[HN Gopher] I wag, therefore I am: the philosophy of dogs
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I wag, therefore I am: the philosophy of dogs
Author : iechoz6H
Score : 97 points
Date : 2024-08-18 13:18 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| numerosix wrote:
| Thank you to bring this up.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| The post contains a pretty strong assertion that dogs cannot
| perform mental reflection:
|
| > _In the authentic happiness Shadow finds in the most banal of
| activities, his commitment to life and action is one that we
| humans find so hard to emulate. This is because of something that
| happened to us: a great schism in consciousness that we know as
| reflection. We humans are the world heavyweight champions of
| thinking about ourselves, scrutinising and evaluating what we do
| and why we do it._
|
| > _This schism breaks us in two. Henceforth we are all divided
| into one who thinks and one who is thought about; one who sees
| and one who is seen; one who reflects and one who is reflected
| upon. This bifurcation in our consciousness robs us of the
| possibility of a certain type of happiness, the happiness that
| accompanies being whole. Shadow is whole in a way that a human
| can never be._
|
| ...
|
| > _Being undivided by reflection, being whole and entire, a dog
| has only one life to live, whereas we - in whom reflection's
| canyon is deepest - have two. For us, there is both the life that
| we live and the life that we think about, scrutinise, evaluate
| and judge._
|
| It's one thing to assert that a philosophy of living in the
| moment may be good for people, something completely different to
| assert that dogs are incapable of living otherwise.
| pdonis wrote:
| Is there any evidence that dogs _can_ perform mental
| reflection?
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| What would dog mental reflection even look like? "I should
| have chosen a different route when chasing that rabbit?"
|
| I don't think there is any evidence for mental reflection at
| this moment, but the nature of reflection is that is entirely
| internal, and we don't really know in what manner dogs have
| cognition.
|
| But, the trend seems to be that we only learn more about the
| inner lives of animals as time goes on. 100 years ago it was
| accepted that non-human animals were essentially automatons
| that didn't feel feelings or have emotions, or engage in any
| kind of thought, which we know now is not true.
| sorokod wrote:
| "What would dog mental reflection even look like?"
|
| Maybe "I acted in a way that displeased my owner, next time
| I will not act that way".
| pdonis wrote:
| _> "I acted in a way that displeased my owner, next time
| I will not act that way"_
|
| This kind of conditioning can take place without any
| mental reflection--we know this because _humans_ can be
| conditioned this way without even being consciously aware
| of it.
|
| This is not to say that the dog is unaware of having
| displeased their owner (which, as another poster pointed
| out, is in itself a form of mental reflection, although,
| as I responded, a very rudimentary one). It's just to say
| that the dog can be conditioned by this experience to not
| act that way next time, without being aware of it and
| without doing any mental reflection.
| sorokod wrote:
| Yes, could. Doesn't mean it must.
|
| Your use of the word rudimentary implies some sort of
| spectrum, that makes sense to me.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> Your use of the word rudimentary implies some sort of
| spectrum_
|
| Yes, it does. See my reply to abainbridge downthread.
| abainbridge wrote:
| Yep. When I walk into a room containing my dog and the poo it
| did on the carpet two hours earlier, it is sorry about what
| it did.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> When I walk into a room containing my dog and the poo it
| did on the carpet two hours earlier, it is sorry about what
| it did._
|
| This shows that the dog knows it did something you didn't
| want it to do, yes. I'm not sure it shows "thinking about
| ourselves, scrutinising and evaluating what we do and why
| we do it", which is how the article this discussion is
| about described "mental reflection". Our dogs have made
| messes in our house and have shown evidence that they know
| they're not supposed to, but I see no evidence that they
| have done any reflection on why they did it.
|
| Of course "mental reflection" is not an all or nothing
| thing, obviously there is a continuum of possibilities. So
| a more precise phrasing of my question might be: is there
| any evidence that dogs can perform mental reflection at a
| point on that continuum anywhere near the point where
| humans do it? Or are they only capable of it at a point on
| the continuum much, much closer to the other end, the "no
| reflection at all" end?
