[HN Gopher] Do quests, not goals
___________________________________________________________________
Do quests, not goals
Author : zdw
Score : 561 points
Date : 2024-08-08 18:02 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.raptitude.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.raptitude.com)
| Multicomp wrote:
| I can't engage with this now. I'm a big GTD user because of my
| ADHD, I don't trust myself so I use the GTD system as a big
| crutch.
|
| I pattern match "Quests" in TFA to "projects" in GTD, and "goals"
| in TFA to "3-5 horizon + someday/maybe list", I don't have time
| to give nuanced thought to this, but I'm posting my hot take that
| this looks like a useful tactical method to help oneself take
| projects off of your someday/maybe lists and work on them, but
| does not fully address how to make the time.
|
| Wait, no, it probably does, but I'm already running over my break
| time so I'm leaving this comment here as an anchor to come back
| and review after work.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| I feel this comment in my soul. If you have any recommendations
| for resources on general project/life management, please feel
| free to share.
| Multicomp wrote:
| In my quest (ahaha) to not spend my days doing life
| management system bingo, I've settled on GTD tried mostly
| flat out the past few years.
|
| However, I have recently looked into Zen To Done, and while I
| see it as Insufficient because I've already put in the GTD
| work, I think it could be a lower-effort potentially-close-
| enough alternative method to getting to the GTD Mind Like
| Water state.
| graypegg wrote:
| Same here! Most of my life is in Omnifocus specifically (GTD-
| focused todo app), and I structure the projects like the quests
| this author mentions. I have to make them gut-feeling boolean
| checks if that makes sense. "Declutter the house" is perfect,
| because I know when it's decluttered: when I feel like it is.
| If I get too specific, there's pretty much 0% chance I'm going
| to honestly complete it with any sort of accuracy to that goal.
|
| Also, hope you had a good day at work!
| borsch wrote:
| I thought I had ADHD but then I got tested and I have high
| functioning autism
| hitsurume wrote:
| What kind of tools / treatments have you used / learned
| afterwards to deal with your ADHD like symtoms?
| borsch wrote:
| I'm actually super organized and can hyperfocus.
|
| I have emotional regulation issues. Abilify (medication),
| yoga, and running. Those keep me centered, reduce my
| (embarrassing) adult tantrums.
|
| Social skills are the hardest part for me. I can read
| emotions but trying to understand people's motivations is
| as complex as tracking bugs for me. It just doesn't come
| naturally.
|
| tl;dr exercise tho
| rocqua wrote:
| I think you're looking to much at the practice, and too little
| at the framing.
|
| The point is not that the structure of a quest works better.
| The point is that the framing of a quest works better. It
| inspires, it acknowledges there will be adversity, and thus
| makes adversity feel like much less of a setback.
| undergod wrote:
| "I don't trust myself" stop saying that to yourself and you
| will trust yourself more, especially if you reinforce that
| feeling with reparative action.
| chankstein38 wrote:
| The timing of this is neat! We are going on a trip in a week~ and
| need to get a bunch of packing done and stuff around the house
| prepped etc. 2 days ago I was picking up a ring for my girlfriend
| and got a "fix it ticket" for something with my car. I have been
| really stressed because it adds a new thing with a timeline.
|
| The one day I was stressing about it and called it a side quest
| to myself and immediately the stress dipped. It'll get done and
| it'll be fine. It needed done anyway and ultimately now I've been
| given a side quest by a randomly encounter. It's not exciting but
| reframing it like this helps reduce my stress and allow me to
| think about the other stuff while still making sure this gets
| done. So good timing on this post!
| lainga wrote:
| Do you think it's a matter of the task being framed as within
| vs. without your agency?
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I think that makes sense! Basically something that is forced
| on me vs something I have chosen to participate in. It could
| be argued whether it fits the latter but reframing can be
| pretty powerful! I think partially it's that I know that it's
| a temporary distraction and that's something I'm used to in
| quest-based games but ultimately I still manage to get the
| temporary small distractions done (and typically have more
| fun with those) while still making progress towards the
| larger quest/goal in this case.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| I had a job once working with bad people and I morphed my day
| into the dndonline I was using to decompress with at night.
|
| Doing the feature work and adding bugs was like breaking
| barrels to find loot. Convincing a co-worker to stop creating
| more bugs was like taking down a minion. Working the politics
| to get rid of the most dangerous coworker was like killing the
| boss (he was a contractor and it seemed that everything he did
| was to damage our team's work)
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I love that! (except the dangerous coworker haha) This trip
| we're going on is much needed and I'm feeling kind of burnt
| out I'm going to try this over the next week and see if it
| helps me maintain focus in the face of my upcoming PTO!
| layer8 wrote:
| Suddenly I understand why D&D never quite grew on me. ;)
| abalaji wrote:
| Sounds similar to the theme system that CGP Grey and Mike
| advocate for in the Cortex podcast.
|
| https://www.themesystem.com/
| rocqua wrote:
| I thought the same based on the title, but the article feels
| different. The theme system is about making a commitment, and
| making failure harder to prevent demoralization, and promote
| adaptibility. Quests, as presented here, still have a
| measurable goal, they are specific. That should never be the
| case with a yearly theme.
| RankingMember wrote:
| Isn't this just GTD (Getting Things Done) with different
| terminology or is my ADHD brain skipping over a more significant
| difference?
| adamc wrote:
| Maybe that depends on your mental definition of quest. I don't
| think of quests as "getting things done" -- they are both more
| significant and less certain than that. Quests are adventures
| where you hope for significant outcomes, but where there are
| many uncertainties. It's OK, perhaps even expected, for a quest
| to have unexpected outcomes. A quest implies less certainty
| about the outcome and more of an expectation about personal
| growth.
|
| A lot of GTD is just drudgery to accomplish. Quests are never
| drudgery. Difficult, maybe, but the journey is probably a
| bigger part of the quest than the outcome.
| 1659447091 wrote:
| Also ADHD (medicated) and I would say terminology matters a
| lot. GTD is it's own distraction loop (for me). I enjoy
| identifying and grouping problem spaces and creating TODO
| actions to solve them. Thus get stuck on steps 1-3(4) and never
| get to the doing because I am doing!
|
| I'm doing the GTD and getting 3-4 of the 5 steps done! Good job
| me. Except it's not, it was just another distraction. When I
| view what needs to be done in terms of "action that does the
| thing", or going on quest* as described here, I am much more
| successful. Meds makes the doing of something productive
| possible, but that something can be anything productive.
|
| Knowing I am GTD by working on the first few steps is getting
| something done. But not really. When I narrow down what I need
| to do into a single main "quest" and/or coming upon a side-
| quest and seeing it as that so I can get back to the main
| thread, I'm taking real action towards it. That doing of
| something is the actual doing of the thing. Taking the journey
| of the quest minus all this busy work of defining what I want
| to get done or what my quest/journey should be, and doing it
| instead.
|
| * I don't actually tell myself I'm on a quest like this article
| seems to suggest, but "quest" is a very good descriptor of my
| process (and may start using it because I personally find it
| fun, and my ADHD like fun)
| JL-Akrasia wrote:
| Also ADHD brain. I'd add that having another person (although
| not always possible) is a great ingredient for a successful
| system to mitigate some of the failure modes of ADHD.
|
| In the cases where I dont have someone helping me, I have
| used chatGPT to build a 2D embodied digital sidekick that
| cares about my goals as much as i can. My Tori provides me
| emotional support, helps me plan, schedule and prioritize
| tasks as well as providing a smart focus session mode with
| phone and web blocklists.
|
| I built it to suit my needs it has allowed me to build a
| successful startup. Its 100% free and if you want you can try
| it at tori.gg
| maxverse wrote:
| The author behind Raptitude, David, has spoken candidly about
| his ADHD, and the block method he's talking about is a
| modified, simpler version of GTD aimed at people who are not
| naturally productive or struggle with more complex systems like
| GTD.
