[HN Gopher] I was a 20-something dethroned dotcom ceo that went ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       I was a 20-something dethroned dotcom ceo that went to work at
       mcdonald's (2000)
        
       Author : kamphey
       Score  : 166 points
       Date   : 2024-08-05 14:55 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (web.archive.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (web.archive.org)
        
       | mtmail wrote:
       | "10/[20]00-10/[20]00: counterperson, mcdonald's" Does that mean
       | he worked there for one month or less?
       | 
       | I checked his Linkedin, the job isn't listed. Jan 2002 he started
       | a new photo startup ("50M+ members posted a billion photos"),
       | then co-founder&CEO of meetup.
       | 
       | It's a good time capsule of what his thinking was in 2000 but I
       | wonder if it was more than a break. At my office job I, too,
       | often think I should drive an Uber or deliver food for a month as
       | a break.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | Is working the counter at McDs something you add to a LinkedIn
         | profile? Do people moving from the counter at McDs to
         | BurgerKing use LinkedIn?
        
           | reactordev wrote:
           | Exactly. I have dozens of jobs I don't list on LinkedIn. I
           | wouldn't list McDs either. Your LinkedIn is your resume.
           | Something tailored towards the career you choose. These off
           | jobs and hustles don't belong in my opinion. Leave that for
           | the story telling part of the interview when they ask.
        
             | dumbfounder wrote:
             | He was founder of Meetup, acquired by WeWork for $200m in
             | 2017, my guess is for cash. They only raised $18m so that
             | should be a good exit for founders. I don't think he is
             | using his LinkedIn profile to find a new job. I would
             | expect him to use his LinkedIn as more of a bio, and
             | include the McD's experience.
        
           | robofanatic wrote:
           | Why not? Its a nice PR story about early life struggles.
        
             | RandomThoughts3 wrote:
             | He wasn't struggling. He had sold his former company
             | properly. He was just more or less taking a break by
             | working at McDonalds.
             | 
             | Some people said it was a bit disrespectful at the time
             | because he didn't need neither the money nor the experience
             | and was only doing it for the kick of it. I tend to agree.
        
           | tennisflyi wrote:
           | Such a classist comment
        
             | sandspar wrote:
             | Guy who makes $200,000 a year is aghast that some people
             | actually work at McDonald's
        
               | port19 wrote:
               | In our little IT bubble where 3+ interviews are the norm,
               | it's fine to envy the straightforward hiring in food-
               | service.
               | 
               | Ofc we still got the better deal overall and should only
               | complain in hush tones
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | I'm haven't worked at McDonalds for 20+ years, but I
               | think that the top manager at each store is making $200k,
               | and the top 4 are over $150k - it goes down fast below
               | that though. I'm reasonable sure that if I had stayed at
               | McDonalds I'd have never had a year where I made less
               | than I made in tech. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be
               | out, but they pay those they care about well enough, and
               | there were some good things I miss.
        
               | bumby wrote:
               | > _I think that the top manager at each store is making
               | $200k, and the top 4 are over $150k_
               | 
               | Curious what this range is based on? According to ~3.8k
               | self-reported salaries from Glassdoor, the McD manager
               | salary ranges from $37k-$64k with a median of $48k.
        
               | Nuzzerino wrote:
               | I don't like to speculate but I could imagine managers at
               | some franchises receiving a bonus based on profits or
               | sales.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | The top manager. The shift managers make about that, but
               | the top managers who mostly do paperwork and are rarely
               | seen on the floor do better.
        
               | brailsafe wrote:
               | Pretty sure my manager at Starbucks made $50k at most. Up
               | from there probably higher but not at the store level
        
             | Nuzzerino wrote:
             | Is that a word now?
        
         | Maxatar wrote:
         | He worked there for a few weeks:
         | 
         | https://www.businessinsider.com/scott-heiferman-startup-care...
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | Well that explains why he felt nobody appreciated his
           | efforts. The first few weeks at a job like that you are
           | pretty much just in the way. It takes some time to learn the
           | routines and operate the equipment so you can work quickly
           | without thinking.
        
             | oceanplexian wrote:
             | Agree that's kind of *^%% move, I'd have too much self
             | respect to start working somewhere for a few weeks than
             | bail.
             | 
             | Doesn't matter if it's a food service job or a FAANG.
             | McDonalds was doing him a solid by offering some kind of
             | employment for a person presumably down on their luck with
             | zero experience. Hiring people is a huge expense and risk
             | even for a small franchise.
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | I dunno. Sounds like you've never bitten off more than
               | you can chew. I have found myself in a situation before,
               | where my continued participation would be an immediate
               | low-grade harm and my rate of improvement was slow
               | because I had volunteered for something well out of my
               | wheelhouse. So I had a dilemma: give up and disappoint
               | today, forcing my replacement; or carry on in my
               | incompetence and risk the whole endeavor.
               | 
               | Quitting early _did_ bruise my self-respect: people were
               | depending on me! But hanging on, just to protect my
               | feelings, would have been a much greater regret.
        
