[HN Gopher] Jake Seliger has died
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Jake Seliger has died
        
       Author : A_D_E_P_T
       Score  : 644 points
       Date   : 2024-08-09 13:19 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (marginalrevolution.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (marginalrevolution.com)
        
       | A_D_E_P_T wrote:
       | Confirmed by his brother on his GoFundMe:
       | https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-the-fight-against-cancer-wit...
       | 
       | May he rest in peace.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | Thanks for the link.
         | 
         | Bizarrely, the post on Marginal Revolution links to a post from
         | 5 days ago, and it's easy to confirm that Jake was still alive
         | when that post was published. (And, apparently, for almost a
         | week afterwards.) The gofundme appears to be the only source
         | that states he's died, and the MR report doesn't even mention
         | it. (Other than to include a link to it in a quote from someone
         | else.)
        
           | NhanH wrote:
           | Jake's writing was on hacker news 4 days ago and he was still
           | replying to the comment at the time:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41157974
           | 
           | Rest in Peace, Jake.
        
           | sgseliger wrote:
           | This is his brother. He passed away around 8:30pm on
           | Wednesday. He was still reading, writing, hearing from loved
           | ones up until the end.
        
             | voisin wrote:
             | Hope you and Bess are doing as well as can be hoped for
             | under the circumstances.
        
         | canucker2016 wrote:
         | His brother also posted a comment,
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2024/08/04/starting-hospice-the-end/...
         | , about his brother's death - slightly different wording than
         | the GoFundMe update.
        
       | aestetix wrote:
       | Fuck cancer :(
        
         | bigstrat2003 wrote:
         | Indeed. I had never even heard of Jake before the post a few
         | days ago about him going into hospice, so I had no personal
         | attachment to the guy. But even so, reading about what he and
         | his loved ones went through struck me as brutally unfair.
         | Nobody should have to suffer (or watch someone they love
         | suffer) like he did. Not just the disease itself but the
         | extreme measures he had to go through just to try to keep it at
         | bay. May he rest in peace.
        
           | michaelsbradley wrote:
           | Within each form of suffering endured by man, and at the same
           | time at the basis of the whole world of suffering, there
           | inevitably arises the question: why? It is a question about
           | the cause, the reason, and equally, about the purpose of
           | suffering, and, in brief, a question about its meaning. Not
           | only does it accompany human suffering, but it seems even to
           | determine its human content, what makes suffering precisely
           | human suffering.
           | 
           | It is obvious that pain, especially physical pain, is
           | widespread in the animal world. But only the suffering human
           | being knows that he is suffering and wonders why; and he
           | suffers in a humanly speaking still deeper way if he does not
           | find a satisfactory answer. This is a difficult question,
           | just as is a question closely akin to it, the question of
           | evil. Why does evil exist? Why is there evil in the world?
           | When we put the question in this way, we are always, at least
           | to a certain extent, asking a question about suffering too.
           | 
           | https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-
           | ii/en/apost_letters...
        
         | cancerboi wrote:
         | It ain't fun!
        
       | vinnyvichy wrote:
       | Jake's wife on FDA deregulation
       | 
       | https://bessstillman.substack.com/p/the-drugs-killing-dying-...
        
         | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
         | Thanks - it's so helpful for them to have documented this for
         | us to understand a very complex and opaque process. All while
         | they were under extreme stress.
        
         | fatnoah wrote:
         | I've experienced this from both sides. First with my father who
         | was dying of cancer and was informed that while some promising
         | treatments were in trials, he was not eligible. Balancing
         | potential harm from unapproved drugs vs. certain death within
         | 12 months feels like an easy task.
         | 
         | On the other side, my wife worked for a mid-sized pharma in the
         | past. After several rounds of trials that each cost tens of
         | millions of dollars, the FDA couldn't be convinced to approve
         | the drug, despite hearings full of people who were either alive
         | because the drug saved their lives or were hoping to have it
         | approved for future use. After a couple more trials, the
         | company ended up cutting losses and moving on to something
         | else. Again, it feels like there should be some pathway here.
         | Such a drug shouldn't be the first option if others are
         | available, but if there's nothing else or other treatments
         | haven't worked, what's the real harm in letting someone who's
         | going to die anyway give it a shot.
        
           | newzisforsukas wrote:
           | What was the drug?
        
           | llamaimperative wrote:
           | Part of the harm is in people no longer trusting drugs. We're
           | very fortunate to be able to get prescribed a drug and have
           | certainty the risk-reward tradeoffs have been evaluated to
           | extreme depth by experts far more equipped than we are.
        
             | barry-cotter wrote:
             | You are past of the reason the world is a worse place than
             | it could be. Without people like you defending excessive
             | caution as good for the PR of drug regulatory agencies
             | millions of people who are dead would be alive, possibly
             | tens of millions.
        
         | bena wrote:
         | This is a complicated subject.
         | 
         | Because those rules are in place for reasons. And some of those
         | reasons are to prevent drug companies from turning the poor
         | into lab rats with no regard to their safety. And I guarantee
         | you, you let "terminal" patients skirt rules, there will be a
         | hell of a lot more "terminal" patients.
         | 
         | And I'm sure there are some non-regulation reasons to limit
         | various therapies. They are trying to see if thing X can help.
         | And if thing X only helps when combined with thing Y, you don't
         | exactly get that information when focusing on thing X. Or the
         | worse scenarios of thing Y making thing X ineffective or
         | harmful.
         | 
         | This was written from a very emotional place, and
         | understandably so. But that state means they are not exactly in
         | a position to consider all the reasons. And it must be
         | frustrating as hell to have tried 40 things that didn't work to
         | only be denied the 41st because you tried too many other
         | things. Especially if that 41st thing turns out to be something
         | that works.
         | 
         | But I don't think the answer is let terminal patients take
         | whatever they feel like.
        
