wrote:
             | So, bubbles are hard, especially when the underlying
             | fundamental thing does not respond well to price increases
             | (NIMBYism, zoning, weaponized environmental legislation,
             | etc.)
             | 
             | https://www.fullstackeconomics.com/p/the-2000s-housing-
             | bubbl...
             | 
             | Tech bubbles are doubly so, because now that "total
             | addressable market" has exploded thanks to the internet
             | everything is a bubble. (Starting with the good old dot-com
             | one, and crypto, and AR/VR/Metaverse, and now AI. Folks are
             | comparing Nvidia stock graphs to Cisco around 2000.)
             | 
             | ....
             | 
             | Likely the HN crowd overestimates the effect of ZIRP on
             | tech, because how crazy the last 10-15 years have been.
             | (But we see that the economy in general performed extremely
             | well, real wages increased, etc.)
             | 
             | Yes, of course there were (and are) a lot of scummy
             | ventures, but there will be more.
             | 
             | ...
             | 
             | Regarding rates, the picture is a bit more complex. So
             | coming out of the 2008 crash the Obama/ARRA fiscal stimulus
             | was too small. (And of course it got hyper-over-politicized
             | on "both sides".) And the monetary response was also
             | lackluster.
             | 
             | But we also know now (benefit of hindsight!) that the rates
             | before 2008 were too low.
             | 
             | https://www.caixabankresearch.com/en/economics-
             | markets/monet...
             | 
             | One important take-away is that of course everyone wants
             | growth, more growth would help lower taxes, inflate away
             | deficits, yey! Prosperity is good!
             | 
             | But ... we can't simply buy growth with endless loans from
             | our future selves. Real economic growth requires increasing
             | productivity, which requires applying new (better, more
             | suited to the situation, more profitable) technologies,
             | which requires changes (duh), but an aging population is
             | very change-averse. The US with the political gridlock
             | tends to go on wild goose chases, spending enormous amounts
             | of money on bullshitting instead of picking better
             | technology.
             | 
             | (And here technology includes social technology too. From
             | the things like "lack of funding reform for fire
             | departments leads to them going with too large firetrucks
             | everywhere to be able to bill a lot, which leads them to
             | not sign-off on thinner roads, which leads to too wide
             | roads where motorists drive too fast, which leads to too
             | many injuries and fatalities" to all the usual like lack of
             | gun control and bribery rules for the courts.)
        
           | rvense wrote:
           | Not a fan of the terminology that corporations are people,
           | but stacks of free money will mess up a company much like it
           | will a person.
        
           | immibis wrote:
           | The long term trend for the Fed is that it raises rates
           | somewhat, and then lowers them even more. There is no reason
           | to think this won't happen again this time, landing squarely
           | in negative rates. It only stops when US dollars are
           | worthless because any Tom, Dick and Harry can get a billion
           | of them for free and even get paid for doing so.
           | 
           | So far, the Fed does a good job of gatekeeping normal people
           | out of the negative rate market even when rates are negative
           | - only rich people are allowed to benefit.
        
           | phkahler wrote:
           | >> It makes me really nervous to see people celebrating the
           | fed talking about lowering rates.
           | 
           | One thing I've often thought true but not confirmed is that
           | lowering interest rates has it's own effect on top of the
           | lower rate itself. Lowering rates leads to refinancing for
           | example which is not a thing in a steady state. I'm inclined
           | to think most of the benefit of a rate lowering is in fact
           | transient, while the effects of having low rates are
           | permanent and there are similarly transient costs with
           | raising rates. It's a trap.
        