               | abduhl wrote:
               | Are you implying that working at a McDonalds counter was
               | more than the future founder of meetup.com could chew?
        
               | wizzwizz4 wrote:
               | I believe I can revolutionise multiple fields. I cannot
               | cut it working at a fast food restaurant. Ability is not
               | one-dimensional.
        
               | AndyNemmity wrote:
               | McDonalds can fire you for any reason in my state. At any
               | time.
               | 
               | When you're renting yourself to authoritarian
               | institutions like corporations, there is no "self
               | respect" required for you to always take the best deal
               | for yourself whenever possible.
        
               | SoftTalker wrote:
               | > McDonalds can fire you for any reason in my state. At
               | any time.
               | 
               | Yeah but if you show up for your scheduled shifts and are
               | on time, sober, don't steal, and are moderately
               | competent, they won't.
        
               | soulofmischief wrote:
               | The crossover between people with those qualities and the
               | people who find themselves in a position where McDonald's
               | is a good deal is quite small. Often times these people
               | have been failed by society on a number of fronts and
               | have a very different perspective on the arrangement.
               | This isn't to absolve people of personal responsibility,
               | but we are much more of a product of our environment than
               | most of us realize.
        
               | SoftTalker wrote:
               | Those are the _minimum_ expectations for any job. If you
               | can 't do those things you will forever be dependent on
               | others to take care of you unless you were born into very
               | fortunate circumstances.
        
               | beaglesss wrote:
               | I would say stealing is the only of those that would
               | exclude you from any job. Lots of stuff requires
               | intermittent random periods of competence on your own
               | schedule. For instance you could buy a dilapidated house
               | and drunkenly fix it during moments of clarity and make a
               | fat profit. Or fix and flip cars. Really anything
               | involving independently flipping stuff.
        
               | wccrawford wrote:
               | And you aren't mouthy with other workers, managers or the
               | customers.
        
               | Nuzzerino wrote:
               | > in any state
               | 
               | FTFY
        
               | lmm wrote:
               | Even just in the US that's not the case in Montana AIUI.
        
               | paulpauper wrote:
               | high turnover is common. he was not doing anyone a
               | disservice.
        
         | brianshaler wrote:
         | I used to work in software sales in a call center. I hated my
         | job and the highlight of my week was the Monday burrito special
         | down the street at a place where the employees shouted "Welcome
         | to Moe's!" whenever customers entered. When thinks ultimately
         | fell apart at that job, I went to Moe's and somehow managed to
         | get a job despite a lack of food service experience. I lasted a
         | while--months, I think--but eventually got fired.
         | 
         | I don't know that there's a moral to that, but I guess I tend
         | to look at the urge to bail and go to unskilled (or really,
         | differently-skilled) labor less as a virtuous thing and more a
         | sign that some in-place re-evaluation is needed with mental
         | health in mind.
         | 
         | I still occasionally say "I should become a farmer" but take it
         | more as a sign that there's something I probably need to
         | address within my current situation and/or I need to get back
         | on the wagon of going on morning walks.
        
           | euroderf wrote:
           | Maybe you needed to work with your hands for a while.
        
           | gopher_space wrote:
           | > somehow managed to get a job despite a lack of food service
           | experience. I lasted a while--months, I think--but eventually
           | got fired.
           | 
           | Bit of a tangent; I switch between knowledge work and labor a
           | bit, and the biggest mistake I see people make is not
           | altering their caloric intake or sleep schedule.
        
             | bulletninja wrote:
             | Could you elaborate on that? Altering caloric intake and
             | sleep schedule as a reaction to what? And how would you
             | change between the two regimes? Increase/decrease how much?
             | etc.
        
               | mathgeek wrote:
               | Not GP, but being on your feet all day will lead to
               | needing more calories and sleep for proper recovery.
        
               | jorvi wrote:
               | I can't speak to sleep, but you are wrong about the
               | calories.
               | 
               | Kurzgesagt has a really interesting video on it:
               | https://youtu.be/lPrjP4A_X4s
               | 
               | The caloric part quite blew my mind. I know its not the
               | most scientific source but digging deeper in it it does
               | seem to match up.
        
       | hackeraccount wrote:
       | They should add a date to the title - I saw the $5 and hour and
       | was confused. I swear I remember McDonald's starting people at
       | $10 an hour even around that time.
        
