[HN Gopher] Repair and Remain (2022)
___________________________________________________________________
Repair and Remain (2022)
Author : yarapavan
Score : 396 points
Date : 2024-08-12 16:06 UTC (6 hours ago)
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| dgfitz wrote:
| > I can help you with that--demolition, framing, reworking the
| plumbing, moving some electrical, installing some mould-resistant
| drywall, maybe some nice tile for the floor and some classic
| glazed ceramic three-by-six subway tile for the tub surround.
| Should take a month or two, depending on what all's involved.
|
| A month or two?! To re-do a bathroom? You say this like you're
| proud of it. I wouldn't. Accounting for drywall mudding and
| drying it should take a week, where most of the work happens in 2
| days, on the weekend. Maybe you need 2 more days, the next
| weekend. Hell, take the other end of that weekend too.
|
| 1-2 month quotes is why I don't hire contractors, why I fix my
| own cars, and only use a personal friend for HVAC help.
| AyyEye wrote:
| It took the people we hired to redo our kitchen nearly two
| years. I have no doubt that the bathroom would have taken
| similarly long. We had a similar experience with people hired
| to replace our windows taking two years before the lawyers got
| involved. Both of these were on the medium-high prices because
| we got burned hiring a couple of cheap folks in the past.
| Joke's on us.
|
| Things they _both_ did:
|
| - Not measure things properly. How on earth a "professional"
| can be two-four inches off on several measurements I have no
| idea.
|
| - Not check the order before ordering it (and waiting months
| for it to be made and come in).
|
| - Not check the order before installing it.
|
| - Conveniently losing digital and physical copies of contracts
| and communications. Too bad for them we kept the signed
| originals.
|
| - When I mention that it's clearly not right (prior to install)
| we get told something along the lines of "that's how they come
| from the factory, we fix it after installation". After install
| we get told "of course we can't fix that, you can accept it or
| wait another 6-8 months for new parts."
|
| - A project manager that never actually supervises anything or
| shows up and has no problem lying to your face then saying
| something completely different in email afterwards.
|
| - Contractor blaming manufacturer while manufacturer blames
| contractor. You have to take a day off work every time they
| come to inspect things _yet again_.
|
| That's not even mentioning the constant babysitting that needs
| to be done (I am no contractor but maybe connect the drain to
| the sink before it gets turned on?) And all the little things
| that you end up doing yourself anyway because at this point
| it's just not worth it anymore like fixing all of the drywall
| they broke because I can do it in an afternoon and I am tired
| of talking to them and tired of seeing them and it will take
| you two weeks to come out anyway.
|
| And we are not being picky here. It's stuff that should have
| been immediately obvious. Like our kitchen cabinets not having
| windows (we cut the windows out after install, they said). Or
| being three different colors (we paint them afterwards, they
| said). After install I find that both of those are lies and
| they apparently ordered the wrong cabinets _and_ put in some
| other customer 's cabinets on half my kitchen (one of the
| cabinets had over a dozen shims to make it fit properly). Three
| different materials (fiberboard, plywood, and solid wood). I
| didn't even notice that one until after install.
|
| What about the window that was inches too big, and you didn't
| bother to check before ripping the old one out? Now I need to
| have plywood on my window for 8 months while you order a
| replacement. Good thing I'm not in an HOA or that would have
| got expensive quick. Maybe caulk the windows too? Just a
| suggestion but idk you're the professional you probably know
| better than the manufacturer.
|
| My partner, child, or myself getting cut _every_ time we wipe
| the windows. I don 't care if it's the manufacturers fault come
| send somebody to sand them down and clip off the sharp bits.
| It's going to take 8 months for the new ones to come in. We're
| tired of bleeding every time we clean.
|
| Lastly if you have explosive diahrrea fucking clean the toilet
| afterwards, especially if it splashes all the way up the lid.
| You are disgusting and you do shit work. And the worst part is
| I never even mentioned the diahrrea to them because in the
| grand scheme of things it was absolutely minor.
|
| Washing dishes in the winter outside with a hose fucking sucks.
| And washing dishes in the tiny bathroom sink sucks. Washing
| dishes in a tiny bathroom sink right after someone stunk it up
| _really_ sucks.
|
| At least if you do it yourself, you can take a long time and do
| a shot job, and take solace knowing that if you hired someone
| it would have been just as bad but taken longer and been more
| expensive.
|
| /rant. Sorry. The last few years have been stressful.
|
| If you actually find someone that isn't bad hold on to them
| tight. Find an owner/operator who answers his own phone, does
| his own estimates, and does his own work.
| dgfitz wrote:
| I'm not going to understand why I was downvoted, not that I
| care much.
|
| You made my point for me, we are in complete agreement.
| AyyEye wrote:
| I had to reply with my experiences after seeing those
| downvotes.
| dgfitz wrote:
| Much obliged.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| So sad to hear you had such a bad experience. I believe
| sometimes marriages are like that as well.
|
| I'm such a lucky person (knock on wood...) for not going
| through such serious problems in construction & love...
| (however getting to the point of obtaining 'true' love took a
| lot of time and disappointments).
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Far too many home improvement "professionals" are just
| handymen or people who have worked as laborers for another
| contractor or are self-taught who hang out their own shingle.
|
| Sort of the same as software engineers.
|
| It would be nice if there were a "fizzbuzz" test we could
| give contractors before hiring.
|
| Hiring people who are unionized or who went through a union
| apprenticeship has been fairly reliable in my experience but
| union guys generally don't work on small household projects
| and they don't come cheap.
| AyyEye wrote:
| Well the professionals are licensed bonded and insured. I
| only found out afterwards that the lawyer who literally
| wrote the contractor law in Nevada works primarily for
| contractors so it doesn't really help you very much. At
| least with handymen when you can find a good one they are
| better than the best professionals.
| nextos wrote:
| That sucks. Personally, this is why I want to see prefabs
| take off, even if the price is actually more expensive. When
| you buy a car, it is quite rare to find major defects. In
| houses, defect lists are so common that Brits have a term for
| it, snagging lists. Prefabs should be quite close to cars in
| terms of quality as they are manufactured in a factory under
| controlled conditions. People I have met that bought prefabs
| from high-end manufacturers confirmed this, and had a more or
| less trouble-free experience.
|
| In comparison, I have experienced major issues in _every_
| brand new house I have rented. I would not like to go through
| this experience as an actual owner as it would drive me
| insane. I have only met two contractors that were
| professional and took pride in their work. The rest were a
| bunch of wackos that only created chaos. In comparison, my
| experience leasing brand new cars could not be better. Get
| keys, drive for two years, return back. Zero issues. Given
| that a car is way more complex than a house, the construction
| industry seems terribly backwards.
| bluGill wrote:
| If you are helping me do that work it will take more than 2
| months - with kids and all they have to do I cannot do much
| work in a week. Monday I can work a couple hours, but only if
| my wife makes supper, Tuesday the girls have [mumble] so I have
| to cook, no time for anything else, then... Saturday might be
| free if the kids don't have an activity.
|
| If I quit my job I could get the bathroom done in a couple
| weeks alone, and less if I can get help for the tasks that
| really need two people. It likely will take longer but only
| because of permits and inspections. However I can't afford to
| retire (well I can, but not on the lifestyle I want - cabins in
| Montana are cheap but I want lights and indoor plumbing)
| beaglesss wrote:
| I built my house from nothing, not even utilities, by myself
| working full time and with kids.
|
| Sure kids activities have to go on a back burner, but sorry,
| they have food and shelter and after that their enjoyment has
| to take a backseat to the family building the house which
| benefits us far longer than the memories of the park or
| soccer practice.
|
| I respect choices of others but ultimately I see no reason to
| place childrens non-needs above critical family
| infrastructure.
| digging wrote:
| Please, don't take this as a personal judgment! I don't
| know you, I'm just judging what's written here.
|
| > kids activities have to go on a back burner ... I see no
| reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family
| infrastructure
|
| This comes across as pretty callous toward your children's
| development! Social interactions with family are needs for
| children, too.
|
| It sounds like you chose to go off and build a house
| unnecessarily and ignored the labor of raising your
| children to do it, which a lot of people would find pretty
| irresponsible. So as a rebuttal to someone else saying they
| can't make the time, because they have work and kids, I
| think it functions better as an argument _against_ doing
| what you did. If buying an already-built home wasn 't a
| realistic option for you, that would be very important
| context here.
