[HN Gopher] I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)
___________________________________________________________________
I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)
Author : ctoth
Score : 263 points
Date : 2024-08-13 14:11 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (jdstillwater.blogspot.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jdstillwater.blogspot.com)
| more_corn wrote:
| For my part, I 'kept the faith,' and continued searching for
| Reason.
|
| This is science. Theory says one thing, but what does the
| evidence show?
| pulvinar wrote:
| Theory and evidence will show the same thing here. If you've
| got the right theory. And a common toaster.
| jorgemendes wrote:
| The relevant question here is: what version of NetBSD is the
| toaster running?
| pimlottc wrote:
| (2012)
|
| I wonder how much the fraction of toasters that contain
| electronic components has increased since then.
| netsharc wrote:
| I have a feeling the basic cheap toaster has remained unchanged
| for decades.
|
| Ah, but your question is what % of toasters is now non-basic...
| scohesc wrote:
| The anecdote of walking into a flooded band room to unplug a
| submerged power bar is uhh.... "shocking" to say the least.
|
| I would never walk over to a live, submerged power bar to unplug
| it. Especially with your feet in the water. Very risky.
| netsharc wrote:
| > They are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob;
| their wisdom was received, not crafted. It doesn't need to be
| crafted, because it is already known, established, beyond
| question (but demonstrably wrong).
|
| Fwiw I wouldn't do it either... But I guess if there's a valid
| reason, it's good to know the risk is apparently (as this
| article says...) exaggerated..
| greatgib wrote:
| Personally I think that it is how you finish with a Darwin
| award. Being overly confident. Same kind of thing as driving a
| bicycle without a helmet because you are used to and never had
| a problem or like working on fixing your wall power plugs
| without stopping the electricity because "it is ok, you will
| not touch the metallic part of the live wires"
| thrawaway3292 wrote:
| I can't get over the irony of doing this because one was
| previously wrong about something they thought they were right
| about.
| rendang wrote:
| "Power bar" is that a Commonwealth English term? As an
| American, power bar sounds like something you would eat
| gumby wrote:
| It's what we say in Australia.
|
| If you purchase an edible "power bar" anywhere (not just
| America) you can be sure it has and can provide no power. It
| might have a little energy stored as a carbohydrate though.
| gumby wrote:
| Why? If both your feet are in the water (or one, for that
| matter) there's no current flow. But do be sure to pull the
| plug from the wall by grasping the plastic cord and not
| touching anything else dry.
|
| The rest of the time don't ever pull the plug out by the cord,
| even though NEMA requires some appliances to use a power cord
| with a special bar in it to defend against such mistreatment.
| nuclearsugar wrote:
| I've always figured any device containing a capacitor would fry
| some part of the board when water short circuited it. Wrong
| thinking?
| NotBoolean wrote:
| Unless they are charged they are no different from any other
| component.
|
| Capacitors can keep their charge for a long time, especially
| big ones. But you can discharge them by trying to run the
| device when it's not plugged in or waiting a few
| minutes/hours/days.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Most capacitors are drained heavily just by being unplugged for
| a short period of time, as the other poster mentioned.
|
| The other thing is that the capacitor would need to somehow be
| shorted to a component it wasn't supposed to... instead of just
| itself. Shorting to itself is relatively safe (although might
| result in a pop and some arcing).
|
| For something like a toaster (especially the old school ones
| with just a dial to control toast degree) they're all
| mechanical contrivances. No electronics to speak of.
| Obscurity4340 wrote:
| But what would happen if you Microwaved a Toaster?!
| romwell wrote:
| This kills the microwave
| jaredhallen wrote:
| A few years ago, an 8 port Cisco 2960 that was under my
| management went offline. This switch was in a plastic NEMA box
| mounted on the outside of a ski lift. When I went to imvestigate,
| I found that a small glacier had formed over the NEMA box, and
| had ripped the door off the box. When I got there, the box was
| full of ice, which was in the process of melting. The switch was
| still running, but the ice had ripped the trunk patch cable out -
| apparently the root cause of the switch going down. I unplugged
| it and extracted it from the ice, and dumped a not-insignificant
| quantity of water out from inside the switch. I let it dry out
| for a couple days, got a new cover for the NEMA box (which I
| screwed shut this time in addition to the little flip latch) and
| it's been running fine ever since. Who'da thunk?
| bitwize wrote:
| I found an HP Elite 8200 behind a dumpster in the rain once.
| Brought it home, examined the innards, confirmed there was no
| rust. Let it dry for a few days while I waited for the hard
| disk to arrive from Amazon (it was once a corporate box, so its
| permanent storage had been removed and securely disposed of).
|
| Sparked it up, it worked fine. I use it as a repo/build server
| to this day.
| codelikeawolf wrote:
| It's always interesting to me to see what you can get away with
| washing/getting wet without ruining it. I bought a bunch of vinyl
| 45's off of eBay several years ago and they were pretty gross. I
| stumbled across a forum where someone recommended washing them
| with water and a little bit of dish soap. As you can probably
| imagine, a lot of people freaked out in the responses and said it
| was a terrible idea. I gave it a whirl because the records were
| cheap and they sounded _perfect_ after they dried. There was no
| warping or damage, although a few of the labels got a little
| messed up (but the needle doesn 't go there anyways, so I didn't
| mind). I guess you're supposed to use distilled water, but
| Chicago water worked just fine.
| sonofhans wrote:
| Nice. Once, just for fun, I followed online advice and cleaned
| a record with wood glue. It takes some time to dry, but it's
| really fun, and the record was _spotless_ afterwards.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Most vinyls are made from PVC. That's actually where the name
| comes from: the V in polyvinyl chloride. So they are actually
| pretty resistant and can deal with a significant portion of the
| stuff found in your cleaning cabinet.
| buildsjets wrote:
| First, they are called "records", not "vinyls." Do you call
| your compact discs "polycarbonates?" Second, the records was
| working with were not vinyl. He said 45's, and most 45's were
| pressed in Styrene, not PVC. It is a lot more susceptible to
| both warping and scratching than vinyl.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| I'd be more worried about a scrub sponge than the water itself.
| Those things scratch metal
| buildsjets wrote:
| The commonly accepted way to clean records among audiophiles is
| to use an ultrasonic cleaner, and a homemade cleaning solution
| containing some industrial attractants and anti-static
| additives that are recommended by the Library of Congress, but
| a few drops of dish soap works about the same. You don't need a
| lot, just enough to break the surface tension. There's usually
| a motor that slowly spins the record so that the label never
| gets submerged, and there are label protectors with o-ring
| seals that you can use while rinsing to protect the label.
