[HN Gopher] MNT Pocket Reform first impressions and hardware
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MNT Pocket Reform first impressions and hardware
Author : andypiper
Score : 133 points
Date : 2024-08-06 23:56 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (andypiper.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (andypiper.co.uk)
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I got one of these recently as well, and have similar feelings.
| MNT's devices are not for everyone; you definitely need to be
| prepared for some tinkering, and some things are a little bit
| rough at first. But for a certain kind of person (and I count
| myself as one of those people) they're so much fun.
|
| It definitely has been scratching my tiny laptop itch. I think
| the first laptop I ever used was my dad's Libretto 70ct back in
| the day, and I've loved mini laptops ever since. I think they hit
| on the right input method with that small trackball too, it's
| very smooth!
|
| I also designed a custom back panel for mine, though
| unfortunately I missed a few details so I'm gonna have to get it
| re-made. But it's fun to have so many customization options!
| https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-h...
| tra3 wrote:
| I remember coveting the librettos! And then the slim sony
| laptops. These days I dont think there's anything better than a
| MacBook Air though.
|
| What's the use case for one of these? Data centers?
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I can imagine them being useful in a datacenter, yeah. So far
| for my own use it's been nice for writing at my nearby coffee
| shop, because it takes up less space on the table than a
| full-sized laptop and the small screen seems to help avoid
| distractions (so far, haven't had it for that long, etc).
|
| And I don't travel long distances that often, but it probably
| fits better on train or airplane tray tables than a bigger
| laptop would too. I'm always worried the person in front of
| me will recline a bit when my laptop's in just the wrong spot
| and it'll shatter my screen from the top, haha.
| nextos wrote:
| Travel is one use case. I loved the form factor of MBA 11 for
| ssh and local use of Mutt.
|
| I've been keeping an eye on MNT Pocket as a substitute.
| Reviews look great.
|
| The MBA 11 was nice because it fitted in an airplane tray
| really well.
| tra3 wrote:
| There's a thread about 11" Chromebooks:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578
|
| Might be a good option.
| nextos wrote:
| Thanks, I know, I posted that thread :)
| wishfish wrote:
| There's almost nothing in that Libretto size from the
| mainstream companies. But there are small companies making 8
| and 10 inch laptops. GPD seems the most popular brand but
| there are several you can find on Amazon, Aliexpress, and
| Ebay.
|
| And then there's the Steam Deck, and variants from Asus and
| Lenovo. But with those you have to supply your own KB +
| stand. I guess they wouldn't quite count.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Yeah, I had a GPD Micro PC prior to this, and I liked it...
| but the hinge snapped and replacing it seems like a pretty
| involved process. The build quality of the Pocket Reform
| feels much better, and it's a lot more straightforward to
| get inside and swap things out than with the GPD.
| andypiper wrote:
| that custom back panel is gorgeous! I would love to know more
| about how you got that made, as I now, um, _need_ to do
| something similar...
| andypiper wrote:
| you 100% did write about it, reading that now - where did you
| get it fabbed? tell me more :-)
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I got it fabbed at JLCPCB, though later realized that the
| stock panel had counterbores on its mounting holes so the
| screws would be flush. JLC can't do that, so I'm going to
| see if I can DIY that with the drill press at my local
| hackerspace before I get the next run made.
|
| I also accidentally got them made out of PCBs of the wrong
| thickness, and I forgot that the CPU module and wireless
| antennas would be in the top half so there's a full copper
| layer underneath that lettering which won't be great for
| wireless reception. Ah well, you live and learn :)
| andypiper wrote:
| Nice, thanks for the added detail. I'm taking notes!
| Might see if I can do something similar.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I was inspired by this post on Crowd Supply for what it's
| worth! https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-
| reform/updates/on-ope...
|
| Bit light on detail, but it got me a decent part of the
| way there.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| Like with the MNT Reform (non-pocket), there are a few things
| that are aesthetically very pleasing (and fun, even), but in day-
| to-day use make it hard to adopt.
|
| On the original Reform, I had some issues adapting to it's
| slightly non-standard (at least for US English) key layout... and
| on this one, it has a very visually-pleasing key layout, but I
| can imagine unless it's your only keyboard, it will take a bit of
| mind-melding to type well on it.
|
| These MNT devices are--at least for now--not the type of things
| you'd consider to replace a Macbook or a slim laptop for
| portability and practicality/value.
|
| I still want one, lol
| Klasiaster wrote:
| The latest keyboard version 3.0 is more standard. The swapped
| control vs caps lock position is something one can probably
| remap in software. The apparent lack of page-up/down and
| home/end keys would be more of a problem for me, though.