| beaglesss wrote:
| We didn't have a home and the money I saved for a home
| went from being able to buy a nice house in the city to
| not even being able to buy a trailer in a wasteland after
| the COVID free interest fest. Now all those homes are
| locked up in rates no one will give up for less than a
| kings ransom.
|
| I can assure you DIY a house was not even on my radar of
| life plans.
|
| Ultimately only one option remained, buy land in a place
| without building codes and then build without a license.
| Took me awhile to find the loophole, but I executed it. I
| built a house for only $60k in a state where a burnt out
| trailer is now $150k.
| digging wrote:
| Thank you for clarifying, it sounds like you probably did
| make a good decision.
| meowster wrote:
| What was the loophole?
| beaglesss wrote:
| 1) Negative interest rates exploded prices anything
| eligible for mortgage. Deduction: must not buy property
| eligible for traditional mortgage.
|
| 2) GC and contractors exploded prices to match weak
| competition. Deduction: must not have someone else build
| house.
|
| 3) Zoning laws make small homes illegal. Deduction: must
| find place with weak zoning.
|
| 4) Trades licensing, codes, and inspection make DIY
| impossible while holding regular job. Deduction must find
| place without inspections or required licensing for owner
| builder at any point.
|
| ---------
|
| Criteria:
|
| Must buy raw land ineligible for mortgage, must do it in
| in a place with weak zoning, codes, and inspection and
| still be near jobs.
|
| The loophole was totally avoiding every competitive
| expensive pathway and bypassing it by not competing with
| people fueled by free debt and not being beholden to the
| zoning and planning cartels. Doing that is a difficult
| tightrope to walk.
| nradov wrote:
| That's an impressive accomplishment. My father did much the
| same, but hired professional contractors for some of the
| more complex parts.
|
| Children don't _need_ to participate in extracurricular
| activities such as travel club sports. But the reality is
| that not doing so kind of closes off certain future
| options, including reducing the odds of admission to highly
| selective colleges. Thus a lot of upper-middle class
| families prioritize those activities above having a nicer
| home. It 's impossible to know which choices will produce
| better outcomes.
| ds_opseeker wrote:
| Beaglesses, insofar as there are sides to take here, I like
| yours. I would hope only that you had the option to include
| your children in some of the building activity-- your
| comment suggests you did.
|
| Building the family's house alongside Dad sounds much more
| valuable than anything they would have learned playing on
| the school's soccer team.
| BanazirGalbasi wrote:
| For people new to the DIY skills it requires to do it right, 2
| months seems reasonable. You have to learn the skills, and when
| you're applying them you stop constantly to check tutorials or
| look for advice. You take the entire project one step at a time
| and you do one part before even starting to research the next.
|
| A day of demo leaves you with an empty room with pipes sticking
| out of the walls. Maybe you've removed the drywall too so now
| you have outlet boxes and studs to work with. You take the rest
| of the day to finish the cleanup and triple-check your
| measurements for everything. Half your weekend has now been
| taken to demolish and clean up a core part of your home.
|
| The next day you do your framing, including buying your lumber.
| Again, if you're new to this, you're probably checking a
| tutorial or plans every 10 minutes as you go so you make sure
| you're doing it right. If you have time and you're confident,
| you can get the plumbing set up so that it's ready to drop the
| tub/shower and vanity in place next weekend.
|
| For someone with experience, this is an excruciatingly slow
| pace. For someone who is doing it for the first time and may
| never do it again, this is pretty reasonable. I would
| absolutely be proud of taking two months to do a bathroom if it
| means it's done right the first time. Going by the comments
| about contractors here, that's not a guarantee just because
| someone else can do it faster.
| dgfitz wrote:
| If you want to move the goalposts by introducing a lack of
| skill and materials, sure the argument falls apart.
|
| You are debating a different point entirely.
| hooverd wrote:
| I don't think the actual amount of time working changes if it
| takes one week or two months lol.
| dgfitz wrote:
| It doesn't, so why drag it out for 60+ days when you can do
| it in 3-5
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Whoever shared this article, thanks! So much truth. 'New' feels
| good at the moment of buying, but more often than not,
| "struggling & repairing" feels so much better afterwards. Oh the
| toilet doesn't flush well anymore or it keeps taking water... no
| problem, I know how to fix it since I did it before. Oh the kid'
| s sword is broken, let's fix it together! My fiancee seems
| unsatisfied with how I acted at the table yesterday... honey tell
| me what's wrong, we can talk it through.
| foobarian wrote:
| > the kid' s sword is broken
|
| I have so many questions
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Don't worry, her sister's fine.
| zorpner wrote:
| Long story short, the sword was forged during the First Age
| by the famed Dwarven-smith Telchar of Nogrod -- later wielded
| by Elendil and shattered in the Battle of Dagorlad. Once this
| kid's dad gets around to reforging it, it will be known as
| Anduril.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| The Return of the Kid
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I guess you don't have kids?
|
| At first you buy those 2 dollar light plastic swords, which
| last a few hours.
|
| Then you buy a tougher, floppy, one that last a week. Then
| you make a wooden one for them, they knock something down
| with it. Time to repair the tougher one.
| Animats wrote:
| The Chinese version of a kid's sword: [1]
|
| Context: this is a show about a bodyguard service. After
| several episodes of training from hell, the new bodyguards
| are now going out on jobs.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/zOf5CHSUUfg?t=1120
| bregma wrote:
| This is when the doctor leaves the ER examining room for a
| minute and you glance at the notes. "No abuse suspected at
| this time" is all you have time to make out before his swift
| return with the prescription for the antibiotics and
| instructions to keep the kid calm and quiet for the next 24
| hours until the anaesthesia is completely out of their
| system.
| karaterobot wrote:
| The other day, I was thinking about how important a good handyman
| is for my mental health. I used to fix things myself, but
| spending all my free time doing home repair was withdrawing from
| the limited bank account of my personal sanity. Having the house
| broken open for months while I picked away at it after work and
| on weekends was bad for morale, too. And doing the work myself
| was sometimes dispiriting rather than empowering--If someone else
| makes a mistake, even if I'm paying them, I can for whatever
| reason tolerate that with less frustration than when I screw up
| myself. Accepting that I am lucky enough to have a surplus of
| money that I can exchange for time and serenity was a big step
| for me. My conclusion was that cultivating a relationship with a
| good handyman is of as much value for me as any other long term
| service relationship: doctor, therapist, waitress, barista, etc.
| So, even though I'm not married and not having relationship angst
| _per se_ , this article makes sense to me through that
| reinterpretation.
| abakker wrote:
| As someone who does more than the average person's share of
| DIY, I agree for another reason: when I do want to do a
| project, I want to do the kind of project that pleases me. I'm
| experienced enough to know I hate drywall work, and I don't
| really want to do plumbing on drains or concrete, so, I always
| have pros do that. But, I'm pretty happy to hack through some
| trim carpentry and electrical any day.
| Domenic_S wrote:
| I feel seen. I can't stand drywall work - although I'll do a
| patch'n'texture that's too small to hire out if i absolutely
| have to. The folks who do drywall for a living are magicians
| that can knock out the job 5x faster than me, and 20x better.
| I'll pay all day.
|
| Electrical on the other hand I find to be a blast. It's more
| a hobby than a chore, although there are _some_ things I won
| 't touch, like running conduit for lv or installing a sizable
| solar system. The pros are just so good at it.
|
| Cars too - I'll change every fluid, do brake jobs, install
| short shift kits, dashcams, even got a windows VM running so
| I could use old software to read OBD-I codes on my old car.
| But timing or a top-end rebuild.. I leave that to the pros.
|
| I think there's something to be said for doing like 80% of
| the things yourself even when you can afford more. It's so
| gratifying to do even a simple job and when it's done, it's
| done. It's so unlike most of our day-to-day that's full of
| multi-month efforts that depend on other people.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| You can do timing, it's definitely shade mechanic level,
| not hard at all. Just need a timing light and tachometer.
| bluGill wrote:
| Sometimes I feel the same way. Other times I get frustrated
| because I'm paying a lot of money for things I know I can do
| myself for much less - and because I'm spending that money
| there I don't even have it to buy the toys I want to use up
| that time paying someone else gave me.
|
| There is a balance here and it is different for different
| people.
| outworlder wrote:
| I think that it all depends on where the motivation comes from.
| If it's just to save money, that's nice, but the need to do it
| disappears when you have enough to spare.