         | wil421 wrote:
         | It says dotcom in the title so it must be around 1999/2000 give
         | or take a couple years.
        
         | awad wrote:
         | NYC has had shockingly low minimum wage:
         | 
         | https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-minimum-wage/
         | 
         | I specifically remember being a teenager around that time and
         | trying to math out a part time job at McDonalds for 5.35 an
         | hour and realizing how tough it all was.
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | In 2000? Yeah that might be somewhat typical for fast food
           | wages depending on locale.
           | 
           | Minimum wage is a floor. It doesn't mean you can hire at that
           | rate.
           | 
           | Minimum wage in my state is the federal minimum ($7.25/hr)
           | but restaurants here have to pay about double that to get
           | anyone.
        
       | huac wrote:
       | His most recent LinkedIn role: Fulfillment Center Associate I,
       | Part Time, Amazon.
        
         | your_challenger wrote:
         | This guy is a legend!
        
         | kotaKat wrote:
         | I've done that as a break, once. It was fun to sling boxes
         | around for a month on outbound dock. Tune out, grab a box, scan
         | a box, tote the box, scan the bin barcode, repeat.
         | 
         | Making bucks, getting exercise, working inside. The discount
         | was nice, and I still use the comfy composite toe shoes when I
         | need to do some heavy work.
        
         | vecter wrote:
         | Confirmed: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheif/
         | 
         | From May 2022 - Jan 2023 * 9 mos
        
         | ralferoo wrote:
         | There seems to be a certain irony that working at a fulfilment
         | centre sounds like one of the least fulfilling jobs you could
         | do.
        
       | karaterobot wrote:
       | If his timeline and application are true, he was technically
       | still the chairman of his company while working at McDonald's, if
       | in name only.
       | 
       | > 10/99-10/01: chairman, i-traffic (an agency.com company)
       | 
       | > 10/00-10/00: counterperson, mcdonald's (4th & broadway, nyc)
       | 
       | I sometimes think about going back to work at food service jobs
       | after I retire, just to keep busy. I enjoyed those jobs as a high
       | school and college student, and I wonder if I still would, or if
       | I might be too spoiled now. And if my back was tired at the end
       | of a shift when I was 21, I guess now I might just die.
        
         | jprd wrote:
         | I dream about working at Toys R Us again, at least a few times
         | a month, 20+ years on. I can no longer put the cheapest metal
         | swing set on my shoulder and carry it out to a customer's too-
         | small car.
         | 
         | But damn it was fun.
        
           | Scoundreller wrote:
           | Somehow the retail arm of the chain still exists in Canada.
           | 80 stores remain.
           | 
           | Note to self: invite US visitors with kids to toys R us.
        
         | swozey wrote:
         | I'm around the service industry daily/nightly, used to bartend,
         | lots of my friends still bartend. Apart from the social aspect
         | of actually enjoying working with your coworkers, cool
         | regulars, general night life fun, etc, the world has
         | collectively lost it's mind since 2020 and there is not a
         | chance I would ever do industry again.
         | 
         | The amount of drama, fights, and just people in general being
         | rude assholes since 2020 is astronomically higher than it was
         | when I bartended around 2005-2010 and way higher post 2020.
         | 
         | I used to bartend on dirty 6th in austin a decade ago and I
         | won't even walk down that street today. Society has lost its
         | mind.
         | 
         | I live in a busy bar neighborhood here in denver and we just
         | had a door guy get shot and killed 2-3 weeks ago, literally on
         | my street at a restaurant I go to every few weeks 4 blocks away
         | in broad daylight on a Sunday. A 14-15 year old (iirc) running
         | around on a scooter harassing people shot him in a scuffle.
        
           | bogota wrote:
           | I still live in denver but in the very outer burbs. I moved
           | from market st about a year ago and it is so much better out
           | here. Denver needs to gets its downtown under control. I used
           | to love nightlife and going out to bars but after 2023 when
           | places were all open again I never went out again as it
           | didn't feel safe after 9pm.
           | 
           | Really hoping they turn it around.
        
             | swozey wrote:
             | This isn't a $XCityBad thing. It's happened to drunk crowds
             | everywhere and is completely irrelevant to location or
             | whether you're even downtown. I guarantee the two step bars
             | in the burbs are filled with drunk drama too nowadays. I
             | was in Austin, Tampa, Dallas, Houston and Denver over the
             | last decade and go to a few of them yearly. Denver is far
             | away the safest out of those and I'm glad to be here. I
             | live in 5 points, which I'm sure you think is a big scary
             | place.
             | 
             | I will happily trade seeing a person living in a tent and
             | being able to go out and do an incredible amount of various
             | things literally every single day without driving to living
             | in the suburbs, but glad you like it. Cities are scary.
             | 
             | Can't walk home after 9pm.. lmao.
             | 
             | I'm more afraid of sitting at the airport nowadays than
             | walking around downtown. That's where the real psychos are
             | nowadays. Or hotel bars when traveling. Awful, rude
             | impatient people who act like they've never left the house
             | before. 2020 really did a number on peoples
             | aggression/patience levels and industry people are taking
             | the brunt of it.
             | 
             | Hell, if you look at the /r/boomersbeingfools subreddit
             | it's all of the people living in the burbs being harassed
             | by old angry grandparents constantly. I rarely see that
             | crowd out here.
        
