[HN Gopher] The real "Wolf of Wall Street" sales script
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The real "Wolf of Wall Street" sales script
Author : nicconley
Score : 168 points
Date : 2024-08-06 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jointhefollowup.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jointhefollowup.com)
| kqr wrote:
| Detail question on one of the recommendations in the article:
| wouldn't "are you busy?" be more effective than "do you have a
| second?"
|
| Working from the hypothesis that people generally don't have
| seconds they are willing to give away to anyone who calls, but
| they are busy to varying degrees.
| kungito wrote:
| From what I read he doesn't ask whether someone is busy but
| only acknowledges they know they are busy and moves on with the
| pitch
| moribvndvs wrote:
| I dunno. "Are you busy?" sounds open ended and is a bit
| presumptive (I don't know you, what business is it of yours?).
| Do you have a second seems more casual and nonchalant without
| being particularly rude while succinctly indicating you aren't
| asking for lengthy or in depth attention. You're playing on a
| natural tendency many people have for simple charity, and then
| once you're in... well, lots of us have felt trapped in
| unwanted situations because of a fear of being rude, right?
| Tectosage wrote:
| The pitch was designed to elicit a 'Yes' response at every turn
| (the idea being that the prospective client would be
| conditioned to saying 'Yes' over and over and be more amenable
| to the final hammer swing of 'send me x dollars for y shares').
| Most pitches were directed at the kind of business owners and
| execs who end up on lead services like Dun & Bradstreet, but
| sometimes also targeted individuals at their homes; in either
| case, the prospect is either running a business or just arrived
| home from work and is tending to kids/dinner/chores/etc. Ask
| someone in either scenario if they're busy and the default
| answer is yes; they're always busy. But ask them if they have a
| second, and they're more likely to say yes. Everyone has a
| second, even if they're busy, and the very wording of the
| question implies this will be a brief and laconic interaction
| that won't interrupt their day. Busy is a negative primer, have
| a second is a positive one.
|
| The article contains a few rebuttal snippets, but the full
| "straight line" pitch had rebuttals for every step of the
| interaction and every possible response from a prospect. They
| called it the "straight line" because the idea was that at all
| moments of the conversation, you are constantly guiding the
| prospect along a straight line to the desired conclusion (a
| sale), and any diversion from this straight line in the form of
| customer protest/question/disinterest needs to be quickly and
| somewhat aggressively countered with a rebuttal and then
| followed with a slick line that elicits a return to the
| previous direction.
|
| Since I'm already rambling, I'll add another detail that isn't
| in the article; Belfort didn't come up with this pitch himself,
| it was developed originally at Lehman Brothers (one of the
| leading firms) and was used in some form at all of the big
| wirehouse brokerages (eg, the original Merrill Lynch
| "thundering herd" or LF Rothschild, where Belfort learned it).
|
| Belfort's "innovation" was not the script, it was taking the
| script out of the hands of elite white-shoe brokers (who sold
| legitimate stocks to clients) and teaching it to unscrupulous
| boiler room scammers (who made their money by tricking
| prospects into buying penny stocks that Stratton Oakmont then
| dumped).
| lupire wrote:
| The white shoes were also unscrupulous; they just weren't
| outright frauds
| allenu wrote:
| I suspect the latter question works better because it's softer
| and doesn't give as much of an out as the former. We're all
| busy. It's much easier to answer in the affirmative and if
| anything, highlighting the busy nature of your day makes it
| easier to say "leave me alone", but the latter is harder to
| answer no to, at least socially. A second or two, surely you
| can spare that. He's not asking for much! (Obviously, it's
| figuratively "a second" and more like a few minutes, but at
| least there's some daylight for the caller to squeeze their
| foot in the door.)
|
| A lot sales pitches really prey on people's general desire not
| to be rude to another human being, so choosing the right
| phrasing to make the mark feel bad for breaking a social
| convention if they say no is by design.
| bittercynic wrote:
| I guess it must work, or they wouldn't keep doing it, but why
| would anyone entertain a cold caller to any degree? In my
| experience there's a 0% chance it will be useful or a good deal,
| and a very high likelyhood it's an outright scam.
|
| I do think it's good to be polite to anyone who calls, but it
| doesn't matter what they say or ask, the answer is always a
| polite "Please don't call me again."
| sumtechguy wrote:
| Most cons like that are have huge failure rates. But all it
| takes is one or two to fall for it for it to be worthwhile.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| It's a lot better than the scam calls I get where an Indian guy
| says "Do you remember signing up for x, you won!" on a scratchy
| connection where I can clearly hear everyone else in the
| crowded room calling other people.
| scrapcode wrote:
| I'm interested in more lit on the subject, but I never
| understood how anyone sells anything via cold-calling. I
| understand why SPAM works - because it has a very small barrier
| to entry and it works on the idea of converting a small
| fraction of messages sent. But cold-calling takes man-hours and
| I can only imagine it's sole purpose is to catch individuals
| that simply would rather pay you to end the call rather than
| say "no."
|
| Even worse is door-to-door sales. My neighborhood has big "no
| soliciting" signs at the entrances, but at certain times of the
| year we get huge swaths of salesmen and it's typically for the
| exact same services at different times of year. Once I was
| working on my boat late at night in my garage with the door
| halfway open. I had a pesticide service salesman zip up my
| driveway on a segway and come inside my garage and start
| pitching. I couldn't help but to lose my stuff on him. Do these
| tactics really work? Is it a certain demographic? Because I
| just don't grok.
| ryandrake wrote:
| A lot of people are gullible and/or socially have trouble
| saying "no" to people. I think cold calling and door-to-door
| sales preys on that. I have elderly family members who _hate_
| getting telemarketing cold calls, but they are from some time
| /culture where it's uncomfortable/difficult to directly tell
| someone "No, I'm not interested. Fuck off." That's often
| who's falling for these.
|
| If I actually needed what the salesman was selling, I would
| have bought it already myself. This is true for everything
| I've ever purchased. The fact that they have to push it on me
| proves that it's negative-EV and I have no problem just
| hanging up or closing the door. I guess not everyone finds
| this easy.