|
| The distilled water is mostly needed to avoid deposits from
| water spots after the rinse water evaporates. This can be
| mitigated with a vacuum drying system, which you can buy for
| between $25 and $500.
| hughdbrown wrote:
| My son is starting his first week of high school. I am
| recommending to him that he pose related questions to his physics
| teacher:
|
| - "Is it okay to wash a toaster in a dishwasher?"
|
| - "Is it okay to put an electric hair drier in a fish tank when
| it is plugged in?"
|
| And I am hoping he gets a very productive year of science for the
| effort.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| If he's anything like my high school science teachers he'll be
| told to shut up and hated by his peers for daring to ask
| questions.
| jccalhoun wrote:
| We loved to get my high school physics teacher off on
| tangents by asking questions about weird things or stories
| about how he almost died or something
| c22 wrote:
| I often run my (PCB) boards through the dishwasher after
| soldering components to them. To clean off any flux that might be
| on them.
| fransje26 wrote:
| A small health PSA from a previous poster [0]:
| The real risk isn't really to the toaster (who cares, it's just
| a toaster, and even if it starts on fire when you plug it in,
| you're probably watching it pretty closely). No,
| it's that you leach lead or other such nasties (sealing
| rubbers, PCB epoxies, what-have-you) into your dishwasher and
| start eating them when they get redeposited onto your dishes.
| Lead isn't that harmful... except when you eat it. Don't eat
| lead.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41242348
| romwell wrote:
| I'm sure the boards are fine after that.
|
| Wouldn't feel so great about the dishes you put into the
| dishwasher afterwards.
|
| Ain't no getting fine metal dust out of porcelain, and idk what
| else got washed off of those boards.
| KolenCh wrote:
| I have a similar but less extreme experience.
|
| I have a Tommee Tippee prep machine for baby formula milk. The
| part it has water coming out got so dirty after months of use.
| Due to lack of sleep like any father of newborn does, I flip it
| upside down and clean it with running water, and then I found out
| all the water finds its way into the machine.
|
| Then I completely disassemble it, I use a dehumidifier to blow
| dry air directly to the screen that water made its way between
| the glasses.
|
| Then after it is completely dried, I put it back, it continued to
| work.
|
| So happens I'm a physicist too.
|
| Now I should find an electronics to throw into the dish washer.
| Unfortunately I already get rid of my toaster because it got so
| dirty, I should have kept it.
| pipes wrote:
| I've owned the same machine for five years. I haven't inspected
| the bit where the water comes out. Maybe I should. Though
| neither of my two kids seem to have been harmed!
| KolenCh wrote:
| It looked like the water going down splashed some milk back
| to there repeatedly and dried and formed some sort of
| crystallized milk powder that looks quite disgusting. I would
| recommend a wipe.
| romwell wrote:
| >Unfortunately I already get rid of my toaster because it got
| so dirty
|
| I highly doubt that a dishwasher run would change that.
|
| The real reasons not to use the dishwasher are:
|
| -- dishwasher isn't a replacement from scrubbing
|
| -- caked-on grease will still be there
|
| -- you'd need to clean your dishwasher afterwards (more work)
|
| -- it's far easier to shake the bread crumbs out _when they 're
| dry_ (and there's a convenient latch on the bottom for that)
| than if they're wet and stuck to the insides
|
| -- There's a potential for rust to form _somewhere_ inside the
| toaster, which will not make it work (or look) any better. That
| 's not specific to toasters.
|
| Crumpled aluminum foil does wonders for cleaning metallic
| surfaces from rust and burned grease though. And chemical
| solutions like 409 can make everything else sparkling clean.
| metadat wrote:
| The "running blow hair dryer in a water bucket or aquarium" story
| checks out: .https://youtube.com/watch?v=oJNbBP5MNE8
| exmadscientist wrote:
| R&D electrical engineer here! I have to do this sort of thing
| _all the time_ and can confidently tell you it 's pretty normal.
|
| The real risk isn't really to the toaster (who cares, it's just a
| toaster, and even if it starts on fire when you plug it in,
| you're probably watching it pretty closely).
|
| No, it's that you leach lead or other such nasties (sealing
| rubbers, PCB epoxies, what-have-you) into your dishwasher and
| start eating them when they get redeposited onto your dishes.
| Lead isn't that harmful... except when you eat it. Don't eat
| lead.
|
| In fact, if you have a dedicated dishwasher for this (or
| ultrasonic cleaner! those are pretty awesome, most of the time,
| for most things!), I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to do this!
| You know what we call those kinds of things where I work? Parts
| washers. You know what we wash in them... circuit boards! It's
| fine! Circuit boards are cleaned with aqueous solutions all the
| time as part of normal manufacturing! If you don't have a
| dedicated dishwasher... well, I wouldn't do it then, but if you
| _must_ , you'll want to run the dishwasher a few more times,
| empty, with a strong detergent, preferably a lead-chelating one.
| (You might also make one of those runs with dishwasher cleaner,
| and strike the whole "yearly dishwasher cleaning" task off your
| to-do list for the first time this... uh, decade?)
|
| You will, of course, want to dry things well. This is both easier
| and harder with a toaster. Easier because, well, toasters get
| hot, and this will get any nooks and crannies dry. Harder because
| one of the tricks to get things dry faster after they come out of
| a parts washer is to rinse them in alcohol, because alcohol dries
| very fast. You, uh, don't want to do that with a toaster. At
| least not one you intend to run any time soon.
| floam wrote:
| Poof, it's dry now
| kragen wrote:
| dishwashers normally dry the dishes by heating them with an
| electric heating element; this is more likely to damage
| electronics than the water
|
| there are also some electronic components that won't deal well
| with water, especially strong streams of water. microphones and
| speakers come to mind, because they commonly include exposed
| paper, thin membranes, and sponges. i'm thinking an ocxo would
| also be a problem both because overheating it can cause rapid
| aging and hysteresis and because drying out the fibrous
| insulation is going to be hard
| axus wrote:
| Yep a toaster (oven) and hair dryer have to operate while
| getting very hot but most devices aren't supposed to get hot.
| krackers wrote:
| >You, uh, don't want to do that with a toaster.