|
| For me, I tend to want to fix things more the more my job is
| boring and I'm not able to work on new things or improve
| existing ones. I'll then take some satisfaction on actually
| being able to affect change, even if it is in my own
| environment. It can be a bit therapeutic.
|
| I will, however, delegate some work when I don't have the tools
| or the means to do it efficiently. I had an alternator failure.
| I could replace it myself, I know how. But the car in question
| has it in a pretty difficult to access location. It is doable
| but would probably take me the whole day (if not more) with
| just a jack and stands. So I sent it to the mechanic.
|
| And yes, if you are falling behind on your repairs or if you
| have to spend most of your free time to do it, it's not worth
| it, you need more hands. Also, if you actually _don 't_ have
| free time and you would use that time to earn more money.
| segmondy wrote:
| It does come down to mindset. I do my yard work, 1 acre,
| mowing, edging, trimming, leaf blowing, raking, etc. My entire
| mindset when I do it is, "It's exercise". I do car repairs and
| own 2 classic cars. My mindset is "It's yoga!" There's the fun
| of figuring out how to solve problems I haven't, I work with
| computers all day and I get to work with my hand. My family
| gets to see me do things and it's very important for them to
| know they can do things and solve problems by themselves, I
| sometimes involve them so it's not me alone but a family thing.
| The mindset is very important. allow yourself to make mistakes,
| have fun with it. It's never been this easy! First go to
| youtube, watch a few videos, read a book or blog and get to
| work. What I find that makes it frustrating for a lot of people
| is not having the proper tools, extra hands if needed and
| knowledge.
| admax88qqq wrote:
| If it's your gardens or your toy car it's a different
| experience than if it's your family bathroom or family car.
| There is time pressure and angst at not having your daily use
| things in working order
| GuB-42 wrote:
| If it is your family bathroom or car, if you have worked on
| it before, chances are that you can deal with a problem on
| the spot thanks to the skills you learned and the tools you
| got for the occasion. No need to wait for the handyman. And
| if it is a problem you can't solve, you may also have
| better understanding, which makes explaining the situation
| to a professional easier.
| kelnos wrote:
| The entire premise here is that's not the case. The
| repair/remodel drags out because you're doing it in your
| spare time, and mistakes and setbacks are a drag on your
| motivation. Meanwhile you and your family aren't able to
| use your main bathroom (or whatever), and that stresses
| you out, makes you feel guilty that progress isn't
| happening faster.
|
| I get this, and will call a handyman for some jobs, but I
| try to do repairs and "upgrades" myself when the work
| seems manageable to me.
| ghaff wrote:
| I got a lawn guy to do about the 1/2 acre that I keep mowed.
| At the time, I was traveling a lot and there are certain
| times of the year when you just can't let things go. This
| year I hired his crew for a couple because the state of my
| property had just gotten overwhelming so they did a lot of
| cutting, weedwhacking, etc. It's still very far from pristine
| suburban--I basically live in the country--but it got me to
| the point where I could spend a reasonable amount of time to
| get things under control. (I'm also basically spending the
| summer to get a bunch of interior stuff in my house done as
| well.)
| sokoloff wrote:
| > My family gets to see me do things and it's very important
| for them to know they can do things and solve problems by
| themselves
|
| Completely agree! The number of people I know who I think
| would struggle to know whether to hold the plastic or metal
| end of a screwdriver is depressing to me. I want my kids to
| grow up with a basic knowledge of mechanics, mechanisms,
| repairs/maintenance, and experience the world as things that
| can mostly be understood (and created) rather than things
| that are conceived and made by others and merely consumed by
| "normal people".
|
| It also has saved a fair amount of money over the years, but
| the mindset is more important to show my family than the
| dollars.
| criddell wrote:
| When I need to work on something around my house that's new
| to me, I'll spend a little time watching videos of other
| people doing the thing. That gives me enough of an idea of
| how involved the work is.
|
| If it's not going to be a quick or easy fix, I then do the
| calculation of whether or not I want to trade time that I
| would normally spend on myself or my family for the
| project. These days there aren't many things that meet that
| bar. I guess I would frame it as "spend your time wisely
| because you are rapidly running out of it".
|
| My dad died a few years ago and I've never once wished he
| had spent more time working on stuff around the house. We
| would occasionally get in the car and drive somewhere
| inconsequential talking the entire time. That's what I wish
| I had more of. All the other stuff I can get from YouTube.
| lupire wrote:
| I don't see why driving in a car is a better place to
| talk than fixing the sink.
| criddell wrote:
| I lived in a pretty small, rural area and my dad loved to
| drive. Everything he saw could trigger some kind of
| story. Plus there were random stops for ice cream which
| was awesome.
|
| With my kids (who are in college now), there's no way
| they are going to sit around while I try to fix the sink.
| If I want to spend time with them, I have to give some
| consideration to their preferences.
| switchbak wrote:
| Some of my fondest memories are of my Dad and I working
| on things together. One of the things I most valued about
| him was his willingness to dive in and learn how things
| worked, and sometimes even fix them. To each their own, I
| suppose.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| > I do my yard work, 1 acre, mowing, edging, trimming, leaf
| blowing, raking, etc
|
| I truthfully can't imagine caring about how my yard looks
| that much. It will get mowed when it gets too long but
| otherwise I let whatever wants to grow, grow, and spend maybe
| an hour tops on it every couple of weeks. My family would
| much rather do things with me than see me toil away on a
| green hellscape.
| willturman wrote:
| Grass is literally a hellscape for pollinators and the only
| thing that spends time on most lawns is a mower. I don't
| understand it either.
|
| "My family gets to see me swear at my old cars that get
| 10mpg that I insist on owning and somehow justify by
| imagining they're learning anything beyond another
| datapoint as to why we shouldn't all own and maintain
| lifeless landscapes and pollution machines that only serve
| to stroke our fragile egos"
| unclad5968 wrote:
| I'm sure you have hobbies other people could insult you
| for too and if you don't you likely don't have any
| hobbies at all.
| lupire wrote:
| They can tend your garden with you.
| kelnos wrote:
| Oh man, agreed. When I a teenager, my family moved to a
| house that had 3 acres of grass. At our previous house (1/2
| acre), we just had a standard push mower, and that was
| fine. Now we had to buy a small tractor. I remember being
| tasked to mow those 3 acres when my dad deemed me old
| enough, but he would always scold me if I did it too
| quickly, because he thought it wasn't safe to run it at its
| top speed on our hilly yard, plus he believed the tractor
| cut poorly if you went to fast.
|
| Overall it was just a huge waste of time and money for
| everyone involved. At least the tractor had a plow
| attachment that was useful for clearing the driveway of
| snow in the winter, so it wasn't a single-task purchase.
| Then again, if we had a smaller plot of land, the driveway
| would have been short enough to handle with shovels, so...
|
| As an adult, now we have a house out in a mountainous area
| where there's snow on the ground for as long as 5 or 6
| months out of the year. Grass doesn't really survive there,
| so most of the land is just dirt or whatever strange
| weeds/plants will grow on it on their own. Much easier to
| deal with.
| systemtest wrote:
| I love to put a good sound system in my car or tweak the
| suspension, but when it comes to something boring, repetitive
| and messy like an oil change I outsource to my local garage.
| I'll take my laptop with me to work in the lobby, my hourly
| rate is higher than theirs so I even make a little profit.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| I dunno, it takes me about 15 minutes of actual work to
| change my oil, vs driving to and from the shop and waiting.
| It's like a 10x time difference, and I'm still probably
| doing it with more care than Jiffy Lube.
| systemtest wrote:
| If I count the time it takes me to properly dispose of
| the oil it takes me the same amount of time.
|
| And I luckily have a mechanic that I fully trust with my
| car. They are specialised in my make and model. Even have
| the correct socket for the oil plug, which I do not have.
| kelnos wrote:
| Impressive that in addition to doing the work, you also
| can take the oil somewhere it can be disposed of safely
| and properly within that 15-minute time frame.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| I have about 10 5-quart jugs stashed away in my garage,
| I'll eventually bring them to the auto parts store when I
| already need to go there for something. It'd be silly to
| make a dedicated trip each time.