             | schmidtleonard wrote:
             | You talk about low rates like they are a choice. That's
             | mostly not true. A better way to think about it is that low
             | rates are a consequence of "lots of savings chasing few
             | investment opportunities."
             | 
             | Sure, the fed can buy and sell treasuries and use its
             | magical balance sheet to push/pull on treasury yields, and
             | these in turn are the lowest risk and most liquid mechanism
             | for duration transformation so they tend to serve as a
             | baseline / comparison point for every other kind of
             | investment, transmitting monetary policy into the real
             | economy. However, the fed's magical balance sheet has
             | limits: if they push or pull on treasury yields too hard
             | for too long, people will stop using them as a default
             | point of comparison and put their money somewhere else.
             | See: Bank of Japan and the JPY Carry Trade that everyone
             | became an expert in about 3 weeks ago. Point is: the fed
             | can push and pull, but it can't fight the market-determined
             | macro and win. Not for long, anyway.
             | 
             | Low rates are inevitable between growth sigmoids. Unless
             | you think we can exponentially grow forever, we need to
             | figure out how to cope. What would that look like? How
             | could we possibly cool off the economy without paying
             | people to not invest? Well, I mean, we _could_ raise taxes
             | and spend that on the people who got left behind on the
             | last growth sigmoid, but I can hear the  "boos" and
             | "hisses" already. Hey! Tomatoes are for eating, not
             | throwing! Guys, come on! You know it's true.
        
               | dgfitz wrote:
               | > Well, I mean, we could raise taxes and spend that on
               | the people who got left behind on the last growth
               | sigmoid, but I can hear the "boos" and "hisses" already.
               | 
               | I mostly agree. The issue comes from how the money gets
               | spent. It costs money to collect money, it costs money to
               | spend money. Most of the spent money is used to "buy
               | solutions" from private industry, so the rich still get
               | richer, and nothing really changes.
               | 
               | Baltimore, MD, USA, spends more per student [1] than
               | almost any other city in the country, and nothing
               | changes. Oh well actually, there is a lot of corruption
               | in the city council and I think over half of the past few
               | mayors have been arrested on criminal charges.
               | 
               | [1] https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/in-
               | baltimore...
        
               | toast0 wrote:
               | > Baltimore, MD, USA, spends more per student [1] than
               | almost any other city in the country, and nothing
               | changes. Oh well actually, there is a lot of corruption
               | in the city council and I think over half of the past few
               | mayors have been arrested on criminal charges.
               | 
               | I'm not connected to Maryland, but is there a reason,
               | other than history that the school board is appointed by
               | the mayor and not elected? Everywhere I've lived, school
               | districts have been independent from the cities they
               | operate in, and supervised by a state education
               | organization and perhaps mildly supervised by the county
               | board of supervisors in the counties they operate in (or
               | city councils when operating in cities that are
               | counties). Then you could have corrupt city governance
               | without necessarily having corrupt school governance;
               | although you could still have both if that's what your
               | local electorate chooses.
        
               | dgfitz wrote:
               | The gov. of maryland at the time of the freddy gray riots
               | had the national guard on standby for HOURS before the
               | mayor finally permitted the state to assist.
               | 
               | It is a horribly fucked up city, corrupt from top to
               | bottom, rampant crime, murder, fraud, etc.
               | 
               | But no worries, residents of the city pay an ADDITIONAL
               | tax beoyo9nd federal and state taxes to ensure things
               | stay exactly the way they are. Baltimore city could
               | triple their tax rates and nothing would change.
               | 
               | This is a microchasm of the entire US. One of if not the
               | wealthiest country in the world cannot figure out that
               | throwing money at problems DOESN'T FIX THEM. It is a
               | rich-person way of thinking: "something broke, I'll pay
               | someone to fix it" but thr "someone" lines their pockets,
               | pays lip service, does the least costly "fix" possible,
               | and laughs all the way to the corvette store.
        