| sorokod wrote:
| What would a metric for measuring distance on this
| continuum look like?
| pdonis wrote:
| I'm not sure since we don't have any good way of
| quantifying "amount of mental reflection". But that
| doesn't mean there isn't a large difference between dogs
| and humans in this regard.
| Mali- wrote:
| Pavlovian response. The dog associates pooing on the carpet
| with you punishing it/being upset with it.
| jacobmidtlyng wrote:
| Anecdote but my dog dreams a lot and sometimes mimics the
| sounds and motions she makes when we play together. Other
| times mimics chasing things. Seems like reliving her favorite
| activities. Might not be intentional but its a form of
| reflection.
| littlekey wrote:
| Seems like a fair assertion to me, accepting the fact that we
| have no way (yet?) of proving it one way or the other. Just
| from observing any animal I think the default assumption is
| that we're the only ones who ruminate about our own selves the
| way we do.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I like the author's positive outlook on life. Because when I see
| a dog act like that, especially in a family where a child has
| taken focus, I mostly see a prisoner longing for freedom.
|
| Me and my dog have been exclusive for almost a decade now. We
| have traveled across europe, always by my side. Off leash even, I
| have always wanted to give my dog the most freedom possible. To
| heck with human rules.
|
| I've mostly worked remotely during my dog's entire life, so I've
| always been there, and we've always been able to take a long walk
| outside.
|
| But at the end of the day we have to go home, and I have to fall
| asleep on the couch after dinner, and I have to work for hours
| and hours from home, or remote workspaces.
|
| So even with all the freedom my dog enjoys, I still feel like it
| would want more. We have lived in houses with yards, and my dog
| has lazily spent every single moment outside, in the sun, in the
| grass. But I still feel like it's insufficient.
|
| I have claimed this dog as mine, so it goes where I go, not where
| it wants to go.
|
| If my dog could decide it would have probably died a harsh death
| in the streets a long time ago. But the dog doesn't understand
| that. I believe a dog values freedom more than its immediate
| personal safety.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> I believe a dog values freedom more than its immediate
| personal safety._
|
| Why do you believe that? Bear in mind that our domesticated
| dogs of today are very different from their wild ancestors (or
| from wolves, their closest wild relatives).
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| > I believe a dog values freedom more than its immediate
| personal safety
|
| Think you're underestimating how much your dog probably likes
| you...
|
| Dogs have a different relationship to their owner than people
| do with their best friends or parents.
|
| It's like the best parts of each relationship wrapped into one
| for dogs.
| amrocha wrote:
| And sometimes relationships are toxic. Yes, the dog stays
| with its owner, most times at a detriment to its own health.
| Satam wrote:
| I think you're right that for a dog to live its best life it
| needs the ability to spend a lot of time outdoors with relative
| freedom. Our labrador had the chance to live like that in an
| excessively very large garden for his last 4 years. I'm glad he
| got that, I think it made his life much better. Looking back,
| when he stayed with us in an apartment he must've been
| depressed.
| grahamjameson wrote:
| I would like to expand on this and suggest that this applies
| to humans as well.
| gretch wrote:
| In the US, people tend to look at me weird when I tell them
| my dog lives outside. Some of them probably think I'm a
| heartless or uncaring dog owner.
|
| When I first adopted him, I tried inside first, and he was
| unhappy and anxious, and so much of that went away when he
| was chillin outside.
|
| I think humans often wrongly project their own preferences
| onto dogs.
| vundercind wrote:
| Totally normal in the country, in the US. No fence or
| anything, either, if you've got enough land.
| mejutoco wrote:
| Not saying it is your case, but I want to add:
|
| I think it also depends on the mental stimulation. Hiking I
| see many country houses big gardens. The dogs in them are
| rarely walked, and bark at anything that passes in ftont of
| the house all day long.
|
| I think a dog that lives in a house but gets proper
| stimulation and walks is happier that thosr garden dogs.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Off leash even, I have always wanted to give my dog the most
| freedom possible. To heck with human rules.