|
| Maybe I'm slow, but what goes wrong if you rinse a toaster with
| alcohol?
| lucb1e wrote:
| I guess the joke is that it evaporates rather easily and it's
| rather flammable, especially fumes that are nicely pre-mixed
| with air for completer combustion. But that's just my guess
| at what they meant, author should ideally confirm
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| I may be too used to RoHS2. I had completely forgotten that
| electronics could have more than a trace amount of lead in
| them.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| I have cleaned keyboards and coffee pad machines in the
| dishwasher several times. Not sure it is recommended, but the
| things came out clean and after prolonged drying worked flawless
| every time.
| llimos wrote:
| Jewish law requires some new utensils to be ritually immersed in
| water before use[1]. There are differences of opinion around
| electrical appliances, but I have successfully dunked toasters,
| cheese toasters, and many other small appliances, let them dry
| for a few days, and never had any issues.
|
| In fact, had OP found this[2] article, they would have seen that
|
| > Practice has demonstrated that immersion generally does not
| harm most equipment if allowed three days to dry out.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevilat_Kelim
|
| [2] https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/tevilas-keilim-
| a-p...
| perihelions wrote:
| Sorry for digressing, but what's a cheese toaster? That sounds
| exceedingly interesting.
| seizethecheese wrote:
| Sounds like a toaster oven to me
| jajko wrote:
| I'd expect regular sandwich toaster with humongous amount of
| cheese in between bread. Not a bad thing per se, poor/busy
| man's source of calzones, just not a good way to make regular
| lunches/dinners since nothing that comes out is very healthy
| in non-small amounts.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Maybe a raclette machine?
|
| https://www.amazon.fr/raclette-
| electrique/s?k=raclette+elect...
| Alupis wrote:
| Are appliances such as toasters considered a culinary utensil?
|
| Kitchen Utensil appears to be defined as `A kitchen utensil is
| a small hand-held tool used for food preparation.`[1]. Perhaps
| you don't actually need to submerge electronic appliances in
| water...
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_utensil
| b3ing wrote:
| Toasters are roach magnets
| mikedelfino wrote:
| On a related note, I wonder if people around the world are
| familiar with electric showers. Essentially, it's a resistance
| similar to the one found in a toaster, placed right inside the
| showerhead. It heats the water as it flows through. People
| hearing about it for the first time are usually shocked that we
| don't die from electrecution.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| I remember seeing my first of these in a small beachside hotel
| (pousada) in Brasil.
|
| In this case the wiring was over-stripped and copper was
| exposed at the shower head. I used it but I was very, very
| careful not to splash...
| yourusername wrote:
| I still wonder how electrocution is not a big issue. My local
| electricity codes say absolutely no electricity within zone 0.
| I get a bit nervous about hooking up IP 65 rated lights to a IP
| X4 rated switchbox a meter away from the shower head
| Alupis wrote:
| There's a reason you don't see this type of water heater in
| most of the world.
| mikedelfino wrote:
| I wonder, though, why there are so few incidents where this
| type of shower is prevalent, given that people not used to
| it are so worried. If the fatality rate were 0.0001%,
| hundreds of people would die every day.
| Alupis wrote:
| Just in this thread alone we've found several stories of
| people being mildly shocked by these devices while on
| vacation.
|
| It's not that people die every day from these devices,
| it's that in general this isn't a great way to heat water
| if you have alternatives available.
|
| I don't know about you, but I would prefer not to receive
| a shock, no matter how minor it might be, when I step
| into the shower...
| kragen wrote:
| yes, and that reason is mostly the kind of people who were
| asking the original poster how he made it to adulthood
| Alupis wrote:
| Right, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the plethora of
| "shocking" tales regarding these water heaters.
|
| I can count on zero hands the number of times my shower
| has given me a jolt, even a minor one.
|
| We mostly see these types of devices in relatively poor
| countries without the means to install more modern and
| safer alternatives, such as whole house water heaters.
| kragen wrote:
| no?
|
| i mean it's the same reason most people in the usa don't
| have a bidet in their house; it's not because they're too
| poor to afford one. technology adoption is path-dependent
| and mostly random, and fear makes people conservative.
| yes, there are a few people who are familiar with the
| actual risks and rewards of the different technologies,
| but they're vastly outnumbered by the pre-galilean minds
| who are entirely guided by conventional wisdom
|
| most people in the usa can count on zero hands the number
| of times they've sprayed water on the bathroom ceiling
| from their bidet, too
| Alupis wrote:
| This assumes a bidet is objectively better than a regular
| toilet. That is debatable.
|
| It's not debatable these electric showerheads are
| objectively better, just because some poorer communities
| around the world use them.
| kragen wrote:
| well, it only assumes that bidets are _subjectively_
| better to many people, which they certainly are; it doesn
| 't rely on the assumption of an objective, observer-
| independent scale of valuation in the way you're
| describing
|
| (bidets aren't an alternative to a regular toilet, and
| the fact that you think they are is a minor indicator of
| why it's difficult for even widespread, highly beneficial
| innovations to become universal even after centuries)
|
| not only is it debatable whether or not electric showers
| are better in that sense, i have in fact debated it; i
| refer you to
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41250642 and eagerly
| await your opinion
| Alupis wrote:
| If given the option, free of charge, to continue using
| electrified showerheads or using whole-home water
| heating... how many would continue to use electrified
| showerheads?
|
| The fact that they are only common in poor and
| impoverished areas, tells you everything you need to
| know.
|
| This argument is a lot like asserting instant-coffee is
| better than fresh brewed coffee because some people have
| no alternative choice.
| kragen wrote:
| probably most people would continue to use either what
| they're familiar with or what they think is fancier, with
| little regard to what they would actually like more--in
| the same way that many people have opted to live in
| suburbs where the commute makes them miserable, or drink
| and smoke heavily despite the impact on their health, or
| date abusive partners. a pretty large fraction would
| continue using electric showers just because they're
| familiar with them--but that is at best only a very weak
| argument. we can do better than that by debating their
| actual advantages and disadvantages, as i did in the
| linked comment, rather than mindlessly subscribing to
| _vox populi, vox dei_
|
| if given the option, free of charge, to install a bidet
| in your house, would you take it? evidently not, because
| you don't know what a bidet is or how to use it. the same
| could be said of most people installing a computer in
| their house 50 years ago
|
| using a cellphone instead of a landline was only common
| in impoverished areas 30 years ago, and even today,
| having front-door locks that are hard to pick are still
| only common in impoverished areas. also, speaking lingala
| is only common in impoverished areas. that's not because
| there's anything wrong with lingala
|
| as it happens, my wife prefers instant coffee to fresh-
| brewed coffee
| mikedelfino wrote:
| You're absolutely right that they're common in poor
| countries and that we can't afford more modern and safer
| alternatives. Not to mention that the more modern
| alternatives heat the water much more effectively,
| providing way more comfort.