               | thijson wrote:
               | 1950-1975 property taxes in Baltimore increased 19 times.
               | It's double the rate in neighboring Baltimore county. In
               | the 2010's Baltimore was losing 500 residents per month.
               | The city is in a death spiral.
               | 
               | 1950-1975 San Francisco was in a similar situation,
               | losing population. In 1978 prop. 13 passed and placed a
               | cap of 1% on the property tax. Reducing it by 2/3's. A
               | huge boom started. The overall revenue increased by 80%
               | after a few years as the property values increased.
               | 
               | Two Baltimore residents talk about it here:
               | 
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrNjUCmTURg
        
               | dgfitz wrote:
               | Respectfully, SF is known for a handful of things,
               | wealth, tech, and people shitting on the sidewalk
               | prominent among them.
               | 
               | So tell me, who won? I have a guess.
        
           | underdeserver wrote:
           | Lowering rates is fine. Lowering them to zero is bad.
           | 
           | Economists generally believe the baseline, target rate should
           | be around 2-3%.
           | 
           | Zero interest rate is like steroids. You can take them for a
           | while to pick you up and help fight a bug (like the 2008
           | crash), but if you don't stop taking them, you'll need a
           | long, painful, 5.5% interest rate rehab.
        
             | wrycoder wrote:
             | And, if you were to balance the Federal budget, you would
             | inflate away 75% of the national debt in 50 years at 3%
             | inflation. But, only a balanced budget amendment to the
             | Constitution could accomplish that.
        
               | mdorazio wrote:
               | How are you calculating that? The national debt itself
               | currently has an average interest rate higher than 3%.
        
             | schmidtleonard wrote:
             | > Zero interest rate is like steroids.
             | 
             | The problem with your analogy is that paying interest is an
             | active measure. It takes effort. The higher the
             | rate*(outstanding debt), the more effort. This isn't a
             | choice between injecting nothing vs injecting steroids,
             | it's a choice between injecting sedatives vs injecting
             | nothing. Raising the interest rate is like injecting a
             | sedative. How much sedative should we inject? How much
             | sedative _can_ we inject?
        
               | Vegenoid wrote:
               | I disagree, as this implies that an interest of zero is
               | the normal default. Why would it be? Why would someone
               | lend someone else money, when they get nothing for it?
        
             | graemep wrote:
             | > Economists generally believe the baseline, target rate
             | should be around 2-3%.
             | 
             | The problem with that is (as we found out) that does not
             | leave you much room to cut without going to near zero
             | rates.
        
               | ZoomerCretin wrote:
               | That's a feature, not a bug.
               | 
               | The government reaction to the 2021 economic
               | circumstances was to counter the hot job market, not
               | inflation. It is explicitly and legally the mandate of
               | the federal reserve to target maximum employment first,
               | and 3% inflation if possible.
               | 
               | Inflation has been normal for a while now by most
               | metrics, but rates are still sky-high to crush worker
               | power. This may not be the stated goal, but it is the
               | actual outcome we can see.
               | 
               | The purpose of a system is what it does.
               | 
               | Super-low inflation targets hurt worker negotiating
               | power.
        
               | tiahura wrote:
               | The relevant section of the U.S. Code is 12 U.S.C. SS
               | 225a, which states:                   "The Board of
               | Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal
               | Open Market Committee shall maintain long run growth of
               | the monetary and credit aggregates commensurate with the
               | economy's long run potential to increase production, so
               | as to promote effectively the goals of maximum
               | employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term
               | interest rates."
               | 
               | The reason rates are staying high is because of the
               | expectations game. The US had unfathomable price
               | stability for decades. The fed realizes that the
               | inflation genie is out of the bottle. The only way to get
               | it back in is to overcompensate by raising rates and
               | leaving them high until people forget about 10%
               | inflation.
        
               | marcosdumay wrote:
               | Why do people insist on this?
               | 
               | A rate of inflation + 0.5% is double of a rate of
               | inflation + 0.25, that is double of a rate of inflation +
               | 0.125%, that is double of...
               | 
               | You can have as many steps as you want.
        
             | Jensson wrote:
             | > Zero interest rate is like steroids
             | 
             | More like adding fat and never burn it. Zero interest means
             | everything stays around, no pressure to produce since there
             | is no expectation of ROI, and then when you suddenly add
             | that pressure a lot of stuff collapses under their own
             | weight since they don't have anything to keep it up.
        