|
| I regularly meet people like that when I'm camping. I find it
| pretty frustrating. So many rules like that have basis in
| reality, they are not just meant to annoy.
| gretch wrote:
| As a dog owner, I agree with you.
|
| I KNOW that my dog would never hurt anyone.
|
| But I also know that no one else in the world has spent
| hundreds of hours with my dog, and to them he is a strange
| and large animal. Inevitably some of these ppl probably have
| some kind of childhood trauma related to dogs.
|
| So I always have him leashed where the rules are to have a
| leash.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| My un-favorite is the people with dogs on the spring loaded
| extending leashes, who let their little crazy dog come
| running at my feral-parents dog from a distance, announcing
| "don't worry...my dog is friendly.".
|
| The people _never_ ask if my dog on her 2 meter leash (the
| law in Arizona, btw) is friendly, dangerous, anything. They
| just announce that their dog isn't dangerous to us.
|
| So often the small dog runs up to my dog's face full speed,
| centimeter from her nose, gets satan-barked at and driven
| away from us. she's sensibly trying to protect me and her
| from the little barely tethered full speed maniac.
|
| The people ask if my dog was abused. Nope: had her since
| she was three months old, the feral mom and others were all
| adopted. They just don't seem to consider that _they_ were
| aggressive, in dog body language. And that's hopefully eye
| opening for them.
| Fomite wrote:
| This. As a dog owner, my dog remains on a leash. I don't
| know you. I don't know your dog.
|
| More than once, I've been put in the position where my dog
| is getting agitated because they're on leash, their dog
| can't be controlled because they're off leash, and we're
| rapidly approaching the "Swift kick or risk injury" stage.
|
| "My dog is off leash because I want them to have freedom"
| is a profoundly selfish decision if you're in a place to
| encounter other dogs.
| bartread wrote:
| > "My dog is off leash because I want them to have
| freedom" is a profoundly selfish decision if you're in a
| place to encounter other dogs.
|
| This is cultural, I think. In the UK at least it's often
| the norm for dogs to be off leash in open areas like
| commons (public land, usually grassy or wooded, or a mix
| of the two), or in other settings where they're away from
| roads and won't encounter livestock.
|
| On public footpaths in the countryside farmers will put
| up signs indicating where livestock are and where dogs
| need to be kept on leash. The rest of the time, again,
| most dogs will be off leash.
|
| Compliance is really high, with almost all dog owners I
| see following these rules.
|
| There's a deterrent as well: if your dog is bothering
| farm animals the farmer is within their rights to shoot
| the dog.
|
| I do think the post you're responding to has a very naive
| view of dog psychology though. Thousands of years of
| selective breeding means that dogs are fundamentally not
| wild animals, and as such their behaviours and needs are
| quite different from their wild relations, such as
| wolves. Many breeds of dog are so far removed that they
| would very likely be incapable of surviving in the wild:
| I'm thinking principally of designer breeds like pugs
| which, overall, I strongly disapprove of.
| Unearned5161 wrote:
| this video corroborates your cultural hypothesis
|
| https://youtu.be/3GRSbr0EYYU?si=Q15kFkFBE-aW2ail
| darby_nine wrote:
| Interesting that livestock is the primary concern--I'd
| imagine interactions with other dogs (which can be highly
| stressful, though this varies a lot from dog to dog)
| would be the primary issue these days.
| mhb wrote:
| I realize this question is likely not to be appreciated
| by many, but do you not know whether your dog is male or
| female?
| carom wrote:
| I go to campsites and wilderness areas where dogs are allowed
| off leash. It is pretty much the best thing I can do for my
| dog. She mostly sleeps in the dirt all day after a morning
| hike when we are camping. I have a radio collar and a
| directional antenna so I can find her if she runs off, but
| she never has. Even on long backpacking trips she has always
| been within a few hundred feet. Obviously, make sure your
| dog's temperament is correct for the situation, but camping
| and hiking with a dog off leash is a joy.
| fyt2024 wrote:
| "I go to campsites and wilderness areas where dogs are
| allowed off leash." In the US?
|
| I move with my golden retriever back to the states. Should
| someone have a dog friendly place to rent in NJ close to
| NYC, Hoboken....
| jxcl wrote:
| In the US, wilderness area is a specific legal term[1],
| which have very restrictive rules about what visitors are
| allowed to do. Very specifically, dogs are _not_ allowed
| off-leash in wilderness areas, because they can disturb
| the local wildlife, and the stated goal of wilderness
| areas is to protect the local wildlife to the highest
| extent possible.