           | Zak wrote:
           | > _But I don 't think the answer is let terminal patients
           | take whatever they feel like._
           | 
           | I don't think anyone has the moral authority to tell anyone
           | else what they can take, especially terminal patients.
           | 
           | I do, however think governments have a responsibility to
           | regulate how drug companies conduct trials so as to minimize
           | harm to patients. This probably has the same outcome in
           | practice, but I find the moral distinction important.
        
             | somerandomqaguy wrote:
             | I don't think it's just that. Imagine the kind of money the
             | more unscrupulous could make selling sugar pills for $100
             | each saying that it's the cure for whatever is killing you.
             | 
             | Desperation can cloud even the most rational of minds.
        
               | Zak wrote:
               | People selling stuff are in the same category as the drug
               | companies; I have no objection to regulating them, and
               | imprisoning them for fraud, with an enhanced penalty for
               | preying on particularly vulnerable people in the case you
               | described.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | How exactly are you going to prove fraud without, you
               | know, the clinical trial data that you've just allowed
               | them not to produce in the first place?
               | 
               | Fraud is one risk -- the much bigger one is well-
               | intentioned people trying to save lives seeing positive
               | outcomes where there aren't any.
        
               | samstave wrote:
               | "Sugar Pills"
               | 
               | Yeah it happens a lot more than you think - the entire
               | everything - about USA pharma is absolute evil.
               | 
               | I've pissed off a lot of people in my statements about
               | how chemists are a very unscrupulous profession, and many
               | are downright evil. (you need to really learn about the
               | history of Sandoz, Bayer, Novartis, Du Pont, J&J,
               | Monsanto, and all the others.... <--- LONG history of
               | chemical weapons, chemical poisons, super-sites, deformed
               | babies. The lack of regulation and oversight in the
               | chemical industry has enabled these scandals to occur.
               | 
               | Watch the Devil We Know, for example about Teflon
               | 
               | https://i.imgur.com/vGIcL0d.png
               | 
               | --- [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2023/09/
               | 12/heres-wh...
        
               | Nasrudith wrote:
               | If I recall correctly, that is why it is illegal for
               | clinical trials to charge for experimental and unapproved
               | medication. The patient's "payment" is in taking the
               | risk, and the 'pay-off' towards the experimenter is that
               | it helps get their drug approved to a saleable state, if
               | it works. That part sounds like a good ethical system
               | design to avoid perverse incentives - the drug maker
               | doesn't gain anything unless it works and even then it is
               | indirectly.
        
               | llamaimperative wrote:
               | Is it illegal? Or does it just not make any sense to ask
               | someone taking an experimental drug to pay you for it?
               | It's ridiculously hard to get people to participate in a
               | trial even when pharma is _paying them_ (granted though,
               | also under the same ethics umbrella, such payments are
               | not supposed to incentivize a decision to participate,
               | only to remove the disincentives to participation, like
               | having to pay for Ubers to /from the trial site).
               | 
               | Actually the way that we prevent pharma companies from
               | using trials to commit fraud of this type is by tightly (
               | _very_ tightly) controlling the language they use to
               | describe drugs that are still under evaluation. Basically
               | every sentence that a researcher makes to a trial
               | participant needs to pass an ethics review board to make
               | sure it 's not overselling the promise or underselling
               | the risk.
        
             | sangnoir wrote:
             | > I don't think anyone has the moral authority to tell
             | anyone else what they can take, especially terminal
             | patients
             | 
             | Yet euthanasia is a very fraught subject in the land of the
             | free. The country may be coming less religious, but the
             | puritanical values remain; every life is precious, even one
             | that's in unbearable, irreversible agony, and those who
             | suffer probably deserve it.
        
             | bena wrote:
             | That's really the perspective I'm coming from. When I say
             | the answer isn't to let terminal patients take whatever
             | they feel like, it's to say that they shouldn't be the one
             | to make the decision that a developing drug is safe enough
             | for them to trial.
             | 
             | Just because one is terminal, it does not make one an
             | expert in medicine or pharmaceuticals. So it shouldn't be
             | used an exception to the processes in place.
        
             | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
             | Yep individual rights and autonomy over our bodies are
             | fundamental
        
           | UniverseHacker wrote:
           | As someone that works in drug discovery as an academic and
           | has patented drugs, I can tell you that the current process
           | is biased way too far towards safety for optimal life saving
           | outcomes if you look at it in a cold utilitarian way. A lot
           | of lives would be saved by fast-tracking the approval
           | process, despite the fact that there would also be an
           | increase in negative outcomes.
           | 
           | However, it is probably not socially or politically tenable
           | to kill or harm people with experimental drugs even if it
           | saves a greater number of people. Realistically, I don't see
           | things changing much.
           | 
           | I don't think its fair to dismiss this perspective as
           | "written from an emotional place." As Alex Tabarrok wrote
           | above, both Jake and his wife (a medical doctor) were
           | involved with this issue before his diagnosis.
        
         | throwaway5752 wrote:
         | May Jake rest in peace and may his memory be a blessing to his
         | wife and daughter.
         | 
         | Their views on clinical trials were understandable given the
         | circumstances. Those regulations were written in blood,
         | miscarriage/birth defects, autoimmune conditions, genetic
         | damage, and other horrors. This is a complicated ethical topic
         | because clinical trials can harm patients and families of
         | patients as much as they can help, and sometimes many years
         | after the fact of the trial. It's not an appropriate discussion
         | in a memorial post.
        
           | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
           | > It's not an appropriate discussion in a memorial post.
           | 
           | When else do we discuss it? This is bound to just disappear
           | into history and the government will carry on with business
           | as usual. I feel now's the time to get people educated and
           | discussing it at depth, when they care about it.
        
           | barry-cotter wrote:
           | May you be treated as a free man and not the slave you wish
           | others to be treated as.
        
       | david_allison wrote:
       | Rest in peace
        
       | kristofferR wrote:
       | For those who missed the "reference":
       | 
       | "Starting hospice. The end" - 1178 points 4 days ago
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41157974
        
         | ChrisArchitect wrote:
         | Further related:
         | 
         |  _How to let go: Jake 's life ends as his daughter's begins_
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41174621
        
       | onemoresoop wrote:
       | RIP Jake
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | So quickly. He must've been very ill indeed when he came in to
       | say his goodbyes. RIP Jake.
        
       | delichon wrote:
       | It's impressive to me that Jake managed to remain involved and
       | communicative until so near the end. I withdraw into a personal
       | shell when I get so much as a hang nail. Respect.
        
         | phone8675309 wrote:
         | As the romantic partner of someone going through a degenerative
         | disorder and as someone who watched my grandmother be consumed
         | by dementia I can say that it's something most people develop
         | over time instead of being born good at.
         | 
         | If a hang nail is bad enough to make you withdraw then that
         | means you don't have a lot of experience of getting sick to the
         | point where you had to push through as it hasn't happened a
         | lot. Over the course of the 14 years I've had with my partner
         | (started year 15 last month!) I've seen how she's had to adapt
         | to remain involved and communicative - and a lot of days,
         | that's a struggle for her that she puts herself through to stay
         | connected to the people she loves.
         | 
         | tl;dr: It's an adaptation, and I'm glad that you've not had to
         | build that adaptation.
        
           | painsucks wrote:
           | Fully agree. I live with cronic pain and people ask me if I'm
           | in pain, I say yes, then they want to stop whatever we're
           | doing and I say no, if I stop living because of this, I have
           | nothing else left but the pain. So yeah, you get used to
           | doing things with it. Some days it's impossible and I indeed
           | do nothing but most days, meh.. Screw it, I have stuff I
           | actually want to do.
        
             | ethbr1 wrote:
             | Obama gave an answer in his _Comedians in Cars Getting
             | Coffee_ episode that stuck with me.
             | 
             | Seinfeld asked something like 'How do you deal with
             | constant annoyances, all the time, when you're president?'
             | 
             | And Obama replied 'I expect it's similar to what you do --
             | you fall in love with the work. Sure, sometimes it's
             | painful, annoying, backwards, foolish, etc. But in the end
             | you fall in love with the work, and it saves you.'
             | 
             | That defined purpose in a way I'd never thought about it,
             | and probably undergirds every religion.
             | 
             | It also made me try to open my heart more to people dealing
             | with chronic pain or mental health issues, in terms of
             | their subjective effort. Objectively, it may look like
             | they're just doing {normal thing}, but subjectively that
             | may be requiring 10x or 100x effort from them. And that
             | effort (the work) deserves its own respect, independent of
             | outome.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | If you look at the disease progression and his blogging
         | history, it was a few months before he _did_ open up about the
         | situation.
         | 
         | (He may have discussed it earlier on HN, I haven't gone through
         | his history to check on this.)
         | 
         | Once he began, however, he continued to the bitter end. And yes
         | that is commendable.
        
       | danielvaughn wrote:
       | Reading his post was like a gut punch, and I didn't even know the
       | guy. It breaks your heart to hear someone speak with certainty
       | about their own demise, and to face it with such grace and
       | clarity makes it all the more heart-wrenching. It sounds like he
       | was with his family in his final moments, and I hope he wasn't in
       | much pain. Rest in peace.
        
         | CharlieDigital wrote:
         | I can't remember where I read this, but it's always stuck with
         | me:                   "Healthy is merely the slowest form of
         | dying"
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | About 160,000 people die each day on this planet. It's probably
         | safe to assume that a good number of them are facing it with
         | grace and clarity. The fact that many aren't able to, for one
         | reason or another, is maybe more heart-breaking, in a way.
        
         | passion__desire wrote:
         | After reading "A Sister's Eulogy for Steve Jobs", I felt Steve
         | Jobs was finally happy with the way he lived life.
        
           | samstave wrote:
           | For some weird reason, I know exactly where I was when Jobs
           | died. (Driving upper market street in SF on a sunny morning)
           | 
           | But Ill never for get what he was claimed to have said as his
           | last words: " _Oh.. wow_ "
        
         | kalaksi wrote:
         | I just relatively recently found his posts through HN. Even
         | though I've only read something like 5-8 posts, I quickly
         | became "attached", for lack of a better word, as I truly
         | enjoyed the writing and openness. It brought me closer to that
         | kind of situation, and the people in it, than I've (yet) ever
         | been. I wish them all the best.
        
       | cheez0r wrote:
       | RIP, Jake. The world is lesser without you.
        
       | NaOH wrote:
       | Mensch
        
       | NeutralForest wrote:
       | RIP, his later articles really echoed some of my personal
       | experiences. Thanks Jake for taking the time to write what many
       | others couldn't.
       | 
       | Spend time with your loved ones.
        