               | sangnoir wrote:
               | I'll be the devil's advocate. Zero interest rates means
               | it's easier for startups to raise money. High interest
               | rates locks in the status quo - because of their massive
               | war chests big companies don't struggle because of high
               | interests, but small companies do.
               | 
               | For individuals in the middle class and lower, high
               | interest rates (and the associated inflation) directly
               | lower the quality of life by eroding their purchasing
               | power.
        
               | usefulcat wrote:
               | > high interest rates (and the associated inflation)
               | directly lower the quality of life by eroding their
               | purchasing power.
               | 
               | This confuses me. Rates were raised to reduce inflation.
               | How should inflation have been reduced, if not (at least
               | in part) by raising rates?
        
             | akira2501 wrote:
             | > and help fight a bug (like the 2008 crash)
             | 
             | That was not a "bug." That was a parasite. If you take
             | steroids with a parasite you might just make the parasite
             | stronger.
        
             | marcosdumay wrote:
             | > Economists generally believe the baseline, target rate
             | should be around 2-3%.
             | 
             | If it's lower than inflation, the government is just giving
             | free money to the corporations with access to interbank
             | settlement loans.
        
           | bboygravity wrote:
           | Elon Musk is very wasteful selling waste due to low interest
           | rates? Please explain or make your point? I don't get how he
           | relates to the rest of your post?
        
           | btown wrote:
           | I have a slightly different view on this. ZIRP allowed
           | companies to do crazy things when it came to tech investment.
           | For instance, would Kafka (and by extension, Confluent, and
           | much of the distributed-systems landscape) exist if LinkedIn
           | hadn't decided: "you know, let's not think too hard about
           | whether building a custom queue system is fully economically
           | rational, let's just let our engineers do it, and we'll be
           | able to spin it to investors/shareholders as a good use of
           | capital." It's no coincidence that this happened in 2010, the
           | first year that the interest rate dropped below 1% (and
           | substantially so).
           | 
           | https://www.rtinsights.com/the-technical-evolution-of-
           | apache...
           | 
           | https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS
           | 
           | Were the people who worked on that project value-optimal for
           | LinkedIn? Maybe, maybe not. Were they "lazy" and a "waste" in
           | the value they brought to society overall, especially
           | including the spin-offs and startups that members of these
           | teams would go on to build? I don't think that's an accurate
           | characterization.
           | 
           | Zero-interest was an effective way to incentivize public
           | companies, VC-backed companies, and their LPs to spend large
           | amounts of money on speculative engineering work -
           | speculative enough that one might even call it research, but
           | the fact that we could call it something other than research
           | is the entire point.
           | 
           | It's far from the only such incentive, and it came with many,
           | many downsides, including the creation of many over-funded
           | startups that over-promised and caused harm in their under-
           | delivery.
           | 
           | To be sure, startups aren't going anywhere. There are
           | surprisingly fun challenges when profitability and
           | sustainable growth are core requirements for every project,
           | both macro and micro, and it's just an evolution of our
           | hacker mentality to have to deal with these new constraints.
           | 
           | But I fear that we've lost the incentive to have companies
           | invest speculatively in crazy projects without having a
           | sufficient replacement for ZIRP, and it may take a generation
           | before we understand how that will have affected the rate of
           | innovative output for the entire world.
        
             | coldpie wrote:
             | It's a fair perspective, but I'd counter by bringing up the
             | opportunity cost we spent on the incredible amount of trash
             | startups that ZIRP produced. Those Juicero & crypto & NFT
             | people could've been doing something productive with their
             | lives instead of whatever that mess was. Was Kafka worth
             | that cost? I dunno. But seeing the obvious waste and the
             | clowns who profited from it made me, personally, really
             | depressed at the state of our industry. A system that so
             | blatantly does not distribute rewards for real, valuable
             | work really discourages one from bothering to even try
             | putting in the work.
        