| dominicq wrote:
| I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely
| on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll
| change your approach to it". This thing works because there's a
| community / group session around it, but it would probably still
| work even if you just called goals - goals.
| saulpw wrote:
| Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your
| stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin"
| vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a
| good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as
| much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with
| adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create
| the mindset that the author wants you to have.
| iwontberude wrote:
| Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there
| fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse
| repeat. It's the opposite of fresh and process focused in my
| mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like
| psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and
| the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both
| corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder where those connotations
| of quest come from. Did you in the past play a lot of
| computer role playing games?
|
| Defining work as trips... I wonder... what kind of work do
| you do and are you happy with the fruits of your work?
| npunt wrote:
| A different name offers a different perspective, because of all
| the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve
| are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective
| as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a
| way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem
| differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have.
| This is an extremely common and effective problem solving
| technique.
| jnordwick wrote:
| just bad unreproduceable psychology research. there is zero
| proof of this. we actually have examples going the other way
| though.
|
| the idea that changing the words used can change your ideas
| about something is a weak form of the sapir whorf hypothesis,
| which is close to universally panned in stronger forms and
| highly suspect in weaker forms except in pop psychology.
|
| pinker called a similar idea - changing a word to avoid
| previous negative connotations - the euphemism treadmill:
| from retarded to handicapped to disabled to differetly abled,
| but never changed anybodies views. they just carried them
| over. its because language is a reflection of our inner
| thoughts, not the other way around.
| npunt wrote:
| That's weird because I find value in using this technique
| in both personal and creative contexts, and these kinds of
| reframes are used all the time in therapy, in school, with
| parents talking to their kids, etc.
|
| Perhaps the finer points of those studies are not
| applicable to the topic at hand, which is an individuals
| strategy to gain new perspective on their own problems,
| rather than the nth-order effects of proxy words in
| culture, or researcher's anthropological interpretations
| and comparisons of languages effect on worldviews across
| extremely different cultures.
|
| I get that it's a popular topic on HN to point out the
| replicability crisis in psych research, but the nature of
| the beast of a high level / subjective / messy subject like
| human psychology is that you have to be extremely precise
| about what you're testing and what conclusions you draw, or
| you're at risk of generalizing beyond the data. What you've
| cited has surface level similarity to the topic at hand,
| but is quite different in the specifics.
|
| Plus it doesn't even stand up to the sniff test - language
| impacts us. Words impact us. The subtleties of how language
| is used can have profound effects on how we live our lives.
| Haven't you ever read a beautiful sentence over and over,
| or marinated in an obscure word and all its intricacies?
| This is a common sense proposition.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| I second this. I could have said I "agreed" with this,
| but to "second" this conveys something different. Or
| rather, from my intent it seems to convey X but maybe you
| receive it as Y.
|
| The challenge I find with so much language is the vast
| number of associations we carry with words and how
| connotations can vary so extremely even amongst people
| who "have the same background."
|
| One of the best descriptions I heard for language I think
| was written by James Pennebaker talking about expressive
| writing and how words were basically putting a digital
| categorization onto an analog signal of experience.
|
| Words are not very precise and are often very relative
| approximations that require so much negotiation to reach
| shared meaning. Some will read "quests," as I did, and
| immediately think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail and
| feel a bit goofy and have a hard time saying "I'm going
| on a quest" seriously. Others will feel excited and maybe
| encouraged to see it that way. Others might be annoyed
| because they love the word "goals" and have built their
| brands and careers around the word "goals." At the same
| time, with repeated usage of the word "quests," even my
| emotional reactions to it may change and I start to
| embrace the word with more seriousness.
|
| ---
|
| > just bad unreproduceable psychology research. there is
| zero proof of this. we actually have examples going the
| other way though.
|
| For example, I read something like this and in my head, I
| often reframe it. I read "just bad unreproduceable
| psychology research" as "I do not trust the research you
| are quoting because I think it is not reproduceable." I
| read "there is zero proof of this" as "I have not seen
| any proof of this or do not believe any proof exists." I
| read "we actually have examples going the other way
| though" as "I have seen examples that seem to dispute
| what you are saying."
|
| The way it was originally written, in terms of word
| choice, seemed to describe to me an objective truth in
| the universe, whereas the reframe I applied shows more of
| a relative belief that you may have. That's not to say
| your beliefs are not the capital T truth, but rather for
| me to feel less angry when someone tells me "how the
| world is" and to try to see the world from their
| perspective and learn from it.
| npunt wrote:
| Hey Jim! Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head, the
| difficulty of measuring language's impact on us comes
| from the individuality of response to it. Even minor
| shift in situational context can alter our response, as
| can the measurement window (e.g. you can see yourself
| warming to 'quests' over time), and of course the actual
| precise stimulus (our response to close- vs open-ended
| framing, process vs outcome framing, and the individual's
| cultural knowledge of the specific language used). Thus
| it's very hard to generalize these snapshot-in-time
| personal experiences across populations.
|
| A recent comparison might be SSRI's effects, which are
| proving to be no better than placebo at a population
| level, yet a large body of individual anecdotes show they
| have very positive effects on some. Rather than dismiss
| the anecdotes, we need to acknowledge the difficulty of
| measurement for such a complex & high level topic and be
| curious enough to look at the problem through different
| mechanisms of ascertaining truth like qual analysis,
| logic, and common sense, rather than just accept some
| murky methods and results as the final word.
| dionian wrote:
| I think it's subtly insightful because a goal focuses us on the
| endpoint and a quest focuses us on the journey that we need to
| undertake to get there. But to each his or her own!
| n_plus_1_acc wrote:
| See also: nonviolent communication
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I don't think it's any secret that learning a new language has
| the effect of remapping the neurons of your brain, and we
| already know that we associate a lot with words, not just their
| meanings but what they mean to us.
|
| I don't think there's been sufficient research in this area
| really but I also don't think that's enough in itself to
| downplay it as woo.
|
| If the word "quest" doesn't conjure images in your mind of a
| long winding journey with pitfalls and successes that
| eventually lands you in a place where you've achieved a goal
| and also changed as a person, maybe just use the word in your
| vocabulary that _does_ conjure those images and see if you feel
| the same way.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| It's about changing your mindset and how you approach your
| goal/quest
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Is a type of gamification which could work for some like this
| fella
| soulofmischief wrote:
| This view ignores the importance of, and empirical data around,
| psychosemantics.
|
| Additionally as others touched on, a precise vocabulary or
| nomenclature allows us to be precise about our intentions and
| gives us a framework for making decisions.
|
| "Quest" orients you around the journey instead of the
| destination, which can have many benefits.
|
| It helps to not consider this, or any other technique, as one-
| size-fits-all doctrine. I personally have always considered
| myself very goal-oriented, but this article allowed me to
| understand things from a different angle and realize that I'm
| actually much more process-oriented. This will help me make
| future decisions around projects when planning them out and
| accounting for the need for sustained motivation.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Don't be skeptical. Be inquisitive.
|
| And make that change because I, a stranger on the Internet told
| you to. Also pay for my woo training!
|
| /s
| mihaaly wrote:
| Your interpretation is inaccurate. It was not about calling it
| differently and it will become something else kind of message,
| but to look at the things you do differently so you'd have a
| chance doing differently eventually, doing what is important at
| last.
|
| Some (quite a few actually) need specific tags and title on
| everything so this assign very specific words to matters having
| different composition for everyone works for them, this is a
| typical way of relaying ideas to masses (regrettably). But the
| message is not what words to use but how to do things. We only
| can speak - exchange ideas and information - about things with
| words, unfortunately. Well, some can dance specific ideas and
| todo list to each other, but that is just freak exception. We
| use words for thoughts.