| kragen wrote:
| no, electric showers heat the water much more
| effectively, providing way more comfort; here in
| argentina i have to wait 45 seconds or so for the shower
| to stop running cold because the hot water has to run all
| the way from the hot-water tank in the kitchen. and i
| have to cut the shower short after about 20 minutes
| because i run out of hot water. i had the same two
| problems when i lived in the usa, though constant-
| recirculation systems have become more common there in
| recent years, solving one of them
|
| electric showerheads, by contrast, provide instant heat,
| and they provide it for as long as you care to shower.
| what they don't provide is hot water in the sink for
| washing dishes, unless you take the dishpan to the shower
| to fill it. and if they're incorrectly installed they can
| be deadly, but that's a pretty rare problem both with
| hot-water tanks and with electric showers. i've never
| talked to anybody who knew anyone killed by an electric
| shower, and the nature of electrocution is that it's
| unlikely to injure you without killing you
|
| (tankless hot-water heaters, called _calefones_ , are
| common here in argentina, and they also solve one of
| those two problems--the other one. rooftop evacuated-tube
| hot-water thermosiphon hot-water heaters are also
| somewhat popular here)
|
| i think that, aside from dishwashing, the main advantage
| hot-water tanks have over electric showers is that
| historically natural gas has been much cheaper than
| electricity. since chinese solar panel producers have
| driven the cost of solar panels down by a factor of 20,
| that's not necessarily true anymore--but the
| intermittency of solar-energy production favors hot-water
| tanks, if anything, even more strongly
|
| apparently electric showers are common in the uk, which
| is not a poor country:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41250251 but with
| much better safety measures than i'm used to seeing in
| latin american countries
| mikedelfino wrote:
| You're right that electric showerheads provide instant
| heat. My comparison was based on the electric showerhead
| I have at home, which can't heat very much due to
| electrical limitations. It's definitely not the case of
| every installation. On the other hand, the hot water I
| experience when showering at the gym or in fancy hotels
| is extremely, extremely hot and much more comfortable on
| a cold day. I also see some wealthy people installing gas
| heaters in their homes, which is why I associated
| electric showerheads with a lack of options.
| kragen wrote:
| oh, yeah, i don't think an electric showerhead in my
| house would work very well at all; some dumbfuck wired it
| with 15-gauge wire (1.4mm diameter, safe for up to about
| 10 amps) and at 240 volts you need more like 40 amps to
| provide a comfortable shower, depending on water flow
| rate
|
| the entire house is on a single anemic 25-amp circuit
| breaker. at a low-flow 6 liters per minute (100g/s)
| heating from 15deg to 40deg (D temp = 25 kelvin) at 4.2
| joules/deg/gram, you need 10.5 kilowatts, which is 44
| amps at 240 volts. at 120 volts just forget about it
|
| i _have_ had a super cheap non-tankless electric shower
| in a couple of places i 've lived in argentina, which
| sucked. you would fill it up with water, plug it in to
| start heating the water, unplug it half an hour later to
| stop heating the water (hopefully before it overheated),
| and then open the valve at the bottom to run the shower.
| dangerous, inconvenient, _and_ uncomfortable
|
| on the other hand, if you're building an apartment
| building in brazil or a hotel in costa rica, there's
| nothing stopping you from including an 80-amp circuit in
| every bathroom for the electric shower. it's definitely
| cheaper than a hot-water tank or a tankless heater, and
| it might be safer too, since it might allow you to avoid
| running gas to the room
| michaelt wrote:
| Electric showers are very common in the UK - although the
| heater is in a wall-mounted unit, with the head on a hose,
| rather than the heater being in the head itself.
|
| The heating element has three layers - innermost, a wire that
| gets hot. Around that, a ceramic insulator. And outermost, a
| metal cover to protect the ceramic insulator. Then the
| heating element is mounted in a small water tank. And that,
| along with some other components, is put into a suitably
| waterproof outer plastic box. The insulation is of course all
| tested at the factory.
|
| The tank, heating element outer, and all the pipework in the
| general vicinity is then grounded, and the power supply
| passes through an RCD (our equivalent to a GFCI). There are
| also two or three temperature sensors, and a water pressure
| sensor.
|
| Installers also have to have an up-to-date electrical safety
| license - so for they know better than to (for example)
| compromise the waterproofing of the enclosure by adding extra
| holes to make the wiring simpler.
| kragen wrote:
| i'm pretty sure that the electric showers i've used didn't
| have the sealed magnesia insulating layer you're
| describing, nor were they connected to an rcd/gfci
|
| i do agree that the measures you're describing would make
| them much safer
| mikedelfino wrote:
| In some countries, electric showers use a metal coil as a
| heating element, similar to a spring, located directly in
| the showerhead. When you turn on the faucet, water fills
| the showerhead and touches the metal, effectively bringing
| the positive and negative wires into contact. The coil then
| heats the water as it flows out. Occasionally, the coil can
| oxidize or break if there's not enough water running to
| keep it cool. When that happens, most people replace it
| themselves.
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| A lot of things involving electricity in places with type-G
| plugs seem more dangerous if you don't know/assume that
| almost everything is grounded. Took me a while to realize
| that hairdrier he mentioned in the blogpost likely didn't
| have a ground connection in the plug.
|
| In the case of a toaster with a grounded frame, the most
| likely route for a short is straight to earth which will
| trip the RCD on that set of plugs.
| MathMonkeyMan wrote:
| I was literally shocked at a hostel in Nicaragua because
| whoever installed the heater didn't ground it. Those electrons
| wanted that sweet, positively charged earth and I was the
| fastest way to get there.
|
| I don't know if the circuit was through the running water or if
| it was the metal tap handles, but it was quite a jolt.
|
| edit: Now that I try to remember it, it was definitely either
| the tap handle or the metal pipes. ZAP.
| practicemaths wrote:
| Made me think of Electroboom's visit to Mexico.
|
| https://youtu.be/d1mPemYUrVc?si=C9zfy6jQJaO3BZ7e
| snozolli wrote:
| A soldier died in Iraq in 2008 because a _water pump_ wasn 't
| grounded.