               | reaperman wrote:
               | I live in one of the cities you mentioned. I think part
               | of the problem is that many of the "fun" areas have
               | become expensive and bring a different crowd, or people
               | feel entitled to a certain experience because of the
               | prices they're paying.
               | 
               | The bars that still have $2-3 drinks (yes, these exist!)
               | still have a wonderful, self-policing crowd. I also used
               | to bartend in the same time range as you, at the
               | equivalent of a 6th street bar.
        
           | marcuskane2 wrote:
           | > the world has collectively lost it's mind since 2020
           | 
           | Covid causes brain damage. The common symptom of "loss of
           | smell" was found to actually be due to covid infection of the
           | neurons in brain & cranial nerves. Obviously "brain fog" (or
           | memory issues, fatigue, lack of focus, however people
           | articulated it) is due to damage to brain.
           | 
           | I wonder how society moves forward. We didn't get the movie-
           | horror-story virus that turns people into zombies, but we did
           | get a virus that leaves many people with diminished emotional
           | regulation, attention span and ability to reason.
        
             | swozey wrote:
             | > I wonder how society moves forward.
             | 
             | I'm nervous about this generation of kids who had to grow
             | up locked in a house.
        
           | subsubzero wrote:
           | I think its just a huge burden that certain states are
           | putting on people along with dramatically increased cost of
           | living due to insane govt spending. People are really hurting
           | right now and tempers are short.
           | 
           | - Housing has gone up 50-60% in the past 3 years.
           | 
           | - Groceries have also gone up 30-40% along with restaurant
           | prices.
           | 
           | - Despite the job market for professionals being the worst
           | its been since 2008 you have the media gaslighting everyone
           | talking about a "vibecession" and saying the economy is the
           | strongest its ever been.
           | 
           | - Crime and lawlessness has been out of control, we are
           | approaching 90's levels of crime in a few short years.
           | 
           | - Interest rates are the highest they have been in 30+ years,
           | all loans etc are now very expensive(see housing costs as
           | house prices have shot up).
           | 
           | - Arsonists running wild in California/Oregon/Washington
           | causing record wildfires and releasing tons of CO2 into the
           | air.
           | 
           | - Homelessness hit record high (up 12% from 2022 to 2023)
           | 
           | - All these things are causing a huge drop in quality of life
           | and pushing people to the brink. So many people in my circle
           | of friends - engineers, scientists and mgmt that are out of
           | work I have never seen anything like this.
        
         | bobthepanda wrote:
         | I feel the same way, but rather about being a receptionist.
         | Which is an option if you are concerned about manual labor.
        
         | colechristensen wrote:
         | I did this between jobs (and slightly overlapping) for a while,
         | about 6 months. It didn't pay the bills and I got a seemingly
         | permanent repetitive stress injury from working in the kitchen,
         | but it was fun and an excellent change of pace. My god I was
         | never confused about how to do a task and when I left work I
         | was just done, there was no todo list hanging over my head.
        
         | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
         | > he was technically still the chairman of his company while
         | working at McDonald's, if in name only.
         | 
         | He discusses this in the blog post:
         | 
         | > in my interview, the manager (ralph) asked if i can handle a
         | fast-paced, intense environment. i said yes. he looked at my
         | resume and asked about my current part-time job as chairman at
         | i-traffic. i said, "it's an internet thing." he said "ok" and
         | then asked me for my waist size.
        
           | sandspar wrote:
           | Did he really use lowercase? The status-seeking, high status
           | lowercase mixed with the "outside looking in" account of
           | working class people written for the benefit of other rich
           | high status people, Jesus.
        
             | xeromal wrote:
             | His whole site uses lower case. Seems like a stylistic
             | choice. Check it ou
        
         | hackeraccount wrote:
         | Yeah. My first real job was at a restaurant and there was
         | something totally zen about the work. It wasn't exactly turn
         | off your brain but I would just be too busy to think for hours
         | on end. Plus the people I worked with were all over the map but
         | they were all a hell of a lot of fun to be with. You'd work a
         | long shift and then hang out in the parking lot after drinking
         | beer or go out to a party.
         | 
         | Ah... it's sad to say but I probably just miss being 20.
        
