[HN Gopher] Limits to running speed in dogs, horses and human
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Limits to running speed in dogs, horses and human
Author : fforflo
Score : 56 points
Date : 2024-08-07 14:57 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (journals.biologists.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (journals.biologists.com)
| stonethrowaway wrote:
| I don't think the title is accurate. And this isn't about
| biology. The biology is there and the author dismisses it in
| Introduction and proceeds to go down the statistics rabbit hole.
| A golden opportunity to discuss how we can obtain limits of
| locomotion while adhering to thermodynamics was lost. There's no
| physiology in here. Instead, we have plots of past competitions
| and silly predictions to go along with it.
|
| I suppose I'm asking too much of the author to write the "Tire &
| Vehicle Dynamics" book applied to the human body but, one can
| dream I suppose.
| Mathnerd314 wrote:
| Yeah, I was hoping for something building on this kind of work:
| https://simtk.org/projects/runningsim There is definitely a
| speed at which your muscles would have to exert more force than
| bones/tendons can handle, for example. And then there is
| probably a muscle/weight tradeoff.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| > And then there is probably a muscle/weight tradeoff
|
| For sprinting I don't know that there is, given that muscles
| are capable of exerting more force than their weight.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| if you're a data guy, then that's what you do.
|
| If there are absolute limits, they are probably in the
| ligaments. See my answer above about baseball pitchers.
| Someone wrote:
| > If there are absolute limits, they are probably in the
| ligaments.
|
| Maybe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_collateral_ligam
| ent_reco...:
|
| _"Some baseball pitchers believe that they can throw
| harder after ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction than
| they did beforehand. As a result, orthopedic surgeons have
| reported that parents of young pitchers have asked them to
| perform the procedure on their uninjured sons in the hope
| that it will increase performance. However, many people,
| including Frank Jobe, believe that any postsurgical
| increases in performance are most likely the result of the
| increased stability of the elbow joint and pitchers '
| increased attention to their fitness and conditioning. Jobe
| believed that rather than allowing pitchers to gain speed,
| the surgery and rehab protocols merely allow pitchers to
| return to their pre-injury levels of performance."_
|
| (I don't see that header "misconceptions" follow from that
| paragraph, which says _"some people believe A, others
| believe not-A"_ )
|
| Also, even if ligaments can't be trained to be stronger and
| can't be replaced by something stronger, longer arms should
| lead to faster throws for the same forces on those
| ligaments, wouldn't it?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| well, there's always surgery, isn't there? Bionic
| pitchers.
|
| Longer arms: maybe. The tallest pitchers aren't the
| fastest, though. And there will probably never be a human
| with a 10 foot wingspan.
|
| There have always been pitchers with unhittable
| fastballs, but often they can't control them and they
| walk too many batters.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Looking at <100 years of data, fitting a logistic equation to it
| and concluding that the limit is close to the current plateau is
| ... unsatisfying.
|
| Maybe that's an unfair summary, there is more statistic rigor
| than that in the paper. But nonetheless the observed time period
| seems way too small to support any conclusion
| Aachen wrote:
| I was similarly wondering whether the author has tried taking a
| subset of the data and seeing if the result still comes out the
| same. It seems mildly suspect that, in each case, it just so
| happens that we've just about reached the limit. By excluding
| recent data, there can't be a bias to recent values
| hansvm wrote:
| It depends a bit on your model of the observed performance
| improvements. Do we have better training and nutrition (a
| logistic model seems simplistic if so)? Do we simply perform
| better when we have other high-performing peers to compete
| against (in which case the logistic model isn't perfect, but
| it's not terrible -- you'd expect an exponential increase in
| population to have enough additional brackets to get every
| constant, additive gain, and assuming logistic growth for the
| population a logistic curve-fitting roughly inverts that
| function)?
|
| At best though, it's a model of what _will_ be achieved, as
| opposed to the hypothetical bounds on those achievements if we
| were going to invest resources into hitting them.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| What it incredibly frustrating to me that is on the one hand,
| we might somewhat glibly say that we know we can ignore the
| data for the preceding 5000 years because we know that all the
| fastest performances have been in the last century.
|
| But merely saying that then leads to the question: do we
| actually know that?
|
| And what's frustrating is that I don't there is any way to be
| confident about any answer to that question.
| scott_w wrote:
| I think we can. We have archeological records showing us what
| even the fittest people looked like and what clothes they
| wore. Modern equipment is so much better than what ancient
| people had access to, it's just not even close.
