[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How to go about reverse engineering and defo...
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Ask HN: How to go about reverse engineering and deformulating a
beverage at home
I'm traveling in Japan and tried a canned soda which I loved, and
would love to be able to recreate at home as it isn't available
stateside. I've searched for food labs near me that could help me
reverse engineer it, but I'd prefer to see how close I can get in
just my kitchen.
Author : World_Peace
Score : 28 points
Date : 2024-07-31 01:27 UTC (1 days ago)
| edgineer wrote:
| You might like Claire Saffitz's attempts to recreate snacks [0]
| in the kitchen.
|
| She generally found it very difficult and laborious to get right.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS6YJJfBYag
| Tabular-Iceberg wrote:
| Maybe you can hack up a crude gas chromatography-olfactometry[1]
| setup at home?
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography-
| olfactometr...
| mannyv wrote:
| I'd start by buying a few. Open one and let it decarbonate. It's
| must easier to discern flavors for uncarbonated drinks.
|
| As an example, Coca-cola has cinnamon in it, which is almost
| impossible to taste when it's carbonated. It pops out when Coke
| goes flat.
|
| Most sodas will have a citrus component. Japan has odd ones like
| Yuzu, so try to pick up some essential citrus oils that aren't
| normal in your home country and are plentiful there.
|
| Then really, just put it onto stuff that you know the flavor of
| and taste/smell it to see if you can tell what's been added. Dip
| some white bread into it and see if anything comes out, etc.
| Don't be afraid to swirl it around in your mouth (like wine) or
| just breathe it in.
|
| FYI, I was just in Japan and realized that their Sprite has a lot
| more lime than other countries, which I didn't really like.
| Normally Sprite is great in hot weather, but the lime just didn't
| work in the heat IMO.
| petargyurov wrote:
| 1. Buy the ingredients listed on the back
|
| 2. Look up basic proportions & recipes for canned sodas online,
| just to get an idea about how much to use
|
| 3. Start experimenting, varying the ratios of each ingredient in
| each batch
| Scoundreller wrote:
| And look up the product labels in different countries because
| they may have to break down things in ways that other countries
| don't. Hopefully the formulation is the same!
| dhosek wrote:
| Often they aren't. The obvious one is sugar vs HFCS in
| Mexican vs American Coke.
|
| Then, of course, there's the big change from the original
| Coke recipe vs what we have today with cocaine being replaced
| by caffeine.1
|
| [?]
|
| 1. I'm pretty sure that in no country does Coke still use
| cocaine.
| jkaplowitz wrote:
| Regarding Coca-Cola and cocaine: you're probably right
| about the psychoactive chemical cocaine, but Coca-Cola does
| actually still use a trace amount of coca leaf extract in
| Coca-Cola in (at least) the US.
|
| How does this work legally? There is a (single) company
| that is licensed by the DEA to import coca, and they sell
| the non-psychoactive part to Coca-Cola. I think the
| psychoactive part goes toward DEA-approved research
| purposes, but I'm less sure about that.
|
| Coca-Cola's competitors do not receive or use coca through
| this process, only Coca-Cola.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| The psychoactive part still has (decreasing) medical uses
| and it goes to pharma:
| https://nationalpost.com/news/coca-colas-cocaine-
| connection-...
|
| I suspect the flavouring component is so diluted nowadays
| that its kept because it's a valuable sideline having
| that import license, and adds to the mystique a bit.
| cirrus3 wrote:
| uh huh... 99% of the flavor is going to come from "Natural
| flavors" which is never defined.
| cirrus3 wrote:
| I'm fairly certain this is an AI-generated answer.
| hooverd wrote:
| Sucks for people who naturally write with ChatGPTs weirdly
| chipper cadence.
| GlickWick wrote:
| Until you realize "Natural Flavors" does all of the heavy
| lifting!
| blackkat wrote:
| What is the soda in question ?
| tuckerpo wrote:
| You could ship a sample out to get a liquid chromatography mass
| spectrometry analysis done.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Then when it comes back with 4000 molecules as a result,
| figuring out which 2 spices are responsible for 3993 of those.
| throwup238 wrote:
| A lab specializing in analyzing food will be able to help
| with that too.
|
| Usually only a few aromatics will make up the bulk of the
| flavor and they're well known molecules, especially if
| they're synthetic.
| snickerbockers wrote:
| I wonder if you could use a centrifuge to separate the drink's
| ingredients into layers like nurses do with blood samples?
| hooverd wrote:
| What soda. Is it calpis?
| ktallett wrote:
| What is the soda? As many Japanese sodas have recipes online
| already. You don't need to go to the lengths of reverse
| engineering.
| throwup238 wrote:
| First stop would be a mass spectrometry service to analyze it
| with an LCMS. If you can't find one cheap enough, check your
| local universities for a professor or postdoc that might be
| willing to help - the issue is usually finding out who has the
| mass spec and getting some time on it.
|
| If none of that is a possibility, try to find a certified
| sommelier, preferably a class where you can have a teacher and
| students taste test it. Their training involves learning to
| distinguish a bunch of aromatic compounds using an essential oil
| kit so they might be able to isolate some of the flavors.
|
| If you really want to do it using just the stuff in your kitchen,
| you could order an aroma training kit and try it yourself.
| Otherwise, I'm afraid reverse engineering it yourself is really
| hard. There are over 2,600 flavoring food additives recognized by
| the EU, alone. The benefit of doing it with a trained sommelier
| is that they can help figure out substitutions even if they can't
| identify the exact flavor.
| chung8123 wrote:
| I follow https://www.youtube.com/@Artofdrink He recreates recipes
| and gives the basics on how to replicate drinks.
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