| 6510 wrote:
| This is actually good. "Thanks for your time, the BRAWNDO
| CORPORATION won't call you again."
|
| If you manage to end it in 3-8 seconds they can do 360 such
| calls in an hour. If the guy costs $12 per hour that works
| out to little over 3 cent.
|
| And then, 20 months later a % of the "fuck off, leave me
| alone" guys need the product and remember how polite the
| call was. These usually do a good bit of research. They
| clearly call for information. If the price is good and they
| live 3 blocks away there are good odds they let you mow
| their lawn.
| somat wrote:
| Too true, Many people, including myself, tend to say "ha,
| I have never bought any thing based on an ad or salesman"
| But often that is not the point, the point is to get it
| in your head that the product exists. and when you do
| need one, when faced with several indistinguishable
| items, you go for the one that feels familiar, the one
| that was infiltrated into your head months ago.
|
| There is nothing super wrong with this, I mean, sales is
| necessary evil of doing business. necessary, because the
| whole point is to sell the thing, and evil, because you
| are coercing someone to do something they otherwise would
| not have done. But I think there is a healthy ratio here,
| and I try to make a point(often failing for the reason in
| the previous paragraph) to avoid products that lean too
| heavily on the unhealthy side of that ratio. those
| companies that believe sales is more important than the
| product.
| 6510 wrote:
| If there are very few potential customers you just ask if
| it is at all possible to meet them. Same if you have only
| a few phone numbers from people who meet some set of
| requirements.
|
| If there are millions of prospects and you cant filter by
| anything the point is to figure out that they don't need
| or want your product. Do it fast and politely.
|
| Or not even that, the actual goal is to put in the calls
| without the negative psychological effect of mass
| rejection.
|
| Arguably, you can start calling before writing the
| business plan when you only have a half finished idea. If
| you find just one prospect who says your product would be
| a wonderful thing have them be more specific. Like that
| it is much easier to stay motivated. Rejection is much
| harder if you are deeply invested, wrote the plan, wrote
| the code, found investors, hired employees.
|
| While cold calling is heavily associated with shit
| products that doesn't mean your product is shit the
| moment you pick up the phone. Or maybe it is and you need
| to be told what is wrong with it repeatedly. You need to
| be talking with people who've made widgets for decades,
| they know their stuff.
|
| Who knows, maybe you don't even need an idea. If you just
| call 1000 people in the funeral sector they can tell you
| what software they need. Then try weddings, laundromats,
| plumbers etc
|
| Ask the dumb questions, what would be the right time to
| call someone in the $sectorName sector? What is their
| software budget? What are the repetitive administrative
| tasks? Is the sector patient and polite or do they tell
| you to fuck off and hang up?
| immibis wrote:
| > If I actually needed what the salesman was selling, I
| would have bought it already myself.
|
| This assumes it's a frictionless commodity. I want a pizza,
| I buy a pizza. I'm not interested in cold calls selling me
| pizza because if I wanted one, I would've already gone to
| the pizza shop down the road.
|
| However, not everything is like this. Jobs, for example,
| are the opposite extreme. If someone cold-calls me asking
| me a job interview, well, this actually happened (not via a
| phone call) and led to me moving halfway around the world
| and having to learn a second language. Did I get scammed?
| Ich denke nicht.
|
| In the realm of actual products, there are might be things
| you think about buying for a long time, and then eventually
| you see a good deal and buy it. Cold calls may help you
| find a good deal (I doubt it now - but back in the era when
| they weren't just spam) and then you may buy it.
|
| There's also just advertising, especially for B2B where
| everything is more opaque. I have no idea where to get
| advanced Ethernet switch ASICs ("merchant silicon" as they
| call it) and you can't even Google it because the
| information isn't public. If I was a networking company and
| some switch ASIC company called me to tell me they make
| switch ASICs and here's our product selection guide, that
| would actually be welcome information. (I'm not one, but
| let's imagine I was.)
| Eridrus wrote:
| This assumes that you know everything there is to know
| about the world.
|
| Customers often do not know that products or even product
| categories exist and need to be informed about them.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| This idea that there is a solution to every problem if
| you only knew about it is a hallmark of these things. A
| lot of products are solutions looking for a problem, and
| they work very hard to make you think you'll have a
| problem if you don't buy the product.
|
| As an example, a pest control company canvassed one of my
| friends' cul-de-sacs and essentially threatened to send
| all the pests into his house by poisoning them and
| repelling them from all the neighbors. If you have a pest
| problem exclusion is usually cheaper and better than
| poison or repellent. My wife paid for trapping and
| control on her house for years and then I went around
| over the course of a couple of weeks and closed the gaps
| in her siding that were added by telecommunications
| companies like Verizon and AT&T and Comcast over the
| years. Mysteriously the pest problem went away after
| that.
|
| So it's not always the case that the product being
| advertised is a net positive. Often it's net neutral or
| net negative. But the advertiser sure wants you to do it
| anyway.
| Eridrus wrote:
| Not all products and services are good, yes. But you
| don't spring forth from the womb knowing about all the
| good ones either.
| vundercind wrote:
| I know ad and marketing folks tell themselves this to
| sleep at night, but it's such a small factor in actual
| marketing and advertising that happens that it's
| negligible.
| ralegh wrote:
| It sounds like you mostly didn't have the problems they were
| pitching for. Imagine you urgently needed a pesticide guy!
| Maybe you'd too annoyed to buy but someone else might not.
| That's my head canon on why google makes so much from search
| ads, they're advertising to people who are trying to solve
| that specific problem right now.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| My ex used to write car commercials, and I asked her why
| they all had that goofy tone and all sounded the same in a
| weird way. I told her that I couldn't remember a single
| dealership from all the commercials I'd heard, since that
| tone lets me filter them out. She told me that was just
| because I wasn't in the market for a car, and if I was,
| that same tone would make the car commercials stand out.
| Sure enough, when I _was_ in the market for a car years
| later, I realized she was right!
| cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
| Yep. HN (and similar community) conversations on this
| topic are always so snobby, but in reality all it points
| to is this community mostly wanting to buy different
| things. Everyone here is just as susceptible.