         | bg24 wrote:
         | The key is "Enjoy". There is no substitute to meet people,
         | smiling, happy, no politics, no desire to grow or get a raise.
         | Plus fixed hours and you are not responding to
         | slack/emails/oncalls after that. This is not stress, this is
         | fun as long as you do not have to pay large bills.
         | 
         | Yes, it also gives you ideas for new businesses.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | From what I've seen, it's not the same. I worked at McDonalds
         | in high school and college. It was fun for the most part. But
         | most of the employees were like me. Young, not really adults
         | yet, pretty carefree.
         | 
         | The people I see at McDonalds today are not the same at all.
         | Mostly older, disinterested, no energy, no spark, marginal care
         | for personal appearance. You rarely see a high schooler or
         | young person working there. It's just depressing to even be in
         | there watching them.
        
           | kranke155 wrote:
           | If McDonalds is to exist, it would make sense it would be a
           | young person's job. To think that there are large swathes of
           | the population who can do no better in prospects is
           | depressing indeed.
        
           | konfusinomicon wrote:
           | my 6 month stint at mcdonalds was pretty amazing as a
           | sophomore in high school. it was 2 no nonsense managers and a
           | few chill managers that corraled a bunch of teenagers and
           | young adults that liked to get high and have fun. which we
           | did with reckless disregard and it was AWESOME! some crazy
           | shit went down after close in the ball pit over there lol. i
           | got fired by my friend because me and a coworker came in
           | after a smoking sesh in the woods to get some free food and i
           | was supposed to be working that evening. i brushed it off and
           | asked for some free food which we got. it was a great first
           | job and i made several connections with people that im still
           | friends with to this day. also, i ate so much free mcdonalds
           | in that 6 months that i have only had it a handful of times
           | in over 20 years since.
        
           | HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
           | That's interesting. I wonder if it's related to the
           | corporation. My local McDonald's hires people who seem to be
           | mostly in their early 20's. OTOH, the Dairy Queen that's just
           | a few minutes down the road seems to rarely have anyone older
           | than 19 or so working there. Average age at DQ seems to be
           | around 16.
        
             | Scoundreller wrote:
             | McDonalds probably has more hours to cover per week, all
             | hours of the day and more year round need.
             | 
             | A DQ may be open early and year round too, but _really_
             | needs people in summer evenings and weekends when high
             | schoolers are most available.
        
           | gwbas1c wrote:
           | It's a franchise; so how each restaurant and region hires
           | will vary.
           | 
           | In 2004 I drove between MA and Chicago, and found a very
           | stark difference in every one. In Chicago McDonalds was
           | hiring people who were coming out of poverty and helping
           | build work experience. In PA, the McDonalds were well oiled
           | machines and run with pride.
           | 
           | In MA the McDonalds have always been first jobs for
           | immigrants / refugees.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Yes I'm mostly going on local observations. Sometimes on a
             | road trip I'll still run across a McDonald's that's well
             | run, clean, and the employess act like they care at least a
             | little bit. But it's much more rare at least in my
             | experience.
        
         | ilamont wrote:
         | There was a movie subplot that featured something like this as
         | part of the main character's midlife crisis. Something with
         | Kevin Spacey. American Beauty?
         | 
         | People who retire from professional jobs often do pick up part
         | time work that would be classified as "menial" because they
         | want to keep engaged and/or make a little extra money. I've had
         | older Lyft drivers who retired from professional backgrounds
         | including one guy who was a comptroller for an engineering firm
         | in Boston. The WSJ sometimes profiles retirees who fall into
         | this bucket as well. IIRC there was a former CEO who couldn't
         | stand being at home and decided to work at the local airport
         | information counter, maybe even as a volunteer.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | Food service needs a lot of people to work the 2 hour lunch
         | shift from 11-1 and then go home. You get out of the house, get
         | to talk to real people. Doctors have noticed that people who
         | sit around doing nothing tend to die earlier than those who
         | stay busy, and people who talk to others also do better, so
         | that 2 hour shift could add years to your lifespan. That you
         | get some extra spending cash is a nice bonus, but not why you
         | do it. (at 16 you do it because they are about all that will
         | hire you and you need then money)
        
       | hollywood_court wrote:
       | Reminds me of Armie Hammer selling timeshares in the Caribbean.
        