       | Bluestein wrote:
       | A black bar might be in order.-
        
         | dyauspitr wrote:
         | Much as I followed Jake's story I don't think it fits. Though I
         | would be for it.
        
         | progre wrote:
         | Niklaus Wirth didn't get one
        
           | sctb wrote:
           | No way that's true. Indeed:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38864375. It would be
           | good if there was less Black Bar Bikeshedding.
        
       | s5300 wrote:
       | Terrible day for rain.
       | 
       | I like to think some day his daughter will appreciate getting to
       | go through his HN comments & such.
        
       | OuterVale wrote:
       | I've been following his story for quite a while. I knew this was
       | coming when I opened up Hacker News today; I just had that
       | feeling -- not that it made seeing it in type any easier.
       | 
       | He had a way with words that I was impressed to see him cling
       | onto until the very end.
       | 
       | Thanks Jake, you'll be missed.
        
       | benopal64 wrote:
       | Rest in peace, Jake.
       | 
       | His blog post recently was moving and eye-opening. If you are in
       | the headspace for tough topics, read it and you won't regret it.
        
       | churchill wrote:
       | RIP, Jake.
        
       | aubanel wrote:
       | Impressive to see the positivity that both him and his wife Bess
       | maintained in their last posts, despite the constant pain and
       | oncoming death. Real strength.
       | 
       | Rest in Peace Jake, and I wish you the best on the path forward
       | Bess!
        
       | fnord77 wrote:
       | I've seen about a half dozen articles on his passing from cancer,
       | but none of them say who he is.
       | 
       | Googling his name doesn't help either.
       | 
       | Who is he?
        
         | n1b0m wrote:
         | Based on his LinkedIn profile: a writer, editor and researcher
         | 
         | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-seliger-03363819
        
           | sgt wrote:
           | I think the whole story about Jake touched a lot of and in a
           | way it kind of felt like we knew him a bit. I told my wife
           | about him and what his brother and his wife had written, and
           | their circumstances. Now I will tell her tomorrow that the
           | guy died and we will both be sad about it.
        
         | slazaro wrote:
         | He was an active HN user and a writer, he had a very active
         | blog for many years, and he and his wife had been documenting
         | their struggles during his disease; some of those articles were
         | voted high here and had a lot of discussion around them. So in
         | the microcosm of HN, it's relevant news.
         | 
         | RIP Jake.
        
           | efilife wrote:
           | so what was this guy known for? for a blog? for his illness?
        
             | thom wrote:
             | Yes. He was an academic who wrote about writing, authored
             | two inconsequential novels, and was very open about his
             | cancer. Many people here interacted with him or his work,
             | but there's no shame if you didn't. A black bar on HN means
             | people asked for it, it's not a new entry on life's high
             | score table that needs to be rigorously justified.
        
       | whisper_yb wrote:
       | RIP, Jake.
        
       | dudus wrote:
       | What happens to his hacker News account? What about email
       | account, cloud servers, etc ...?
       | 
       | I know Google has a nice tool to share your account after you are
       | gone, as for the rest, I have no plans.
       | 
       | Anyone has good suggestions on managing one's own digital legacy?
        
         | Jimpulse wrote:
         | I believe he briefly talked about that in a post. I think he
         | gave all the account info to his wife.
        
         | flobosg wrote:
         | * Get Your Shit Together - https://getyourshittogether.org/
         | 
         | * What to Do Before You Die: A Tech Checklist -
         | https://archive.is/6vjqQ
         | 
         | * Cheat Sheet For If I'm Gone - https://archive.is/lnWX6 -
         | https://github.com/christophercalm/if-im-gone/blob/main/exam...
         | (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31748553)
        
       | 9dev wrote:
       | @dang I don't know what the criteria for the black top banner
       | are, but Jake would have earned it, IMHO. I never met him
       | personally, but his writing deeply moved me, and others too,
       | judging from the reactions.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Email such suggestions to mods at hn@ycombinator.com.
         | 
         | "@dang is a no-op":
         | <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36526450>
         | 
         | (Edit: I've emailed the suggestion, and we now have a black
         | bar.)
        
       | pseudolus wrote:
       | Profound condolences to his family and friends. Reading about his
       | journey was heart-breaking, all the more so knowing that he would
       | never be able to hold or know his daughter.
        
       | dredmorbius wrote:
       | Jake posted as jseliger on HN:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jseliger
       | 
       | He blogged at <https://jakeseliger.com/>, and numerous of his
       | blog articles were submitted to HN:
       | <https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=jakeseliger.com>. That
       | includes numerous topics, over the past year or so his experience
       | with cancer, often concerning frustrations with the process and
       | mechanism.
       | 
       | His essay on agenticness especially strikes me as hugely
       | insightful and underappreciated. It was submitted several times
       | to HN but saw little discussion:
       | 
       | <https://jakeseliger.com/2024/07/29/more-isnt-always-better-d...>
       | 
       | Jake's wife, now widow, Bess, blogs at Everything is an
       | Emergency: <https://bessstillman.substack.com>. That also details
       | the cancer / caregiving experience, from the point of view of a
       | wife, caregiver, expectant mother, and emergency-room doctor.
        