| allenu wrote:
| That's a great point. So much of advertising is just
| providing awareness, too. I may not be in the market for
| a particular product, but if I've heard their ads a
| million times, even if they're annoying, once I go to
| buy, I will probably give them more weight than some
| unknown brand, especially if it's a low stakes purchase.
| dylan604 wrote:
| The biggest door to door I get is from roofing/window where
| they canvas the neighborhood when doing a neighbor's house. I
| don't see the types of door to door where a car would drop
| off a couple of people to cover an area any more though. The
| No Soliciting is just not even a concern for them. It's not
| like it is enforceable in any way than a possibly rude door
| slamming in their face, and who cares about that?
| nemo44x wrote:
| "Hey, we're doing some work in your neighborhood and since
| our trucks and team are already there we can get you a
| great deal..."
|
| I've never understood why anyone would think this would
| matter. Like they're camping in our neighborhood for the
| week and this saves everyone money somehow?
|
| Or the other tactic where they say "you might have noticed
| my truck around as I've done some work for <neighbor> and
| will be at <other neighbor>'s house later..."
|
| They name people whose door they knocked on, got their
| name, and likely rejected. But they use those names on
| other prospects which makes it sound like word of mouth,
| the best form of advertising! "Oh, if my neighbor is using
| this guy for <Service> he must be good"... Really a
| brilliant tactic that I bet fools some people.
|
| The only guy I really admired (but didn't use because I
| thought his prices were far too high) was a guy going door
| to door offering to clean the outside windows. He wanted
| $10/window and I was like no way. I'm sure he got a few
| customers.
| allenu wrote:
| I can see how "we're in your neighborhood so we thought
| you might want to use our services while we're here"
| could work. When I first moved into my house a few years
| ago, I wasn't familiar with tactics used by door to door
| salespeople, so I legitimately thought they were in the
| neighborhood and to save them on a second trip, they were
| seeing if they could drum up some additional business.
|
| It was only after just about every door-to-door salesman
| used that excuse that I clued in that he's probably just
| a sales guy going to random neighborhoods and not
| actually one of the workers on the ground doing the job.
| Anyway, my point is most people don't think about these
| things, and especially not new homeowners, and probably
| just take their word.
|
| Regarding the $10/window guy: I've been meaning to get
| out the ladder and clean all my windows myself but have
| been lazy, so if somebody actually showed up at my door,
| quoted a price, and said they'd do it right then and
| there, I might take them up on the offer. It's really
| just a numbers game for them.
| nemo44x wrote:
| For me it would have been over $400 since I have over 40
| individual windows. I'd do it for $150, maybe $200. But
| not $400. I'm guessing he was able to pull a few though.
|
| As for the "in the area" thing, it sounds logical at
| first and I've heard of neighbors negotiating a discount
| by getting the same job done by the same vendor but for
| jobs that take a good while if not multiple days, it just
| doesn't matter.
| dmurray wrote:
| > I've never understood why anyone would think this would
| matter. Like they're camping in our neighborhood for the
| week and this saves everyone money somehow?
|
| This seems obvious to me. My neighbours were getting
| their gutters cleaned and needed to come in to our
| garden, I asked the guys if they'd do ours as well. We
| didn't negotiate too hard on price, but I'm sure if
| pushed they would have taken something less than they'd
| charge to drive out and set up their equipment from
| scratch.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Maybe but probably not since they likely have jobs lined
| up for the next few months and aren't about to work for
| less than they know they can get. It's not like these
| guys are taking a horse and carriage 50 miles to a town
| to setup camp and try and sell out of whatever they're
| peddling. They drive like 15 minutes. And they aren't
| desperate for work.
| dsr_ wrote:
| If the tactic results in a return on investment, somebody
| will do it -- even if it makes them unwelcome at family
| reunions.
|
| When the cost is extremely low -- spamming -- any return at
| all will justify it.
|
| When the cost is low and the return is relatively high --
| cold calling -- it will happen.
|
| Only regulation and good enforcement of the regulation can
| stop these activities in a capitalist regime.
| landryraccoon wrote:
| The fact that cold calling was expensive was a signal that
| the caller was legitimate.
|
| In the era where calling someone on the phone is cheap and
| highly optimized, getting a phone call is not a signal for
| quality.
|
| But back in the 1980s that wouldn't have been the case. If a
| human being picked up the phone and called you, you would be
| more inclined to listen to them, simply because you knew it
| was expensive for them to call and it happened infrequently.
| Phone spam didn't become a thing until much later.
| 13of40 wrote:
| I think the answer is that much like an ad for a car or a
| mattress, the cold call isn't meant to take someone from zero
| to full interest, it's to find that one person in a hundred
| who's already thinking about it and just needs an opportunity
| presented to them.
|
| How many random people would you need to ask before you found
| someone who was pondering joining a gym this very morning and
| would love some more info about it?
| JohnFen wrote:
| My "No Soliciting" sign actually worked very well with
| everyone except religious organizations. I still haven't
| figured out how to deter them aside from saying "I'll listen
| to your sales pitch about God only after you listen to my
| sales pitch about Satan."
|
| Funny story, only once did that fail to get them to go away.
| In that case, it was a couple of Mormons and they took me up
| on the offer (leaving me wishing I actually had some sort of
| satanic sales pitch). They were very nice and pleasant
| company, and we ended up spending a couple of hours talking
| about the music of Frank Zappa.
|
| But I didn't become a Mormon.
| allenu wrote:
| That was smart of them to take you up on your offer! It
| reminds me of something I read that said if you are trying
| to sell something to someone and they're budging, ask them
| what it would take to change their mind. It's kind of a
| trick question, because often, whatever they request can be
| provided (or at least an equivalent), and once the
| salesperson provides it to them, it's very hard for them to
| say no. Most people want to appear consistent in their
| behaviors.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > That was smart of them to take you up on your offer!
|
| It really was. I think the reason they did and the others
| didn't was that they understood that I wasn't being
| serious, but the others thought I was. They laughed when
| I made the offer and said "sounds great!".
|
| But, to your point, once they agreed I wasn't really in a
| position to say "no, never mind" without losing a bit of
| face.
| lupire wrote:
| Mormon salesmissionaries are trained to do whatever you
| want. They'll mow your lawn for you.