| segmondy wrote:
| It takes me about 30mins - 45 minutes to do my oil change,
| it takes me 20 minutes to go the dealership, another 20 to
| go home and about an hour wait. So I often save about an
| hour of my time doing it. There's nothing mess about it, I
| have an overall I put on when working on cars, about $40
| from amazon. I put on gloves, and pre lay paper wipes where
| the oil might drip. Once I'm done, I take the gloves off,
| clean up, toss in trash, done. The only extra is that I
| just have to collect the oil and once a year go dispose it
| when the city collects hazardous materials which costs me
| about an hour of work. About 10 oil changes a year and I'm
| saving 10 hrs. When I do physical work is the time that I
| take to step out of the computer and think about code.
| hughesjj wrote:
| > About 10 oil changes a year
|
| 0_o
|
| Why are you doing 10 oil changes a year lol? Most people
| do ~2
|
| IDK, I'm a fan of 'do it yourself at least once to
| understand what's involved', but I'm totally okay
| outsourcing it based on cost+time+risk otherwise.
| segmondy wrote:
| 2 main cars, 4x every 3 months we put 3-5k miles and 2
| classic cars. 1x each
| systemtest wrote:
| Being European I do my oil change once a year and since
| the oil disposal location is on the same street as my
| local garage, I need to drive there anyway so no time
| lost there. And as I'm working and making money in the
| lobby while waiting for my car to be ready, I count that
| as a zero loss.
|
| You might not find it messy, but I do. I don't like doing
| it. And it costs me the same amount of time and money if
| I have my mechanic do it, so that is why I outsource it.
| kelnos wrote:
| I've done my own oil changes a few times in the past, but
| I don't bother anymore, and just have a mechanic deal
| with it. They're faster at it than I am, and I don't have
| to drive out somewhere special to dispose of the old oil.
| It ends up being cheaper to have someone else do it, too.
| I also don't drive all that much, so I don't have to
| worry about timeliness here; I can just have them do the
| oil change when I bring the car in for some other
| servicing.
|
| I get that you want to do it yourself, and that you've
| made different value judgments over the various aspects
| of doing it yourself vs. having someone else do it. But
| understand that others of us have _also_ made different
| value judgments, and our situations aren 't always the
| same.
| cm2012 wrote:
| More inborn personality traits than mindset, according to the
| reading I've done.
| hemloc_io wrote:
| Hah easy to have this mindset on your fun projects than your
| commuter.
|
| Rejetting carbs on your motorcycle that you use for
| commuting, goes from a fun weekend project to 1AM Monday
| morning nightmare really quick. :)
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| Oh man, I got to "rejetting carbs" and had the momentary
| urge to toss a chair out a window and then dive out after
| it. Kudos if you'll do your own carb work, that's where I
| draw the line.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I keep telling myself that carbs are an obsolete
| technology and there's no reason to learn them.
|
| I almost believe myself.
| lanstin wrote:
| If there was a physical "undo" button, I could get behind
| this philosophy; however I notice neither a compiler to point
| out small mistakes nor an undo to help out with big mistakes.
| Having transformed some small plumbing things from easy to
| fix to really expensive to fix, I'm happy to know I live in a
| society with some degree of specialization. The plumber
| mightn't know they need to have good error handling policies,
| but they use my company's products, and we all go home happy.
| (This is also why I'm not in ops, except the odd heroic fire-
| fighting exercise; when I'm bored I like to change things to
| increase my knowledge of how it all works; I need worried and
| steady co-workers to keep things running).
| roughly wrote:
| > If there was a physical "undo" button, I could get behind
| this philosophy
|
| I had two reactions to this -
|
| The first is that's part of why I like working on low-
| stakes physical projects - especially when I'm working in
| my garden, I'm almost aggressively improvisational, just
| trying to use whatever's on hand to do the job and fixing
| things as I go. Because the garden is mine and just an
| absolute hobby, I get to play around, and the feeling of
| satisfaction I get from cobbling something together to
| solve a problem easily matches delivering a carefully-done
| plan.
|
| The second is that undo button makes us sloppy. I noticed
| this the first time I went into management - the hardest
| part of the job was I had no idea if I'd done something
| right and no way to do it again if I didn't. It's made me
| sloppy a few other places as well, where I've found myself
| staring at something and thinking "well shit, there's no
| undo here, is there?" I think spending some time with some
| things that have stakes and can't be undone is healthy, and
| I think programming somehow makes us both sloppier and more
| risk-averse by its almost unbounded undo-ability.
| lanstin wrote:
| Parenting was where I learned how to live with the lack
| of an undo. One gets used to it, but I find cyberspace
| much easier: I can try 1000 things in a few days and come
| out with a solution that seemed maybe impossible up
| front. Although one does get many chances to hone the
| interactions with kids, mistakes are not zero cost :) and
| once the parent and kid really master something, the kid
| grows a bit and the old solution reaches the end of its
| validity.
|
| I would emphasize both that the undo-ability is very
| freeing and that the compiler/tests guardrails let one
| focus on the novel part rather than the routine part.
| thinkski wrote:
| Another benefit -- no one can tax your own labor for
| yourself. 100% of your effort goes towards your own gain.
| metabagel wrote:
| I don't think labor is taxed. Income is though.
|
| Edit: Meaning that the Jiffy Lube guy has to pay income tax
| on what he earns at his job, but you don't have to pay tax
| on the labor expense to you.
| mlhpdx wrote:
| Yep, folks will come at this kind of things their own ways,
| and that's all good.
|
| I likewise care for an acre, and fix as much as I reasonably
| can -- from the small to the large. I once avoided a
| "dominos" problem when a built-in fridge died, which they no
| longer made parts for, and was a different size than today's
| so the cabinetry would need redone, which would make the rest
| of the kitchen look worn, which would make the wood floors
| look worn (all in all, I was facing lots of zeros).
|
| Then I thought for a while and decided to test all the
| capacitors on the PCB (in place, which required buying a
| tester). About $150.08 and two days later the fridge was
| working (the eight cents was for the bad cap).
|
| That said, I know my limits and call in the "pros" for jobs I
| don't relish or wouldn't trust my own work (e.g. car brakes).
|
| Knowing how to repair things doesn't mean one always has to.
| pimlottc wrote:
| For me it's about giving myself the permission to "give up" and
| let someone else handle it. Like you, I realized that being
| surrounded by broken things and incomplete projects was causing
| me a lot of constant low-level stress. As a person who prides
| themselves on being self-reliant, it's hard to pay for
| something that I know I could do it myself, even when the cost
| is insignificant. It helps to remind myself there are other
| things to optimize for, like saving time and preserving mental
| sanity.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| I always tell people, the most valuable thing you can buy with
| money is time. I can clean my house, but I am fortunate enough
| now that I can pay someone else to do it. I don't sit around
| and do nothing in that time, I enjoy my life or do other tasks.
| I never feel bad exchanging money for time.
| beaglesss wrote:
| The issue I often find is that by the time I pay taxes on my
| own salary, their salary, their insurance and overhead, I
| lose more time hiring it out unless my wages are at least
| 3-4x theirs.
|
| The real hack to DIY is you eliminate taxes and insurance,
| other than sales tax. It's one of the few ways to actually
| _keep_ almost all the value you generate.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Indeed. For me to end up with the same amount of money
| after paying a company $100 rather than doing something
| myself, I have to go out and make an extra $167. That
| company probably then pays the actual worker something
| between $25 and $50, so I have to have a quite high
| multiple (plus the opportunity to just go work a small
| amount extra for pay) to make the trade make economic
| sense.
| ds_opseeker wrote:
| All of which is strong argument in favor of replacing all
| income tax with land tax.
|
| The idea starts to make a lot of sense once you look at
| its framing. This includes the argument you make above
| (why can't you hire help out of pre-tax income, like any
| other business can?) and more on the legitimacy of
| taxation.
|
| https://lawliberty.org/book-review/georgism-revisited/
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| >why can't you hire help out of pre-tax income, like any
| other business can
|
| Leaving aside the obvious fact that your personal
| activities are not a business[0], you can indeed hire
| help out of pre-tax income -- in the U.S. no one pays
| income tax on their gross income, only their taxable
| income. By the time common tax credits are factored in, a
| married couple with children may easily have $30-40K of
| gross income each year not subject to income tax.
|
| Many, if not most, homeowners do not need to go out and
| work extra hours to pay someone to do work to repair
| their property, any more than they need to work extra
| hours to pay for food and clothing, so looking only at
| the marginal tax rate is misleading (as in the example
| above of earning an extra $167 to have $100 after tax).
