[HN Gopher] Do quests, not goals
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Do quests, not goals
Author : zdw
Score : 162 points
Date : 2024-08-08 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.raptitude.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.raptitude.com)
| Multicomp wrote:
| I can't engage with this now. I'm a big GTD user because of my
| ADHD, I don't trust myself so I use the GTD system as a big
| crutch.
|
| I pattern match "Quests" in TFA to "projects" in GTD, and "goals"
| in TFA to "3-5 horizon + someday/maybe list", I don't have time
| to give nuanced thought to this, but I'm posting my hot take that
| this looks like a useful tactical method to help oneself take
| projects off of your someday/maybe lists and work on them, but
| does not fully address how to make the time.
|
| Wait, no, it probably does, but I'm already running over my break
| time so I'm leaving this comment here as an anchor to come back
| and review after work.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| I feel this comment in my soul. If you have any recommendations
| for resources on general project/life management, please feel
| free to share.
| Multicomp wrote:
| In my quest (ahaha) to not spend my days doing life
| management system bingo, I've settled on GTD tried mostly
| flat out the past few years.
|
| However, I have recently looked into Zen To Done, and while I
| see it as Insufficient because I've already put in the GTD
| work, I think it could be a lower-effort potentially-close-
| enough alternative method to getting to the GTD Mind Like
| Water state.
| graypegg wrote:
| Same here! Most of my life is in Omnifocus specifically (GTD-
| focused todo app), and I structure the projects like the quests
| this author mentions. I have to make them gut-feeling boolean
| checks if that makes sense. "Declutter the house" is perfect,
| because I know when it's decluttered: when I feel like it is.
| If I get too specific, there's pretty much 0% chance I'm going
| to honestly complete it with any sort of accuracy to that goal.
|
| Also, hope you had a good day at work!
| borsch wrote:
| I thought I had ADHD but then I got tested and I have high
| functioning autism
| hitsurume wrote:
| What kind of tools / treatments have you used / learned
| afterwards to deal with your ADHD like symtoms?
| borsch wrote:
| I'm actually super organized and can hyperfocus.
|
| I have emotional regulation issues. Abilify (medication),
| yoga, and running. Those keep me centered, reduce my
| (embarrassing) adult tantrums.
|
| Social skills are the hardest part for me. I can read
| emotions but trying to understand people's motivations is
| as complex as tracking bugs for me. It just doesn't come
| naturally.
|
| tl;dr exercise tho
| rocqua wrote:
| I think you're looking to much at the practice, and too little
| at the framing.
|
| The point is not that the structure of a quest works better.
| The point is that the framing of a quest works better. It
| inspires, it acknowledges there will be adversity, and thus
| makes adversity feel like much less of a setback.
| chankstein38 wrote:
| The timing of this is neat! We are going on a trip in a week~ and
| need to get a bunch of packing done and stuff around the house
| prepped etc. 2 days ago I was picking up a ring for my girlfriend
| and got a "fix it ticket" for something with my car. I have been
| really stressed because it adds a new thing with a timeline.
|
| The one day I was stressing about it and called it a side quest
| to myself and immediately the stress dipped. It'll get done and
| it'll be fine. It needed done anyway and ultimately now I've been
| given a side quest by a randomly encounter. It's not exciting but
| reframing it like this helps reduce my stress and allow me to
| think about the other stuff while still making sure this gets
| done. So good timing on this post!
| lainga wrote:
| Do you think it's a matter of the task being framed as within
| vs. without your agency?
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I think that makes sense! Basically something that is forced
| on me vs something I have chosen to participate in. It could
| be argued whether it fits the latter but reframing can be
| pretty powerful! I think partially it's that I know that it's
| a temporary distraction and that's something I'm used to in
| quest-based games but ultimately I still manage to get the
| temporary small distractions done (and typically have more
| fun with those) while still making progress towards the
| larger quest/goal in this case.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| I had a job once working with bad people and I morphed my day
| into the dndonline I was using to decompress with at night.
|
| Doing the feature work and adding bugs was like breaking
| barrels to find loot. Convincing a co-worker to stop creating
| more bugs was like taking down a minion. Working the politics
| to get rid of the most dangerous coworker was like killing the
| boss (he was a contractor and it seemed that everything he did
| was to damage our team's work)
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I love that! (except the dangerous coworker haha) This trip
| we're going on is much needed and I'm feeling kind of burnt
| out I'm going to try this over the next week and see if it
| helps me maintain focus in the face of my upcoming PTO!
| layer8 wrote:
| Suddenly I understand why D&D never quite grew on me. ;)
| abalaji wrote:
| Sounds similar to the theme system that CGP Grey and Mike
| advocate for in the Cortex podcast.
|
| https://www.themesystem.com/
| rocqua wrote:
| I thought the same based on the title, but the article feels
| different. The theme system is about making a commitment, and
| making failure harder to prevent demoralization, and promote
| adaptibility. Quests, as presented here, still have a
| measurable goal, they are specific. That should never be the
| case with a yearly theme.