| bjourne wrote:
| Yes, they work. Cold calling and similar methods are all
| about the the numbers so even if you are immune to them,
| enough people aren't. Pesticides isn't everyone's cup of tea,
| perhaps you'd be more swayed by Doctors without Borders
| soliciting donations for aid to Gaza or something? You want
| to tell Jenny the volunteer you're so cheap so can't make a
| $5 donation? And before you know it you have signed up for a
| $10 monthly donation. Jenny will send you a thank you card in
| the mail. :) Couple the emotional manipulation with some
| insistence and aggressiveness and you'll have lots of sales.
|
| BTW, I don't think you are immune. The only truly immune
| people are those that don't understand the language and/or
| have no money.
| nunez wrote:
| Sometimes the right QUALIFIED cold call/email at the right
| time with the right pitch can be very effective.
| bboygravity wrote:
| Not efficient compared to what?
|
| Compared to online marketing? Or cold emailing? Or talking to
| random people in the street?
|
| I can't actually imagine a more efficient way to get a
| significant nr of sales from strangers than cold calling
| personally.
|
| Of course contacting people who already know you is better, but
| the problem for a business is that in most/all cases that list
| of people who know you is not long enough.
| djohnston wrote:
| Old people are lonely. It's not complicated.
| gregschlom wrote:
| Probably because things are a bit different now than in the
| 80's and 90's?
|
| 1. We used to do a lot more business over phone calls back in
| those days, so people were more willing to entertain cold phone
| calls
|
| 2. Technology has allowed automating phone call scams, so we
| get a lot more of those nowadays
|
| 3. Calling internationally is dirt cheap now, so you can have
| call centers full of scammers in cheap countries
|
| 4. Everyone is using text messaging with their friends and
| family so phone calls are more likely to be scams
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| I remember every other TV commercial ending with an address
| for where to send my self-addressed stamped envelope.
| pixl97 wrote:
| To expand on point 3, unlimited long distance and VOIP. At
| least before 1984 things like long distance calls where HYPER
| expensive via AT&T domination of the long distance market.
| After the breakup the market slowly trended to unlimited long
| distance.
|
| After that point it required the invention of high speed
| internet and compression algorithms. Calling internationally
| over dedicated channels remained insanely expensive even
| after long distance mostly disappeared. Now the foreign call
| is handled via IP until it reaches the country of origin and
| is dumped into POTS via a local VOIP provider.
| 6510 wrote:
| After we've called you 50 times using different company names
| the deals get really competitive. Is Monday good for you?
| Tectosage wrote:
| This pitch worked much better in the 80s and 90s when
|
| A) most investors had a broker not just for advice, but because
| there was no easy way to trade individually or get live stock
| quotes until the internet was widespread and matured
|
| B) telephone sales in general were more common then and less
| likely to be a scam (Stratton Oakmont and other boiler rooms
| played a large role in shifting public opinion on this)
|
| C) The most desirable prospects (High Net Worth Individuals)
| were accustomed to dealing with legitimate brokers over the
| phone and being solicited by brokers from other legitimate
| firms in such a way
|
| D) The markets were raging in such a way that everyone had FOMO
| and was dying to hear of a hot new tip
|
| Almost nobody legitimate in the financial advising world
| acquires customers via cold call pitching anymore. Cold calling
| is still part of the toolkit for other sales niches (eg, tech
| sales) but it's a tough road with a low success rate.
| pixl97 wrote:
| >telephone sales in general were more common then and less
| likely to be a scam
|
| Caller had to pay long distance costs at the time and really
| until you got in the later 90s early 2000's did you start
| seeing unlimited long distance everywhere.
|
| Getting cold calls from random people way back then was super
| rate because it was expensive.
| Tectosage wrote:
| This is a great point. "More common" wasn't the best choice
| of words because it implies a higher frequency, which was
| not the case. "More acceptable/accepted/normalized" would
| have been better phrasing.
| cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
| I mean, if you want to be pedantic about it, I suppose it
| depends on whether or not "telephone sales" implies
| something actually being sold.
| gary_0 wrote:
| "Extremely cheap global telecommunications accessible to
| everyone" came with a lot of drawbacks we didn't consider
| at the time they started to become viable. Although all the
| spam in our inboxes should have been a clue.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Reminds me of getting a roco-call at the cabin (with a very
| rural area code) last year for some miracle septic tank
| treatment. Call said to press "1" for more info, but uhhhh,
| cabin still has a grandfathered party-line rotary phone
| from 40 years ago and I couldn't continue. Was wondering if
| it would work for the outhouse...
| JackFr wrote:
| Up until the early 90's if you wanted a stock price intraday,
| you had to call your broker. Your alternative was waiting
| until the morning and getting previous close from NYT or WSJ.
| Bluestein wrote:
| Totally.-
|
| PS. Brings back memories. Won an US, national high school
| "paper trading" contest back in the day. Out of 14000
| participants. Was quite proud ...
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Trick to winning is to make a couple of insane bets that
| end up panning out, yeah?
| Bluestein wrote:
| Can't speak to that, but I remember spending hours and
| hours and hours pouring over stock listings after hours.-
|
| I distinctly remember we used a newspaper that I think is
| still around called IBD "Investors Business Daily", and
| they had this system that worked really well ("C-A-N-S-L-
| I-M").-
|
| And I remember pouring over thousands and thousands and
| thousands and thousands of possibilities each day, and
| basically doing fundamental and technical analysis. I
| would filter out the candidates with broad technical
| analysis and then review the fundamentals of each,
| looking up each company on huge binders - yes, paper -
| from a subscription service the school had that had all
| financial and other info for all listed companies.-
|
| And it worked out. At some point, I caught a few big ones
| that just went ballistic. And it worked out great. One of
| the things it did is it taught me the _value of effort_.