         | canucker2016 wrote:
         | In an August 2023 post about regrets,
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2023/08/12/regrets/, his last regret
         | is:                   * Not looking into that thing on my
         | tongue in July 2022, when I first noticed it, but that is very
         | specific to me and probably not generalizable.
         | 
         | In https://jakeseliger.com/2024/05/16/the-financial-costs-of-
         | he..., he mentions                   "...I got a partial
         | glossectomy in Oct. 2022. Mine had some high-risk features, but
         | I was assured that, with radiation therapy, it wouldn't recur
         | (Bess recalls the exact words being, "Don't worry, this won't
         | be what kills you").  ... In retrospect, however, I obviously
         | should've been given chemo with the radiation, but at the time
         | I was pleased to not need chemo, and I foolishly didn't look
         | deeper into the data on recurrence--which is common for HNSCC--
         | and I didn't seek second opinions. Some of those second
         | opinions might've said: "Get the chemotherapy."
         | 
         | Followed by radiation treatments, mentioned in
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2023/11/14/the-more-things-go-wrong-...
         | 
         | He posted about his followup investigation and the treatment of
         | his tongue one year after the treatment -
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2024/05/25/the-one-year-anniversary-...
         | "By July 21, less than two months later, another six to eight
         | tumors had grown. If I'd known how things would shake out, I
         | likely would've pivoted to chemo and clinical trials the moment
         | the surgical biopsy came back. But I didn't and couldn't."
         | 
         | His first public announcement of his cancer -
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2023/07/22/i-am-dying-of-squamous-ce...
         | 
         | Followed by https://jakeseliger.com/2023/07/23/how-do-we-
         | evaluate-our-li...
         | 
         | From his wife's perspective:
         | https://jakeseliger.com/2023/07/24/what-its-like-to-be-marri...
         | 
         | His wife had several posts about their search for an
         | appropriate trial for his cancer and how they dealt with his
         | cancer.
         | 
         | His outlook in May 2024: "The likelihood of me living to see
         | another anniversary is low--probably under 20%--but not 0%."
        
           | dredmorbius wrote:
           | Cancer is insidious in all kinds of ways. One in particular
           | is that insight into the _current_ and _possible_ state(s) of
           | a tumor are are _really_ difficult to assess. With all our
           | current imaging and testing capabilities, the human body is
           | _still_ largely a black box. Especially after multiple
           | surgeries, distinguishing new tumour growth from scar and
           | necrotic tissues is difficult.
           | 
           | And ... for suitably aggressive tumours, even what appears to
           | be complete removal ("clean margins") ... often isn't, and
           | what minuscule remnants remain can grow back with
           | discouraging ferocity. I'd visited a friend a few weeks after
           | they'd had a growth removed, and subsequently begun radiation
           | treatments and chemotherapy. _In that brief interval between
           | surgery and treatment_ the lips of the incision had spread
           | apart by several centimetres. That turned out to be an
           | ominous portent.
           | 
           | Second-guessing is also par for the course, and without
           | comparative study it's hard to know if more immediate or
           | aggressive treatment (e.g., immediate chemo in Jake's case)
           | might have helped. Looking up survival stats on particular
           | cancers can be illuminating. The one which took my friend
           | three decades ago _still_ has a  < 20% five-year survival.
        
           | gammondorf wrote:
           | I'm interested in his vague comments about age and how saying
           | age is just a number is coping. Do you know what he might be
           | referring to in his life, or of any posts he's made where he
           | talks about that sort of thing?
        
       | JohnMakin wrote:
       | The craziest thing to me is he was still posting up to the very
       | end. I've seen this multiple times in end-stage cancers, my
       | grandfather's pancreatic cancer, he seemed "fine" (other than
       | looking incredibly sick) til the last ~12 hours or so - he was
       | even doing some yard work the day or two before he died. He knew
       | the entire time how much time was left, too. I don't know why I
       | find this so crazy, other than I hope I never have to go through
       | it - you're very aware of what's going on for a long, long time
       | up until the end.
       | 
       | Glad he is no longer suffering.
        
         | JamesSwift wrote:
         | I think thats why cancer is such a vicious illness to have a
         | loved one experience. Its a long drawn-out suffering, with an
         | inevitability at the end of it. The body shuts down gradually
         | as the cancer wins out. For my sister it was the same with
         | 'good days' vs 'bad days'. At first bad days were the minority
         | and over time the ratio changed.
        
         | wood_spirit wrote:
         | Yes I remember the shock to hear that The Hermit, who kinda run
         | The Register forums, died on the same day I had a chat with
         | him. He quietly messaged me to give me some advice that was
         | spot on. I had no idea and there was no hint that he was at the
         | tail end of a protracted illness. They closed the forums and
         | the website continued to change and be less of a community
         | after that.
        
         | khazhoux wrote:
         | > posting up to the very end
         | 
         | 8 days ago he posted a random comment about housing in Austin.
         | So mundane.
         | 
         | Life and death are strange. I'm embarrassed to know that if I
         | had 1 month to live, I'd probably still spend a couple of hours
         | a day watching random youtube videos and commenting on
         | meaningless HN and reddit threads.
        
           | divbzero wrote:
           | > _meaningless HN and reddit threads_
           | 
           | Maybe they aren't so meaningless. Congregating in public
           | forums to exchange ideas is something humans have done for
           | millennia. I should hope that, amid the noise, we find value
           | in the conversations here and leave a bit more enlightened or
           | entertained.
        
         | yawboakye wrote:
         | i've come to believe that we're more terrified of a situation
         | while we're not in it. once in there, and especially when
         | there's no way out, our bodies make the necessary adjustments
         | for the new normal. and soon our minds/being follow. it's often
         | characterized as extraordinary strength by onlookers when in
         | fact the person going through the experience had no way out. in
         | my mother tongue, we have a proverb which roughly translates to
         | 'bravery is situational.' therefore there are no cowards, just
         | people without the necessary conditions to demonstrate bravery.
         | if you're lucky, you find it.
        