| RankingMember wrote:
| Isn't this just GTD (Getting Things Done) with different
| terminology or is my ADHD brain skipping over a more significant
| difference?
| adamc wrote:
| Maybe that depends on your mental definition of quest. I don't
| think of quests as "getting things done" -- they are both more
| significant and less certain than that. Quests are adventures
| where you hope for significant outcomes, but where there are
| many uncertainties. It's OK, perhaps even expected, for a quest
| to have unexpected outcomes. A quest implies less certainty
| about the outcome and more of an expectation about personal
| growth.
|
| A lot of GTD is just drudgery to accomplish. Quests are never
| drudgery. Difficult, maybe, but the journey is probably a
| bigger part of the quest than the outcome.
| 1659447091 wrote:
| Also ADHD (medicated) and I would say terminology matters a
| lot. GTD is it's own distraction loop (for me). I enjoy
| identifying and grouping problem spaces and creating TODO
| actions to solve them. Thus get stuck on steps 1-3(4) and never
| get to the doing because I am doing!
|
| I'm doing the GTD and getting 3-4 of the 5 steps done! Good job
| me. Except it's not, it was just another distraction. When I
| view what needs to be done in terms of "action that does the
| thing", or going on quest* as described here, I am much more
| successful. Meds makes the doing of something productive
| possible, but that something can be anything productive.
|
| Knowing I am GTD by working on the first few steps is getting
| something done. But not really. When I narrow down what I need
| to do into a single main "quest" and/or coming upon a side-
| quest and seeing it as that so I can get back to the main
| thread, I'm taking real action towards it. That doing of
| something is the actual doing of the thing. Taking the journey
| of the quest minus all this busy work of defining what I want
| to get done or what my quest/journey should be, and doing it
| instead.
|
| * I don't actually tell myself I'm on a quest like this article
| seems to suggest, but "quest" is a very good descriptor of my
| process (and may start using it because I personally find it
| fun, and my ADHD like fun)
| JL-Akrasia wrote:
| Also ADHD brain. I'd add that having another person (although
| not always possible) is a great ingredient for a successful
| system to mitigate some of the failure modes of ADHD.
|
| In the cases where I dont have someone helping me, I have
| used chatGPT to build a 2D embodied digital sidekick that
| cares about my goals as much as i can. My Tori provides me
| emotional support, helps me plan, schedule and prioritize
| tasks as well as providing a smart focus session mode with
| phone and web blocklists.
|
| I built it to suit my needs it has allowed me to build a
| successful startup. Its 100% free and if you want you can try
| it at tori.gg
| dominicq wrote:
| I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely
| on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll
| change your approach to it". This thing works because there's a
| community / group session around it, but it would probably still
| work even if you just called goals - goals.
| saulpw wrote:
| Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your
| stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin"
| vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a
| good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as
| much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with
| adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create
| the mindset that the author wants you to have.
| iwontberude wrote:
| Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there
| fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse
| repeat. It's the opposite of fresh and process focused in my
| mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like
| psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and
| the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both
| corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
| npunt wrote:
| A different name offers a different perspective, because of all
| the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve
| are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective
| as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a
| way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem
| differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have.
| This is an extremely common and effective problem solving
| technique.
| dionian wrote:
| I think it's subtly insightful because a goal focuses us on the
| endpoint and a quest focuses us on the journey that we need to
| undertake to get there. But to each his or her own!
| n_plus_1_acc wrote:
| See also: nonviolent communication
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I don't think it's any secret that learning a new language has
| the effect of remapping the neurons of your brain, and we
| already know that we associate a lot with words, not just their
| meanings but what they mean to us.
|
| I don't think there's been sufficient research in this area
| really but I also don't think that's enough in itself to
| downplay it as woo.
|
| If the word "quest" doesn't conjure images in your mind of a
| long winding journey with pitfalls and successes that
| eventually lands you in a place where you've achieved a goal
| and also changed as a person, maybe just use the word in your
| vocabulary that _does_ conjure those images and see if you feel
| the same way.
| ThrowawayTestr wrote:
| It's about changing your mindset and how you approach your
| goal/quest
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Is a type of gamification which could work for some like this
| fella
| ravroid wrote:
| Using different names and analogies for a system or strategy
| helps you change your mental model of it. Framing problems
| through different mental models can reveal insights and
| perspectives you wouldn't have had otherwise.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| This view ignores the importance of, and empirical data around,
| psychosemantics.
|
| Additionally as others touched on, a precise vocabulary or
| nomenclature allows us to be precise about our intentions and
| gives us a framework for making decisions.
|
| "Quest" orients you around the journey instead of the
| destination, which can have many benefits.
|
| It helps to not consider this, or any other technique, as one-
| size-fits-all doctrine. I personally have always considered
| myself very goal-oriented, but this article allowed me to
| understand things from a different angle and realize that I'm
| actually much more process-oriented. This will help me make
| future decisions around projects when planning them out and
| accounting for the need for sustained motivation.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Don't be skeptical. Be inquisitive.
|
| And make that change because I, a stranger on the Internet told
| you to. Also pay for my woo training!