|
| https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-keyboard-30
| stonogo wrote:
| The default firmware uses Hyper (the arrow pointing up and to
| the right) plus left/right for home/end and Hyper plus
| up/down for page up and page down. I'm not sure it's good
| enough either.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Input was my #1 issue with any tiny portables. Apart from
| getting a "good feeling" keyboard, losing the ability to
| properly touch type really rains on the parade of how you can
| run a "real" OS on the devices. The Pocket Reform does slightly
| better than some in that you can try to act like it's a normal
| keyboard experience if you have a solid surface and can ignore
| the tiny and non standard layout. The other half of the input
| story is of course mouse input. Touch controls are just a no go
| for using a "real" OS on a tiny screen, trackpoints style nubs
| are mid tier, and (surprisingly) I found ones which reuse the
| built in gamepad buttons and sticks (E.g. the Ally) are best.
| It probably has more to do with having the extra physical
| buttons to both control the mouse and modify the control
| behavior.
|
| My #2 issue was always in realizing how disappointing it was to
| trade so much performance on top of the things still always
| being too large to comfortable fit in your actual pocket
| anyways. If you're already the type that enjoys carrying a
| portable game console with you then you might enjoy carrying
| one of the gaming focused mini portables since you can trade
| some minor clunkiness for more game library flexibility and raw
| power isn't a huge requirement to have a decent portable game
| library. If you're wanting to actually use it as a traditional
| computer... I just don't think I could ever see the device
| class being more than a novelty which ends up on a shelf after
| 7 uses for 95% of people that go and buy one.
|
| It's cool this one is open hardware and focused on trying to
| provide a good open software experience but it does make all of
| the above even a bit rougher (can't help but recoil that every
| post about the Pocket Reform has a picture of the user at a
| text terminal).
| megasquid wrote:
| FWIW I was all in on apple until I bought a brand new top of
| the line MBP in 2016, only to have it crap out on me a couple
| years later due to flexgate. Apple wanted me to pay something
| like $800 for a new screen due to their design flaws on a super
| small cable.
|
| Clearly I'm biased, but the price for a new top of the line MNT
| laptop isn't bad comparatively at ~1,500 USD. Assuming you can
| wait a half a year to get one... On the keyboard comment, I
| have to say I find it quite easy to use. The only real
| difference is the split space bar, alt, and ctrl keys.
|
| Would love to see a followup review on your channel whenever
| they get around to releasing the MNT Reform Next which should
| be much slimmer and faster. To your credit though, it's
| definitely for people who are willing to tinker. Simple things
| you'd expect to work like plugging in an external monitor don't
| work out of the box.
| andypiper wrote:
| Hey Jeff! Yes, I remember your review on the Reform as well. It
| is not a direct replacement for something like the MacBook (I'm
| using a MBP as I type this reply because I have a meeting in an
| hour and need the camera etc for Zoom...) - either in direct
| usability of the keyboard or the performance etc. It's a lovely
| machine though and I'm finding uses for it in commuting and
| other places.
| Perz1val wrote:
| I haven't used a board that's not the default row staggered
| type, but from what I've heard when a keyboard is different
| shape, switching is actually easy. Like you probably have no
| problem using a touchpad and a mouse, but when using somebody's
| setup, the sensitivity is different or natural scrolling is
| enabled/disabled and it's just frustrating
| 3np wrote:
| Keyboard ergonomics vary a lot between individuals and you
| pretty much have to try until you know what can work for you.
|
| Some people swear by ortholinear as the most ergonomic. I did
| give ortholinear a few serious attempts but it always ends in
| strain and pain. And I'm no stranger to exotic keyboards.
|
| Otherwise I'd be all over the MNT Pocket Reform but alas.
| Column-staggered (crkbd-style) would be lovely.
| butterisgood wrote:
| Too small to be practical for me. I can feel my RSI kicking in
| right away with this form factor.
|
| But I will say the MNT Reform stuff is pretty amazing all-around!
| I just can't anymore with most keyboards after a good 34 years
| keyboarding.
|
| To the younger crowd out there - stretch... Play guitar or
| something. It helps!
| anonzzzies wrote:
| It seems some people have it and some don't; I have been
| keyboarding now for 43 years almost every day and have never
| even had a twinge. It screwed my health (sitting for decades as
| computers are my work and also my hobby) for a bit, but never
| had anything with my hands, fingers, neck or etc. Not sure how
| it works. My parents did put me on a 10 finger typing course
| when I was 6; maybe that was it?
|
| I typed for years on a GPD pocket 1 as primary work machine (I
| had to travel a lot) until my eyesight didn't work anymore on
| that tiny screen.
| Evidlo wrote:
| What problems did it cause for you and how did you fix it?
| megasquid wrote:
| Typing this from an MNT Reform with a CM4 chip in it. Don't have
| a Pocket Reform yet, but just want to chime in and say that I
| love what the MNT team is doing.
|
| With the new rk3588 SOM it's possible to have 8 cores and 32 gigs
| of RAM can't recommend their devices enough. Have a second Reform
| with an LS1028A.
|
| Deeply want them to continue to succeed. So refreshing to have a
| device that is fully transparent and upgrade-able over time.
|
| Waiting for their new server rack mounted form factor to come out
| so I can put my old SOMs to use in my homelab.
| pengaru wrote:
| I heart my mnt reform. Give these people money if you can spare
| some in exchange for interesting open hardware for running linux
| on you'd like to see keep improving and being iterated on.
| andypiper wrote:
| +1 from me for supporting innovators and folks doing good
| things for the right reasons. I'm in a privileged position to
| be able to have this as an "extra" machine, and I want these
| folks to sustain and succeed.