           | JohnMakin wrote:
           | putting this in this context was helpful, thank you. I have a
           | few chronic medical conditions that when people learn about
           | it sometimes remark "i dont know how you deal with that" and
           | the answer really is a shrug and "there's no choice." humans
           | are good at adapting for sure
        
             | yawboakye wrote:
             | wishing you much strength! even though there may be no way
             | out, your composure remains a valid demonstration of
             | fortitude, imho. god be with you!
        
         | Jeema101 wrote:
         | It's very strange - some people are lucid and mobile up until
         | nearly the end, and others are 'out of it' for a long time. My
         | mother was mostly delirious and bedridden for the entire last
         | month of her life before dying from cancer.
         | 
         | I suppose if the person is able to find peace with what's
         | happening, then maybe it's better to be lucid, but for others,
         | maybe being 'out of it' is a blessing.
        
       | dole wrote:
       | Cheers and good journey to a bonafide hacker.
        
       | zh3 wrote:
       | Puts me in mind of Randy Pausch's last lecture [0]; only reminded
       | of it by this, which also reminds me I've lost my mother, father
       | in law recently plus close one going through it right now.
       | Horrible disease, hard to find the words sometimes (edit: which
       | he did).
       | 
       | May he rest in peace.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo
        
       | JohnMakin wrote:
       | Been following along with this for a while. Jake seemed like a
       | genuinely good guy. I find it very heartwarming that yesterday
       | his very last HN comment was to post an archive link (which are
       | always the most heroic people on this forum):
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jseliger
        
       | surrTurr wrote:
       | https://jakeseliger.com/2023/08/30/turning-two-lives-into-on...
        
       | cancerboi wrote:
       | Jake was strong. He was so prolific throughout his death process.
       | Truly an inspration, especially to those dying of this disease.
       | 
       | It is a terrible disease. I would not wish it on my worst enemy.
       | The horror, pain and lethargy that you experience... Having
       | chunks of your body cut out periodically... Slowly dying from the
       | inside out... Watching your loved ones fall apart... I can barely
       | put into words how difficult it is. If you know someone who has
       | this disease, reach out to them, they need love and support.
       | 
       | Rest in peace Jake. You will be missed. But more importantly, you
       | will be remembered.
        
         | minimax-touch wrote:
         | And yet... an invaluable opportunity to say goodbye and "get
         | affairs in order". The suffering for all affected, I completely
         | agree, I would not want anyone to go through. But compared to a
         | recent bereavement I experienced where this person just did not
         | come home, having died suddenly, unexpectedly, tragically alone
         | and unseen. Would that I could choose, I think I would like the
         | notice, despite the downsides. Love to all dealing with grief.
        
       | adamredwoods wrote:
       | The work he did with clinical trials and navigating the system
       | was very impressive. We need more people that are willing to push
       | the envelope on cancer trials. I have my own challenges and his
       | work is greatly appreciated.
       | 
       | We still need to beat cancer, all types. Let's keep going where
       | Jake left off.
        
         | adaml_623 wrote:
         | I agree with you in spirit but would suggest that pushing for
         | more funding of schools, universities, basic research, and
         | applied research is something that we should all be doing.
         | Imagine if all the smart people tried to cure cancer instead of
         | working in Wall Street and Adtech
        
           | rottencupcakes wrote:
           | Funding poorly run institutions isn't the way.
           | 
           | Make it appealing for smart grads, like the type that apply
           | for YC.
           | 
           | That involves removing red tape and shutting down the AMA.
        
           | akavi wrote:
           | That's going to be hard to do so long as we continue
           | regarding someone who makes a billion from a new cancer drug
           | as as a price-gouging murderer while regarding someone who
           | makes a billion from starting an adtech company with mere
           | indifference.
        
           | jordanpg wrote:
           | To put a finer point on this, the capitalistic enterprises
           | that many are very excited about and believe will solve
           | problems via the invisible hand, may not not pursue basic
           | research because you can't demonstrate potential profit in it
           | to an investor.
           | 
           | But of course basic research, including all of its false
           | starts, failures, and irrelevant discoveries, are precisely
           | what lays the groundwork for the for-profit enterprises that
           | come later.
        
           | quonn wrote:
           | Think about how difficult it is to make a significant
           | contribution in your particular field of expertise that is
           | not about to be done right now anyway because the time is
           | right. Very difficult indeed.
           | 
           | It is the same with cancer research. Not saying the world
           | can't be better, but science cannot be done faster, probably.
        
             | jaggederest wrote:
             | > Think about how difficult it is to make a significant
             | contribution in your particular field of expertise that is
             | not about to be done right now anyway because the time is
             | right. Very difficult indeed.
             | 
             | The absolute opposite of my experience. Every one of the
             | fields I've gained expertise in over the years indicates to
             | me that more human effort would pay not just dividends but
             | increasing returns. Particularly so with research. The
             | biggest thing I learn when I gain expertise is just exactly
             | how much _we don 't know_.
        