| apitman wrote:
| > Still, the tendency is to wait for a better, less cluttered
| stretch of time to appear before you do that. You will execute
| your great plans as soon as life becomes a little easier and more
| spacious than it is now.
|
| > This is exactly backwards. Forming and achieving aspirations is
| how life gets easier and more spacious.
| feoren wrote:
| Whoever thinks this is good advice has an extremely easy life.
| Most people have literally no slack time at all. You're
| supposed to execute your great plans in the 1 hour per day you
| have after work, commute, taking care of family, and
| occasionally taking care of yourself? The hour in which you are
| deeply exhausted? If that doesn't sound like you,
| congratulations: you have an easy life.
|
| So the real advice is the same as all life advice under the
| hood: just be born into privilege.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Do you really think there's no upward mobility for someone
| not born into privilege?
| feoren wrote:
| A lot less than most people seem to think. By far the best
| predictor of someone's wealth is their parents' wealth. By
| very far. The vast majority of wealth is generational.
|
| But even if you believe in upward mobility, the point is
| that needs to happen _first_ before you possibly have time,
| energy, and money to devote to your passions. It 's not
| backward; if you'd argue "no, succeeding in your passions
| is what _enables_ upward mobility ", then you (A) are
| thinking of a very small subset of highly marketable
| passions, and (B) have identified the catch-22 that makes
| upward mobility so uncommon.
| LordNerevar76 wrote:
| Do you happen to have any studies to back this up? It
| makes sense that parental wealth would be one of the
| strongest predictors of wealth, but I know of at least
| one study that has demonstrated that 79% of millionaires
| did not receive any inheritance from their parents.
|
| Source: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-
| national-stud...
| feoren wrote:
| This Georgetown report is a good place to start, they
| aggregate findings from a lot of different studies:
|
| https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/schooled2lose/
| Jiocus wrote:
| The prediction does not hinge on inheritance (most folks
| manage to start their own lives, careers and families
| well before their parents pass), but on the upbringing,
| milieu and economic as well as social capital available.
|
| "You're likely to stay in the social class you were born
| into" - is basically what the predictor means.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| You're right and I agree with what you're saying here.
| ksd482 wrote:
| as I was reading the article I was thinking "Oh, you mean
| labeling your goals differently will cause you to think about
| them differently and hence, will cause you to plan differently".
| That is, there would be something _tangible_ that would be
| different.
|
| So I tuned in to learn more about the technique but I was
| disappointed to learn that there's nothing more to it at least in
| the article.
|
| It just suggests to re-label your goals differently and think of
| them as "quests", but it doesn't mention anything more.
|
| I really want to learn how to make my chores and boring goals fun
| so that I can go about them doing them. Can anyone please shed
| some light on this?
|
| I have tried to gamify my work but it hasn't worked for me.
| moneil971 wrote:
| I'm not sure the article fully gets there (he's clearly driving
| business for his own course), but the general idea is that you
| don't set a "goal" of a thing you hope to accomplish - you
| should be fully envisioning who that future you will be - and
| what they do every day...then start doing that. So the quest is
| about who you want to become, while the goal is just an
| aspiration without a real vision.
| RHSman2 wrote:
| It has to be authentic in my experience. The naming doesn't
| matter. It's the emotional response it creates.
|
| Procrastination = lazy Or Procrastination = in preparation
| seb1204 wrote:
| At uni I lived with a friend who was doing his doctor of
| biology. When he got home he went like 200% on all his chores
| and within a short amount of time he was sitting in front of
| the TV having a beer. Being very efficient with the boring
| stuff can help to get it over with. I think about him a lot
| when it takes me 2 hours in the morning for lunch boxes, dog
| and getting ready myself.
| carbine wrote:
| Sometimes it can be as simple as asking yourself, "what if this
| were fun?" What would have to happen?
|
| Well, I'd have to have a different attitude and find something
| I enjoy about it, for starters. Listening to an extremely
| engaging podcast or audiobook while I do chores, for example,
| helps a lot. Or challenging myself to find the humor in a
| situation.
|
| But those are coping mechanisms for dealing with necessary but
| annoying tasks. Work related quests require a different
| approach -- I guess my first question of something feels like a
| miserable grind is, "is this really the thing I want to be
| doing with my life?" Sometimes no amount of reframing a job
| will make it tolerable if it's just not your thing.
| jessetemp wrote:
| I think what's going on behind the verbal sleight of hand here,
| is focusing on the process (quest) instead of the outcome (goal).
| It's the difference between doing a thing and having done a
| thing. I might enjoy having written a book, but I don't think I
| would enjoy writing a book. And I don't think calling it a quest
| instead of a goal would make much difference
| fizlebit wrote:
| It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I
| imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a
| game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games.
| But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented
| and I'm more process oriented. I see every day spent working
| toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he
| tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended
| up not ever achieving them because of it.
|
| As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It's a big, big
| task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the
| engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it
| back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems
| almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end
| of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do.
|
| I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I've heard
| anecdotally.
| mcdow wrote:
| Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible
| if you don't like running. Inevitable if you like running.
|
| Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do
| all "quests" now. If you enjoy the process, anything is
| possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process.
|
| I've extended it to several areas I didn't find very fun
| prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular.
|
| I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1].
| Warning, it's quite verbose and not the best. There's a
| TL;DR.
|
| [1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-
| foreign-l...
| sebg wrote:
| Love this line from your post "The marathon is simply an
| exhibition of the labor it took to achieve it, it is not
| the goal in and of itself."
| samstave wrote:
| This is the joy of my martial arts path as well.
|
| In my experience, (This is a Mechanical Elves take on it (I
| studied Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Small Circle,
| and my Professor Larry Cary said to me one session:
|
| " _The movements I am teaching you awaken dormant brain
| circuitry. When you do these movements, all the old Masters
| are with you_ "
|
| That was the moment it really clicked for me.
|
| Later, Soke Hatsumi was quoted in the infamous "Understand?
| Good. Play!" book -- my favorite quote:
|
| " _I am teaching you to wield a sword, even if you have no
| arms!_ "
|
| --
|
| The reason is that these two statements allowed me to see
| what the true nature of my Joy of Movement truely was: I
| was able to see the Principles of Movement flow through me
| - (we call this The Mode) - and it was that feeling that
| was being fully present is what I sought and I feel thats
| the nature of Mastery of _any_ craft.
|
| ---
|
| @sebg:
|
| You'd really love this Scientest's interview:
|
| " _Things like 'YOU' - that took the Universe Billions of
| years to generate 'YOU' - you have a lot of Time embedded
| in you..."_
|
| https://youtu.be/6o8OFTrSTpk?t=7832
|
| Fn prphetic. This Scientists entire podcast and more is
| worth Time.
|
| ---
|
| I wrote this Haiku a long while back:
|
| _Movement and Measure_
|
| _All is One, flowing through Time._
|
| _Another yourself._
| jfoutz wrote:
| I've run a few marathons. I'm not fast. I haven't done it
| in a while. But I think I'd like to do it again. You're not
| wrong, I'm going to quibble a bit because I have a slightly
| different perspective that might be helpful. First, a
| little context. For me a marathon is all about training.
| That first day it might only be 50 steps. A few weeks or
| months in, I can go a mile or 3. Then it's just awful.
| Every little weak tendon and muscle is crying out. Walk for
| a bit then get back to running. After the early bit, I get
| 3-4 miles into a run, then have to decide, 3-4 miles back
| home or 6 to just finish the run. I think that's the
| critical point. am I just going to walk home? That's an
| option. but I've gone so far. Walk a lot and just finish
| the damn route. And that's kind of the point. A lot of
| comments are arguing about semantics, and I get that. But
| the point is just get through the bullshit however you can.