| And I distinctly remember another thing, too. I
| distinctly remember being called by the organization to
| let me know I was winning, having won, all but
| certainly.-
|
| And the _day after that_ , right before the closing of
| the ranking, _running out of trades_ - because one had a
| limited amount of trades to perform during the
| competition. So I could not close a position I had, which
| had earned me a lot, so I wound up at a loss after having
| won, which, and I shall never forget this, ended up with
| my teacher basically saying, "I have seen how much
| effort you put into this, so I will give you -my account-
| to handle, so you can continue trading, so you will
| always remember that hard work and effort pays off in the
| end".-
|
| In the end I did loose my ranking and with too little
| time could not catch up, even with the second account.-
|
| So, I lost, but - in a way - I won, because I "won" that
| lesson ...
|
| And gush bump it, it's a lesson I've never forgotten.-
|
| So thank you, Mr. Brown.-
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Go ask the elderly why they love cold callers and scammers. It
| is beyond my comprehension how their minds work. If Moses split
| the sea in front of their own eyes they wouldn't trust him to
| lend him five dollars, but as soon as there's a scammer on the
| phone or on the internet, wallets open wide.
| djeastm wrote:
| I would guess many of them are lonely and are just happy for
| the attention.
|
| My father made a friend, an elderly man, who was being taken
| advantage of by some locals. Basically helping themselves to
| anything in his house, asking for cash, drives places, etc.
| And he was glad to give it because he had no one else in his
| life at the time. What's money with no one to share it with?
| Finally met my Dad, who, thankfully, got his friend to move
| out-of-state to live with his only surviving family before he
| passed
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Well, that's where the word "phony" comes from.
| lupire wrote:
| That's a phony etymology of "phony", which predates
| telephony.
| missedthecue wrote:
| It surprises me too. When my current company was getting off
| the ground last year I was cold calling to find our first
| customers for our MVP. This is in the B2B software space. I
| would make about 70 calls a day and it would shock me how many
| people not only pick up, but stay on the phone to hear me out.
| I landed a number of accounts this way to get the momentum
| rolling.
|
| And it was awkward for me too, I don't even have a background
| in sales. I'm sure a talented salesperson could have done much
| better than me at retaining their attention after the first
| opening sentences.
| immibis wrote:
| I think it's more welcome in B2B transactions because there
| are less ways to find products and less transactions in
| general. Whatever you're selling, there's a good chance the
| company didn't even know they wanted it until you reached out
| to them.
|
| It goes like this at trade shows too. I can find the
| available types of pizza by visiting any pizza shop, but to
| find the available types of 5G base station I'll probably
| have to attend Mobile World Congress, or they'll have to
| discover me (if I'm a more publicly visible and quite big
| company) and then call me.
| pavlov wrote:
| I remember getting a cold call in 2014 from (supposedly) an
| investment company in Hong Kong. I was curious to hear what
| kind of pitch they had for someone like me living in Finland.
|
| They claimed to have access to a block of NVidia stock
| available at a discount to the market price (I think it was
| around 10-15% off) and they needed investor funds immediately
| to buy the whole block. The minimum investment was $10k. When I
| sounded interested, my call was moved to a different young man
| who had a much more aggressive tone. That's where I hung up.
|
| After the call, I remember thinking: "This is actually a good
| investment idea. I should buy some NVDA, but not from these
| weirdos in Hong Kong."
|
| -- Dear reader, did I buy the stock then? Of course not. Looks
| like NVDA is up about 260x since that call. (Insane. I had to
| double-check that.)
|
| Imagine if someone actually sent $10k to this cold-calling Hong
| Kong company and just forgot about it. Now that $10k would be
| worth 2.6 million dollars. You see NVidia in the news and get
| excited about cashing out to buy a mansion... You call their
| phone in Hong Kong. "This number has been disconnected." No
| trace online of the investment advisor who got your $10k. That
| would sting far worse than just realizing early on that you'd
| been scammed.
| lupire wrote:
| This is a very common active Bitcoin "investment" scam today.
| icedchai wrote:
| Cold callers were less of a problem 30 years ago. Now the
| entire US phone system is open to competition. You might think
| that was a good thing, but it's also what allows cheap VOIP
| calls appearing to be from "local" numbers to bother you night
| and day.
|
| Bring back Ma Bell. She wouldn't have put up with this crap.
| proteal wrote:
| I think cold calling works decently for a certain subset of
| business people. There are folks out there that have genuine
| needs that salespeople can meet. At my last job, I didn't have
| authority to buy nor any real interest in the risk that such an
| opportunity could mean for the business. My boss, on the other
| hand, had lots of authority and would occasionally listen to
| pitches because they could benefit both parties. 95% of the
| time things didn't go further than the first call, but every
| now and then it would be a good fit. Anyone more senior than
| him probably didn't have the time for cold calls, but there is
| a sweet spot in the org where they can be effective. Since my
| boss had the ear of the budget setters, he could pitch them the
| idea and reap the benefit. Like other commenters have pointed
| out, cold calling and spam aren't so different in the sense
| that if they never worked, nobody would do them.
|
| For example, I worked with with the woman in charge of our
| modeling team. She had a big issue managing a growing,
| international workflow. They used spreadsheets when the team
| was smaller, but that solution didn't scale and was starting to
| show cracks. Her boss gave her significant budget to fix the
| problem, but she had no idea how to spend it. I told her that
| one call to a Jira sales rep (or equivalent) and all her
| problems would evaporate. One call could have potentially saved
| our firm tons of money and provided another firm with a very
| good, sticky customer. As far as I'm aware, she was so
| overworked as-is that she never reached out/researched it.
| tombert wrote:
| There was once a recruiter who cold called me and I ended up
| taking the job that they reached out about, so I guess it works
| sometimes?
|
| Obviously recruiting is a bit different, because of course I
| have to go interview at a place and whatnot, but it's the only
| example of where a cold call worked on me.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| This is like asking who would ever click on an online ad, yet
| they sell billions of dollars of merchandise every year. It's a
| numbers game.
| littlekey wrote:
| >Do we all kind of wish we worked at Stratton Oakmont for a year
| and made tons of money....? Probably.
|
| Gross.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| > If you can look past the $200M they defrauded from 1,500
| investors... they were actually a pretty successful sales team.
| jjulius wrote:
| The operative word being _" if"_. I'm kinda with OP here
| either way.
| the_af wrote:
| That reads a lot like "if you can look past the fact Famous
| Serial Killer murdered people, you have to admit he was
| pretty skilled with knives!".
