[HN Gopher] Will Figma become an awkward middle ground?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Will Figma become an awkward middle ground?
        
       Author : ridd_design
       Score  : 84 points
       Date   : 2024-07-24 19:22 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
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 (TXT) w3m dump (www.dive.club)
        
       | egypturnash wrote:
       | How shitty is Figma's current "export as css/html/js"
       | functionality? How many people do you think they have working on
       | improving that? How many of the people Figma is paying to fool
       | around with AI do you think are experimenting with building an AI
       | stuffed full of css/html/js tokens, and other functionality for
       | improving Figma's ability to pick up working css/html/js, tweak
       | it, and re-export it?
        
         | refulgentis wrote:
         | I don't know if these are supposed to be leading questions, or
         | questions combined with assuming an answer to make a point, but
         | tl;dr code export is good.
        
         | ridd_design wrote:
         | How incentivized is Figma to invest in a world where fewer
         | developers pay for seats is the real question
        
       | usaphp wrote:
       | my problem with Figma is that it became too technical and code-
       | like. By the time I finish setting up layouts, paddings etc...I'm
       | catching myself thinking - why didn't I just code it straight up,
       | could have been as fast.
        
       | game_the0ry wrote:
       | This will come off as a humble brag, but I will say it anyway.
       | 
       | Right now, I am tasked with building a PoC for a new product my
       | team wants to build by the end of the quarter. We have one big
       | problem - we have no designer on staff. But we do have a design
       | system with a library with re-usable react components and
       | tailwind css, and those are things I am pretty good with. So I
       | have full autonomy when it comes to turning product requirements
       | into a live demo. I was able to accomplish quite a lot in a short
       | period of time with no designer and just my own taste in design +
       | ux. And product stakeholders were pretty satisfied, which means
       | the outcome was productive.
       | 
       | So from my perspective, Figma is not only an awkward middle
       | ground, but not even necessary for me.
        
         | ctward wrote:
         | I think in the future product designers will shift into two
         | factions. Live code generation and design system development.
         | Design systems will be the backbone of any quality AI interface
         | generation system. How we build those design systems will be
         | the interesting part. Will most people unify around
         | material/carbon or will they invest in house teams to ensure
         | their UX doesn't fall behind the competition?
        
         | brigadier132 wrote:
         | My experience is that you should never code and design at the
         | same time for non-trivial products.
         | 
         | When I'm doing design work, there is a product spec already
         | defined but it almost always changes once initial designs are
         | completed and people have a better understanding of how it
         | would work in practice.
         | 
         | If you were to code and design at the same time you would
         | inevitably writing some logic as well and this often turns into
         | wasted effort.
        
           | asoneth wrote:
           | Came here to write the same.
           | 
           | I used to teach at a UX grad program where students were
           | required to learn both design and development. But doing both
           | on the same project was almost always a mistake -- the
           | designer has to deeply understand and advocate for the end-
           | user's mental model while the developer has to deeply
           | understand the technical model and constraints. Attempting to
           | do both often end up conflating them or compromising on at
           | least one of them.
           | 
           | Sort of like how many lawyers are skilled enough to handle
           | either prosecution or defense but few do both on the same
           | case.
           | 
           | I think there's a Nielsen/Norman article on this but can't
           | find it at the moment.
        
           | game_the0ry wrote:
           | > When I'm doing design work, there is a product spec already
           | defined but it almost always changes once initial designs are
           | completed and people have a better understanding of how it
           | would work in practice.
           | 
           | In my case, I am just iterating on the fly with our end-
           | user(s) (we also do not really have a product owner).
           | 
           | It may not have been obvious, but I am working on an app for
           | internal stakeholders, not for external customers (the
           | customers that my company serves).
           | 
           | So when it comes to designing for external end user +
           | customers, design is serious and necessary consideration,
           | which is where Figma would come in.
        
           | jauntywundrkind wrote:
           | Worrying about wasted effort spent breathing some life into a
           | mockup/prototype
           | 
           | vs Worrying about creating some figmentary Figma imaginarium
           | that wont translate well into the actual app
           | 
           | I do think there is a risk, it's just not of throwaway code
           | (the effort of that throwaway is vastly smaller than what
           | this path replaces). The risk is more how & where the future
           | could be constrained. If the prototype starts becoming the
           | app, there's some risk the prototype imposes poor app
           | architecture. If the prototype starts becoming the app the
           | effort to mock/prototype new ideas risks becomes higher.
           | 
           | I strongly agree with the parent about getting in there &
           | trying things semi live, not being afraid to wade in. The
           | component offerings are excellent today, don't wire most of
           | them up, just throw them on the screen as best you can & put
           | in minimal stitching or hardcode a forward/back through
           | states.
           | 
           | The fear of this going bad is way outsized. The design
           | industry needs to get where the puck is going & stop playing
           | around with fancy abstract design tools.
        
             | brigadier132 wrote:
             | I don't code and design at the same time because I've
             | noticed from experience that it's slower and gives worse
             | results than designing first and then coding.
             | 
             | The wasted effort is one factor to it but another factor
             | may be that I'm able to just focus on design and ux more
             | and not think about implementation.
        
         | fantasybuilder wrote:
         | This has always been the case. Zero to one with a single
         | developer or a very small team is the most exciting part of the
         | lifecycle of a project. Medium to large size companies have
         | very different challenges.
        