|
| Better nutrition means people can get bigger/stronger more
| easily. Easier access to training equipment amplifies this.
|
| The access to information we have means even more people can
| train more optimally than people in the past possibly could.
|
| The sheer volume of people gives us statistical probability
| that genetic freaks will appear more frequently.
|
| All of these gives us more confidence that current records
| are "true" records.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Right. A data-based approach is unsatisfying. Here is a related
| question:
|
| How fast can a baseball pitcher throw a ball? Will we ever see
| a 125 mph fastball? There's no equipment involved (running
| shoes, etc.)
|
| I saw an physics-based analysis of this once, based on the
| tendons in the arm and shoulder. Your muscles might get
| stronger and your mechanics might be optimized, but the tendons
| do not improve. At what speed will they just snap?
|
| This video is only a little bit about that, when the
| physiologist mentions the ligaments. It's hugely entertaining,
| though:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8udNOTFiqUs
| Aachen wrote:
| The to-me coolest bit is at the very bottom, captioned "context":
|
| > [...] a women running the estimated absolute fastest speed for
| 100 m would have beaten the world's fastest male in 1955, a feat
| that would have astounded contemporary spectators. The predicted
| maximum speed (5.83 m s-1) for a man running a marathon (42.2 km)
| would have been fast enough to beat the great Emil Zatopek in his
| world's best 10 km race in 1954. Those in the stands watching
| that race could not have imagined someone besting Zatopek by 16
| s, and then simply continuing at that winning pace for another
| 32.2 km.
|
| The actual result for humans is split out by distance and gender
| in figure 11 near the bottom, peaking at ~150m distance just shy
| of 11 for men and 10 m/s for women
| polishdude20 wrote:
| I wonder if we have better/faster athletes now because poverty
| is going down? Like, back in the 1950's there were people on
| this earth who were genetically the best at running but
| potentially did not have the economic means to actually train
| themselves and develop. As we bring more people above the
| poverty line, there's more of a chance of finding those
| genetically gifted people and developing them.
| hacb wrote:
| The technology related to running also improved a lot in the
| last years (running shoes with carbon inserts, better
| nutrition, ...)
| K0balt wrote:
| I'd conjecture that what we see with both humans and animals
| is a result of two primary factors: nutrition and global
| mobility. Better food and medicine combined with mobility so
| that the best of the best can be brought to the competition.
| wiether wrote:
| There are dozens factors that explains the performance
| improvements, like tech that can help detect future talents,
| globalization that can help finding talents in the middle of
| nowhere, studies on physiology... The biggest one being
| probably : experience. Thousands of athletes and coaches have
| learn for other's success and failures regarding training,
| pacing, resting, nutrition and removal of psychological
| limitations. Roger Bannister history is relevant : before he
| broke the 4mn mile, people thought it was impossible for
| decades. Once he did, many other achieved the same feat in
| the following years.
|
| Regarding your question about poverty, I'd say it's a tough
| one.
|
| Because in third World countries, only the athletes that pass
| the selection process actually come out of poverty. The
| others stay there.
|
| In rich countries on the other hand, I see two things :
|
| - having the means to train with the best coaches, the best
| gear... can help you make it to the top ; some rich parents
| are even pushing hard this way (see the article on tennis a
| few weeks back here en HN)
|
| - but also, if you have the means to go to college, aiming
| for a regular career is a way much safer bet than pursuing a
| professional athlete career. Teenagers that are very good at
| a sport and are given the choice between the two, most are
| going to pick the regular career and enjoy sport outside of
| work. A poor kid who's choice is between a life changing
| career in sports and stay in the misery they known since
| their birth, are definitely going to pick the only one
| offering the hope of a positive outcome.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| I would imagine that as global population increases, we just
| get to buy more and more lottery tickets with the hope of
| producing someone with the genes, the temperament, and the
| upbringing to excel in any given niche in increasingly absurd
| ways.
| flowincarnate wrote:
| There are a lot of factors, however for better or worse PEDs
| are likely a huge portion of this. I don't think folks
| realize just how pervasive their use is in almost every
| sport.
| Someone wrote:
| "PED" isn't a precise term. I think most sports, at top
| level, are kind of clean in that athletes adhere to doping
| regulations.