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/27/military.electrocutions/
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Same experience in a Costa Rica hostel! Except in that case
| my skin just gently tingled where the water touched it. It
| was a case of, "I know that sensation, and I certainly
| shouldn't be feeling it in the shower"
| yurishimo wrote:
| That was one major adjustment when I visited Jordan last
| year. The electricity was so dirty that my laptop charging
| was outright buzzing while plugged in. Typing on it was
| like a gentle massage. Good times lol
| hammock wrote:
| Yeah I used one in Costa Rica... it was shocking me the whole
| time. I didn't realize until after my shower what was going on.
| Tomis02 wrote:
| > People hearing about it for the first time are usually
| shocked
| hooverd wrote:
| I'd hope they're grounded correctly.
| mikedelfino wrote:
| Next, you'd hope that houses have proper ground wires instead
| of empty holes for the third pin. :)
| throwway120385 wrote:
| In the US you're also allowed to use an ungrounded GFCI if
| you need to retrofit an existing electrical circuit and the
| ground wire wasn't provided originally.
| kragen wrote:
| i've been shocked by an electric shower, in peru. the hotel
| gave me a different room. normally the metal case around the
| heating element is grounded, which prevents this
|
| i don't remember ever seeing one here in argentina (perhaps
| they're illegal), but they're common in many countries
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| I have one of those at home in the UK, in fact I only recently
| changed the older unit that was getting long in the tooth. The
| house is old and an electric shower the only way to have a
| proper shower. I also have a shower extension, a rubber tube
| with two inputs you connect to the hot and cold taps in the
| bath tub and which outputs cold water if you hold it lower than
| the taps and hot water if you keep it above the taps, but never
| a mix of the two.
|
| For those who don't know, the sinks and bathtubs in UK homes
| and businesses often have two completely separate taps: one for
| hot, one for cold. You're supposed to fill the sink with water
| from both and "wash" your hands (or your dishes) in it. No, you
| don't rinse them afterwards. It's just soap, it's good for you.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| > It's just soap, it's good for you.
|
| Sorry, but I really can't tell - was that sarcasm?
| simonh wrote:
| Oh yes.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Yes. The point is that it's not _just_ soap but soapy water
| that has just washed off all kinds of gunk and dirt off
| your hands or dishes. It 's a good idea to rinse it off.
| But, apparently, that's not the done thing in certain
| sectors of British society, e.g. see:
|
| _I wash up like a normal person: I fill a sink with hot
| water and washing-up liquid, and scrub the dishes in order
| of what needs the least attention. Glasses need a quick
| wipe and then they're put aside, while the cutlery has a
| nice little soak at the bottom. You finish with the pans.
| If at any point the bubbles are not sparkling white, the
| water is dirty and needs to be refilled. I then move the
| dishes to the drying rack, without rinsing them off. In my
| opinion, this is the cleanest, most hygienic way of doing
| things, because everything has a little bath in the sink._
|
| https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/may/06/you-
| be-...
|
| To be fair, dish washing turns out to be a very
| controversial thing. When I was doing my degree I lived in
| a shared student house with a British girl who was muslim,
| a Chinese girl and a British girl of unknown religion. The
| Chinese girl and I always insisted on re-doing the dishes
| after the second British girl did them the "normal" way as
| above. Then the muslim girl did them all over again with
| her own sponge to make sure they hadn't touched pork. But
| nobody picked up the used loo roll tubes from the bathroom.
| They piled up like abstract art :D
| kelnos wrote:
| Don't you then have soap residue on your glasses, plates,
| and cutlery? I assume it's probably not a problem for
| your health to consume trace amounts like that, but I'd
| be surprised if it doesn't affect the taste of whatever
| you later eat using them.
| klondike_klive wrote:
| As an aside, I wonder if places like the UK with a lot of
| antiquated plumbing are responsible for more than their fair
| share of safecrackers? Every time I see a heist movie with
| someone crouching, grimly turning a dial an almost
| imperceptible amount I think back to the last B&B shower cold
| tap I used. A few degrees turn can often mean a large and
| uncomfortable temperature change.
| jiveturkey wrote:
| (2012)
|
| I did this in 1994 personally. It was fine. I am not a scientist
| and did not overanalyze it. It seemed obvious to me it would be
| fine. For whatever reason, since that one time I have never had
| the need to run any other toaster through the dishwasher again.
|
| This was a super simple basic toaster. I wouldn't do it with a
| modern one with all the various encoders and soft buttons and
| microelectroncs. Not for any scientific reason, just for similar
| reason as I wouldn't run my phone through the dishwasher.
| romwell wrote:
| I dunno why one would want to put the toaster into the
| dishwasher in any case.
|
| Any caked-on grease would still be there.
|
| The outside is easy to clean in any case, and the inside
| doesn't need to be sparkling (it won't be if you ever actually
| use the toaster in any case).
|
| There's a door on the bottom of the toaster to get the crumbs
| out; that's necessary maintenance, and it's far easier done if
| the toaster is dry. Adding water to crumbs will cause them to
| stick, so the dishwasher shouldn't be the _first_ thing in any
| case.
|
| Parts of my BBQ grill would fit into the dishwasher too, but
| that's not how I clean them either - dishwasher isn't a
| replacement for scrubbing.
|
| Oh, and there's absolutely a higher risk of getting rust on
| metals in a dishwasher. And cheap-ass toasters aren't made to
| be rust-proof throughout.
|
| The conventional ignorance of "don't put the toaster into the
| dishwasher" is based on at least _some_ truth... and the
| toaster 's instruction manual :)
| robotnikman wrote:
| I've done this with dirty keyboards before, it works pretty well
| actually!
| jmclnx wrote:
| I would never do it with a toaster :)
|
| But curious, how did you dry the keyboard ?
| robotnikman wrote:
| I just let it air dry for a day. I turned the heated dry
| option off on the dishwasher just in case.
| ropejumper wrote:
| Reminds me of that time my mom spilled a cup of coffee on
| the keyboard -- and then dried it with the hair dryer.
|
| We spent a few weeks using the other end of a paint brush
| to hit the keys whose caps melted off until we could get a
| new one.