| jameslk wrote:
| Please write more substantial and intellectually stimulating
| comments on HN:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| WolfeReader wrote:
| The article suggests that its author would have enjoyed an
| opportunity to work with the disreputable firm Stratton
| Oakmont, and that their motivation to do so is purely
| personal gain.
|
| And while this alone would cause us to doubt the character of
| the author, they then go on to claim that "we", the readers
| of the article, share this amoral viewpoint. Or perhaps
| implies that we _should_ share it if we don't already.
|
| I find this outlook to be reprehensible. Even thinking about
| it causes my stomach to tense.
|
| (There, 3 paragraphs that say exactly what the OP said in 1
| word. Happy?)
| jameslk wrote:
| > (There, 3 paragraphs that say exactly what the OP said in
| 1 word. Happy?)
|
| Yes, I think that's a better comment, sans the snark.
|
| Regardless, as another commenter pointed out, the quote is
| missing some important context:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41174244
|
| In general, I find the rest of the article more
| interesting, and focusing on the ethical leanings of the
| author less relevant. I'd rather see more discussion about
| the sales script.
| the_af wrote:
| While I did find the rest of the article fascinating -- I
| find the tricks and traps of conmen fascinating -- I do
| not think the missing context was at all important. It
| was actually a cop-out. Any Stratton Oakmont business
| acumen was overshadowed (and possibly caused by) their
| willingness to commit fraud. It's not something that can
| be glossed over.
| photonthug wrote:
| > focusing on the ethical leanings of the author less
| relevant. I'd rather see more discussion about the sales
| script.
|
| But why? Granted that discussion of ethical
| considerations are more likely to be divisive /
| inflammatory. But this is also pretty much the only
| direction to go if you want to make any discussion of a
| _freaking sales-script_ intellectually satisfying and
| promote curiosity /inquiry.
|
| This is literally just a guide to the most effective ways
| to manipulate people. We can try to avoid labeling that
| sort of thing as "evil", but then again if the abstracted
| psychology itself is what is interesting rather than the
| practical aspects of how to trick people, we should
| probably be looking at psych-papers instead of sales-
| scripts from famous scams?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| > Regardless, as another commenter pointed out, the quote
| is missing some important context:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41174244
|
| It's a stretch to call that "important context" given
| that:
|
| 1. There is an entire article between those two
| sentences.
|
| 2. The desire to work for the company is not couched by
| that conditional
| cqqxo4zV46cp wrote:
| By "intellectually stimulating", they meant "with enough
| verbosity and with a high enough frequency of multisyllabic
| words that this sewing circle of self-congratulatory
| computer operators feels intellectually engaged by it".
|
| "Gross" contributed just as much as the 50 highly upvoted
| "stochastic parrot" or "WFH or die" rants I see here every
| day, with the added bonus of its concise nature making it
| easy to read.
|
| HN needs more of these comments!
| fuzzer371 wrote:
| I mean, he's not wrong. I'd have loved to have worked there for
| a year and have made tons of money.
| jjulius wrote:
| Sure he is - he said "we all", but I count at least three of
| us in this specific chain who find it gross.
| tombert wrote:
| He also said "kind of" and "probably".
|
| Doesn't pretty much everyone wish that they had more money?
| I "kind of" want to steal a Lamborghini when I see them,
| but I don't do it because that would be unethical because
| robbing people is unethical. I don't think it's gross to at
| least think about it.
|
| I mean, I don't know, maybe "we all" was a bit hyperbolic
| but I don't think it was so bad.
| jjulius wrote:
| I can only speak for myself. I want to have enough money
| to be able to comfortably provide for myself and my
| family, while also allowing us to be able to go and do
| the things we love. And - that's where we're at. We're
| firmly "middle class" and I'm content with the amount of
| money I'm making. I don't really care if I had more (it'd
| be nice, sure, but I don't need it), and I don't really
| care about fancy, overpriced, high-end goods that are,
| essentially, just status symbols (eg, Lamborghinis).
| tombert wrote:
| I also have enough money, and I'm also firmly middle
| class, and I'm also able to afford to do stuff I enjoy,
| but if I won the lottery I'm not going to say "no" to the
| money [1].
|
| I don't really want to buy a Lamborghini because I agree,
| it's an expensive status symbol, but similarly if someone
| gave one to me for free, I'd take it because I think
| they're cool (or I could flip it for a lot of money).
| Sometimes I, if only for a moment, will think about how
| easy it might be to steal a Lamborghini and how it would
| be cool if I did.
|
| (I'm just using Lamborghini as an example though, replace
| it with anything that you think is cool but too expensive
| to actually justify buying).
|
| Does it make me a gross jerk for _thinking_ about it?
| Maybe, but I don 't think so; considering a bad thing
| isn't the same as doing that bad thing. It lives very
| firmly in my brain, and I'm quite confident that I
| wouldn't _actually_ do anything like that.
|
| [1] I don't actually play the lottery, just an example.
| the_af wrote:
| > _He also said "kind of" and "probably"._
|
| Those are "probably" "kind of" weasel words to make the
| assertion seem less gross when it is, indeed, very gross.
|
| This is not like dreaming of getting a Lamborghini for
| free. It's like "kind of" dreaming of living the life of
| a successful drug cartel boss. Gross.
| eschneider wrote:
| Right. You've got to live with the ethics of the things you do
| (and don't do.)