|
| Further, work you pay for that improves the property (as
| opposed to repairs) is added to the tax basis of the
| property, reducing future taxable income when the
| property is sold. Along with the potential to exclude up
| to $250K/$500K (single/married) of gain[1] from selling
| the property is a huge source of pre-tax income.
|
| [0]and even businesses can only deduct expenses for
| people they hire for services that are related to
| generating a profit.
|
| [1]Section 121 exclusion
| beaglesss wrote:
| Fica is ~15% on gross and get paid both ways, when you
| earn and then double dipped as tax on labor you hire.
|
| So that's about 30% gone right there for engaging in
| labor trade before you even consider income tax
| sokoloff wrote:
| The decision to work extra in order to pay to outsource a
| task vs doing it yourself (as was framed above) is
| _exactly_ the type of economic decision where the full
| marginal tax rate applies.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| > For me to end up with the same amount of money after
| paying a company $100 rather than doing something myself,
| I have to go out and make an extra $167. That company
| probably then pays the actual worker something between
| $25 and $50
|
| For some types of services, once you've found a person
| who does good work, you can privately ask them if they'd
| like to cut out the middleman: they get a pay raise and
| you pay less. This is particularly relevant for online
| services that find a professional for you.
| randomdata wrote:
| Is this the basis of the so-called "human-centred
| economy" that seems to be gaining attention?
|
| When I first heard of it, it seemed like it literally
| described the very same economic model we're accustomed
| to. But now that you mention this, there does seem to be
| an underscore of "just 2 guyz who are having a good
| time", without proper accounting of the exchange of
| value, thereby making it difficult to prove that a
| taxable event occurred.
| switchbak wrote:
| I hear this a lot, but it discounts a few things:
|
| - the enjoyment of creating or building something decent (if
| you enjoy it)
|
| - the enjoyment of learning for its own sake
|
| - the knowledge that the next time you do this task, you'll
| be more efficient at it
|
| - the knowledge of how the process works, so you know it was
| done right, and can fix it if it breaks
|
| There's a variety of others. I agree that if it's a task you
| don't enjoy or don't rely on, then outsourcing it often a
| great idea.
|
| Some things greatly reward a DIY attitude. Like knowing how
| to wrench on your bike when you're on a trip far in the
| wilderness and something goes wrong. You can even help out
| others!
| kelnos wrote:
| Completely agree, but you're ignoring that not everyone
| gets the same enjoyment out of everything.
|
| For example, I enjoy doing electrical work, but hate
| plumbing. I'll do the former, but hire someone to do the
| latter.
|
| Last year we bought a house that had a bunch of windows
| with missing screens. I ended up making new frames for all
| but one of those windows. The last one I didn't get to with
| the time constraints I had, and I've been procrastinating
| for the past year because it's a repetitive, fiddly job
| that doesn't really give me any joy. I'm sure I'll get
| around to the final screen eventually, but not every DIY
| project gives enjoyment for everyone.
| michaelrpeskin wrote:
| Agree - I have a great handyman who also lets me "help". I can
| do the grunt work (carrying heavy stuff from the truck, demoing
| stuff, etc) saving him time, and he can do the stuff he's
| experienced at (he can eyeball a measurement and do a perfect
| cut much faster and better than I ever could) saving me time.
| Plus I get to learn how to do stuff. I get to be involved so I
| feel ownership, I get much better work done than if I did it
| myself, and I learn so that I can start to take on more
| projects myself.
| konschubert wrote:
| I think this is awesome and I think I need to find a handyman
| like that.
|
| PS: I am sure this isn't the case, but I am having this funny
| image in my head of a handyman giving you "work" so you don't
| mess with his stuff, like a parent gives their kids some mock
| work when they are too small to actually help.
|
| PPS: Don't do this with your kids for too long - they can
| figure out at a pretty young age if they are just playing or
| actually helping.
| michaelrpeskin wrote:
| Ha! When we were putting in the flooring in the kitchen, I
| kept interrupting him "optimizing" the layout and he
| snapped at me like one of his workers. He immediately
| apologized since I was paying him, but I told him that he
| was supposed to yell at me because he is the boss when it
| comes to building stuff. He knows what he's doing and I'm
| just trying to learn. We have a great relationship and I
| know when to back off and let the expert just do the right
| thing.
| esafak wrote:
| I don't bother learning these things because I'm never going to
| get enough practice to get good at it, and my time is already
| accounted for. There is nothing in my schedule I would
| eliminate to make space for learning such things. Let everyone
| do what they're good at.
| bluGill wrote:
| I got good at them growing up because I had a family. When
| someone was going a project they called the family and a
| dozen people showed up. We were never good, but we all knew
| enough to get the job done and teach each other a little more
| - after a few years we had a reasonable grasp of nearly
| everything because we had done it.
|
| I miss living near them. I no longer have a network I can
| call for help on projects and so the things I can get done
| are very limited.
| esafak wrote:
| You can also rely on them to share tools. When you're on
| your own, does it make sense to buy the numerous tools that
| you only use once in a blue moon? Now I have to decide if I
| want to buy or rent them. Well if I'm going to go that
| trouble I can just pay someone to do it too.
| bluGill wrote:
| You can rent some tools. If nothing else I often justify
| a good tool because if I hired someone the pro would have
| the good tools. Typically the first time I do a job
| myself I lose money on tools - but the next time I have
| that tool and so I save a lot. Of course over the years I
| have a good idea what tools I'm likely to use.
| eppp wrote:
| What if you are good at learning new things?
| esafak wrote:
| If it gives you joy do it. I find no intrinsic joy in
| plumbing, electrical work, and so on; it's a chore to me.
| The payoff in seeing the job done often pales beside the
| trouble I have to go to complete it. With more skill, the
| balance tips in favor of doing it yourself. I'm at that
| point at other things. I can prepare a good meal faster
| than you can order it.
| Animats wrote:
| > Having the house broken open for months
|
| There's a lot to be said for not having too much work in
| progress. Sometimes it's better to bring in a whole crew and
| get the job done.
| bluGill wrote:
| Or alternatively doing less at a time. Can you replace the
| vanity without doing the floor, then when that is done do the
| shower, then the toilet/floor. (in most bathrooms the toilet
| is the only think that needs to sit on the floor, the rest
| you can shim and then hide the seam in some trim). I try to
| break all my projects down into things I can do in a day -
| often not possible, but when it is I'm more likely to get
| them done.
| Animats wrote:
| Then you paint the place several times. Or it looks partly
| done for a long time.
| bluGill wrote:
| Paint is quick and easy. Not that I disagree with your
| point, but it isn't a big deal.
| hippich wrote:
| I absolutely agree, but I am having hard time finding such a
| person... The one who show up and who will do things right...
| The thought of trying to find a person like that, are multiple
| failures, just makes it easier to do it myself, even if I will
| hate spending time on it.
| kelnos wrote:
| I recommend asking around in your social circle of other
| homeowners. If you know someone who deals with houses a lot,
| like a realtor, ask them for recommendations. I got my
| handyman rec from my realtor, and he's fantastic.
| psadauskas wrote:
| I disagree, and in particular your point about "frustration", I
| find the opposite to be true for me.
|
| If I hire someone to do something, and they do a bad job, I
| have to beg them to come out and fix it, if they even will at
| all. And they're the only one with the knowledge and experience
| and tools to do the repair, so I feel frustrated that I'm
| unable to resolve it, its going to be like that forever.
|
| If I do something myself, now I've learned how to do it, and
| buying any necessary tools and equipment to do it was probably
| cheaper than hiring someone to do it. And if I do a bad job, I
| console myself that I _could_ fix it if I cared enough, even if
| I never get around to it. At some point it 'll annoy me enough
| that I will fix it, or it won't and I won't care. Personally, I
| find this to be much better for my mental health.
| lupire wrote:
| Even better, never fix anything, live in squalor, and be
| happy that you could have a better life if you worked harder.
| croo wrote:
| I agree with the person you are responding to and your
| snarky remark bothers me to no end. No one will care more
| about your house and problems than you do so they will
| often do a more sloppy job and the only thing that saves
| their face is their experience of doing their job more
| often than you do.
|
| There's always more things that needs to be done than time
| you have.
|
| In practice you always need to prioritize between
|
| 1. what will you spend your time to learn and do it good
|
| 2.what will you spend your money to make others do it
| worse(coin flip, it may be good)
|
| 3. or not do it at all.