| It's ok to kind of hobble along. Stop by the bar and have a
| beer or three and make it home. There's no shame in that.
| Finishing the loop, however you can, is still finishing the
| loop.
|
| Me, personally, getting past that critical point, embracing
| the suck. That's kinda the point. I hit that miserable
| point. I keep moving forward however I can. Whatever stupid
| bullshit comes up, you (I) just get through it. Somehow. it
| doesn't matter how. And then there's a bit of a release.
| Maybe just glide through the last few miles. Maybe rub some
| dirt on it and walk home. It doesn't really matter because
| I complete the loop. I sort of shed the vision of what it
| might be, and learn what it really is. And that's super
| helpful.
|
| Mark Twain wrote life on the Mississippi, and wrote a lot
| about how cool it would be to be a riverboat pilot. The
| beautiful pink sky, the ripples on the water. And there's
| sort of a heartbreaking transition when he learns the pink
| sky means a storm is coming. the ripples mean there's a
| sandbar. In his unknowing dream, everything he loved about
| it was a disaster waiting to strike. He learned in his own
| way.
|
| For me, there's a joy and romance to running a marathon
| that was completely unlike what I thought it was before I
| started.
|
| So anyway, maybe the subtle shift from goal to quest is
| enough to help some people embrace the suck. Nothing is
| what you think it is without doing it. there are parts that
| are awful. if you can get through it, you'll get nothing
| you hoped for. but maybe the change of perspective is
| enough.
| mcdow wrote:
| I honestly don't disagree with you. I too experience "the
| suck". But the good parts of runs make the suck worth it.
| It's just a roll of the dice. You never know if it's
| gonna suck.
|
| Also I feel you on the taking breaks part. There's no
| rules. Nothing beats sitting on the curb eating some junk
| and drinking some Gatorade mid-run.
| jfoutz wrote:
| sitting on the curb drinking gatorade is what it's all
| about. you, or I, just sort of accept that it's
| miserable. but survivable. It's a thing we can do.
|
| my experience anyway. your milage may vary.
| carbine wrote:
| beautifully said
| necovek wrote:
| As a counter point, I've also seen plenty people too focused
| on doing every little step up to some imagined standards that
| they never get to complete anything -- basically, life
| intervenes and they got to leave with nothing really done at
| all.
|
| I am personally goal motivated: I like achieving and building
| things (I enjoy the process in as much as I got the better of
| it :)). When things are complex, I come up with smaller goals
| that are on the path to getting the big thing done, all the
| while thinking how these things fit together.
|
| This has made me great at coming up with iterative steps
| where each step brings value: even if I stop at any one
| point, I have done something useful.
|
| In your example, I would probably dismantle the car enough to
| get the engine out and rebuilt and back in, and then go back
| to it sometime in the future to work on other stuff, all the
| while keeping a functioning car as I am rebuilding it.
| h0l0cube wrote:
| > This has made me great at coming up with iterative steps
| where each step brings value: even if I stop at any one
| point, I have done something useful.
|
| This is really just getting caught up on semantics, and
| what you've described is essentially the same as a 'quest
| mindset'. The goal vs quest mindsets are basically
| waterfall vs (lowercase a) agile mindsets. In the former
| you risk building something you don't want or under-
| allocate resources to achieving it, in the latter, you've
| realized that you've misestimated what the final outcome
| will be or should be, and know that there will be a
| discovery process alongside development.
|
| > basically, life intervenes and they got to leave with
| nothing really done at all.
|
| And perhaps there is no sense in that journey being
| 'complete' as there's always some way to improve things.
| But I think the caution here on the 'quest' mindset, is to
| still have something functional early on - "Release early,
| and release often" as it were. But this caution also holds
| for the 'goal' mindset, perhaps moreso, as there's a higher
| risk of misunderstanding what 'complete' looks like, or all
| the side-'goals' you never anticipated, and becoming
| dismayed when you've found yourself settling in on a
| _loong_ quest anyway.
| ocodo wrote:
| > I've also seen plenty people too focused on doing every
| little step up to some imagined standards that they never
| get to complete anything
|
| This is the true definition of the Yak Shave.
| mklepaczewski wrote:
| It's not yak shaving. Yak shaving is (possibly) recursive
| explosion of seemingly unrelated tasks which are required
| to complete the original task. The comment fits
| description of a maladaptive perfectionism.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| Not at all. Yak shaving is getting caught up in all the
| surrounding, sometimes supporting tasks, so you never get
| to the main task.
|
| Yak shaving is spending time finding the ultimate editor,
| choosing between syntax highlighters and schemes,
| configuring git, et c., so you never actually get around
| to write any code. That is different from wrenching the
| last nanosecond of optimisation from some not
| particularly central part of the code.
| EGreg wrote:
| Have any of you here considered that you simply need help?
| More people working alongside you? Being able to form a
| structure (such as a company or decentralized DAO) with
| responsibilities?
|
| In my experience, when you are procrastinating, that's your
| subconscious telling you that you need help. Maybe you don't
| have the skills, or the time, to undertake the thing. Your
| developer brain says it'll take 1 hour and it takes 2 days.
|
| https://qbix.com/blog/2016/11/17/properly-valuing-
| contributi...
| Redster wrote:
| You are right on! Teamwork outside of paid work is
| underrated. So many solo projects/goals/quests stall when a
| person with a different skill set could've made all the
| difference and helped bring it to completion. I think in-
| person community is best for this, although Internet
| strangers can certainly become friends and do fun projects
| together.
| treflop wrote:
| Personally I feel like some things that have clear chunks of
| work are best goal-oriented like "reading through this book"
| while nebulous goals require a process-oriented method of
| thinking.
|
| That said, I don't think you should really worry about that
| distinction.
|
| My method of getting things done is a 3 step:
|
| 1. Constant checking in on whether I am happy at my progress.
| If I am, keep doing what I'm doing.
|
| 2. If I'm not, try a completely different approach entirely.
| Abandon the old approach for a week or however long is
| reasonable.
|
| 3. If I fail to improve or I failed to actually put in place
| the different approach (saying and doing are different
| things), I need a shock to the system. Moving to a brand new
| city-kind-of-shock. Throwing away half your belongings-kind-
| of-shock.
|
| The key is frequently checking if you are happy with progress
| and realizing that if you are not, you need a change. And you
| need to be willing to try changes constantly.
| samvher wrote:
| "...it's like this. Sometimes, when you've a very long street
| ahead of you, you think how terribly long it is and feel sure
| you'll never get it swept. And then you start to hurry. You
| work faster and faster and every time you look up there seems
| to be just as much left to sweep as before, and you try even
| harder, and you panic, and in the end you're out of breath
| and have to stop--and still the street stretches away in
| front of you. That's not the way to do it.
|
| You must never think of the whole street at once, understand?
| You must only concentrate on the next step, the next breath,
| the next stroke of the broom, and the next, and the next.
| Nothing else.
|
| That way you enjoy your work, which is important, because
| then you make a good job of it. And that's how it ought to
| be.
|
| And all at once, before you know it, you find you've swept
| the whole street clean, bit by bit. what's more, you aren't
| out of breath. That's important, too..." -- Michael Ende,
| Momo
| cryptonector wrote:
| I think of it as scaling a mountain. When you're at the
| base the mountain looks imposing and out of reach. As you
| begin the climb it's hard work and you don't know your way
| around and feel lost, and every time you look up the
| mountain remains as imposing as before. But then you begin
| to make progress, and the mountain begins to seem smaller.
| Now you can finish the climb because it doesn't seem like
| that much more work -- you've done the truly hard part,
| which was: getting started.