|
| /s
| apitman wrote:
| > Still, the tendency is to wait for a better, less cluttered
| stretch of time to appear before you do that. You will execute
| your great plans as soon as life becomes a little easier and more
| spacious than it is now.
|
| > This is exactly backwards. Forming and achieving aspirations is
| how life gets easier and more spacious.
| feoren wrote:
| Whoever thinks this is good advice has an extremely easy life.
| Most people have literally no slack time at all. You're
| supposed to execute your great plans in the 1 hour per day you
| have after work, commute, taking care of family, and
| occasionally taking care of yourself? The hour in which you are
| deeply exhausted? If that doesn't sound like you,
| congratulations: you have an easy life.
|
| So the real advice is the same as all life advice under the
| hood: just be born into privilege.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Do you really think there's no upward mobility for someone
| not born into privilege?
| ksd482 wrote:
| as I was reading the article I was thinking "Oh, you mean
| labeling your goals differently will cause you to think about
| them differently and hence, will cause you to plan differently".
| That is, there would be something _tangible_ that would be
| different.
|
| So I tuned in to learn more about the technique but I was
| disappointed to learn that there's nothing more to it at least in
| the article.
|
| It just suggests to re-label your goals differently and think of
| them as "quests", but it doesn't mention anything more.
|
| I really want to learn how to make my chores and boring goals fun
| so that I can go about them doing them. Can anyone please shed
| some light on this?
|
| I have tried to gamify my work but it hasn't worked for me.
| moneil971 wrote:
| I'm not sure the article fully gets there (he's clearly driving
| business for his own course), but the general idea is that you
| don't set a "goal" of a thing you hope to accomplish - you
| should be fully envisioning who that future you will be - and
| what they do every day...then start doing that. So the quest is
| about who you want to become, while the goal is just an
| aspiration without a real vision.
| RHSman2 wrote:
| It has to be authentic in my experience. The naming doesn't
| matter. It's the emotional response it creates.
|
| Procrastination = lazy Or Procrastination = in preparation
| jessetemp wrote:
| I think what's going on behind the verbal sleight of hand here,
| is focusing on the process (quest) instead of the outcome (goal).
| It's the difference between doing a thing and having done a
| thing. I might enjoy having written a book, but I don't think I
| would enjoy writing a book. And I don't think calling it a quest
| instead of a goal would make much difference
| fizlebit wrote:
| It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I
| imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a
| game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games.
| But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented
| and I'm more process oriented. I see every day spent working
| toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he
| tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended
| up not ever achieving them because of it.
|
| As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It's a big, big
| task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the
| engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it
| back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems
| almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end
| of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do.
|
| I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I've heard
| anecdotally.
| mcdow wrote:
| Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible
| if you don't like running. Inevitable if you like running.
|
| Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do
| all "quests" now. If you enjoy the process, anything is
| possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process.
|
| I've extended it to several areas I didn't find very fun
| prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular.
|
| I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1].
| Warning, it's quite verbose and not the best. There's a
| TL;DR.
|
| [1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-
| foreign-l...
| sebg wrote:
| Love this line from your post "The marathon is simply an
| exhibition of the labor it took to achieve it, it is not
| the goal in and of itself."
| samstave wrote:
| This is the joy of my martial arts path as well.
|
| In my experience, (This is a Mechanical Elves take on it (I
| studied Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Small Circle,
| and my Professor Larry Cary said to me one session:
|
| " _The movements I am teaching you awaken dormant brain
| circuitry. When you do these movements, all the old Masters
| are with you_ "
|
| That was the moment it really clicked for me.
|
| Later, Soke Hatsumi was quoted in the infamous "Understand?
| Good. Play!" book -- my favorite quote:
|
| " _I am teaching you to wield a sword, even if you have no
| arms!_ "
|
| --
|
| The reason is that these two statements allowed me to see
| what the true nature of my Joy of Movement truely was: I
| was able to see the Principles of Movement flow through me
| - (we call this The Mode) - and it was that feeling that
| was being fully present is what I sought and I feel thats
| the nature of Mastery of _any_ craft.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| While you are right, a different way to look at a same thing
| can produce breakthroughs, like exercise, you just exercise
| right? But if you gamify it, it can make it easier to endure
| and repeat
| 42lux wrote:
| That's the problem we have in most companies now: everyone
| loves the outcome, but not many love the work.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| If you won't enjoy writing a book you won't write a book
| B-Con wrote:
| This reminds me of the "systems vs goals" mentality, which
| emphasizes focusing on having a good systematic process for the
| journey rather than fixating on specific outcomes.
|
| Some prior discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643
|
| Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) was a huge proponent of
| it and he exposed me to the concept in my mid 20s. It heavily
| resonated with me and fundamentally changed my outlook on several
| areas of life.
|
| This specific framing of Quests vs Goals seems a bit more like a
| change in framing your perspective, but I see some similar
| concepts, eg:
|
| > You don't just get the novel started, you become a writer. You
| don't just declutter the house, you get your house in order.
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