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness#United_States
| williamstein wrote:
| The laws are more nuanced than you suggest. Here is a
| government website [1] that mentions dogs and says "Dogs
| must be under control at all times. Dogs can harass,
| stress, injure or kill wildlife; annoy fellow hikers and
| introduce disease. Some wilderness areas require dogs be
| leashed at all times."
|
| I have recently been in Mount Baker's wilderness where
| dogs off leash away from trailheads are fine and also in
| Mount Shasta wilderness where pet dogs are not allowed
| even on leash. There is latitude for local tweaks to the
| rules in specific wilderness areas across the US. The US
| also has vast swaths of BLM and other lands where all
| kinds of fun recreation (hunting, dogs off leash, OHV's,
| and all kinds of other things are allowed).
|
| [1] https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/psicc/specialplaces/?c
| id=stel...
| mock-possum wrote:
| Unfortunately these rules punish dogs and good owners, while
| they're smugly ignored by bad owners.
|
| A well behaved dog off-leash is not a problem - but the rule
| isn't against badly behaved dogs or inattentive owners - the
| rule is against off-leash, _period_. It isn't fair to the
| good ones.
| danielschreber wrote:
| A good dog prefers to be on a leash.
|
| c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Bark
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I adopt older rescue dogs which tend to be anxious and
| reactive with strange dogs. Sometimes when I go to a public
| place where dogs are required to be leashed, an unleashed dog
| will charge or approach my leashed dog who reacts violently
| and I have to intervene- often lifting my dog in the air
| while trying to fight off the unleashed dog with my legs.
| These off leash dog people are creating a huge hazard, and
| making it unsafe for people to walk reactive or anxious dogs.
| There are also many people that are terrified of even a
| "friendly" off leash dog, and are being terrorized and unable
| to escape. They will chant "he's friendly, he's friendly"
| instead of getting control of their dog.
|
| Even the most friendly and easygoing dog becomes violent when
| they approach another dog and it lashes out.
|
| If I have to kill or harm your "friendly" illegally unleashed
| dog to keep me and my dog safe I will- luckily I have not had
| to. Please leash your dog.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I think we treat dogs wrong. Dogs are capable of resolving
| out most situations on their own, unless they're leashed. The
| leash changes everything and makes dogs more aggressive.
| Probably because they're scared about being attached to
| something when encountering a stressful situation like
| meeting other dogs.
|
| The only reason we emphasize the leash is because any idiot
| is allowed to get a dog and mistreat it. So we leash them for
| the owner's sake really, not for any inherent fault of the
| dog.
|
| So I can't argue with the rules to keep dogs leashed, I just
| refuse to do it.
|
| Mine is tiny, it flies in the cabin on planes even because
| it's under 8kg.
|
| But I've seen people with huge belgian malonois off leash,
| and they make a point of showing everyone around them how
| well trained it is. It walks next to them the whole time,
| they regularly give it commands to follow on their walk. So
| you have a responsibility with a big dog, because it can do
| more damage, and I think it's a good idea to demonstrate to
| any doubters around you that you can control it.
|
| But if you just let a pittie go and then stare at your phone,
| you shouldn't be allowed to handle an animal.
|
| But yeah this is a very hot topic because why should
| responsible people and good dogs be punished collectively
| because there are morons? I want more regulations in getting
| an animal. I see sooo many of them mistreated, neglected,
| when a child is born for example, now they're just being
| dragged along after the pram. Common human condition to be
| short sighted and get a dog as a fun item, but it lives for
| maybe 15 years. It's a huge commitment.