       | your_challenger wrote:
       | > Nobody thanked me.
       | 
       | Do you think this is still true?
       | 
       | This resonates with me. I used to work in tech, but I recently
       | joined my family's brick-and-mortar business. No one says thank
       | you, no one appreciates you. I find it amazing that this culture
       | of thanklessness exists even in the US (I'm in India) in non-tech
       | jobs.
       | 
       | P.S. I worked at all fronts of the business before joining the
       | management. Worked at the counter, as a delivery personal, as a
       | sales executive, etc. And when I say "Nobody thanked me" I mean
       | no one at the company appreciated my efforts.
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | I'm curious what qualifies as "nobody thanked me".
         | 
         | If I told someone "good job" that's not really thanks in my
         | mind. I probably wouldn't say "thank you for making the
         | fries"... but I would say "good job".
        
           | meiraleal wrote:
           | And that's being the job, it wouldn't make sense to repeat
           | it, multiple times, multiple days
        
           | your_challenger wrote:
           | It's more that no one appreciates the work. Not the customers
           | (which I don't expect), nor the management.
           | 
           | Businesses like these are about showing up everyday - day in
           | and day out. Unlike in tech, you can't be just smart and find
           | "smart solutions". There is no magic. And so people are
           | always in a state of normalcy. And any kind of "smart"
           | execution takes a lot of time to see its results.
        
           | Brian_K_White wrote:
           | As a customer, I always say thanks for whatever someone did
           | for me, and it I always feel like smacking another customer
           | whrn they are on their phone _while_ giving an order to
           | someone at a counter, like the human behind that register was
           | actually just part of the register. Just an npc, or a
           | toaster. The company they work for does see them that way and
           | treats them that way, but we have no excuse for doing the
           | same.
           | 
           | As an employee, or a boss, I don't find it ridiculous to
           | thank or be thanked for random tasks occasionally, especially
           | when they are a little out of order. No one needs to be
           | worshiped for making fries, and it's techically simply within
           | the expected job description for the manager to tell you to
           | go out back and wash the rubber floor mats or something
           | slightly not your usual task, and yet never acknowledging
           | anything ever is also just being an inconsiderate ingrateful
           | assshole.
           | 
           | It's worth it not to be that guy even if only for the purely
           | self-interest reasons of having more and better choice of
           | employees who do a better job on average and give you less
           | grief when you need a favor like to cover someone else's
           | absense or a large job etc.
           | 
           | Asking instead of telling at least sometimes, and saying
           | thanks at least sometimes, has to be genuine too. If it's
           | just bs noises that don't actually mean you are being
           | accomodating and flexible then don't bother. Even though the
           | boss is the boss, and has the right to just didctate, and
           | even if the thing you're asking is really all else being
           | equal a command, the reason for asking is not just as a
           | pacifier so someone feels respected when thy're not, it's to
           | allow for the possibility that there actually is some
           | problem. 99% of the time there should be no problem and thr
           | answer is expected to be "yep got it", by asking, the person
           | is far less stressed on an ongoing constant level feeling
           | that if there ever was some problem, they could just say so.
           | 
           | It turns dictation into cooperation. Can you restock that
           | station later? I have to pick up my kid. Can you do it now if
           | I take you off this other thing? ok. ok. Much better that
           | way.
           | 
           | Thanks for cooking the fries, or even good job on those fries
           | does sound silly, because it is, because it kind of misses
           | the point and isn't what they're talking about.
        
           | petsfed wrote:
           | I think part of what they mean is that some retail managers
           | seem utterly incapable of giving positive feedback in anyway
           | except to sandwich a criticism.
           | 
           | Like yes, it can stave off bad responses from volatile
           | colleagues to sandwich bad feedback with good, but if that's
           | the only place that positive feedback appears, then the
           | listener learns pretty quick to just ignore the positive
           | feedback. Its evidently disingenuous, and its deeply toxic to
           | assume that "because you're working at
           | McDonald's/Walmart/etc, you're not smart enough to pick up on
           | that".
           | 
           | Certainly, "thank you for making the fries" is poor thanks.
           | But "I saw how you hustled to get the fries out during that
           | rush, that made $other_employees jobs a lot easier. Thank you
           | for that" is good. Too often, retail employees just get the
           | "thanks" and not the "here's why I appreciate it".
        
         | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
         | It depends on where and when you work.
         | 
         | When I was a teenager in the 90s I worked cashier at McDonald's
         | in an inner city black neighborhood. On Sunday mornings we got
         | a big crowd of people coming to/from church, and I'd say the
         | majority of them were very kind and courteous - I even got a
         | tip a few times. I also worked Saturday afternoon/evenings and
         | it was a different story.
        
         | josefresco wrote:
         | > Nobody thanked me.
         | 
         | I don't buy this for a second. I thank everyone for even the
         | most trivial of interactions and I'm certainly not alone (in
         | the US)
         | 
         | Buy a Coke at 7-11 - "thank you!" Take package from UPS guy -
         | "thank you!" Waiter takes order - "thank you!" Support rep puts
         | me on hold to look up issue - "thank you!" Pretty much every
         | retail/store interaction - "thank you!"
        