             | wizzwizz4 wrote:
             | > _Think about how difficult it is to make a significant
             | contribution in your particular field of expertise that is
             | not about to be done right now anyway because the time is
             | right._
             | 
             | I independently reinvented my entire field of research _by
             | accident_ , because I didn't know it existed; and I'm
             | pretty sure I did a better job. There are a few puzzle
             | pieces and key insights it probably would've taken me a few
             | years (or decades) to discover, without which I couldn't
             | demonstrate (or, if I'm being honest, _know_ ) the immense
             | superiority of my approach, but I'm pretty sure the
             | majority of the field is obsoleted by the ideas I've had.
             | 
             | Oh, look at me, I'm so clever... right? Good guess, but
             | actually no. When I ask the right questions to my peers
             | (outside the field), they usually propose a similar
             | approach. (The main differences can be attributed to the
             | fact I've thought about this for years, and they've thought
             | about it for minutes: a few of the obvious things don't
             | work, but then things get _elegant_ when you replace them
             | with ones that do.)
             | 
             | That must mean the time's right, then? I did suspect it was
             | this... until I found a few dozen publications by a widely-
             | respected expert, from _half a century ago_ , talking about
             | a (slightly underdeveloped, idiosyncratic) version of the
             | approach like it was common sense, remarking that people
             | were a lot more receptive to this idea than they used to
             | be, but still it was not being adopted.
             | 
             | A minor application of this approach to a different field
             | would _completely_ revolutionise it (even moreso than it
             | does my field). I briefly fantasised about doing that,
             | before dismissing as  "something to investigate later"
             | (i.e. "a childish fantasy I haven't found the holes in
             | yet"). But not only _does_ that application work, it was
             | implemented _and trialled_. The results were published _18
             | years ago_ , in a paper that concludes by confusedly asking
             | why nobody was doing this. After reading the paper (which I
             | found _completely by accident_ while looking for something
             | else), I felt much the same way. (Still nobody is doing it,
             | in case you 're wondering. It's been cited six times - once
             | in its field, two years after publication, and five times
             | in other fields in papers where it isn't really relevant.)
             | 
             | In physics, parts of chemistry, and parts of mathematics,
             | there is room for revolution. I'm not sure any of the
             | softer fields (counting mathematics qua philosophy as soft)
             | are particularly good at being revolutionised. (Economics
             | is particularly bad: nearly every economist knows that
             | economics is wrong, and yet it persists.) And it's not
             | because new ideas are slow to be adopted: at least 10% of
             | my field's practitioners dropped everything to try to solve
             | its Hard Problems with LLMs. (Those I know, I talked out of
             | this, by describing - with non-rigorous theoretical
             | arguments - what they would find. After years of work, the
             | best result I've seen is only slightly better than the
             | bound I predicted.)
             | 
             | I'm sure there's some way to solve this problem, but I
             | don't know it. I wouldn't be surprised if the solution has
             | been identified, written down, published, forgotten,
             | independently reinvented, tested, found to work, published
             | again, ignored...
             | 
             | I don't say this to cast aspersions on science, or the
             | academic system; nor to blame people or institutions for
             | their failings. This problem is well-known. It's not a
             | matter of people being stuck in their ways: if anything,
             | academics are _too_ credulous, too willing to believe that
             | things work which don 't. But I don't think adjusting the
             | "credulity" dial, or the "speed" dial, or the "try novel
             | approaches" dial, is a solution. Science, as it stands,
             | cannot be done faster, because the system doesn't know how.
             | 
             | All I'm saying is, watch out for this. Support people who
             | think they have a better way, check the literature for
             | interesting things (and then confirm them, if you can).
             | Question not whether your current approaches are good, but
             | what they actually _do_ - and ask whether that is really
             | what you want to be doing, or a proxy goal that everybody
             | 's lost sight of.
             | 
             | And if you find yourself along with your peers, dismissing
             | something out-of-hand without having tried it, maybe don't
             | lend your voice to the snubbing crowd. Maybe it's bogus,
             | maybe its proponents are wrong about its merits, but it
             | _might_ have merits. We can 't afford not to know.
        
           | zitterbewegung wrote:
           | Universities have their own problem such as no one attempting
           | to replicate each others work [1] and keep on publishing or
           | they won't get promoted. We should fund replication trials in
           | universities . Also , cancer is not some kind of monolithic
           | problem nearly every cell has some mechanism to mutate so it
           | becomes cancer. For example new cancer techniques come from
           | mRNA research [2] . The problem of solving cancer isn't some
           | monolithic problem that throwing any amount of people will
           | solve and even if they tried they would probably get burned
           | out which is why they work for Wall Street or Adtech in the
           | first place. One of the people that developed the research in
           | mRNA got her career torpedoed to work for John Hopkins
           | University [3]
           | 
           | [1] https://www.science.org/content/article/more-half-high-
           | impac....
           | 
           | [2] https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-
           | blog/2024....
           | 
           | [3] In 1988, Kariko accepted a job at Johns Hopkins
           | University without first informing her lab advisor Suhadolnik
           | of her intention to leave Temple, as recounted in Gregory
           | Zuckerman's 2021 book A Shot to Save the World. Suhadolnik
           | told her that if she went to Johns Hopkins, he would have her
           | deported, and subsequently reported her to U.S. immigration
           | authorities, claiming that she was "illegally" in the United
           | States. In the time it took her to successfully challenge the
           | resulting extradition order, Johns Hopkins withdrew the job
           | offer. Suhadolnik "continued bad-mouthing Kariko, making it
           | impossible for her to get a new position" at other
           | institutions, until she met a researcher at Bethesda Naval
           | Hospital who "had his own difficult history with Suhadolnik".
        
