[HN Gopher] The medieval 'New England' on the north-eastern Blac...
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The medieval 'New England' on the north-eastern Black Sea coast
(2015)
Author : Thevet
Score : 107 points
Date : 2024-07-31 16:14 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.caitlingreen.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.caitlingreen.org)
| achierius wrote:
| The Skaldic Bard has a (non- historical, but openly so -- his
| shtick is composing songs in various dead languages) cool song
| themed on this fun fragment of history.
| https://youtu.be/1TKbQRwcLm0
| usrnm wrote:
| I wonder why there is no archeological evidence found. At least,
| there is none in the article
| trhway wrote:
| may be it is mixed-in :
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths
|
| "In the report made by Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq in 1595 on the
| Crimean Goths, he claims to not be able to determine whether
| the Germanic peoples of Crimea were Goths or Saxons;"
|
| and that - 10th century Vikings - all the way to the Black Sea:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion#/media/File:V...
|
| So discerning the specific, even that large, Saxons or Vikings
| arrival and settlement from all the others Saxon/Goth and
| Viking presence there may be not much possible.
|
| And politically today - on the orders of the Russian state the
| Russian historic science these days futilely tries to find
| evidence of pre-Viking statehood in the Rus as the real history
| of Rus state being founded by Vikings doesn't work well for the
| Russian nationalism, and having more Vikings (or Saxons) in the
| picture doesn't help that official goal, especially on the
| lands that Russian propaganda these days claims as
| "historically Russian" and with that claim being used as the
| pretext for the war that Russia is currently waging for those
| lands.
| paganel wrote:
| It was normal for the Vikings/Scandinavian population to come
| to the Black Sea, it wasn't "al the way"/far, because in
| terms of river transport that was one of the fastest ways to
| travel over large continental distances. And thanks to the
| Dnieper and the smaller rivers North of the Pripyat Marshes
| that journey was nothing out of the ordinary for those
| populations.
|
| In the opposite direction (i.e. from South to North) there's
| this famous travel of Ahmad ibn Fadlan who wrote about the
| Vikings living on the Southern part of the Volga.
|
| > His account is most notable for providing a detailed
| description of the Volga Vikings, including eyewitness
| accounts of life as part of a trade caravan and witnessing a
| ship burial.
|
| I've read the French translation of his work ( _Voyage chez
| les Bulgares de la Volga_ [2]) and I have to say that it is
| quite interesting.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan
|
| [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_chez_les_Bulgares_de
| _la...
| trhway wrote:
| >it wasn't "al the way"/far, because in terms of river
| transport that was one of the fastest ways to travel
|
| the map i linked to isn't "travel", it is "settlements".
| They settled as far as Black Sea and traveled even farther,
| like the South Volga you mentioned and even raided Iran
| shores of the Caspian Sea.
| paganel wrote:
| I sea now. I have very big doubts about the Vikings
| settling for good and, what it is more important, in big
| enough numbers as to "cause" the coloring of a big
| portion of the map North of the Black Sea around the
| 10th-11th century, for the simple reason that that was
| Khazar and then Pecheneg and then Cuman territory, i.e.
| mostly Turkic populations. As a matter of fact Azov
| itself is a Turkic toponym, as is Bakhmut. There were
| some Scandinavians there but in the middle of other, more
| numerous , populations
| sklargh wrote:
| I sea what you did there.
| trhway wrote:
| >I have very big doubts about the Vikings settling for
| good and, what it is more important, in big enough
| numbers as to "cause" the coloring of a big portion of
| the map North of the Black Sea around the 10th-11th
| century, for the simple reason that that was Khazar and
| then Pecheneg and then Cuman territory, i.e. mostly
| Turkic populations.
|
| There were not much people to start with (and 500 ships
| in a raid is a like 5000-10000+ warriors which is larger
| then many cities at the time), and you're mixing 2 types
| of populations - all those people were nomadic dry land
| people while Vikings were settling along their trading
| and raiding routes along rivers and sea shores. The Azov
| Sea and the Don river were on their route into Caspian
| Sea. Vikings even tried, yet failed, to settle further
| into Caucasus :
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_expeditions_of_the_
| Rus...
|
| "The Rus' launched the first large-scale raid in 913. A
| fleet of 500 ships reached the southern shores of the
| Caspian Sea through the country of the Khazars. .... They
| sailed down the Dnieper River into the Black Sea, then
| into the Sea of Azov, then up the Don River past the
| Khazar city of Sarkel, and then by a portage reached the
| Volga, which led them into the Caspian Sea.[8]"
|
| "During the 943 expedition, the Rus' rowed up the Kura
| River, deep into the Caucasus, defeated the forces of
| Marzuban bin Muhammad,[11] and captured Bardha'a, the
| capital of Arran. The Rus' allowed the local people to
| retain their religion in exchange for recognition of
| their overlordship; it is possible that the Rus' intended
| to settle permanently there.[12] According to ibn
| Miskawaih, the local people broke the peace by stone-
| throwing and other abuse directed against the Rus', who
| then demanded that the inhabitants evacuate the city.