               | breakingcups wrote:
               | It kinda feels like raising the Temperature of a LLM too
               | high, if you'll forgive the analogy. Yes, there might be
               | occasional-seemingly brilliant-bursts of creativity but
               | most of the output is just going to be nonsense.
        
         | easterncalculus wrote:
         | Feel basically the opposite, in fact I would go to say this
         | takeawway is the wrong one - the article is titled "Calling All
         | Hackers" but can't go three headings without talking about
         | shitcoins and venture capital. There's the HN definition of
         | hacker and the infosec one, and phrack is for the latter. "High
         | tech, low life" hackers don't have obsessions with venture
         | capital.
        
           | rnewme wrote:
           | At one point you grow up and realize the fastest way to your
           | goals is using money, and best bet to get lots of money fast
           | is the VC game.
        
       | set5think wrote:
       | Thank you for finding a great way to say what I have been trying
       | to say all my life. I will keep this with me for the rest of my
       | life
       | 
       | -Hassan
        
       | shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
       | The author is telling us that "Hackers" are people who know
       | enough ins and outs about the things they interact with on a
       | daily basis.
       | 
       | > "My point is, it is not just about computers. It's about
       | understanding how the world works. The world is made up of
       | people. As much as machines keep society running, those machines
       | are programmed by people--people with managers, spouses, and
       | children; with wants, needs, and dreams. And it is about using
       | that knowledge to bring about the change you want to see.
       | 
       | That is what being a hacker is all about."
       | 
       | I usually read/listen to people's experiences and whether or not
       | their stories truly make sense depends on how they present them
       | to the world.
        
         | shahzaibmushtaq wrote:
         | As I said above "for stories to make sense, you must be a good
         | storyteller", and this author is definitely one of them.
         | 
         | A must read for everyone.
        
       | Elfener wrote:
       | "It's about knowing what happens when you type "google.com" and
       | press Enter" is possibly the best short explanation of hacker
       | culture ever.
        
         | diggan wrote:
         | It literally goes on to say "But being a hacker is so much more
         | than these things." after that, so it's not just about things
         | like those :)
        
         | sanderjd wrote:
         | Yep, I still remember the feeling when I first developed at
         | least _some_ mental model for all the steps along the way from
         | "enter" to seeing the results, and realized that it was even
         | _more_ shockingly complex than I imagined it to be when it was
         | just magic, and that despite that complexity, it all actually
         | works many billions of times every moment of every day.
         | 
         | Then what happened is that pretty much every year (maybe closer
         | to every day) since then I have learned about some piece of the
         | puzzle where my mental model was actually nowhere near the
         | truth, and that each individual puzzle piece is even _more_
         | complex than I thought! Truly wild stuff.
        
         | mensetmanusman wrote:
         | We used to know what would happen. Now with AI, it might
         | recommend putting glue on pizza or making bioweapons for a
         | potluck.
        
       | jll29 wrote:
       | Web Page Blocked!                 You have tried to access a web
       | page which belongs to a category that is blocked.
       | 
       | :-(
        
         | John23832 wrote:
         | That seems like a problem on your end.
        
         | diggan wrote:
         | Sounds like someone (your parents? the company you work at?
         | your school?) have installed a firewall of some sorts.
        
         | ffhhj wrote:
         | Aha, caught browsing in the job. Head to HR for your daily
         | beating.
        
           | set5think wrote:
           | Hahah
        
       | cyberes wrote:
       | Really pointless article
        
         | set5think wrote:
         | Really pointless comment :P
        
       | goodpoint wrote:
       | > Hackers should not think of themselves as "oh I am this little
       | guy fighting Big Corporation" or whatever. [...] Instead become
       | the corporation
       | 
       | Hacker culture is inherently antiauthoritarian. Wanting to become
       | the big corporation is something you would expect only from
       | "hacker" "news".
        