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| Talking about open hardware:
|
| Is there a tablet out there which runs Debian or Ubuntu?
|
| I don't mean it has to come with Linux in the first place. I can
| wipe Windows or whatever it comes with and install Debian myself.
|
| When I google around, I see people use some tablets with Linux
| based on special kernels they download from somewhere around the
| web. I would not want that. But a standard Debian or Ubuntu on a
| tablet would be great.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I think the starlite 5 from https://starlabs.systems/ is what
| you are looking for.
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| Hmm... 1.98 pounds for a 12.5 inch tablet. I was hoping for
| something more lightweight.
|
| The is new iPads are 1.3 pounds at 13 inch.
| prmoustache wrote:
| But the new iPads aren't running Linux -\\_(tsu)_/- You
| asked, I gave you the only option I knew besides the
| pinetabs.
| Qwertious wrote:
| It's an x86 laptop without the keyboard (clip-on keyboard
| is an optional extra). On the plus side, that means it's
| just as easy to install a different OS as any laptop.
|
| 1.98lb = 0.89811289 Kilogram
| ptman wrote:
| https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineTab2
| amysox wrote:
| What I'd like to know is, how'd he get his device so quickly? I
| have one on order; I checked the Crowd Supply site, and it says
| they're shipping it August 31. (Earlier, it said "July 31," but
| they bumped it.)
| mntmn wrote:
| There was an initial crowdfunding period first which we have
| almost completely fulfilled now (working on the last shipment
| of 68 devices atm). The devices you are buying now are from
| Crowd Supply's stock which we will start fulfilling to them in
| around 2 weeks.
| notepad0x90 wrote:
| 1200 euros for such a small laptop is too much though, that's the
| price range of frame work and other similar laptops. You can get
| a large sized laptop from hp or dell with better hardware for
| roughly half that price. 700 euros should be the max price for
| the size and specs.
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| Yeah, if you compare with the prices set by large manufacturers
| you are right, of course. But note the company behind this
| machine is like a two persons shop. They lack the economy of
| scale. And from a large hardware manufacturer you do not get
| "open source" hardware for which circuit diagrams are available
| to you for all major parts. If you do not care about that then
| this thing is not for you.
| notepad0x90 wrote:
| The price of anything is how much people are willing to pay
| for it. if consumers were willing to pay more, the big
| manufacturers will also charge more.
| rcarmo wrote:
| Agreed. And for even cheaper you can get an Android tablet (or
| even an iPad) and an external keyboard, if you think trading
| openness for their app ecosystems is a benefit.
| mntmn wrote:
| The US price starts at $999, but you get hit with VAT when
| ordering from Europe. The VAT situation will be a bit different
| once we can offer these in our own (EU based) shop in a few
| weeks.
|
| Keep in mind we're hand assembling these in Berlin, Germany,
| and the first batch size was below 1000 units.
| notepad0x90 wrote:
| I understand your perspective for costs, and the economics of
| a low batch like that are rough as well.
|
| I hope you target larger batches and cheaper labor in the US
| (even to ship it back to EU) , or if you're paranoid about
| that, there are places that will help you with the assembly
| part in Mexico or plenty of other countries. I'm hoping a
| larger funding round on crowdsupply might help you target
| larger batches (and gauge interest).
|
| The problem with the current price point is, I might get it
| for myself out of curiosity but I can't really recommend it
| to others unless they show strong interest in small and
| portable laptops.
| holri wrote:
| This is not a mass market device for everyone. That is
| good. I hope it stays the same.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Sure, but these are not made in some asian sweatshop and you
| can replace everything yourself.
| notepad0x90 wrote:
| I can replace everything with frame work (it is designed to
| be long term maintainable and replaceable), and I wouldn't
| dare discriminate on the people who are earning a living
| assembling laptops on the basis of the continent they reside
| in.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I know hardware developed in asia that is not from
| sweatshops. It is more expensive though. It is fact that
| most mass produced hardware comes from mass assembly line
| low wage staff in asia under questionable circumstances.
| How is that discrimination?
|
| The frame work is more expensive than what the person I
| responded to said, but it is an example of how it should
| be. It wont be cheaper though.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Miniatures cost extra, just so you know. Bulky stuffs are
| cheaper.
| rookderby wrote:
| I think it is a fair price and for such low volumes I'm not
| sure how they are keeping costs so reasonable.
| nfriedly wrote:
| That's really cool!
|
| I have a GPD win mini that I'm really happy with. It's not really
| comparable to this device, except that they're both pocket-sized
| computers. But in just that one regard alone they're fairly
| unique, and it is very nice to be able to just grab a computer
| (that's more functional than a smartphone) and stick it in my
| pocket.
| upofadown wrote:
| Apparently these things support OpenBSD to some extent. Which is
| nice, OpenBSD on ARM tends not to be all that great if you want
| everything to work for you.
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