|
| The choice is not trivial.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _buying any necessary tools and equipment to do it was
| probably cheaper than hiring someone to do it_
|
| This has really driven my decisions a lot. I've found that
| pretty much any set of tools I could need for common home
| repair costs less than 2 hours of labor that someone would
| charge me.
|
| Sure, my time acquiring these tools and using them isn't
| worthless, but I personally enjoy doing it and find that to
| have value in and of itself. (Certainly that's not true of
| everyone.)
|
| There are some cases where I just don't want to deal with it,
| though. For example, I needed a new railing put on my deck a
| few months ago. I know I'm not great at woodworking, and
| honing those skills doesn't really interest me all that much;
| someone else would do a much nicer job of it than I would. I
| didn't want to have to buy some more tools that I don't
| really have good storage space for. My compromise was to hire
| a handyman I trust to build the railing, but I decided I
| would stain it myself.
| analog31 wrote:
| For me, it also costs less than the 2 hours I have to spend
| contacting them, letting them into my house, deciding what
| I actually want (instead of just winging it), etc.
|
| The tools keep costing less and less, as they're used over
| and over for projects. I haven't bought a new tool in a
| long time. Perhaps the exception is the specialized little
| tools needed to work on my bicycles. But even there, I can
| either fix it myself during my off time, or fit a time into
| my schedule to take my bike somewhere and then get it back.
|
| There's work that I don't do. We all choose our battles.
| codazoda wrote:
| > buying any necessary tools and equipment to do it was
| probably cheaper than hiring someone to do it
|
| I do this, but I sometimes think it was a mistake in the end.
| There are often tools and materials I didn't consider that I
| needed to pay for. I recently built a 24' fence. I think I
| saved a tiny amount of money but I can see every little flaw.
| It also took me several months and probably would have been a
| day or two for a pro.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I don't think you're disagreeing with me so much as being a
| different person with different tastes.
| efsavage wrote:
| A good handyman is an incredible asset. I've had periods where
| I had one available, but they are very hard to find, and like
| most professions, hard to keep as someone else will often
| outbid you (or offer full time employement in these cases). I
| could keep one busy for weeks right now, if not longer...
|
| I too lean towards DIY but have had to learn to make the hard
| decision on projects. "Will I realistically get this done in
| O(days|weeks)?" "Do we actually have any weekends free in the
| next ~month?" This usually leaves enough low-pressure jobs for
| me to do on my own, while maintaining domestic harmony by
| paying someone to do the rest.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| Handyman here. I think maybe you just explained a thing that's
| confused and confounded me for decades now. That innate
| difference between myself and my clients that I never really
| grasped: I can live with screwing something up myself because I
| can always go back and get it right the 2nd time. I absolutely
| cannot abide paying someone else good money to produce anything
| other than stellar results, and I loathe paying anyone to do
| anything I know I can do myself.
| subsubzero wrote:
| Its so funny I feel the exact opposite. I love doing work
| around the house as it saves money and also brings me immense
| satisfaction. I work in software so all of my toil is on
| ethereal products, if the company goes under all of my work is
| lost for eternity(well unless the internet archive keeps it
| alive). But with upkeep on a house I am making my physical
| environment better and the effects will survive a long time. I
| replaced all 100 or so electrical outlets in my house and when
| I was doing this I was thinking of who initially installed
| these and in the future, perhaps in 30-40 years(or longer!) who
| will update my work.
|
| As for yardwork I could easily hire a gardner but I enjoy being
| outside and physical activity and sunlight(vitamin D) are great
| for you. Plus you save money and have the satisfaction that you
| made your physical world a better more attractive space.
|
| That being said a house that needs alot of upkeep as everything
| is extremely out of date would be(for me) very stressful and
| time consuming, so everything is relative.
| goldpizza44 wrote:
| I am super fortunate that my spouse likes to do the home
| projects as well. She is artistic, and I am mechanical. We
| solve problems together....when I don't know how to do
| something electrical or plumbing, and she has no idea at all, I
| can explain to her what the problem is, and either she gets it
| enough to point me in the right direction or in the process of
| explaining the problem I get the solution.
|
| When she is agonizing over some color scheme (which in most
| cases doesn't interest me much) she will explain what she wants
| to achieve, and I can ask "stupid" questions that lead her to
| the answer...or in the odd case I make a suggestion and the
| lightbulb pops on.
|
| It seems to me the mental health professionals do the same
| thing.
|
| Together we have tackled installing over a 1000 sqft of
| hardwood flooring, removing popcorn ceilings (yuk), re-
| engineering built in cabinetry to accommodate an 82" TV,
| gutting and rebuilding 3 bathrooms, re-upholstering a
| livingroom suite that has no right angles (all curves), running
| a 90ft PEX pipe through a ceiling crawl space after receive a
| quote from a plumber for $8000 (took a day of our time).
|
| The problem I have with "professionals" is that they all tell
| me a different story of what I need, and the "other guy" is
| always dead wrong.
|
| I need a new roof and am getting quotes from multiple
| vendors....Just today I had calls with a couple of the vendors
| and they told me opposite stories of what "I need". One told me
| I need to replace all the wall flashings (which is very
| difficult and expensive given the siding must come off), and
| the other said don't touch it if its not leaking. Who to
| believe?
|
| At the end of each project we are amazed at our accomplishment
| (note youtube helps). It certainly took 5x longer than a
| professional might take, but the end result was unique, we
| could change direction mid project, and in the end I know it is
| not crap work from some guy who left a leak in the wall. I
| believe the elation we achieved (and compliments from the
| neighbors), far exceeds the sweat equity that we put into the
| projects.
| velcrovan wrote:
| I am a lot like this guy. I would say "repair and remain" is my
| preferred ethos as well. But the house/marriage comparison is an
| oversimplification that elides a lot of _very common_ situations
| where leaving a marriage is justified.
|
| If anything about your house is broken, you can (in principle)
| just fix it. You don't need the house to agree or cooperate. Even
| if the house is burned out or full of black mold, remediation is
| always an option, subject only to the resources you can bring to
| bear.
|
| I dunno. It's tiresome to put qualifiers and disclaimers on
| everything. MAYBE in an article by a white Anglican Canadian
| small-business owner (such as myself except for the Anglican
| part), it just goes without saying that if your partner is a
| threat to you or your children's safety, or if there is a huge
| power imbalance at play, or if your partner simply refuses to
| join you in the work of repair, leaving is often justified.
|
| But then again, as someone who grew up sheltered in a similar
| community and naively assuming that divorce was stupid and
| selfish 100% of the time, I tend to think those qualifiers would
| do more good than harm.
| floren wrote:
| It felt pretty clear in the article that he was talking about
| people who were frustrated, tired, perhaps depressed, not in
| duress or under threat of harm. Hedging every exception makes
| the article weaker; I think you can write an article about how
| going for a walk every day is healthy without having to add a
| paragraph about how obviously this won't work for paraplegics.
| asangha wrote:
| This is great point that demonstrates how to read ethically.
| slothtrop wrote:
| It's pretty clear he'd default to that advice for just about
| everyone who wasn't in physical danger or being abused in
| some way.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Indeed, it's an important principle that you cannot change
| another person's mind or make them act a certain way. All you
| can do is influence and hope for the best.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| "It takes two to tango" has become a haunting refrain in my
| family relationships lately. I tell myself I'll be ready when
| they are, but I'm not sure if they ever will be.
| flatline wrote:
| I'm a huge proponent of divorce. I grew up in a dysfunctional
| household where my parents stayed together. Their relationship
| was not healthy, nor were the individuals in it. My mother was
| physically and emotionally abusive. My father was distant and,
| when present, was focused on placating her. When my own
| marriage of 16 years ran into problems that were seemingly
| intractable, I finally realized I did not want similar for
| myself, my then-wife, or my kids. I spent several years trying
| to mend things, but I was the only participant. I have no
| regrets over leaving, it was best for everyone.
|
| As a culture, we are moving away from upholding institutions
| for their own sake at the cost of individuals who may be harmed
| by them. I see marriage as no exception.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Maybe your ex-wife was the one who needed to read this
| article.