       | udev4096 wrote:
       | Good to see phrack finally supporting HTTPS.
        
         | throw_pm23 wrote:
         | Seriously, who cares, it is an essay in a text file.
        
           | brunoqc wrote:
           | because your ISP doesn't need to know what your read?
        
       | kayo_20211030 wrote:
       | I agree with the premise and conclusions, but what struck me,
       | particularly, about this was how well it was written. Thanks to
       | the author for a super piece.
        
       | denvaar wrote:
       | "It's about knowing more about the web than most, but still
       | choosing to make your site as mobile-unfriendly as possible." /s
       | 
       | EDIT: I actually love that it's text based, even to the point of
       | creating sigma notation out of plain text.
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | So a young hacker turned tech bro learned about the financial
       | markets and told himself he was still a hacker working in tech
       | and financial markets. But I see nothing of hacking here. I see
       | pontificating about an "ethos" and how great hackers are, and
       | making it seem like financial markets, bitcoin and startups is
       | some mysterious unknown to "hack". Really it's just a job. Hey,
       | you wanna nerd out on this stuff, that's great. But just doing a
       | job in financial markets or silicon valley doesn't make you a
       | hacker, or what you do hacking.
        
         | samwcurry wrote:
         | They are saying the exact opposite! The whole essay is about
         | how financial markets are not some "mysterious unknown" and are
         | instead predictable systems that are masked in a layer of
         | bullshit that you can lean into and take advantage of. As a
         | non-finance person, understanding "why" obviously terrible
         | ideas get investment helps me understand how the world works.
         | If we replaced the humans in the financial system with APIs,
         | there would be inputs (pitch deck, founder persona, whatever)
         | that can cleverly lead to an intended solution (raising
         | capital, starting a company) in the same way that I could find
         | a vulnerability on RuneScape or Eve Online, which I'm sure
         | satisfies the traditional "hacker" definition. It's obviously
         | not that cut-and-dry, but approaching the world in the "hacker
         | mindset" is about observing and manipulating these systems.
        
       | kelsey98765431 wrote:
       | gz nspky ggwp
        
       | pcdoodle wrote:
       | I really enjoyed reading that. Thank you.
        
       | iwontberude wrote:
       | > Knowing that you're not worth burning a 0day on
       | 
       | This has been a pretty tried and true way for me to figure out
       | who is schizophrenic and who is important.
        
       | afpx wrote:
       | If your company is successful, won't the VCs just spin up some
       | clones?
        
       | fredgrott wrote:
       | Good news....you know that worry about zero interest?
       | 
       | TARP was closed in fall of 2023 as all assets were sold off, see
       | https://home.treasury.gov/data/troubled-asset-relief-program
       | 
       | That means assuming we do not screw up again, no more zero or
       | negative interest situations.
        
       | debo_ wrote:
       | > A hacker is someone who understands how the world works. It's
       | about knowing what happens when you type "google.com" and press
       | Enter. It's about knowing how your computer turns on, about
       | memory training, A20, all of that. It's about modern processors,
       | their caches, and their side channels. It's about DSi bootloaders
       | and how the right electromagnetic faults can be used to jailbreak
       | them. And it's about how Spotify and Widevine and AES and SGX
       | work so you can free your music from the shackles of DRM.
       | 
       | This is a very... interesting definition of "the world."
        
         | monitron wrote:
         | I humbly suggest that you read beyond the first few paragraphs.
         | The author goes on to significantly expand the definition.
        
           | debo_ wrote:
           | I did read the whole article, and I liked it. As an intro, it
           | was a bit discombobulating to see this as the first
           | paragraph.
        