| klodolph wrote:
| "GFCI" is maybe a bad name because it describes what the system
| is supposed to accomplish but not what it does.
|
| It interrupts the circuit in response to a current imbalance
| between hot and neutral. Kirchoff's laws... if the current is
| imbalanced, it must be going _somewhere else_.
| MathMonkeyMan wrote:
| Technology Connections has a good video on the topic, but you
| probably already knew that.
| klodolph wrote:
| Most of my electricity / electronics knowledge comes from
| books and old forum posts. I would have loved Technology
| Connections if it came out when I was younger.
| throwaway7ahgb wrote:
| New homeowners: Know where your GFCI reset switches are
| located.
|
| I just had a fun time debugging why some of my outlets weren't
| working. Turns out there was a GFCI tripped in the garage, a
| few rooms down from the outlet.
| klodolph wrote:
| I have never seen a GFCI reset switch in a different room
| from the outlet. I'm not surprised it exists, but it would
| make me unhappy.
| boricj wrote:
| In France (and apparently the rest of Europe too) our GFCIs
| are not located at the outlets. They are inside the
| electrical panels and protect a row of circuit breakers.
| EricE wrote:
| I've seen builders put the all the outlets for bathrooms on
| one circuit with the GFCI in one bathroom - typically the
| master bath. In my last house the outside outlets were on
| the GFCI with the outlets in the garage. Anything to save a
| few bucks as long as code allows it.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| You can daisy-chain the rest of the outlets in a circuit
| off of a single GFCI. They have two sets of terminals --
| one for the leg of the circuit that goes to the breaker
| panel and the other for attaching the rest of the circuit.
| kelnos wrote:
| GFCI outlets have two sets of terminals, line and load.
| Line is meant to take hot & neutral from the mains panel.
| For load, you can run wire from there to downstream regular
| outlets, and it will give them GFCI protection too.
|
| This is annoying when the outlets are in different rooms
| and it's not clear what's connected to what, but can save
| money when wiring up a bunch of outlets in a kitchen, for
| example, since a GFCI outlet can be $20 or more, while
| regular outlets usually only cost a couple bucks.
| vharuck wrote:
| I spent a whole night worried about electric hazards when the
| meat smoker killed an outlet outside my basement door. My
| wife's aunt, an electrician, asked if we checked the GFCI. I
| had read about it online, but didn't find the switch near any
| of the outside outlets. Nor was it by any of the inside
| outlets on the opposite side of the wall from the outside
| ones. Turns out, it was in the upstairs bathroom. Because why
| not?
| shireboy wrote:
| Curious after reading the post, I asked GPT:
|
| Sent by you: Can I put a toaster in the dishwasher?
|
| Sent by Copilot: It's not a good idea to put a toaster in the
| dishwasher. Toasters have electrical components that can be
| damaged by water, and it could be dangerous if water gets into
| the electrical parts. Instead, you can clean the exterior with a
| damp cloth and use a brush to remove crumbs from the inside.
|
| Is there anything else you need help with?
|
| Sent by you: I'm feeling adventurous and plan to let it dry out
| real well
|
| Sent by Copilot: I admire your adventurous spirit! However, even
| if you let it dry out thoroughly, there could still be hidden
| moisture that might cause electrical issues or even pose a fire
| hazard when you use the toaster again. It's really best to avoid
| putting any electrical appliances in the dishwasher.
|
| If you're looking for a safer way to clean your toaster, I can
| share some tips! Would you like that?
|
| Sent by you: I did it anyway.
|
| Sent by Copilot: Oh no! I hope everything turns out okay. Just to
| be safe, I recommend not using the toaster until you're
| absolutely sure it's completely dry, inside and out. You might
| want to leave it in a warm, dry place for several days.
|
| If you notice any unusual smells or sounds when you do try to use
| it, it's best to unplug it immediately and consider getting a new
| one. Safety first!
|
| Is there anything else I can help you with?
| nashashmi wrote:
| I used to ask electrical engineers who design building utilities
| if they ever touched a live wire with voltage running. If not,
| "how do you know it is really dangerous? How do you know it will
| electrocute you?"
|
| They don't. EVER. Want to talk to me again if they don't have to.
| #ConventionalIgnorance
|
| For reference, I touched 10k volts with microcurrents. It hurts!
| I touched 240 volts wire and felt the vibrations run up to my
| elbow before realizing what happened. It terrifies. And I touched
| 120v electricity leaking through a brick wall in vicinity of a
| lighting fixture. That hurts too much but doesn't kill.
| nashashmi wrote:
| And looks like this hurt people on HN.
| advisedwang wrote:
| > how do you know it is really dangerous? How do you know it
| will electrocute you?
|
| It is possible to learn from others. In fact, our society's
| entire foundation of knowledge comes from building on the
| knowledge of past generations and others in our current
| generation. Not everything needs to be verified from scratch by
| every user of the knowledge, and if it did we'd never make it
| past roman tech levels.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| It can be very lethal.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chair
| nashashmi wrote:
| > _The entire execution took about eight minutes. George
| Westinghouse later commented that, "They would have done
| better using an axe",[27] and The New York Times ran the
| headline: "Far worse than hanging".[28]_
|
| Looks like it takes a while to kill.
| snozolli wrote:
| I stopped watching the show _Ozark_ because of the episode where
| the saboteur takes an AC line and drops it into the water by a
| dock in order to electrocute someone. I 'm no expert in
| electricity, but I know that your body has to become a part of
| the circuit.
|
| Similarly, the pivotal moment at the end of _The Astronaut 's
| Wife_ (1999) had me groaning.
| gumby wrote:
| Don't forget the former president's story about the electric
| boats and sharks.
| bemao wrote:
| I haven't seen the episode in question, but from what I
| understand people be can electrocuted/drown from swimming in
| water with current running through it. It is for this reason
| that it is not recommended to swim in marinas.
|
| See e.g. https://www.electricshockdrowning.org/esd--faq.html
| raicem wrote:
| > These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about
| which they are completely ignorant, but they are strident in
| doing so because they are repeating what everybody knows. They
| are intellectually secure in the center of a vast mob; their
| wisdom was received, not crafted.
|
| This is an important takeaway for me, maybe even more than
| "electirc devices are washable".
|
| World is filled with conventional wisdom that limits us in
| countless directions. Knowing how things work empower us to break
| these "rules".