|
| Admittedly when I'm at the base I take my time getting
| started. But once I'm started, I can power through.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| Hand excavating a couple tens of feet of 5 ft deep trenches
| will quickly teach you this lesson.
| mlhpdx wrote:
| Yes. Personally, I enjoy the incremental problem solving
| perhaps too much -- getting the last 10% of a project done
| before moving to the next is a challenge.
|
| That said, and being aware of this trait, I started something
| that is a huge project (building a sail boat) for which I was
| completely unprepared (no experience, no tools). Each step
| was a challenge, but until the quest was finished meant
| nothing. Those last few steps were torture for me but getting
| it in the water and sailing it for the first time (and
| second, etc.) was amazing.
|
| It's the same thrill when my software gets used, and I now
| have renewed motivation to get some projects across the
| finish line and in people's hands.
|
| Two years well spent.
| bravetraveler wrote:
| There's a lot of truth to what you say. Some of my favorite
| people are process oriented!
|
| I'm very, very goal oriented. I'll eagerly sacrifice process
| to get towards a goal. I find this works well with my work,
| SRE. Testing and redefining processes :D
|
| This distinction really helps me realize how/why I get
| overwhelmed with projects of a certain size and go towards
| bisection
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Interesting. As a platform engineer, practically everything
| I do at work has wide reaching implications so I really
| have no choice but to figure out how to break projects down
| into safe chunks that inevitably makes the project bigger
| and longer to complete. But those chunks grant
| verifiability and stability all the way through. Being a
| platform eng has taught me how to be process oriented.
| taylodl wrote:
| Is this the thinking behind the statement it's the journey,
| not the destination? Enjoy the journey because as soon as you
| reach your destination, you're going to embark on another
| journey!
| m3kw9 wrote:
| While you are right, a different way to look at a same thing
| can produce breakthroughs, like exercise, you just exercise
| right? But if you gamify it, it can make it easier to endure
| and repeat
| meiraleal wrote:
| > But if you gamify it, it can make it easier to endure and
| repeat
|
| Gamifying it doesn't do much if you don't accept playing the
| game and continuing when you lose.
| 42lux wrote:
| That's the problem we have in most companies now: everyone
| loves the outcome, but not many love the work.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| Well if it was fun, someone would do it for free, and then I
| wouldn't get paid. I only work to live.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| If you won't enjoy writing a book you won't write a book and
| you'll never taste the enjoyment of having written a book
| egypturnash wrote:
| Douglas Adams (author of _The Hitch-Hiker 's Guide To The
| Galaxy_) was a best-selling author who was infamous for
| hating to write.
| slothtrop wrote:
| He was infamous for procrastinating.
| nxicvyvy wrote:
| I don't think so.
|
| Theyre differentiating goals from quests, where goals are daily
| minutia, get a haircut, something you'd suggest you need to do
| this week, where as quests are bigger loftier goals, what would
| you do in the next two years? Learn to fly a plane.
|
| The quests are still goals they just want to categorise it
| apart from meaningless low value goals.
|
| Another part of it seems to be the approach, breaking it down
| into blocks and creating a plan to achieve it in your currently
| available time instead of putting it off.
| cjf101 wrote:
| Another way I've encountered this is performance vs results.
| Performance is the things you do that you believe will lead to
| results. Results aren't always in your control (especially in
| competitive environments), but performance absolutely is. It's
| a lot easier to feel you are getting somewhere when you focus
| on things that you control.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| > And I don't think calling it a quest instead of a goal would
| make much difference
|
| Well, I of course haven't done it yet, but as one of those
| people who (stupidly, in a "the definition of insanity is doing
| things the same way and expecting a different outcome"-sort-of-
| way) makes New Year's Resolutions every year, and gets mildly
| depressed when I fail to reach them, there is something about
| this blog post that I loved and really clicked with me.
|
| There are 3 reasons I like the framing of quest vs goals:
|
| 1. As you say, it focuses on the process instead of the
| outcome. I've of course known that this is how you're supposed
| to achieve goals (step-by-step I'd say), but something about
| the word "quest" makes it more real to me, and maybe even more
| desirable. I think perhaps that even though there are tons of
| painful things that happen during a "quest", they seem more
| connected with a "righteous outcome", vs. the laundry list of
| steps that I think of for most of the "goals" I want to attain.
|
| 2. I don't deal with unexpected curve balls well, and one
| reason I fail to reach a lot of my goals is I get dejected when
| things don't go according to plan. But I think the framing of
| "quest", where basically curve balls are 90% of what happens,
| makes it easier in my mind. It's like I'm actually planning and
| expecting the unexpected, instead of getting annoyed when the
| unexpected pops up. I really like it.
|
| 3. Finally, and though it may seem trivial or silly, the
| visualization of a "quest" for me is just something that seems,
| well, more adventurous than drudgery.
|
| In any case, this is one of the first HN posts on self-
| improvement that I really liked and clicked with me (usually I
| roll my eyes at what feels like "survivorship bias" advice).
| I'll see how it goes.
| floxy wrote:
| >as one of those people who makes New Year's Resolutions
| every year, and gets mildly depressed when I fail to reach
| them...
|
| This statement made me think of the book: One Small Step Can
| Change Your Life
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Small-Step-Change-Your-
| Life/dp/076118...
|
| ...it is written by a psychiatrist about the practice of
| Kaizen, where you take absurdly small steps to reach your
| goals. So small that you can't fail. And these build on
| themselves. He covers your exact case. People who make New
| Year's resolutions that fail after a month or two. One
| example was a woman who needed to get exercise for health
| reasons. Previous exercise attempts have failed. So the
| doctor prescribes her to march in-place for 60 seconds every
| day, when she was normally watching TV. Anyway, it snowballs,
| as she realizes she can do more and more, and then starts to
| enjoy it. It is a short, inexpensive, easy read that I
| recommend.
| smeej wrote:
| I think I slip into this mode automatically. As soon as I think
| of a "goal," I immediately ask myself what kinds of habits a
| person who accomplished that goal would likely have. Then I
| find the lowest possible resistance way to have that habit from
| this day forward.
|
| Like, say I want to hike/climb some specific set of mountains.
| Great. What kinds of habits does a person who hikes all those
| mountains have? Well, they're probably someone who exercises
| every day. I can, as of today, become "someone who exercises
| every day, no matter what," if I set my requirement as "only
| one minute per day."
|
| Habits grow on their own. I don't think it's really necessary
| to stage them. Once you see yourself as a certain kind of
| person, you just become that kind of person. And before you
| know it, since you're just like a person who hikes all those
| mountains, you end up being someone who has hiked all the
| mountains.
|
| It's also the only effective way I've found to deal with my
| fear of success when it comes to big goals. I don't set them. I
| just decide to become the kind of person who _would_ accomplish
| them, and by then, it doesn 't feel like some impressive
| accomplishment. It just feels like a normal thing someone like
| me would do.
| screwt wrote:
| It's great that you slip into this mode automatically.
|
| For me, the reframing of "goal" to "quest" helps enormously
| with this change of mode. A "goal" is something I hope/want
| to achieve in future - but today I'm busy with day-to-day
| chores etc. A "quest" however is something you are _on_. So
| if I 'm _on a quest_ to do X, of course I need to do
| something toward it every day.
| smeej wrote:
| For some reason I have a hard time with "quest" because it
| seems to have an endpoint. I'm not "on a quest to hike all
| the mountains." I'm just the kind of person for whom that
| kind of thing eventually happens because it's normal.
|
| It very well might be my "fear of success" issue though. I
| don't have a fear of being different than I was before.
| That slips in under "part of the normal process of growth
| and change."
|
| But being a person who's on a quest? Who might eventually
| achieve the thing? That lands differently, and in a way
| that prevents me from actually doing it.