         | lo_zamoyski wrote:
         | To know how the "world works", to know the causes of things,
         | either includes hackers, or is identical with being a hacker.
         | Is Aristotle a hacker? Human beings desire, by nature, to know.
         | If you live in a technological society, it is important to
         | understand the thicket of technology we find ourselves in, and
         | how to navigate it. That's just prudence, and just a particular
         | determination of the truth, that it was always good to
         | understand oneself and one's predicament.
         | 
         | I guess you can call that a hacker, or count hackers among such
         | people. But then, if the latter, you must offer a
         | distinguishing characteristic that distinguishes hackers among
         | others in this genus.
         | 
         | And what are the author's presuppositions?
        
       | stong1 wrote:
       | This is my article. Thank you for your kind words, I'm glad you
       | all enjoyed it! I was very surprised to wake up this morning to
       | see it on HN, haha.
        
         | MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
         | > Keep it private and closely held
         | 
         | Yep. I know this is probably a bit revisionist (old-timey
         | inventors wanted to get rich quick too) but it feels like
         | companies used to more often be geared toward longevity, not
         | ascendance, and I don't see how they could achieve longevity
         | while constantly trying to make shareholders rich. Longevity
         | really should be up there on the list of goals, with security
         | and prosperity for all those involved.
         | 
         | I suppose a meat grinder growfast company could invent world-
         | improving products that justify employee churn and abuse, but
         | those would be unicorns with diamond encrusted horns.
         | 
         | What is the point of any of our actions if they don't benefit
         | _people_?
        
         | set5think wrote:
         | Great job Luna!
        
         | spirobelv2 wrote:
         | can you give a tldr? whats the point? how are we going to get
         | rich? what is your answer?
        
         | minusLik wrote:
         | Thank you for the article! I found the "I understand computers
         | and therefore the world" in the beginning a bit pretentious,
         | but after reading the rest anyway, it doesn't anymore. I'd
         | summarize the piece as:
         | 
         | "The hacker mindset comes with powerful tools: The urge to
         | figure stuff out, the creativity to use it in unusual ways and
         | the passion to share knowledge. Let's use it to make the world
         | a better place. Start a company and gather allies. If enough of
         | us do this, we'll have an impact on the world."
        
       | biofox wrote:
       | As a ex-hacker who left the scene to wear a suit and become a
       | "grown-up", this is refreshing and much more palatable vision of
       | the community that I wish I had seen more of when I was younger:
       | 
       | `` Hackers should not think of themselves as "oh I am this little
       | guy fighting Big Corporation" or whatever. This is low agency
       | behavior. Instead become the corporation and RUN IT THE WAY YOU
       | THINK IT SHOULD BE RUN." ''
       | 
       | One question though, to the suggestion that hackers should focus
       | on raising capital in a way that gives them breathing room... how
       | the hell am I supposed to do that?
        
       | shepherdjerred wrote:
       | As someone who doesn't have a formal understanding of
       | finances/economics, I really enjoyed the first half of this post.
       | 
       | Are there any good resources to understand the world's financial
       | systems as a layman? I'm not looking to be an expert.
        
         | 3np wrote:
         | Looking up new terms on investopedia and going down rabbit
         | holes from there is not a bad start, I think.
        
       | adhambadr wrote:
       | Loved this. Thank you for putting it together, I could relate to
       | it on a level you couldn't possibly imagine.
        
       | TacticalCoder wrote:
       | That article is worth reading. If you don't have the time, at
       | least take a look at the "liquidity cycle" ASCII art: it is
       | wonderful!
        
       | winterrx wrote:
       | > You can understand computers and science and math as much as
       | you want, but you will not be able to fix the bigger issues by
       | yourself. The systems that run the world are much bigger than
       | what we can break on our laptops and lab benches.
       | 
       | This.
        
       | jchor wrote:
       | This is such a beautifully written story with it's own kind of
       | elegance. Love it!
        
       | vicken wrote:
       | This isn't just a call to all hackers...this is a call to all
       | entrepreneurs. It really highlights the artificial success of
       | many companies today.
        
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       (page generated 2024-08-21 23:00 UTC)