| Alupis wrote:
| It's not the water that's the issue generally - it's the
| minerals in the water.
|
| The article author got lucky this time - when electronics die
| from water contact, it's usually the minerals bridging
| connections and creating shorts. Letting the device dry does
| not remove those shorts. Some places have such hard water (lots
| of minerals) that evaporated water leaves calcium, limestone
| and other deposits on the surface of everything it's touched.
|
| Does that mean doing it once will always cause an issue? Of
| course not... but repeatedly doing this, and/or becoming used
| to washing electronics in the dishwasher is a recipe to ruin
| them in the long term.
|
| I would not personally want to play games with a toaster that
| can be replaced for $20 at your local Walmart...
| kragen wrote:
| dried calcium carbonate is not a very good conductor, and
| neither calcium carbonate nor calcium oxide is deliquescent
|
| (edit: i said 'calcium chloride' which is of course both
| wrong and irrelevant)
|
| i think the bigger issue with _electronics_ is overheating
| their electrolytic capacitors
| Renaud wrote:
| Would mineral deposits be sufficiently large and conductive
| that they would cause an actual issue between components?
|
| They would probably represent nothing more than minor stray
| resistance/capacitance.
|
| Assuming it was conductive enough, a scales bridge between
| higher voltage parts would just represent a path of material
| a few microns thick that would vaporize as soon as the
| toaster would be plugged in.
|
| For other electronic devices, any component with a hole, like
| a microphone, barometric, humidity sensor, or mechanical
| (HDD), is more likely to suffer a more permanent fate. If
| water gets inside a relay housing, chemicals from the washing
| liquid may damage or gunk the contacts and reduce their life.
| LCD screens, glued parts and thin plastics don't fare well in
| dishwashers either...
| throwway120385 wrote:
| A lot of household appliances use potted relays and
| conformal coatings. If you pull the control board out of
| your clothes washer you'll see what I mean. It's
| particularly important because the control board is often
| within spitting distance of a solenoid that's holding back
| 60-80 psi of water.
| tuatoru wrote:
| > Would mineral deposits be sufficiently large and
| conductive that they would cause an actual issue between
| components?
|
| > They would probably represent nothing more than minor
| stray resistance/capacitance.
|
| Spoken like someone who has never maintained any electronic
| devices. Skepticism should err on the side of risk
| management.
| jdietrich wrote:
| _> Would mineral deposits be sufficiently large and
| conductive that they would cause an actual issue between
| components?_
|
| A good proportion of water-damaged cellphones can be
| revived just by washing the logic board thoroughly in
| isopropyl alcohol. It's possible that this is due to small
| amounts of water trapped in crevices, but I've seen it work
| on boards that looked bone-dry under the microscope.
| autokad wrote:
| totally agree, I had an electrical device catch on fire
| because of this exact instance
|
| Once electronics gets wet (like stuff you plug into a wall),
| it usually should be discarded for safety's sake.
|
| edit: its not just that, the water causes the copper to
| oxidise and swell, touching places it shouldnt
| Flop7331 wrote:
| After you take it out of the dishwasher, rinse it with
| distilled water, then let it dry.
| boznz wrote:
| A $20 something you are about to throw away is the perfect
| thing to play games with.
| Retric wrote:
| It's the fire risk that's the issue not 20$.
| qingcharles wrote:
| I've always put my (dumb, wired) keyboards in the dishwasher
| and they have always come out great.
|
| I'm a statistic of one, though. I don't know if I just got
| lucky.
| 486sx33 wrote:
| Indeed, it does depend on the toaster. Conventional toaster OK as
| long as it fully dries. Some kind of fancy toaster with a
| microprocessor, well - it depends
| winternewt wrote:
| Are you saying it might no longer connect to the wifi?
| kragen wrote:
| it's nice to occasionally see a post-galilean mind
| amenghra wrote:
| I like their post Eleven Senses. Great blog!
|
| https://jdstillwater.blogspot.com/2019/12/eleven-senses.html
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| > These commenters are speaking authoritatively on subjects about
| which they are completely ignorant
|
| Welcome to the internet. First time here?
| solardev wrote:
| I was hoping they built a functional toaster inside the
| dishwasher, such that you could put bread in with your dishes,
| both would come out hot and ready, and the crumbs would be
| automatically washed away.
| a1o wrote:
| The big issue is not the water that will dry if you wait but that
| the hot water will make something that is glued or something that
| has two materials that expand different when heated break.
|
| There is no amount of letting it dry out or adding rice that will
| solve if things are apart.
| askvictor wrote:
| Also, corrosion/oxidation and any chemical interactions with
| Dish powder (if that was used) that might not be noticeable at
| first
| cmiller1 wrote:
| I assume most parts of a toaster are designed to handle a bit
| of heat
| fnord77 wrote:
| > "Sorry #5, but a toaster is an electrical device, not an
| electronic one, and I've already soaked an electrical device in a
| fish tank for several hours, while it was running."
|
| Not entirely true. Most modern toasters have some sort of
| electronics in them
| cassepipe wrote:
| Today I learnt that pure water is not conductive and than tap
| water is a poor conductor at 120V which I believe is the american
| standard...
|
| What about Europe's 230V ? Would he still have gone in the water
| to unplug the piano if he was in Europe ?
| Spellman wrote:
| Luckily we have equations for this!
|
| Assume that the water has a fixed resistance of R. You have
| increased the Voltage V about double.
|
| As a result of V=IR, the I, or current flow, will be doubled.
| Which in this case is probably a moderate tingle since R is so
| high.
|
| For reference, the heart muscles start getting involuntary
| twitches around 100mA, and at 200mA causes cardiac arrest. And
| the standard units of Voltage, Amp, and Ohm will serve you well
| here for any conversions.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > Would he still have gone in the water to unplug the piano if
| he was in Europe?
|
| Given that they did feel tingling, honestly I am not convinced
| one should follow that example anywhere on earth.
|
| The post also describes that the breaker thing trips when the
| electricity takes an "some other route than expected" (their
| words), which I'd say tingling is indicative of: some
| electricity was being conducted away via the water and, at some
| point, their foot. Yet the breaker no trip, so either it wasn't
| a protected circuit or they drew another wrong conclusion based
| on that aquarium observation which they expected to go
| differently based on a previously wrong conclusion.