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| It took me a long time to be able to be thankful that my
| partners didn't perpetually try to fix the structurally
| unsound relationships in either of my marriages. I can put
| up with about anything, in a sense. I am grateful they
| could not.
|
| I spent about 20 years in those two relationships, and it
| wasn't until I got out that I realized how broken all that
| was.
| llm_nerd wrote:
| >I'm a huge proponent of divorce.
|
| This is such a weird thing to say. It's like saying one is a
| huge proponent of homicide. But then it turns out that they
| mean homicide when it's to protect a small child from a
| murderous predator. By itself the statement is just a bizarre
| statement of values.
|
| Some marriages are bad, and _should never have happened_ (I
| 'm a proponent of people not going into clearly bad
| marriages, though many do). More often than not those
| marriages had two selfish people who will never find
| happiness. But divorce is no magical solution, and enormous
| numbers of people who choose that option regret it. Because
| the grass isn't always greener, and you don't suddenly regain
| youth, and your life isn't suddenly wonderful and free of
| obligation, etc. Which is clearly what this article is about,
| and not about abusive or broken relationships.
|
| There's a bit of a Reddit meme that people post their "my
| partner forgot to put their yogurt cup in the recycling" and
| 90% of the replies are some variation of "lawyer up, hit the
| gym, dump their ass" type commentary, and it's just comical.
| Misery loves company. Miserable people are like Sirens of
| greek mythology, and their greatest hope is to encourage
| others to be as miserable.
|
| >As a culture, we are moving away from upholding institutions
| for their own sake
|
| Divorce rates are at like a 50-year low so this is a strange
| statement to make.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| While it is true that some marriages aren't fixable, my
| opinion is that people jump way too quickly to the divorce
| option in our culture. As such, I think that we (as a whole
| society) need the "try to make it work" message more than we
| need the "it's ok to not stick around" message.
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _a lot of very common situations where leaving a marriage is
| justified_
|
| you need to make a much more robust argument than this. In this
| context, this comes across as "in and out of a marriage, that
| should be easy, but moving house, think a little harder on it"
|
| it might very well be true as you say that it is common, but
| ideally should people commonly discover "reasons" to dissolve
| their marriage? How about treating the period before marriage
| as boot camp instead of travel, sunsets, wine and roses? I have
| no end of travel-sunsets-wine-roses soulmates, that's easy.
| efields wrote:
| There's always exceptions. He doesn't talk about situations of
| spousal abuse, because those are houses on fire. You don't live
| inside a burning house.
| carbonara_time wrote:
| Totally agree - I'd go so far and say that it can be a
| dangerous mindset.
|
| It is possible for relationships to be damaging for one or both
| members. It's easy to say this the mindset of making things
| work doesn't apply to abusive relationships - but it's not
| always clear what abuse is. The very mindset that 'divorce is
| not an option' means that people spend far too long in
| dangerous situations.
|
| From my experience - I was married for 6 years to someone who,
| from the same starting position, moved to a very different
| philosophical viewpoint to me. This evolved over time, but by
| the end she'd happily tell me my belief system was wrong and
| immoral, and that she wanted she were married to someone who
| shared her viewpoint. She even said that in her opinion we
| shouldn't be married, but that she didn't believe in divorce.
| She'd never accept that there was anything wrong with what she
| was doing - she was simply trying to save me - and when I said
| 'I find what you're saying hurtful' she'd tell me she had no
| choice but to say it.
|
| I can only imagine how miserable a time she was having, but she
| saw no choice but to continue in that relationship.
|
| This never seemed like abuse at the time - and I'm certain she
| didn't mean it as such - but with hindsight she broke down my
| confidence in myself and in who I was and left me fundamentally
| doubting whether I was a good person (among other things, like
| making relationships with friends and family difficult).
|
| Of course, everyone's experience is unique, but when I left
| that relationship I felt guilty, selfish and like I'd failed.
| It's only with hindsight that I can say with confidence that it
| was the best thing for everyone involved, and I'm much happier
| and healthier some years and plenty of therapy later. The
| narrative expressed in the article means people stay in awful
| situations they could be well out of.
|
| We didn't have kids - and I'd definitely have been considering
| different things if we did (in particular, not wanting those
| kids to end up with a mother whose world view I fundamentally
| disagreed with, without my influence), but it may well still
| have been the right decision.
| sophyphreak wrote:
| Sometimes I'm like, "Why do I still read Hacker News?" And then I
| read something like this, and I'm like, "This is why!"
| efields wrote:
| Ditto.
| rfolks92 wrote:
| Its always the next rewrite of the codebase that is the final
| one, isn't it?
| bluGill wrote:
| So long as I'm around and have a voice the last was the final
| one. On hindsight we could have refactored the existing code in
| place for similar costs - and have results to show much
| quicker, while a few rarely used features that we decided not
| to rewrite would still be working (with the old ugly UI).
| unbalancedevh wrote:
| Zen and the Art of Life Maintenance
| nkg wrote:
| I see what you did there ;) One idea from the book that stuck
| with me is that we are too often in a rush to get this or that
| done, so we can move on with our life. Instead, we can take the
| time to do it the right way and find some kind of happiness in
| the process.
| jbaczuk wrote:
| Related: At the beginning of my career I jumped around from
| startup to startup doing hardware, firmware, mobile, web dev,
| blockchain, Alexa/Google Home, and then started consulting. Then
| my client pool dried up during the pandemic. When I started at my
| current job 3 years ago, I decided I will stay put for a while
| and resist the urge to look for something "better". I wanted to
| take on more responsibility and learn what it is like to build
| software and maintain it for years to come. There are some
| valuable lessons I learned from doing that. The world runs on the
| backbone of people who are willing to stay put.
| __loam wrote:
| Unfortunately sometimes the best way to advance, salarywise or
| otherwise, is to leave. The industry should do a better job at
| retention.
| munificent wrote:
| At the top of every source file I work on is a copyright. I
| maintain a program where some of those files say copyright
| 2014, and I created those files the first time. It's a weird
| feeling sitting in a single codebase that long. Satisfying but
| also I can't help but wonder if there are other things I could
| have been doing instead.
| Carrok wrote:
| I haven't had a raise in two years. In fact some of my benefits
| have been reduced, so I'm making less than when I got hired.
|
| Next week I start a role with a 20% pay bump. Staying is only
| justified if your company actually reacts to the realities of
| the world and the job market.
| bluGill wrote:
| Yeah, as a "stayer" I've learned every few years the company
| will give everyone a 10% pay raises just to catch back up. I
| hate switching jobs so I don't want to leave, but companies
| haven't figured that out.
|
| It isn't hard - inflation is a known % every years, your
| average raise needs to exceeded that - once someone has
| experience they are only worth a cost of living raise, but
| juniors moving up to senior should be getting large raises
| every year to reflect their growth. Yet HR/management never
| looks at inflation before figuring out raises even though not
| matching inflation is how you fall behind and lost people
| with experience.
|
| Of course companies have not yet learned to value experience.
| I'm not sure what will teach them that.
| bornfreddy wrote:
| The cynic in me is certain that inflation, among other
| things, is a tool for lowering peoples' wages. Not in
| numbers, but in value.
| willturman wrote:
| It doesn't though. I've left entire knowledge bases and
| bulletproof tools behind and haven't looked back. Constant
| maintenance is a sign of shitty design. A hallmark of
| craftsmanship is leaving a supportable low maintenance
| environment in your wake - most people's jobs exist in a world
| of shitty products and the maintenance environment around them.
| Linus Torvalds or Ray Eames could live wherever the fuck they
| wanted and their impact to the "backbone" of the world would
| still be immeasurable.
| oneepic wrote:
| "It's that simple, and that hard." --Richard Hamming
|
| (but, he was talking about doing science)
| kraftman wrote:
| I think the key difference in this analogy that needs to be
| acknowleded is that in a house repair, the owner of the house
| needs to want the repairs, and agree to pay for them. You can
| decided to stay in a relationship and try and fix it but unless
| the other person is also willing to try and fix it too, you're
| not going to get anywhere.
| bluGill wrote:
| While true, most often both have some want and just don't see
| how to fix things up. If you can figure out how to fix things
| up then that is the best thing to do.
|
| While I'm a big believer in marriage for life, I do recognize
| that sometimes past you messed up and leaving is the best
| option. 75% (maybe more) of my message isn't about fixing up
| the current relationship, but carefully choosing who you get
| into one with in the first place.
| slothtrop wrote:
| If you're trying to fix it in good faith, then marriage
| counseling and the like is already going to be in the
| conversation. Still, you can lead a horse to water but can't
| make them drink. Maybe most couples can reach a compromise,
| but the blank-slate attitude in the article is for the birds.