|
| I think my successes have to slide in under the radar so I
| don't sabotage them.
| tshaddox wrote:
| "Quest" is an odd word choice for making this point. To me
| "quest" very strongly implies having a clear singular goal,
| whereas e.g. "journey" does not necessarily imply having any
| particular goal in mind.
| directevolve wrote:
| I think it's reverse causation. Motivating and meaningful
| activities feel like quests. Boring but necessary activities
| that we procrastinate on make us reach for "goal-setting" as a
| cure for the procrastination.
|
| Wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow feel intrinsic
| motivation and meaning for the boring stuff too, so that even
| cleaning the toilet felt like part of a grand adventure?
| nutanc wrote:
| Talking in LLM parlance, you are put in a different context in
| the embedding space.
| roshankhan28 wrote:
| i remember my teacher used to say, 'dont look up untill you are
| done'. back then i felt really annoyed by this, but now i get
| it.
| corygiltner wrote:
| I am one who would love to have written a book (goal) and I
| don't love writing (quest). I think writers love the act of
| writing and that's how they get to the goal of writing a book.
| sorokod wrote:
| An excellent observation, in extreme cases the quest can
| completely superceed the goal. The movie "Memento" comes to
| mind.
| atoav wrote:
| But you need to think farther. Let's use writing a book as a
| stand in for other things, e.g. being able to code, playing an
| instrument, mastering embedded electronics programming, you
| name it:
|
| The person who enjoys1 writing a book _and_ wants to finish
| them will likely become better at writing books than the person
| who just wrote a book to cross it off their bucket list.
|
| There is also people who enjoy the process of writing so much,
| that the outcome literally doesn't matter anymore and they
| don't have any ambition to finish anything.
|
| In reality most people who achieve great things have both a
| way/process/quest and many destinations/outcomes/goals along
| the way and the two things have to be somewhat in balance. Thst
| balance can differ for different people.
|
| When people say you should focus on the way, not on the
| destination what they mean is: Don't be the person who just
| writes a book to cross it off the bucket list, while hating
| every second of the process and learning nothing from having
| done it.
|
| 1: The word "enjoy" doesn't have to mean they feel good doing
| it, it just means there is an urge to do this versus something
| else
| mettamage wrote:
| I also think it's about the whimsicality of it. Focusing on the
| process sounds so rational and cognitive. The issue is that it
| is devoid of feeling. A quest makes me feel something!
| Adventure! Let's go! There'll be dragons, there'll be riches
| and there'll be friendship! I need to seek out like minded
| individuals, I need to _conquer_ my challenges, I need to go
| for the rewards that make me feel eternally rich!
|
| That's what I _feel_ when I think about a quest. Sure, you
| could say it 's all good advice too, but that's just rational.
| Emotions move me, thoughts move me only a little. If I can get
| that advice (conquer challenges, seek peers/mentors, go for
| what I want) by thinking about it emotionally that's much more
| powerful than thinking about it rationally.
|
| The rational understanding != the emotional understanding
| simonask wrote:
| Yeah, and also a quest seems like something that might be
| different every time, where a process is a formalized cookie-
| cutter pipeline, or at least that is what people associate
| with it in the context of software development.
|
| When each thing you do is a unique journey, that's exciting.
| There may be obstacles to overcome, there may be learning
| opportunities, there may be empowerment in making your own
| decisions along the way.
|
| Unfortunately this mindset does not satisfy the incessant
| (but futile) need for predictability that most managers have.
| wseqyrku wrote:
| It's because you ain't that guy. Ideas are in the air and
| theoretically they will eventually happen, the question is are
| you going to be that guy or you'd rather watch someone else
| make it happen.
| Sharlin wrote:
| I just can't wait for companies to rebrand "sprints" to
| "quests" and "projects" to "campaigns". Story points naturally
| convert to experience points. Crunch time death march could
| then be "final boss fight".
| jameshart wrote:
| Fighting bosses is frowned upon
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| "Campaigns" would be a nice convergence of "Games borrowing
| military terms" and "programmers borrowing military terms".
|
| I'm on my way to prosecute a war against bugs, a march to the
| sea if you will. And the CI is my artillery!
| patrickmay wrote:
| March to the C?
|
| I'll see myself out.
| djeastm wrote:
| >I might enjoy having written a book, but I don't think I would
| enjoy writing a book.
|
| Reminds me of the saying "A classic novel is one that I'd like
| to have read, but don't want to read"
| slothtrop wrote:
| > I might enjoy having written a book
|
| It's cheap and short-lived satisfaction. Any seasoned author is
| not going to feel good if they haven't been working at
| something new for awhile. We might project that it would make
| us feel good in terms of projecting an identity (for
| validation), but the rules are different when operating under
| imagination which necessarily suggests a divergence from the
| current reality, where you might not get much validation either
| from yourself or others (because you don't do anything)
| ctenb wrote:
| I think that another aspect of this verbal difference is that
| quests are meaningful because they inherently possess some
| level of difficulty and adventure. Taking on a quest means that
| you have a mindset with room for stumbling and getting back up
| and that you will eventually overcome. Focussing on a goal may
| sooner lead to frustration and giving up.
| veunes wrote:
| This approach can make the journey itself as valuable as the
| destination.
| jimbokun wrote:
| So the verbal sleight of hand is working as intended.
|
| If you are not going to enjoy the process of writing a book,
| only the outcome of having written a book, chances are writing
| a book isn't a good use of your time.
| veunes wrote:
| Enjoying the process and enjoying the outcome... For me the
| terminology doesn't change the experience
| halfcat wrote:
| It's not sleight of hand.
|
| Goals (outcomes) are useful, but never fully within your
| control.
|
| A quest (effort, basically) is within your control.
|
| One should focus on the things they control (mindset, process,
| effort).
| B-Con wrote:
| This reminds me of the "systems vs goals" mentality, which
| emphasizes focusing on having a good systematic process for the
| journey rather than fixating on specific outcomes.
|
| Some prior discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643
|
| Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) was a huge proponent of
| it and he exposed me to the concept in my mid 20s. It heavily
| resonated with me and fundamentally changed my outlook on several
| areas of life.
|
| This specific framing of Quests vs Goals seems a bit more like a
| change in framing your perspective, but I see some similar
| concepts, eg:
|
| > You don't just get the novel started, you become a writer. You
| don't just declutter the house, you get your house in order.
| throwaway29812 wrote:
| > Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo)
|
| Apropo of nothing his book "How to Fail at Almost Everything
| and Still Win Big" was excellent, I remember seeing when he
| first joined Twitter. I was one of his first few followers,
| even said "welcome" and he said "thanks".
|
| Then he got divorced and angry and red pilled. Happens far too
| often..
| highfrequency wrote:
| I've always found it interesting that when people encounter
| challenges and roadblocks when playing a game like Dungeons and
| Dragons, they are energized and sometimes even relieved the game
| is not too easy. But when encountering setbacks in work the
| default is to get frustrated.
|
| I'm pretty sure it's not the _type_ of challenge that differs. In
| DnD a lot of the challenges are logistical in nature or some kind
| of interpersonal conflict.
|
| My take is that the main difference is perceived risk / perceived
| high stakes. In a game you are in a circle of safety, so you
| don't get as stressed about roadblocks - whereas if you perceive
| negative consequences for failing to reach a goal in real life,
| then any obstacle looks like a survival threat and the anxiety
| about failing distracts from fully engaging with the challenge.