| jholman wrote:
| My sense is that dogs prioritize pack/family togetherness ahead
| of freedom. They don't value all other people (and to a dog,
| "people" means dogs, humans, and sometimes other species), but
| also they do not only value their "owner". They value their
| family, their pack. They want to be with those they want to be
| with, in action and in rest.
|
| After that, they value things like food, exercise, curiousity,
| and the absence of immediate pain.
|
| Most dogs, that haven't been traumatized, seem to have a pretty
| reasonable attitude toward personal safety: you mustn't let
| fear rule you. But some dogs, that have been traumatized, can
| be inordinately concerned with what they perceive to be their
| personal safety, in some cases to the point of (understandable,
| tragic) derangement.
| ecshafer wrote:
| > Off leash even, I have always wanted to give my dog the most
| freedom possible. To heck with human rules.
|
| Having dogs off of leashes is incredibly dangerous and
| irresponsible. The amount of children killed or injured by
| poorly restrained dogs is very high. A dog should be fenced in
| or on a leash if they are outside, full stop. Dog ownership
| should really have a license requirement.
| jholman wrote:
| > The amount of children killed or injured by poorly
| restrained dogs is very high.
|
| This claim is interesting, if true. Can you back it up? I
| spent 15 minutes on research, and my preliminary findings,
| using US statistics (I'm not American but it's just easier to
| google American stuff) suggest that:
|
| a) about 42 Americans die to dog attacks per year (about 0.13
| per 100k population) (very high confidence)
|
| b) it looks like about half of those are kids under 17, with
| ages 1-4 over-represented (very high confidence)
|
| c) most of those kids-dying-to-dogs deaths are not due to
| unrestrained dogs in public, but rather infants in their
| family homes, dying to dogs owned by the child's parents (low
| to medium confidence)
|
| For example, WP gathers media/journal reports on dog
| fatalities, and has 16 records for 2023 (so presumably about
| 1/3 of the fatalities for that year). 6 of those are
| children. Of those 6 children, 4 died to the family pet, the
| other 2 died to neighbours' dogs while in their own home.
| Extrapolating from that that suggests that the number of
| American children killed by poorly restrained dogs, other
| than their own family, is roughly 6. Out of around 10k child
| fatalities per year in the US.
|
| That doesn't seem "very high" to me, but that's just a matter
| of opinion. Do you have data that shows a different pattern?
| snozolli wrote:
| I'm not the other guy, and I don't have data, but the risk
| might be far higher _outside_ the US.
|
| These days, Americans mostly treat their dog like a family
| member. If you travel to developing nations, you're far
| more likely to run into packs of dogs roaming around. Packs
| of dogs will do things that a solo dog might never
| consider.
|
| It still happens in developed countries, but it's far more
| common these days to see it in poor, developing countries.
| They probably don't have the infrastructure to collect
| relevant statistics, either.
| vundercind wrote:
| Injuries are _way_ more common than death.
|
| [edit] Forbes: an estimated 800,000 people each year must
| seek medical attention after a bite. Hospital bills can be
| very expensive, and an ER visit could necessitate a dog
| bite lawsuit in order to recover monetary compensation for
| damages.
|
| https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/dog-attack-
| statistics-b...
|
| My sister in law was one of them, when she was five or so.
| Unprovoked run-up-and-bite from an off-leash dog. Had to
| have a tear duct rerouted and other work on her face.
| Messed up their finances really bad for a couple years,
| like "parents not eating dinner tonight, because there's
| only one can of spaghetti-o's" bad (they were fairly poor
| to begin with)
| chucksta wrote:
| What would a license solve?
| itishappy wrote:
| > Off leash even, I have always wanted to give my dog the most
| freedom possible.
|
| > I believe a dog values freedom more than its immediate
| personal safety.
|
| I'm sure you're convinced your dog would never hurt anyone, but
| are you really sure everyone else you encounter will feel the
| same? That's a huge amount of trust to put on both strangers
| and your dog, and I'd argue it has not been earned. I've never
| encountered an out of control dog, and I pray I don't have to,
| but I have friends who have. They broke ribs. Eyes would have
| been next. Please don't make me or anybody else hurt your dog.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| My roommates' dog got attacked by the neighbor dog 2 days ago.