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't pick the most provocative thing in an article
| or post to complain about in the thread. Find something
| interesting to respond to instead._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| the_af wrote:
| Dang, in general this is a good guideline that you enforce.
|
| In this particular article, though, I think the OP's comment
| is relevant. "Gross" sums up pretty much how many of us feel
| about the quoted assertion and the overall tone of the
| article.
|
| Let's put it another way. Think about an hypothetical article
| relevant to HN (say, something about how you can "hack" a
| human's response to suggestions using pheromones or whatnot)
| analyzing how a famous rapist used these techniques, and
| included the statement "Was this person a rapist? Yes. But
| wouldn't most of us want to use these techniques on women?
| Sure!".
|
| Wouldn't it be appropriate to call such a statement gross,
| and wouldn't it also overshadow the rest of the article?
| tombert wrote:
| I mean, it's gross, but most of us work for monsters if you go
| far enough up the chain.
|
| For the last two years, I've been trying to break into the
| trading world, not because I think it's this hyper-ethical
| thing [1], but because it pays well and it seems interesting,
| and I'm not really ashamed to admit it. Does that make me a
| whore or a mercenary or sellout? Absolutely, there's really no
| getting around that, but I think if most people are being
| honest, we're all _a little_ selfish.
|
| I don't think I'm an _especially_ selfish person, and I would
| like to think I wouldn 't defraud anyone, but I certainly have
| worked for companies that used very questionable labor
| practices in developing nations where it's hard to justify
| outside of "it's really cheap and it's not illegal", an of
| course that upsets me a little, but fundamentally Tombert is a
| for-profit enterprise just as much as the business that hires
| me.
|
| Similarly, while it's obviously bad that they defrauded people,
| I don't think that that author was saying that it's good, or
| even good to want it. They said "kind of", sort of implying
| that "yeah, a part of me really would have liked to have a lot
| of cash and it would have been cool to get it", which I don't
| really think is that bad. I've _thought_ about directly
| stealing money from rich people before, it would be nice to
| have a million bucks, but I 've never done it because that
| would be unethical.
|
| [1] I've actually changed my opinions on High Frequency
| Trading, which I used to say was evil and I don't think that
| anymore. I'm still not 100% convinced that option trading is
| ethical though.
| standardUser wrote:
| I watched the film for the first time recently and was mostly
| disappointed. The best scenes focused on the sales tactics and
| the industry-specific insights, but at least twice in the film
| the main character starts explaining something and cuts himself
| of with "but you don't really care about all that". Then, on to
| more repetitive scenes about paying for sex and taking sedatives.
|
| And was I supposed to like the main character? In any way, shape
| or form? I feel I can relate more to full-fledged anti-heroes
| like Walter White or The Wire's Omar than I can to this basic
| jackass.
| Tectosage wrote:
| You might like the movie Boiler Room, which was inspired by
| Stratton Oakmont and the other penny stock shops that operated
| in the suburbs of NYC. Great ensemble cast and a much more
| grounded story.
| geoffpado wrote:
| > And was I supposed to like the main character? In any way,
| shape or form?
|
| No.
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| > And was I supposed to like the main character?
|
| No, the whole point is that you should not like him.
|
| However the film doesn't do a good job at that. I see often
| comments about how people are missing the point of this movie.
|
| You have this good looking guy with a Lambo, the hottest girl,
| a yatch, partying and all that, and then you see the downfall.
| But the movie focuses too much on the first part, and little on
| the latter, because obviously that's where the fun is.
|
| And IIRC the actual guy, Jordan Bedfort, spent less than two
| years in prison, and now gives motivational speeches and the
| like. Dare I say lots of guys would think it was worth it, and
| they aren't really missing the point, more like they don't
| agree with it?
| the_af wrote:
| > _However the film doesn't do a good job at that. I see
| often comments about how people are missing the point of this
| movie._
|
| To be fair, it's very hard in cinema to have people "get" the
| point without spoon-feeding it to them, which could fail
| anyway _and_ make it a worse movie to boot. I 'm sure you can
| think of tons of other examples.
|
| Who was it that said it's impossible to make an anti-war
| movie because you always end up making it look cool on screen
| [1]? I think it's the same with any movie parodying or even
| denouncing something, _unless_ it 's turned into a manifesto.
| And this also bit Scorsese with this movie.
|
| [1] Though in my opinion Netflix's "All Quiet On The Western
| Front" comes pretty close. I don't think anybody watched that
| movie and kept thinking war is cool or full of glory.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Francois Truffaut expressed that sentiment, though the
| various quotes I've seen attributed to him were not
| verbatim. The closest I could find was "Every film about
| war ends up being pro-war[1]"
|
| 1: https://www.newspapers.com/article/chicago-tribune-it-
| is-imp...
| gnulinux wrote:
| > And was I supposed to like the main character?
|
| The whole point of the movie you watched was that he's a
| disgusting piece of human garbage. There are tons of people
| around him that treat him like some kind of deity, but he's
| like the worst human being you can possibly know. It's a
| societal criticism.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>And was I supposed to like the main character?
|
| Do you watch every film through the lens of what you're
| "supposed" to feel? Some people watch this film thinking he was
| a hero, some people think he was a scumbag, plus a million
| opinions everywhere in between. Feel how you want to feel, it's
| a story not an educational video.
| motohagiography wrote:
| the psychology of sales is fascinating and alien to me. I admire
| friends who are great salesmen, and really actually enjoy doing
| some sales myself because who doesn't like having something
| valuable to show and share, but there's a side to it I couldn't
| handle as a living.
|
| some people, and a lot of them in corporate envs when they buy
| something, they like the excitement of spending the money, but
| they want the feel like it was taken from them, and that they
| aren't responsible for it going wrong. they want the excitement
| without the responsibility, literally to be seduced.
|
| nobody wants the truth, the risks, details, or anything real,
| they want a story that lets them press the money button without
| judgment or blowback, and that's what most sales are. I'm too
| neurotic for it and make a living doing other things, and tech
| people bitch about sales and marketing all the time, but as an
| art, I respect and appreciate it.
| gumby wrote:
| Cold calling is the hardest! It's probable my greatest weakness
| (of many!) as an entrepreneur. Not just cold sales calling but
| any equivalent. I don't like to get a random call so I feel I'm
| interrupting the person at the other end.
|
| I am fascinated by employees I've had who love cold calling and
| are great at it. They are even energised by it! Most have a
| mirror in their cube smile on your call and the other person can
| hear it through the phone). One thing about all of them I've
| spoken with: they are certain that the person they're calling
| _needs_ our product (and if not they 're happy to get off the
| phone as quickly as possible so they can call someone else).
| Maybe the Stratton Oakmont sales folks thought that, though my
| impression was that instead they saw the callee as a sheep to be
| shorn.
|
| I am astonished at people who can just make a friend or at least
| an interesting connection while waiting in line for the bathroom.
| popcalc wrote:
| >Stratton Oakmont sales folks
|
| Just call them what they were -- con artists.
| gumby wrote:
| The blog post is more sympathetic, but I probably should have
| just said that.
|
| With most scams I can't believe most people involved didn't
| know.
| xedarius wrote:
| I watched a video where a guy asked people how many moons the
| earth has, the person on the video said seven. I am not surprised
| in any way the script had huge success.
| ajkjk wrote:
| > On average, sellers spend 23.8 hours (or 52%) of their week
| creating messaging.
|
| Stuff like this is like... bait, right?
| pjdemers wrote:
| Anyone serious about stock trading at the time knew who they were
| and what they did. They also advertised heavily in print. So
| anyone who stayed on the call for more than short time had some
| interest. I had coworkers who "invested" with them.