|
| They also sail extremely close to the limits, though. For
| example, exercise induced asthma is extremely common for
| athletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise-
| induced_bronchoconstr...:
|
| _"Research by sports scientist John Dickinson found that
| 70 percent of UK-based members of the British swimming team
| had some form of asthma, as did a third of Team Sky
| cyclists, compared to a national asthma rate of eight to
| ten percent, whilst a study by the United States Olympic
| Committee in 2000 found that half of cross-country skiers
| had EIB."_
|
| Many of those athletes will use medicine to correct for
| this that enhances their performance. That isn't _that_
| different from taking corticosteroids to cure an
| inflammation that thus allow athletes to train at higher
| intensity, but the former is medicine and the latter is
| forbidden medicine aka doping.
| tofflos wrote:
| I believe that the popular working theory is that poor people
| have less options, i.e. distractions, which leads to more
| time spent training and better athletes. If the theory is
| correct then bringing people out of poverty would also
| decrease the number of candidates.
| diggan wrote:
| > I believe that the popular working theory is that poor
| people have less options, i.e. distractions, which leads to
| more time spent training and better athletes
|
| That sounds backwards. Poor people have more distractions,
| they need to think about how to survive the current
| week/month with the little they have, and do everything
| they can do make sure to afford housing and food, leading
| to less time spent training.
|
| At least that's my personal experience of being poor and
| not being able to focus because I didn't know if I'd afford
| the rent the next month.
| wiseowise wrote:
| > I believe that the popular working theory is that poor
| people have less options, i.e. distractions, which leads to
| more time spent training and better athletes.
|
| As someone who grew up poor - this doesn't make any sense.
| When you're poor you can't afford training, you can't
| afford food and time to stay competitive.
| paganel wrote:
| On the other hand the women 100 m world record has been the
| same for almost 40 years now ( 36, to be more precise), I don't
| see how anyone could improve on that by a wide margin in the
| next 40 years.
| User23 wrote:
| Improvements in womens' sprint times ceased the same time
| drug testing got good enough to catch all the androgens then
| in use.
|
| Today's women doubtless could beat those records with modern
| gear and pharmaceutical enhancements.
| trte9343r4 wrote:
| Include transgender athletes and record improves a lot. There
| is no reason why women should be slower than males.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Your solution to improving women records is to bring
| biological males?
| trte9343r4 wrote:
| Not to "bring", they are already there! Just stop
| discrimination!
| beretguy wrote:
| > a women running the estimated absolute fastest speed for 100
| m would have beaten the world's fastest male in 1955
|
| Maybe it's because they had less body weight to "move".
| joaomacp wrote:
| Obligatory related paper:
|
| "in the future, the fastest humans on the planet might be a
| quadrupedal runner at the 2048 Olympics, which may be achieved by
| shifting up to the rotary gallop and taking longer strides with
| wide sagittal trunk motion."
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4928019/
| ptsneves wrote:
| Today I learned there is such a thing as human quadrupedal
| rubbing. https://youtu.be/RZlvWpeC208?si=xsii66h2cPtjH6ba
| jacobolus wrote:
| 15.7 seconds to run 100 meters on all fours is pretty
| impressive, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3h0AkNNP70
|
| Seems like it would be hard on the wrists.
| jijojohnxx wrote:
| Interesting perspective!
| mark-r wrote:
| Interesting fact: humans are well built for shedding excess heat,
| which is a limiting factor in long races. It is possible under
| the right weather conditions for a man to outrun a horse.
| spacecadet wrote:
| I am not a researcher here, but I have read that some believe
| this contributed to early human success, as it allowed humans
| to essentially run down their prey over long distances. For
| instance, as a bow hunter, I have observed how short distance a
| deer can actually flat out run before what appears to be lack
| of "something", not lack of fear. That something being energy
| or physical constraints of some kind.
|
| I am also a long distance runner with ultra marathons under my
| belt and I believe that humans are great at sustained long
| distance. Anything can sprint fast for a short distance, but it
| requires a unique combination of human qualities to sustain
| medium speed over great distances.
| paganel wrote:
| Since I've started owning dogs I've realized how much of an
| advantage we, humans, have as a species because we can sweat
| and hence regulate our temperature through almost all of our
| body, while on the other hand dogs can only do that through
| their tongues (afaik).