           | your_challenger wrote:
           | People like you do exist. And it is a joy to serve you.
           | 
           | When I said "nobody thanked me", I mean the management
           | didn't.
           | 
           | (edited for clarity)
        
             | digging wrote:
             | This comes across as quite rude, FYI. You may want to
             | clarify and be more specific.
        
               | your_challenger wrote:
               | Thank you. I hope I fixed it.
        
             | josefresco wrote:
             | Thanks for the clarification - see there I go again!
        
           | neilv wrote:
           | I couldn't figure that one out.
           | 
           | Maybe he was speaking of management, franchise, and McD
           | corporate?
           | 
           | Or maybe it was a quirk of that store in NYC, or our own
           | experiences are otherwise not representative?
           | 
           | Or maybe he was writing more loosely, about a "thankless",
           | poorly appreciated, poorly compensated, purely transactional
           | job.
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | My partner and I were normally polite when picking up ice
           | cream from a local dairy a few weeks back. "No rush, take
           | your time." Nothing overly fancy from a manners or politeness
           | perspective. Was offered free ice cream for "being the nicest
           | folks we've had in a long time." Didn't take the free ice
           | cream of course, but thanked the folks working.
           | 
           | I suspect overall impoliteness has seen a bit of an uptick,
           | from my casual observation of the sociomacro (especially
           | during airport and air transportation transit and use), and
           | that gratitude is not expressed in casual interactions as
           | perhaps it previously was.
           | 
           | https://hbr.org/2022/11/frontline-work-when-everyone-is-
           | angr... ("Frontline Work When Everyone Is Angry")
           | 
           | https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-28930-001 ("Catching
           | rudeness is like catching a cold: The contagion effects of
           | low-intensity negative behaviors.")
        
           | OJFord wrote:
           | I find it so jarring when visiting - not so much thanking (I
           | would say thanks/cheers in those situations in the UK too)
           | but the way it's taken (or so it seems) with such sincerity
           | or like it was a huge thing that really needed to be thanked.
           | 'Thanks.' -- _oh you 're so welcome!_
           | 
           | It's completely arbitrary really, it's just really noticeable
           | and, well, jarring when you're not used to it/used to
           | different. I'm sure it's similar in reverse (I thanked him
           | and he was so grumpy about it, didn't say a word! (Or he just
           | said 'cheers' back, I didn't buy any alcohol?)).
        
           | agiacalone wrote:
           | It's anecdotal, but my wife was a Disneyland cast member for
           | ~5 years. She claims that the words 'thank you' were a rare
           | occurrence to hear from guests...
        
           | brailsafe wrote:
           | You may be in the U.S, but are clearly from Canada
        
         | mikestew wrote:
         | I took it to mean that no _manager_ ever thanked them. Because,
         | like sibling comments, I can't believe no one like myself and
         | siblings ordered a burger and said "thank you". Hundreds of
         | customers at that counter everyday, _someone_ had to have
         | uttered those words. But management, OTOH...
         | 
         | (Alternatively, "no one" being defined as "the vast, vast
         | majority of customers". That I could believe.)
        
         | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
         | I've been doing nonprofit (free) work for decades.
         | 
         | I almost _never_ get thanked; even after doing tens of
         | thousands of dollars ' worth of free work.
         | 
         | That's fine. That's not why I do it.
         | 
         | This reminded me of _American Beauty_ , for some reason...
        
         | jdietrich wrote:
         | Here in England, there's a very significant cultural divide
         | between North and South. One of the key symbols of that
         | cultural divide is whether people thank the bus driver when
         | disembarking. In London, thanking the driver would make you a
         | bit of a weirdo; in Newcastle, not thanking the driver would
         | make you dreadfully antisocial.
         | 
         | I imagine that there's a huge difference in this respect
         | between a McDonalds in Manhattan and one in a small town.
        
           | another-dave wrote:
           | In London I often see people thanking the driver. At least
           | outside of rush hour & outside zone 1
        
             | harry_ord wrote:
             | Yeah I see it all the time on buses where you exit by the
             | front door.
        
           | frereubu wrote:
           | I think it's a central London / outside central London thing.
           | Just in my personal experience people in both Brighton and
           | Somerset thank the driver, and I bet there are plenty of
           | other places like that in the south.
        
             | sph wrote:
             | I picked up the habit of saying "cheers drive!" after
             | living in Bristol.
        
           | rsynnott wrote:
           | In Dublin, thanking the bus driver is such an ingrained thing
           | that Dublin Bus use it in their job ads ("Get thanked for a
           | living" was a recent one). The switch to two-door buses has
           | complicated this, obviously.
        