| This ultimatum was rejected, and the Rus' began killing
| people and holding many for ransom. The slaughter was
| briefly interrupted for negotiations, which soon broke
| down.[13] The Rus' stayed in Bardha'a for several
| months,[14] using it as a base for plundering the
| adjacent areas, and amassing substantial spoils.[15]"
| thriftwy wrote:
| I'm not sure how descending from Poles or Bulgarians is more
| preferable for Russian nationalism than descending from
| Vikings.
|
| Funnily enough, even Poles don't like descending from
| themselves and keep inventing Sarmathian lineage.
| trhway wrote:
| >descending from Poles or Bulgarians
|
| Russian nationalists would sooner commit suicide :) No,
| they go for those mythical strong, smart, just and great in
| all the other respects Eastern Slavs who lived in the
| forests of Eastern Russia, Belarus and Central Ukraine
| before coming of Vikings. A nationalistic history is always
| a mythology mixed with ideology and has nothing to do with
| historical science - and in this case all those supposedly
| great Slavs were in reality just a bunch of forest tribes
| who were brought by the Vikings into the light of
| civilization. That of course doesn't sit well with Russian
| nationalists rejection of the West and declaration of
| themselves a master [at least over Slavs and other nearby
| people] race.
| nl wrote:
| There are maps (mentioned in the article), and accounts of the
| "Saxi" (which might have meant "the Saxons").
|
| What other evidence would you expect to show what language the
| inhabitants spoke? Religious text (ie, almost all writing)
| would have been in Latin or Greek. Coins were shared across
| regions.
| usrnm wrote:
| Are saying that archeology is a pseudoscience?
| Jun8 wrote:
| This was a super interesting read. Serendipitously, I'm reading
| the book _Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World_ which
| mentions that when Austrians captured a scouting Mongolian party
| outside Vienna during the largest extension of Mongolian invasion
| into Europe, one of them turned out to be an Englishman! There's
| even a book about him: https://www.amazon.com/dp/184212210X. See
| this SE History question and answers to Lear more:
| https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/43967/who-was-th...
| sklargh wrote:
| So glad to see Dr. Green here. A very high quality blog that I've
| learned quite a bit from. Rigorous but accessible for non
| academics (Lincolnshire themed Roman, Early Medieval Britain
| ACOUP?).
|
| If HN is looking for a nice, non-technical, read this is a
| rewarding place to do it.
|
| edit - her book is very readable, recommend
| 6LLvveMx2koXfwn wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=caitlingreen.org
|
| Dr Green has been doing ok on HN for several years.
| wuzkangz wrote:
| We were Kings and fecal matter
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| This region of Crimea was also home to the last remaining Gothic
| (extinct East Germanic branch) speakers, who may have continued
| to speak their language until the 16th, 17th century. A Flemish
| diplomat wrote down some of their speech in 1562 (may have been
| 2nd hand info) and much of what he wrote seems to either have
| West Germanic influence (Dutch, German, English) or was coloured
| by his Flemish biases.
|
| But you wonder if there might have been interaction between the
| local Goths and the incoming Anglo-Saxon speakers, who surely
| would have recognized each other as distant linguistic
| relatives...
| retrac wrote:
| The region in question is where the eastern Goths lived:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths and they kept
| speaking Gothic until at least the 1700s in pockets.
|
| Old English was probably still close enough to Gothic at that
| time as to be somewhat mutually intelligible - at most a gap
| similar to Dutch and German today. They may have integrated into
| local society more easily than it seems they would at first
| glance.
|
| (This is speculative. There's nothing particular to support this
| other than coincidence in timing and geography.)
| fsckboy wrote:
| in the period of Viking migration which is essentially
| contemporaneous, there would have been a fresh infusion of
| "Danes" in the Black Sea area
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion
|
| and in terms of communication, there is that Danish linguist
| who has a pretty good argument in favor of middle and modern
| English being more heavily influenced by Danish grammar than
| Anglo Saxon. Although these were Anglo Saxons, the
| influence/familiarity with Danish might have been well
| established
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZV1BOcGiV0
|
| (audio) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBio7c95QQE
|
| https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-history-languag...
| ChipperShredder wrote:
| They had even more recent colonies there as well. In some real,
| legal senses, Britain and British nobility have better, and
| legally enforceable claims on that region than the Ukrainians
| living there now, many of whom are merely transports shuffled
| into the area by the USSR.
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