| The dog ran across the street into our yard to attack him.
| There's a reason for leashes.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| >I mostly see a prisoner longing for freedom.
|
| Honestly, I think the dog would rather have a pack in a family
| (wife, kids etc.) than a single person to essentially spend the
| rest of their life with. My dog has so much more energy when
| the whole family is in the same room.
| BatFastard wrote:
| I believe you are projecting your feeling onto the dog. My
| dogs(2) favorite place in the world is curled up in the crook
| of my legs. But I do think solo dogs are lonely.
| amrocha wrote:
| How is the original comment projecting, but yours isn't?
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| I doubt your dog actually values or desires unlimited freedom
| in that way... most dogs seem to value family connection and
| are comforted by an owner calmly directing them and spending
| time with them. They usually prefer exploring outdoors with
| their family rather than alone.
|
| A lot of country/ farm dogs for example, who have limitless
| land to explore, will still follow their owners all day, and if
| the owner is gone tend to just sleep until they return.
| ItCouldBeWorse wrote:
| Imagine you life for a pack, and to defend that pack, you have to
| bring the part that is most sensitive - your noose, towards the
| enemy and bite it. And its okay- you are living the rocket life
| anyway. Fast in, fast out, all for one, one for all.
| bitwize wrote:
| Dogs derive much of their meaning and satisfaction in life from
| their humans. I know that when my wife and I leave ours in the
| house for too long, they start to become agitated; upon our
| return one of them, a Catahoula, has made a habit of complaining
| loudly, as is typical of her breed, as if to say "Where have you
| been? You belong here with us!" Oh, and a minute can count as
| "too long".
|
| Shadow gets excited upon hearing "do you want to come with?"
| because the repetitiveness of the outing doesn't matter. It's
| time spent with his human and that is more than enough. It's
| literally what he was made to do: in need of a faithful companion
| (other humans being too dodgy) we took one of nature's finest
| predators and engineered it over millennia, bending its will to
| need our companionship to the point of utter emotional
| dependency. Dogs, compared to wolves, even have extra muscles
| around their eyes whose sole purpose appears to be to enable them
| to emote to humans more effectively.
|
| Furthermore, dogs have the approximate intelligence of a human
| toddler... do any of you remember being three or four years old,
| and every single ride in the car was a new adventure to look
| forward to? I know that half of Hackernews considers it a
| biological impossibility to remember anything before about age
| seven, if that, but maybe when you have a toddler-level brain,
| things are still full of wonder that might be mundane or
| forgettable to adult humans.
| nirmel wrote:
| I would just like to comment that if you love animals, you should
| hate pets. The amount of animal factory farming (killing of
| animals often more intelligent than your canine) required to
| nourish a domesticated animal over the course of their lives is
| gross in all senses of the word gross.
| kleiba wrote:
| Alternatively, if you love animals, you should also love pets
| but not necessarily have one or support the concept.
| dbg31415 wrote:
| Mate, if ever there was someone who needed to spend an hour
| rolling around with a bunch of puppies, it's you. (=
|
| I hope you can at least understand that pets bring joy into the
| lives of their owners. It doesn't all have to make perfect
| sense.
|
| In the grand scheme of things, we're all just temporary cosmic
| dust, right? And dogs are a great daily reminder to focus on
| the small moments of happiness whenever you can find one.
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| then buy a vegetarian/vegan pet :) rabbits, mice, hamsters etc.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| with a name such as nirmel it sounds a bit like your just salty
| because garfield has tried to mail you to abu dhabi like 100
| times
| standfest wrote:
| As a humorous reference I recommend to watch this rather old tv
| commercial: https://youtu.be/ExnWRuniooY?feature=shared
| tanepiper wrote:
| Looking forward to this - very in line with the philosophy my
| wife writes about https://busydoggie.com/home/blog/
| Ygg2 wrote:
| Talk about kinicism.
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