         | xkcd-sucks wrote:
         | > Do you think this is still true?
         | 
         | Personal opinion, when intra org reciprocity is not discussed
         | or measured, quality plummets as a necessary response to
         | stress/burnout feedback loops at _every_ scale.
         | 
         | Coming to terms with this """insight""" etc. was tl;dr life
         | changing and exactly how is still an open question
        
         | hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
         | Yep. (I'm in the US.) The transactionalization of aspects of
         | both work and life is depressing. I think it's a confluence of
         | multiple factors that may or may not be present in all
         | circumstances: a lack of manners, a power imbalance, and/or a
         | view that someone who provides a service is a widget rather
         | than a human being.
         | 
         | Some data points:
         | 
         | - My next door neighbors in a small town residential
         | neighborhood are poorer, but don't say "please" or "thank you"
         | for anything.
         | 
         | - An entitled Brahmin dude I used to work with at a Big Name
         | University(tm) grew up with a dozen servants never gave
         | gratitude or used pleasantries.
         | 
         | - Some other employees at a MAANG I used to work for as well as
         | other residents in the apartments I lived in had an attitude of
         | "too cool for everyone else" and didn't use pleasantries.
         | 
         | Without rapport and humanity by showing a little real decency
         | and compassion, life and business interactions become
         | commoditized and cold, and that intangible cool or goodwill
         | evaporates and nothing much holds people to each other or
         | people to a brand.
        
       | sobelius wrote:
       | Honestly, I think he's living the dream -- no tech headaches,
       | just flipping burgers and taking it easy. Really makes me
       | think...
        
         | gwbas1c wrote:
         | I don't understand why this was "dead". It's not a statement I
         | fully agree with; but the insight isn't something I'd want to
         | keep off of HN.
        
           | bigstrat2003 wrote:
           | I believe that flagged+dead indicates people reported the
           | comment to death, whereas just "dead" indicates the poster is
           | shadowbanned.
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | You've never worked in fast food have you? "Taking it easy" is
         | not how it works. You're on the clock 100% until you clock out,
         | no rest, no breaks, if a burger takes more than 60 seconds to
         | land on the customer's tray the boss is on your ass. If you
         | miscalculate how many patties to slap on the grill and either
         | run out or you have to toss some because they've sat in the
         | steamer for more than 15 minutes you are in for such a dressing
         | down. The machine tracks from the start of the order till it is
         | closed out so he knows. He has some bullshit regional contest
         | thing with all of the other franchisees in the area that he has
         | to win if he wants to make that boat payment. If there are no
         | customers you are cleaning, even if you just cleaned it. Plus
         | you had to spend like half of your time training new recruits
         | or filling in for them when they stopped showing after like two
         | days. I did one summer of that in college and it cemented me in
         | my tech career path. I couldn't deal with the stress.
        
           | Apocryphon wrote:
           | You could work the night shift, though that of course has a
           | huge trade-off.
        
         | sph wrote:
         | Working in restaurants and hospitality is hell on Earth. Work
         | long hours for peanuts and get shouted at.
         | 
         | I'd rather be a gardener or a farmer.
        
         | commandlinefan wrote:
         | That was a plot point in American Beauty... got to say, at the
         | point I was in my life when I saw it, I empathized with him.
        
         | brap wrote:
         | I think when you work low paying jobs you quickly learn that
         | the worst part is how most people treat you. Customers,
         | managers, etc. We in tech take for granted how we're treated.
         | 
         | The baristaFIRE fantasy seems to miss this part.
        
       | supahfly_remix wrote:
       | He went on to found meetup.com (see his bio at
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Heiferman).
        
       | nunez wrote:
       | Honestly this is something I would like to do once I feel
       | "financially ready." I want to be a barista, at least for a
       | little while. Like this CEO outlined, it's really easy to be
       | detached from the real world when you're working super high
       | paying jobs.
        
       | uptime wrote:
       | I met Heifermann once during a project and I thought he was a
       | grounded person. I remember one thing he did was paying not for
       | ad slots, but to change your background to a dalmation spotted
       | print for a promotion, with a link. This was long before CSS,
       | etc.
       | 
       | He made his money just when the idea of value being divorced from
       | real product to virtual metrics, "chasing eyeballs," etc. was
       | getting hot. The days when you sold a huge contract by showing a
       | CD ROM of the website you were never going to achieve, to a
       | client who had no idea what they were buying.
       | 
       | This guy was much more honest than the norm. The McD and meetup
       | stuff reflects the fact that he kept people in the equation.
        
       | sandspar wrote:
       | Slumming it, basically. You can leave whenever you want, the
       | people around you are stuck there.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-08-06 23:00 UTC)