| As an example outside of work: if you're playing DnD and the DM
| says: "the bartender gives you a rude look" you are intrigued and
| curious. If a waiter in real life gives you a rude look, most of
| our brain's will at least temporarily go into ego threat mode and
| fall into a default of freezing, leaving or arguing back. We will
| be distracted, bothered, and generally the opposite of open-
| minded and curious. My point is not whether these are ideal
| responses but to note _how differently_ our brains respond in a
| situation where there is actually minimal risk, but our brain
| perceives high risk because of outdated programming. Another
| example in the other direction: people can easily start taking
| games _too seriously_ and become ego-attached to the goal, and
| the same brain response occurs. These extreme examples strongly
| suggest that it is the _perceived threat_ rather than actual
| threat that drive our responses, and perception can often be very
| out of whack with reality and inhibit effective problem solving.
|
| For most people in most work challenges, the actual survival
| threat from obstacles is small. Our brains massively
| overexaggerate it because we evolved in a context where most
| problems (especially social ones) actually _were_ life-
| threatening. I would even say that in cases where survival (or
| your income) _is_ threatened by an obstacle, downregulating the
| fear /threat response will usually improve your chances of
| finding a solution. Negative emotions narrow attention, draw us
| inward and prevent both mental flexibility and engagement with
| the world, which make solving difficult problems much harder.
|
| To summarize: given how much more inherently motivating it is to
| work on challenges that are _similar in nature_ to the ones we
| procrastinate on in life, it seems worthwhile to try to
| downregulate our evolved fear /threat response when encountering
| obstacles.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| The difference is, in games like DnD the risk is effectively
| zero because you're dedicating time and resources to the game
| for your enrichment
|
| In all other cases it's a challenge that you don't want, and
| impedes time and resources for desired enriching activities
|
| So the former is growth, the latter is stagnation
| isaacremuant wrote:
| You're being either naive or disingenuous.
|
| If you die or fail in DnD, it just makes up for a story,
| there's no actual impact to your life, no consequence.
|
| Setbacks at work could absolutely have a real consequence.
| Indirectly making it harder to get a promotion, bonus, better
| QoL at work, etc.
|
| I agree that one should be used to challenges and avoid
| becoming stressed due to work but saying "you get excited when
| you encounter a problem in a game" is just ridiculous. The game
| is designed to tweak that obstacle to be just enough and you
| can always turn it off and go back to your life.
|
| A problem in your actual life is not the same. Life is not a
| game.
| mym1990 wrote:
| For many, it depends what kind of setback it is. A technical
| problem can be intriguing and challenging in a good way. People
| problems or red tapey stuff can be frustrating(or vice versa
| depending on roles).
| jamesgreenleaf wrote:
| I wonder how much of it has to do with the reward. In D&D you
| get experience points, gain levels, get powerful magic items,
| etc. There is generally immediate positive feedback when you
| accomplish a goal or overcome an obstacle in the game world.
| But in real life, most times the only reward is that the
| obstacle has been cleared.
| highfrequency wrote:
| Agree that games design for immediate feedback and visual,
| tangible rewards. I think this is a big part of it.
| seb1204 wrote:
| In the work environment this is where talking and praising
| becomes important again in my opinion. Acknowledgement of
| achievements, even very small ones by colleagues, managers
| etc has its purpose.
| johndevor wrote:
| How to down regulate the threat response?
| mihaaly wrote:
| I am a weird person and for me thinking about the ultimate
| outcome (death) helps. Cannot be avoided, only procrastinated,
| but not by much and with great cost. Also the realization of my
| insignificance helps too. If I was not here, I was not born, if
| I did not turn that corner in my life, all the people in my
| surroundings would do very very similarly. Not the same but
| likely along the same trajectory. Similar good, similar bad.
| Have friends, child, colleague, husband. Someone was achieving
| in my place what I achieved. There are rare examples in history
| for exceptions, but even if my unique gift for humanity
| achievement was missing, the humanity was doing well anyway (we
| surely had one off people like Einstein or Taylor Swift - hehe
| - wasted yet here we are, we cope without that some way we call
| our precious life).
|
| No point tiptoing around my precious life because it is so
| boringly ordinary that it exists in the billions. It is
| fragile, a little miracle in fact, so better not waste it by
| taking too big risks but not risking it by putting it into a
| protective case and put in a guarded corner for show either.
| Risk it, so not to risking it becoming too insignificant.
| Insignificant not for the crowds and social media outlets but
| for yourself! Bad things will hapen to cautious and not that
| cautious people alike. At least at and around the end. Better
| not wasting the time until then by putting us in a comfort
| cage.
|
| Nothing new was said here actually, with different words this
| was told a million times perhaps, yet, it needs to be repeated.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > For most people in most work challenges, the actual survival
| threat from obstacles is small.
|
| It's all fun and games until someone from HR reaches out to you
| for "a quick call".
| al_borland wrote:
| After playing too much Zelda, I had the thought to make a todo
| app that was organized by Main Story and Side Quests.
|
| The Main Story section would be projects, and those bigger more
| aspersions goals to move the story of life forward. Side Quests
| would be those little things along the way, that are usually one
| and done.
|
| I ended up realizing building the app would really just be
| procrastination, and simply make a couple Lists in Apple
| Reminders for Main Story and Side Quests. Good enough.
|
| Functionally, but I guess it's not much different than Projects
| and Random, but I find it slightly more assuming.
| komali2 wrote:
| Some people might still find such an app useful. Framing
| problems in different ways is sometimes all it takes. A lot of
| apps could simply be spreadsheets, but it's still a bajillion
| dollar market.
| 727564797069706 wrote:
| This is such a simple distinction, yet totally transforming and
| invigorating!
|
| I appreciate a lot if people share such insights.
| sim7c00 wrote:
| this is reworded alan watts. life is like music, its not all
| about the final chrashing chord, so enjoy the journey. thats with
| all things, but not everyone flows like that. some people enjoy
| results and are ok being frustrated getting there. personally, i
| think that is physically unhealthy. you might have the mental
| fortitude to push on forever, but physiology is affected by
| stress, and friction / frustration causes stress. thats hormones
| and thus kind of unavoidable (but managable again... with the
| anti hormones.). stress management takes time though, building
| anti cortisol. so it would be more efficient not to build so much
| cortisol (enjoy the ride) so you dont need to waste your
| productivity time building anti cortisol.
| mickduprez wrote:
| The power of words! Nothing new here really, it's the old
| systems/process vs goal story but actually I felt that one word
| make a cognitive shift, for me at least :)
| littke wrote:
| Reminds me of Dream Mapping: https://www.squadformers.com/dream-
| mapping
|
| It's about replacing OKRs with stories and maps.
| spikey_sanju wrote:
| Just read it. This is interesting. Definitely, we will be
| trying this on our team. Thanks!
| danjc wrote:
| It's helpful to learn to categorize things as urgent or
| important. Not many things are both and urgent always masquerades
| as important.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| This has been said many times, but it is worth repeating from
| time to time.
|
| It's analogous to "Have systems, not goals" or "Build habits, not
| goals" and I'm sure you can think of many such variations on the
| words, but at the end they all mean the same.
|
| Don't choose a point on the line that is your life, choose a
| vector.
| atoav wrote:
| Just don't fall into the trap that this means you shouldn't
| have goals. I would phrase it as: The way is more important
| than the destinations, but destinations are also worth having
| if you want to continue on the way.
| klabb3 wrote:
| I dislike the term, but something _like_ goals are useful to
| have and I enjoy them. But to me, they are more like visions
| of how I would want things to be. While clearly defined goals
| can be helpful when dealing with other people who frequently
| move goalposts, for my personal "goals" I find that those
| narrowly defined milestones are not helpful for motivation,
| nor a particularly good proxy for what's really important.
|
| Weirdly, I've been way, way more consistent with my somewhat
| loose "vision" than I ever saw in corporate life, where goals
| would change frequently depending on popular buzzwords,
| reorgs, new grand poobah hires, etc. That's made me think of
| goals more as a coping mechanism for a jittery "inner
| compass" or lack of direction. But of course, all of these
| terms have different connotations for different people.