|
| If you can assume the water has a similar conductivity as the
| tap water in the aquarium (not sure that's a safe assumption
| after it flooded a room with all sorts of dust and objects in
| it), and you can assume that your body can handle more
| electricity than the breaker needs to trip, then a fairly short
| distance ought to indeed insulate you well enough, but the
| objective was to get close and turn it off. The post sounded
| like they based this "I'll do it" opinion basically on the
| hairdryer-in-aquarium thing which we already know didn't go as
| expected. To me, the situations "hairdryer runs by itself in
| water" and "I, standing on a ground, stick my hand near the
| device's off switch in the water" are two very different
| things. There could easily have been further unknowns -- and
| apparently there were since the breaker didn't function in the
| way that this very post describes it should.
|
| Since moving to Germany I've often noticed wariness around
| "Halbwissen" (loaning the word since it carries extra
| connotation), meaning half-knowledge but not in the sense of
| "you know something about it!"; rather, you kinda know but you
| don't know the details and that causes overconfidence. That
| works out until it doesn't
|
| I don't honestly subscribe to that a whole lot: you can't know
| everything about everything and we use partial knowledge all
| day long for nearly every topic. Also electricity, I've noticed
| before a lot of mysticism and fear goes around unnecessarily.
| So I like the part where experimenting, when done carefully
| (letting it dry, using a protected circuit, being aware that it
| might fail and you should observe it first), is encouraged.
| However, this particular bit about going into the water and "I
| felt the electricity but everyone cheered me on!" is not what
| and how you're supposed to do these experiments
| sand500 wrote:
| Your GFCI outlet may not always trigger:
|
| https://youtu.be/SHGo-52wCDc?si=AzZ71UIpPYVjj31X
| subarctic wrote:
| I loved that video, it was really entertaining although I
| didn't see anything in there about GFCI outlets not triggering.
| The original article does mention how GFCIs don't trigger if
| current isn't flowing to ground and how that's actually fine
| (e.g. the hairdryer in water example)
| atoav wrote:
| As a electronics person with microscope-level repair experience:
| the problem isn't the water, it is what is in it. And it can
| become an issue weeks later when residues of minerals and
| detergent combined with current flows corroded your contacts
| away, leakage current ts flowing in all kinds of unintended
| places. PCBs are laminated and can do funny things when treated
| wrongly. Whether that kills the device or not is hard to say
| without knowing what is inside it. If in doubt open it, wash
| everything with isopropanol and a toothbrush. Or you know, using
| a ultrasonic cleaner with the right solution.
|
| Toasters and hair dryers (depends on the kind of course) are as
| low tech as it gets. Getting them wet is indeed not a big issue,
| when unplugged. But as a physics teacher he probably has heard
| about galvanization, oxidation and similar chemical things.. I
| hope. Corroded electrical contacts have a higher electrical
| resistance. Higher electrical resistances produce more heat. More
| heat produces higher resistance..
| lucb1e wrote:
| > But as a physics teacher he probably has heard about
| galvanization, oxidation and similar chemical things.. I hope.
|
| As the post says
|
| > I learned two things [...] (2) GFIs only trip off when in
| bodies of water that are grounded. They won't work in an
| aquarium sitting on a lab table, or in a plastic laundry sink
| with plastic drainpipes, or in a plastic shower with plastic
| drainpipes.
|
| I'm neither an electrician nor a physics teacher but I knew
| that these devices looking for ground leakage work only when
| the electricity leaks to ground (I guess that's what GFI refers
| to; I know them as aardlekschakelaar, literally: earth leak
| switch). That's also why I find it a bit odd that this teacher
| describes their functioning as "detects that current is leaking
| out some other route than expected": it's not like electrons
| have routing labels you can match against an itinerary, it
| detects them coming through a second wire, and so it stands to
| reason that you need to close the circuit into that second
| wire...
|
| I applaud careful experimentation as they did with the
| hairdryer and, presumably, the toaster (using it on a protected
| circuit, observing if it works correctly, etc.). But there are
| also quite a few sentences in this post where my eyebrows moved
| femto wrote:
| I was once involved in a similar (unintentional) experiment with
| a multi-billion dollar defence radar. A several metres deep
| underground bunker, containing several 19" racks full of
| electrical/electronic gear, filled to ground level with a
| combination of mineralised surface water and mud during a storm.
|
| What we wanted to do was cut the power, pump the water out of the
| bunker ASAP and immediately clean the whole lot with pure water.
|
| What the (arse-covering) site manager did was nothing, not even
| cut the power, until a "risk-assessment" had been done. For the
| first few days we were able to peer into the bunker's hatch and
| watch der blinkenlights happily operating in the gloom
| underwater. That stopped after a few days. About a week later the
| risk had been assessed and a path of action determined: the power
| was turned off, the water was pumped out and everything was
| washed with pure water. By then electrolysis had dissolved just
| about every conductor in the system.
|
| Electrical systems will happily cope with water in the short
| term, but the longer the exposure the less likely they are to
| survive. Time is part of the risk.
| rcxdude wrote:
| It's quite impressive it kept working for that long, and even
| more amazing someone was capable of saying "no, let's not cut
| the power, there might be a problem if we do"
| krisoft wrote:
| It is because people use heuristics to navigate their lives.
| Instead of doing complicated engineering reasoning all the time
| to ensure their safety they learn simple "rules of thumb". These
| rules are incorrect in as much as they have both false positives
| (something which the rule prohibits, but is safe) and false
| negatives (something which the rule lets you do, but is not
| safe).
|
| I'm a hobby jeweler and I use an ordinary household microwave to
| melt copper and silver to cast my projects.[1] At the same time
| "everybody knows" that you can't put metal in a microwave.
|
| What gives? Is everybody wrong? Of course not. It is just that
| the statement "don't put metal in a microwave" is a simplified
| form of the true statement which would go something like this
| "don't put metal in a microwave, unless you follow these safety
| precautions, and wear these safety gear, and your crucible is
| made of the appropriate materials, and your moulds are bone dry
| and ...". Aint nobody has the time to think about all the caveats
| and dangers when all they want is to warm their meals. So it is
| simpler, easier, and safer to tell people the abbreviated form of
| the rule.
|
| 1: here is a video
| https://youtu.be/Oim2QsDp0rY?si=CZrhg6ux1GfiDWqd
| valtism wrote:
| You can also just have a spoon in the microwave too, right? I
| think It's only from things like crinkles in aluminium foil and
| the prongs of a fork that produce sparks and arcing inside.
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