           | jpeloquin wrote:
           | Yes, the general spirit is good but the clinical trial stage
           | is the very end of a long process. The clinical trial the
           | most visible part of getting a new cancer treatment to
           | patients, but the bulk of delay in developing a new treatment
           | is waiting for the basic science. More aggressive clinical
           | trials could save ~ years. More aggressive education and
           | fundamental research could save ~ decades. Can't run a trial
           | on a treatment that doesn't exist yet.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
        
           | renewiltord wrote:
           | The good thing about finance and ad-tech (both of which I've
           | successfully worked in) is that if you're good your clients
           | (if any) are happy to pay you lots. With cancer, if you
           | succeed, you're supposed to give away what you've got since
           | not doing so is going to kill people. If you don't, you are
           | the Great Satan.
           | 
           | Since most people subscribe to the Copenhagen Interpretation
           | of Ethics, I think I'd rather not touch the field at all. Let
           | those who are altruistic be altruistic. If I never create a
           | cure, I need never be considered evil for not giving it away.
        
       | zdw wrote:
       | I actually met Jake in person, more than a decade ago, when I was
       | doing freelance tech support and his parents needed some
       | networking help.
       | 
       | Extremely driven guy, and also super interested in the why of
       | everything I was doing and the debugging process.
       | 
       | Also he had the first kinesis keyboard I ever saw in person,
       | which kind of pushed me down the build your own keyboard route,
       | which really helped later when I was having RSI issues.
       | 
       | He left us far too soon.
        
       | tzury wrote:
       | Devastating.
       | 
       | https://x.com/seligerj/status/1820883556509565121?s=46
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Archive: <https://archive.is/76NRN>
         | 
         | The post in question was shared to HN, though without much
         | comment:
         | 
         | <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41173695>
         | 
         | And the blog entry itself:
         | <https://bessstillman.substack.com/p/how-to-let-go-one-
         | life-e...>
        
       | umvi wrote:
       | I'm sort of afraid to ask since everyone seems to know, but...
       | what is he known for? Usually black bar means a tech giant has
       | died, but absent a wiki page I'm having a hard time finding
       | anything on google about him except the news of his death...
        
         | samatman wrote:
         | Jake joined HN in 2008, and has (had?) 80000 karma and change.
         | 
         | He was one of us. I'm sure if you refresh this thread a few
         | times you'll learn more about him, as it happens I hadn't heard
         | of the man until the thread about him entering hospice, so I'm
         | looking forward to that.
         | 
         | But the first part of this post is enough for a black bar imho.
         | It means that a lot of the community will recognize and know
         | who he is, and miss him now that he's gone. That's enough.
        
           | tivert wrote:
           | >> I'm sort of afraid to ask since everyone seems to know,
           | but... what is he known for?
           | 
           | > Jake joined HN in 2008, and has (had?) 80000 karma and
           | change.
           | 
           | Is that all though? I kind of find it hard to believe he'd be
           | getting this much attention because he has a lot of internet
           | points.
           | 
           | The OP makes it seem like he was some kind of libertarian
           | activist. It looks like he wrote some kind of 50 Shades of
           | Grey-like novel ten years ago.
           | 
           | Is answer that he's a long time blogger known for writing
           | very personal blog posts about dying of cancer?
        
             | Jach wrote:
             | You and the GGP author joined in 2018, so maybe you haven't
             | noticed yet, but the black bar has always very much been an
             | "at the whims of the site operator" thing. If you try to
             | apply any other metric (like "tech giant"), you'll be
             | scratching your head at who gets one and who gets left out.
             | (I don't think you're missing anything, the only thing I
             | know about this person is that according to my browser
             | history I visited his July 2023 post, but I had no
             | recollection of that as to me it was just another in the
             | long line of sad posts about cancer and terrible government
             | barriers in attempts to treat it.)
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Some of that's addressed in my own (currently top) comment on
         | this thread:
         | 
         | <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41203548>
         | 
         | I'll admit I largely know Jake through this site and his
         | blogging, though he's got a broader biography.
         | 
         | His disease progression and commentary on it have been a
         | significant aspect of HN discussion over the past six months or
         | so.
        
       | nailer wrote:
       | @dang can we please unflag this recent submission from Jake?
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40928248
        
       | ETH_start wrote:
       | Two causes that Seliger believed in, that are after my own heart,
       | are:
       | 
       | Removing FDA restrictions, to speed up drug discovery:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40894632
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746156
       | 
       | And removing regulatory restrictions on housing, to build more
       | homes:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41125739
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40942621
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746156
        
       | wayeq wrote:
       | I have an MRI for two suspicious masses on my pancreas and liver
       | tomorrow. Fear for my wife and toddler more than myself.
        
       | rseliger wrote:
       | This is Jake's sister. He was reading and replying to as much as
       | he could up until the end. He loved this community and would in
       | turn be touched by this entire thread. Thank you all who
       | supported him and read and shared his writing. He said it was
       | bittersweet to go out on top.
        
         | appel wrote:
         | I'm so sorry. I only learned about Jake due to his post the
         | other day. I understood this was coming but still felt shock
         | and sadness when I learned just now he has passed. Wishing you
         | much strength.
        
         | urda wrote:
         | I'm sorry for your loss. Thank you for the support.
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Love and condolences from all of us.
        
         | MrGilbert wrote:
         | I am deeply sorry. <3
        
         | keeptrying wrote:
         | My deepest condolences.
         | 
         | Much strength to you.
        
         | nickpeterson wrote:
         | This is heartbreaking, my sincere condolences.
        
       | Dalewyn wrote:
       | I remember exchanging some comments with him here a few months
       | back. My mother passed from gastric cancer back in December, so
       | this hits very close to home even if I never personally knew him.
       | 
       | Death eventually comes for us all, but the sheer pain and agony
       | of witnessing someone pass from cancer is particularly
       | unbearable.
       | 
       | My sincere condolences to his family and friends.
        
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