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Dogs have a higher surface-area-to-volume ratio, which
| helps, though the fur of course hinders.
|
| On a related note, I've speculated for years that tongues
| play a major cooling role for whales. These are highly
| vascularised structures which can be exposed to tremendous
| water flows (for effective thermal transfer). The animals
| otherwise have an immense metabolism, and are largely quite
| well insulated by blubber. And of course cannot effectively
| sweat. Even if the _usual_ problem is heat retention,
| highly-energetic activities (long-distance migration,
| escape from or combat with predators, feeding activities)
| might result in _excess_ heat which needs to be shed
| quickly. As a long-time swimmer myself I 've experienced
| overheating even in relatively cool waters (for humans) and
| the challenges in _reducing_ core temps. There have been
| multiple cases of open-water swimmers overheating and even
| dying swimming in warm temperatures (several in the middle-
| east over the past decade or so).
|
| I'd just written that I'd found no scientific literature
| discussing this when I attempted another search (using
| FastGPT from Kagi, which I'm finding quite useful for this
| sort of thing). And lo! Two hits:
|
| "Thermoregulation in the mouths of feeding gray whales"
| (1997) <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9353198/> doi:
| 10.1126/science.278.5340.1138.
|
| "The blood vessel network in the tongues of gray whales
| precools blood to avoid heat loss via counter-current heat
| exchange." <https://asknature.org/strategy/lingual-rete-
| precools-blood/>
|
| This actually discusses structures of the tongue which
| _reduce_ thermal transfer, but also specifically addresses
| the characteristics of the tongue which make it effective
| _at_ thermal transfer:
|
| _Baleen whales such as the gray whale move huge quantities
| of cold ocean water through their very large mouths and
| across the filtering surface of the baleen. The tongue of a
| whale can represent as much as 5% of its total body surface
| area. The whale's body is well insulated with blubber but
| not the tongue. Thus, to avoid losing too much of its body
| heat to the cold water passing through its mouth, the gray
| whale's tongue has the largest counter-current heat
| exchanger yet described._
|
| I feel vindicated!
| polymatter wrote:
| There is a race based on that.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
|
| It's often fairly close between human and horse
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Posted recently though little discussion:
| <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41213618>
| WalterBright wrote:
| A huge advantage a human has is a will. A man will keep going
| far beyond where a horse will just quit.
| mark-r wrote:
| The horse may quit not because of lack of will, but simply
| because it is physically unable to go on. The body just stops
| working properly after a certain point.
| WalterBright wrote:
| A man will drive himself to much more exhaustion than a
| horse.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| There is in fact ample history of horses worked to
| exhaustion:
|
| "When Horses Posed a Public Health Hazard" (2008):
|
| _The horses posed another sanitation problem when they
| dropped dead -- sometimes from overwork, sometimes from
| disease..._
|
| <https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2
| 008/...>
|
| Similar concerns were key in the formation of the SPCA in
| Britain and the United States:
|
| <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSPCA>
|
| <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_the_P
| reve...>
|
| The legend that concerns over animal welfare inspired
| creation of San Francisco's cable cars ... seems
| unfounded:
|
| _Many people have heard the story of Andrew Hallidie
| inventing the cable car after seeing horses slip and fall
| to their death on the hilly cobblestones of San
| Francisco. The story feels right--as an animal lover,
| Hallidie went on to found the Society for the Prevention
| of Cruelty to Animals--and has achieved mythical status
| in San Francisco._
|
| _But it's not true._
|
| _Hallidie was motivated by a much more prosaic demand:
| making money._
|
| <https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/18/san-francisco-cable-
| cars-d...>
|
| (Hallidie also didn't invent the cable car, though his
| father invented, and he advanced, steel wire rope
| technology and its applications, including in cable
| cars.)
|
| Hallidie _did_ help found the SPCA, so he clearly had
| _some_ concern for animal welfare.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I presume there is a difference between driving a horse
| with a whip and the horse driving himself.
| lupire wrote:
| The host website is as interesting as the article:
|
| http://biologists.com
| Glyptodon wrote:
| I was hoping this would be a more mechanical/physics defined
| limit. Along the lines of "given bone shapes and mass, muscle
| mass, maximum twitch speed, and energy expenditure, we determined
| the maximum performance combinations and their physical limits."
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Let's say we have a 100 kg sprinter capable of anaerobically
| producing 20 watt/kg for up to 10s.
|
| How fast could they reach 100 m from a standing start, in a
| vacuum, with perfect traction?
|
| Having forgotten how to set up simple integrals, I've consulted
| the interwebs, which claim d = (8*P/9*m)^1/2 * t^3/2
|
| Assuming I can still do algebra, that's t = (d /
| (8P/9m)^1/2)^2/3 ~= a little over 8 sec ?
|
| Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zd-70dCstI&t=55s
| interludead wrote:
| Have you ever had the chance to see a Greyhound in real life?
| They are so beautiful.
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