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| I thought about it throughout my life why I am not just flipping
| to sales, specially when I was short on money.
|
| Each time, I reminded myself that I lack the emotional fortitude
| to take the amount of rejection sales people get. I am too vested
| and convinced "left brain" person to be able to understand then
| accept rejection. The thing I am pitching makes perfect logical
| sense to me.
|
| Basically, to be in sales, specially cold calling, one must have
| very, very thick skin, and ignore the majority rejection.
| colordrops wrote:
| I thought I was similar to you until I founded a startup and
| started doing sales. It didn't take as long as I thought to get
| used to it. It's a muscle you build with any customer facing
| job - yeah, better to think of it as a muscle rather than a
| skin callous.
| jameslk wrote:
| Some of the tactics in the script are explained in _Never Split
| the Difference_ which I highly recommend for sales but especially
| negotiation (the article author also mentions the book author,
| Chris Voss).
|
| The sales script doesn't seem to have anything nefarious really.
| Just some tactics to keep the call going and typical early sales
| qualification to move a prospect to the next stage of a pipeline
| or out of the pipeline. Typical SDR/BDR work. I'd assume what's
| said in later stages is more juicy.
|
| The mildly interesting insight to me is how the call starts with
| trying to get the prospect to schedule a follow up using an
| incentive (the market report), before getting into the qualifying
| questions, which are meant to determine if the prospect is going
| to be a match for the offer. It makes sense from the standpoint
| you really want another call scheduled so you don't get their
| voicemail and you might lose the opportunity to schedule that
| later in the call.
|
| I wish the author added text from the actual sale past the
| qualification stage, but I'm guessing that wasn't really
| scripted.
| uncivilized wrote:
| Thanks for the book rec. Is there anything in this article that
| isn't contained in the book apart from the incentive?
| jameslk wrote:
| The attention grabbing and objection handling pieces are
| discussed in Never Split the Difference, amongst other ways
| to negotiate a deal. Basically ask lots of what/how questions
| until the other party negotiates themselves to your position.
|
| The rest of the script is just qualification questions, which
| you can find written about everywhere if you look up BANT
| (Budget, Authority, Need, Timeline) and MEDDPICC (Metrics,
| Economic buyer, Decision criteria, Decision process, Paper
| process, Identify pain, Champion, and Competition).
|
| I wish I had a good book recommendation for qualifying, but
| it's the easier part of the sales process: you're just asking
| questions and listening, setting yourself up for the next
| stage. Once you know whether the prospect has a problem you
| can solve, then you launch into the real sale, generally a
| presentation or demo tailored to the prospect's problems and
| goals.
|
| YC posted a pretty good, compact video on enterprise SaaS
| sales recently, which explains the typical sales lifecycle at
| a high level and contains further resources:
| https://youtu.be/0fKYVl12VTA
| uncivilized wrote:
| Thanks for taking the time to give me all these resources.
| I've got a lot of reading and watching to do.
| jameslk wrote:
| No problem! As an outsider to sales myself, I only
| realized after a friend who does this for a living as an
| account executive explained to me how much of sales is
| simply asking good questions and being a good listener.
| Quite opposite of what I thought sales was and much
| simpler when you think about it that way. Good luck!
| gffrd wrote:
| First, great book recommendation: _Never Split the Difference_
| is packed with insights about negotiating, bargaining, and
| generally cooperation and decision-making. Reader: if you
| haven't, read it.
|
| On starting with incentive before qualification: this is
| actually quite common. See: Cutco knives, CDs by mail, most
| current online courses/programs. Heck even startups doing lead
| gen offering analyses.
|
| This is both what gets people invested (I jump at the free
| thing, so I'll jump through the rest of hoops now) AND what the
| seller uses to establish credibility (if they're giving way
| something this valuable, imagine what else they have!). A gift
| to someone implies you see them as important/valuable, and
| people eat that shit up.
|
| There's a lot of ego/insecurity at play in sales. The person
| being marketed to wanting to feel seen/discovered/worthwhile,
| and the seller playing into it.
|
| Reminds me of the Tony Robbins recording that made the rounds
| again recently [1]. Shocking that this stuff works ... but it
| does.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY_zyLEiNYk
| Gimpei wrote:
| I always wondered why all these sales emails use exactly the same
| language. Right now my inbox is filled with "quick questions".
| now I have an answer: apparently people write whole books on
| individual word choices.
|
| It seems the sales industry would benefit from considering the
| possibility of heterogeneous effects. I can see these techniques
| working for some, but they are off-putting for me and are a great
| way to get immediately blocked.
| tamimio wrote:
| The stock market is just a wealth or money transfer scheme from
| the naive rich-wannabe to the wealthy who can manipulate the
| market. Sure, a long-term investment might work in the meantime,
| until it's no longer a "long-term" sometime in the future.
| TeaBrain wrote:
| The US stock market specifically has had immense growth over
| the last several decades due to consistent US and international
| liquidity inflows. The story hasn't been the same for other
| markets internationally.
| lupire wrote:
| Blocked by a login wall.
| hnpolicestate wrote:
| I never "cold" called but I lukewarm called expired real estate
| listings before using scripts.
|
| They definitely work. Listed total strangers after a phone call.
| Remember it's a % game. If you call 30 people might get 20 angry
| no's, 5 friendly no's, 3 so so leads and 2 hot leads.
| IndySun wrote:
| [delayed]
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