| It's informed by religious conviction. The sanctity of
| marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is
| secondary.
| nice_byte wrote:
| You only have about 70 years on this earth, out of which only
| about 50 are healthy and independent. Don't waste them being
| miserable. Don't waste your partner's time either.
| smeej wrote:
| Misery is (usually) a choice. Yes, there are situations of
| exploitation and abuse, and that's why I put in the caveat, but
| even if you imagine situations that seem terrible from where
| you're sitting now, most of them have examples where someone is
| living them and is still joyful.
| adolph wrote:
| _now the drain was rusted and when I went to loosen the nut, the
| steel sink cracked and split, but it was an old sink so I
| couldn't find a matching one to replace it with, so that meant
| the old vanity had to go too, but that left an odd footprint on
| the curled, old linoleum, so then the flooring had to go too,
| and, well, if you're going that far, you might as well put in a
| new tub._
|
| This is a lot like those cascades of technical debt that must be
| overcome to fix some otherwise minor thing.
| timfsu wrote:
| Loved this article. My two "superpowers" as a dad - superglue and
| new batteries. Sometimes I get to bring out the soldering iron -
| my wife will bring things home from Buy Nothing so I can fix it,
| the kids play with it for a day, and then we let it go again, but
| this time in working condition :)
| xivzgrev wrote:
| 100%. As I've gotten older, the things that have given me the
| most satisfaction are those that take place over a long time.
|
| It's kind of like planting trees - it can take a while to see the
| fruit, but then it keeps on giving with some ongoing maintenance.
|
| In my life, my significant other, my career, and financials are
| those areas I heavily invested early on, and a decade on they are
| quite strong. I still struggle, but when I take a step back, I
| can see these are very good and feel grateful.
|
| There were many times I have been tempted to leave. But I kept an
| eye on the big picture, what would leaving really change for me?
| And the answer was not much, I am still me (as noted in the
| article).
|
| On the other hand, I have under invested in myself (health,
| hobbies, spirituality) and friends. My main struggle is working
| to shift my focus away from maximizing the former, and begin
| balancing more of the latter.
|
| It's an ongoing journey :)
| nxobject wrote:
| I'd like to add something else to that list - the connectedness
| you feel in a community: the neighbors you grab beer with and
| help out in a pinch; the cashiers you get to know over time;
| the people at the after hours sports team or hobbyist community
| you get to know. Move to a different city (or even across
| town!) and that takes time to rebuild.
|
| It's why I nearly considered an academic career and decided
| against it - having to constantly move for grad school, then
| post doc positions, onwards and onwards regularly never
| appealed to me.
| prideout wrote:
| The "Comment" magazine looks nice, nowadays I don't see many
| appealing printed magazines. I wonder if there are print
| publications out there on technical subjects that interest me.
| jamesbvaughan wrote:
| Stripe's Increment Magazine was pretty cool, but it seems like
| they stopped publishing new editions in 2021:
| https://store.increment.com/
|
| On the slightly less technical side, I've been enjoying
| Asterisk Mag: https://asteriskmag.com/
| dominicq wrote:
| For the most part, "repair and remain" is very good advice, but
| there's a small but significant percentage where it's the
| opposite of what you should do. Sometimes you live in a building
| that's ready for teardown and you should leave (metaphorically
| and literally).
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| Yeah, but this is good advice precisely because most people
| don't do it and it's not intuitive.
| drnewman wrote:
| True, but I think the point of the article is that, in modern
| life, we tend to err strongly in the other direction.
| Zelphyr wrote:
| Several people here are saying something like "Life is too short
| to be miserable. Get out and be happy."
|
| I tried that. In the span of a month we had a newborn, I lost my
| job, the market went into the worst recession since the Great
| Depression. Later I lost another job and we had to short-sell our
| house.
|
| We got a divorce and it wasn't because of any of those things
| (though, they did influence it). It was because my default was to
| run away from my problems.
|
| Funny thing; the divorce didn't eliminate the stress. It just
| moved it around in my body and mind and led to near constant
| anger, anxiety, and panic spasms. I went to see a therapist who
| taught me to be present with what I'm feeling. (He practiced
| Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, for anyone interested) I did
| that in earnest and one day about six months after starting
| therapy I realized what a mistake I had made in giving up on my
| marriage.
|
| I reached out and we were able to repair the relationship and
| we've been back together for over ten years now, thankfully.
| We're closer than ever. I don't recommend that particular method
| of repairing a relationship, by the way. ;)
|
| It hasn't always been easy since we got back together but, it has
| been worth it. We were talking the other day--we talk a lot,
| important!--and we both agreed that at the start of our
| relationship, our feelings for each other were very intense. Now
| that we've been together for over twenty years (with a short "We
| were on a break!" in the middle) we find that the intensity of
| our love for each other isn't the same but it is so much deeper
| than it was at the start and only grows more so the more we're
| together. We realized that you can only get that if you stay and
| work on the relationship.
| philip1209 wrote:
| My understanding is that Acceptance and Commitment Therapy
| (ACT) is considered a "fourth wave" psychotherapy, whereas
| Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) is considered more "third
| wave". Many therapists still focus on CBT, so those that are
| interested in ACT will have to seek out practitioners of it.
|
| The classic consumer-facing book about CBT is "Feeling Good",
| and a good consumer-facing book about ACT is "The Happiness
| Trap."
|
| I share this because your comment may resonate with people, and
| I think it's important to understand that ACT is quite
| different than the more-common CBT.
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| Wow! Congratulations and good on you for putting in the work to
| bring it back around. We'd be better as a society if more had
| the emotional fortitude to do what you did.
|
| I've seen too many marriages fall apart because a single party
| was apathetic long enough that the second party finally got the
| memo. It's a tragedy in every sense of the word; especially for
| the kids.
| philip1209 wrote:
| I enjoyed this article. As a bit of a contrast, I also recommend
| this article I came across yesterday, which criticizes the
| American idea of building a home as an isolated utopia:
|
| "The Suburban Lifestyle Dream" https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-
| suburban-lifestyle-dream
|
| > Even as the West has built some of the world's most
| extraordinary cities, this Puritanical, anti-urban throughline
| runs across our culture. The desire to return to an Edenic state
| is a central theme in the story of how the "Suburban Lifestyle
| Dream" first entered our collective conscience. That dream has
| powered the unique pattern of suburbanization that typifies much
| of modern America--one marked by "stratified and segregated
| social geography" and "relatively low density."
| roughly wrote:
| As the saying goes, "Wherever you go, there you are."
| zhynn wrote:
| I love the feeling I get when I recycle or repurpose something
| that would have been trash into something useful. Especially if
| it becomes even more beautiful from its past patina.
|
| This can go too far and put you in a cycle of spending all of
| your time tending jank (and lowing your quality bar). It's a fine
| edge to walk. but that pleasure hit that most people get from
| buying stuff, it doesn't work for me. Buying new things often
| makes me feel guilty. Re-using or repurposing something though...
| for me it's one of the best highs there is.
| sneak wrote:
| > _Same with pastoring: no point thinking you need a brand-new
| life, but, well, let's not kid around--you could use some serious
| updates and upgrades yourself._
|
| This is the core presumption of the arrogance of the christian
| faith. The very concept that mankind is inherently flawed, always
| in need of cosmic repair from some imaginary being.
|
| If that isn't the epitome of a toxic and pathological worldview,
| I don't know what is.
|
| Literally everything good in this life was conceived of and
| created by mankind.
| gowld wrote:
| Yes, it is toxic and pathalogical to assume you are perfect and
| hurl unsubsantiated allegations. So, please stop.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| I cannot overrecommend marriage counseling. (And if you have
| kids, make sure the counselor has their own kids. It matters a
| lot.) We tend to devise all manner of distortions about how our
| spouse really feels, and fear saying things that need to be said.
| It literally saved my marriage.
|
| The reason it has a poor track record IMHO is what this guy is
| saying about the nail clipper: don't let the problems fester.
| Oncologists can only save people who are diligent about doing
| their cancer screenings to catch problems early.
| sneak wrote:
| > _But a brand-new house won't fix your troubles any more than a
| fresh start with a fascinating new somebody will._
|
| With full-grown adults (ie 27-28+), there is rarely such a thing
| as a fixer-upper. If you're unhappy with your fully adult
| partner, cut and run. Life is short and opportunity cost is real.
| You are doing them and yourself no favors.
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