| chii wrote:
| exactly.
|
| Goals are not what you do. Goals are sort of like desires,
| or outcomes you want, but you don't do a goal every day.
|
| By building up habits and systems and processes, and do
| them every day, the routine will eventually lead to a goal.
| atoav wrote:
| Thst is why I used metaphorical language here. Goals sound
| very well defined like something from a business plan. And
| granted, sometimes it is _nice_ to have well defined goals,
| e.g. when you are in a group or some other situation where
| having a bit more objectively formulated expectations help.
|
| Life coaches would tell you you should not only formulate
| goals, but also say within which time you want to get
| there.
|
| As you I found this can kill all joy. A vague vision is
| sometimes better as it can be adjusted to life
| circumstances. E.g. if you're a musician of course your
| vision is to make good music of a certain style, but as you
| are one part of a band within a uncertain environment
| anything more precise than a vague "move the band forward"
| would need to be overhauled every other month.
|
| But for other
| halfcat wrote:
| A coach I follow put it well (paraphrased):
|
| _When I first meet with an athlete, I ask them what their
| goal is. I just need to know the general direction and
| magnitude. Are they trying to get a little stronger over the
| summer, or are they trying to make the Olympics. Then we put
| the goal on a shelf and never discuss it again unless it
| changes. Then it's 100% mindset, process, repeat._
|
| He describes it as a pyramid, with character/mindset at the
| bottom, where you're trying to become the kind of person that
| can follow a process. Next is the process, the ability to
| follow basic instructions consistently (which is surprisingly
| hard for humans). Process builds the next layer, skills. And
| multiple skills get combined to form your strategy.
|
| And the key point was, everyone nerds out about the skill and
| strategy layer. But all progress happens in the mindset and
| process layer.
| langsoul-com wrote:
| I'd argue a quest can have the same pitfalls of a goal. That is
| you see it's so far off and do nothing about it on a continuous
| basis.
|
| Process VS goal always depends on the person.
|
| If someone has a goal, and everything around them is distracting
| them from reaching the finish line, the a quest would be
| irritating.
|
| Opposite is true too, a goal might have been the goal to start,
| but life changed and now they're chasing something that doesn't
| personally matter any more.
| atoav wrote:
| I often get asked by people how I learned to do X, where X is a
| skill that takes time and dedication, be it designing
| electronic circuits, playing musical instruments, programming
| etc.
|
| The answer is that you need to enjoy learning, because when you
| learn a thing most of the time you suck at it and most of the
| time there is something that you can't do or don't know. The
| person who is writing books because they like to learn about
| the universe, humanity and themselves will likely become better
| at writing books than the person who ticks off "Written a book"
| on their bucket list.
|
| The way I look at it, if you want to become really good it
| needs to be a quest with a many small goals sprinkled on top.
| The quest needs to be something you could do literally forever
| (e.g. play music, write code) and the goals could be single
| projects, etc.
|
| But for me the goals are just a means to do the quest, not the
| other way around.
| hasoleju wrote:
| I like how the name quest emphasizes the process, not the
| initially desired outcome. When you go on a quest you gain
| experience and have encounters that might even change your
| initially desired outcome. Instead of trying to reach an outcome
| you enjoy an adventure and change the human you are.
|
| A quest is a journey where the final destination is not clear in
| the beginning. But if you are successful, you will be a better
| version of yourself on the other side of the journey.
| jaza wrote:
| Great, it's a quest - I can use coconuts!
| anirudhk wrote:
| Process over outcomes; systems over goals; growth mindset over
| fixed mindset; satisficing over maximizing; professionalism over
| amateurism; boring fundamentals over flashy tricks; response over
| reaction; agency over passivity; presence over regret and worry.
|
| Unlearning Perfectionism https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-
| perfectionism/
| klabb3 wrote:
| Maybe this is insightful at its core, but "growth" and
| especially "growth mindset" is the most LinkedIn performance
| review garbage I've ever been force fed, so it's a bit of a
| turnoff simply based on how I've seen it used in practice.
| halfcat wrote:
| You're not wrong that it's been hijacked as productivity
| theatre.
|
| But it also doesn't reduce the wildly positive impact of
| growth mindset.
|
| It's kind of like exercise. It's a basic thing. People know
| in a logical sense they should do it. And _we feel like we
| get the benefit by learning about it_. But we get zero of the
| benefit if we don't do the work, and do it consistently.
|
| It's a "mastery of the basics" situation, where getting
| yourself to avoid the fixed mindset mental trap, and think in
| a growth mindset moment to moment, results in a level of
| effectiveness that almost cannot be explained, only
| experienced.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| The problem is, if you follow that religiously, you'll never
| achieve anything worthwhile. All of those push you away from
| finishing, the same way that their opposite do.
|
| It's valuable for "unlearning", and I am one of the people that
| must always be reminded of it. But if you go and "learn" that
| way outright, it will damage you too.
| deanc wrote:
| I'm surprised in the context of this discussion, that nobody has
| yet brought up James Clear's fantastic book: Atomic Habits [1] -
| one of the best selling non-fiction books worldwide over the last
| few years.
|
| I read this book over the summer, and it's an incredibly easy to
| digest breakdown of all the reasons why people fail at their
| goals, and very simple mind hacks to change the way you approach
| achieving them through good habits and avoiding bad ones.
|
| [1] https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits
| haste410 wrote:
| Personally I am glad no one mentioned that book. It's an overly
| long blog post with some anecdotes mixed in to stretch it to
| book length.
| Multicomp wrote:
| I preferred Charles Duigg's book the Power of Habit for
| similar reasons. All the material in Atomic Habits with more
| meat.
| deanc wrote:
| What didn't you like about it?
| teddyh wrote:
| A.k.a. "systems vs. goals":
| <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcKTYvupJw>
| brian_cunnie wrote:
| Thought-provoking piece, but I think it ignores one key item: we
| naturally gravitate to doing what we love. We don't need to write
| them down. I never wrote down, "build a dual-stack homelab with a
| handcrafted firewall and a 10Gbe fiber backbone with multiple
| VLANs and subnets and two virtualization hosts and a 12TB TrueNAS
| server, and DNS and Minio and DHCP and k8s." Of the hundreds of
| hours I spent on my homelab, I don't think I ever wrote down a
| "quest" or "goal".
|
| Similarly, I love swimming in the open cold water, but I never
| wrote down, "Swim from Alcatraz twice". It wasn't necessary. It
| happened organically.
| riehwvfbk wrote:
| But notice that you cherry-picked accomplishments that sound
| impressive. You didn't say "I watched 10 seasons of The
| Office", "I wasted over 8000 hours on HN", or "I impulse-bought
| a shed full of tools I never use", it happened organically!
| brian_cunnie wrote:
| Good point! I've also played almost a year's worth of World
| of Warcraft -- it happened organically!
| Venkatesh10 wrote:
| I feel like this is one of those gamified ways, we can tell our
| brain to work things on without burning out. But there will be a
| limit on how efficient we can go without getting bored or tired
| about.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Depends on how your brain is wired, I guess.
|
| Know what happens if I go on a quest instead of pursuing a goal?
|
| I end up using every available moment of time to plan said quest.
|
| So I don't do quests. I have goals. As long as I'm moving
| forward, it doesn't matter what specific route I take.
| veunes wrote:
| I think it all depends on the individual. Some people thrive with
| a quest mentality, while others prefer setting goals. Some live
| by analyzing their days using a SWOT system and this push them
| forward. Others are used to setting one big goal and like a
| dream.
| u32480932048 wrote:
| As a professional procrastinator, even the title makes immediate
| sense, and has already helped me reframe my to-do list. I'll read
| the rest of it ...later.
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