       | snide wrote:
       | I feel seen!
       | 
       | I'm one of these codey designers. The madness that exists in
       | modern design teams (I used to manage a team of 50!) is insane.
       | There's a lot of time spent on "design systems" in Figma. Very
       | generally Figma is not the website, and the effeciency additions
       | of building tools there is a lost cause.
       | 
       | Modern CSS and your JS frontend of choice is a lot quicker and
       | more powerful for component building and general design work.
       | There's way too much to do with media break points and
       | tokenization there. There's a misguided group of designers that
       | are learning a lot of esoteric Figma features that don't
       | translate into something users will ever touch.
       | 
       | 10 and 15 years ago designers needed to learn the code part too.
       | Somewhere along the way we put them in a corner and made learn
       | these prototype tools.
        
         | chatmasta wrote:
         | Agreed that in most cases all this extra work and attention to
         | detail is essentially wasted effort that never sees the light
         | of day.
         | 
         | But it's possible to extract value from it if you have a
         | culture where designers build prototypes, and you can use those
         | prototypes for user testing, feedback, demos and pitches, while
         | the code is being built. But it's rare that companies have this
         | culture.
        
           | ketzo wrote:
           | Really good (and underdiscussed) point that Figma designs are
           | not _just_ for consumption by developers.
           | 
           | I know this is a cliche phrase, but when you're trying to
           | align stakeholders (PM, manager, VP, dev lead) on a product,
           | it is genuinely very useful to have really nice, hi-fi
           | mockups to make sure everyone is talking about exactly the
           | same stuff.
           | 
           | It's also definitely a scale thing. If you have 500
           | developers, it's probably worth putting in some extra sweat
           | just to make sure they're all using the _exact_ same button,
           | etc
           | 
           | If you have 10 devs... yeah, hard to justify a super-
           | perfectly-polished design system for every single bit of your
           | frontend, IMO.
        
         | uxcolumbo wrote:
         | I wouldn't call Figma a prototype tool. It's pretty bad at
         | prototyping sophisticated interactions.
         | 
         | They are canvas based clickable mock-ups with fancy transitions
         | and a few more things.
         | 
         | But it can't generate / export to HTML which comes in handy
         | when you need to use it offline.
        
           | dexwiz wrote:
           | Figma puts codegen on plugins and partners. These either
           | generate generic html or, more commonly, platform specific
           | code.
        
         | tiffanyh wrote:
         | > There's way too much to do with media break points
         | 
         | As someone who has been handwriting HTML/CSS for literally
         | 25-years, I'm still shocked dealing with media break points
         | isn't easier.
         | 
         | It easily snowballs into you having 3 different CSS
         | (phone/tablet/desktop).
         | 
         | I wish there was something akin to 'light-dark' (where you can
         | specific a different value conditional on the environment) but
         | would be trigger based on window size.
         | 
         | e.g.                 font-size: window-size(1.2em, 1em, 0.8em)
         | 
         | Which would translate to, if the browser window is small
         | (phone), use 1.2em ... if browser window is large (desktop),
         | use 0.8em
         | 
         | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/color_value...
        
           | lstamour wrote:
           | If you want responsive page elements that change styling as
           | you reflow the page, we have that now - container queries -
           | https://developer.chrome.com/blog/css-ui-ecommerce-cq but
           | it's still somewhat new, and nobody's existing design systems
           | support them yet. People (myself included sometimes) still
           | prefer using JavaScript for this stuff. It'll change over
           | time, though. (Also I've been wishing for this for almost two
           | decades now, so I'm glad to see it arrive!)
           | 
           | Edit: Though even simpler than that is the width media query,
           | which I think you might be looking for:
           | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
           | US/docs/Web/CSS/@media/widt...
        
             | tiffanyh wrote:
             | Thanks for sharing.
             | 
             | I've just found that approach very clunky in practice,
             | hence my comment about it snowballs into effectively having
             | 3 different CSS (phone/tablet/desktop) and wrapped in media
             | width queries.
             | 
             | Though maybe I use it incorrectly.
             | 
             | I'm always open to learning something new :)
        
               | lstamour wrote:
               | Well, I'm not sure of other syntaxes to make it simpler,
               | but you could use a CSS variable to make it a little
               | easier: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
               | US/docs/Web/CSS/var Especially if you re-use the same
               | padding values for multiple parts of the page/site. Then
               | you won't have to update values in 3 different places for
               | each padding/font-size/whatever rule. Instead just set
               | the variable for each @media width and then in your later
               | rules, use the single variable to refer to the correct
               | value for all breakpoints.
               | 
               | Also, some units cascade. So if you set the top-level or
               | parent to a particular size, then child elements inside
               | can inherit (or ignore) the unit. This means at a top
               | level you can set your font-size for each @media width,
               | and then use relative units and it will inherit down. But
               | that only works for very small websites, because it
               | introduces subtle bugs as you incorporate more controls
               | from people not aware of your particular practice.
        
               | tiffanyh wrote:
               | You can't use variables in the media query itself.
               | 
               | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40722882/css-native-
               | vari...
        
               | reducesuffering wrote:
               | I'm partial to the TailwindCSS approach where they're
               | right next to each other like:
               | 
               | <div className="text-sm lg:text-lg"> Hello World </div>
               | 
               | I don't know how resizing defaults would work well for
               | most cases instead of specifying what you want.
        
           | earthnail wrote:
           | The closest I've come to that was using Tailwind.
           | text=[1.2em] md:text=[1.0em] lg:text=[0.8em]
        
           | tomr75 wrote:
           | doesn't tailwind do this?
        
             | omnimus wrote:
             | Tailwind doesn't to anything special here. Its just css
             | media queries.
        
           | omnimus wrote:
           | I am not sure if you are joking but there is whole set of
           | techniques called fluid typography that does this (using css
           | math functions mainly clamp) https://fluidtypography.com/
           | It's not a silver bullet and many people simply don't prefer
           | it to having a few breakpoints (that includes me too).
        
         | paul7986 wrote:
         | Been a front-end designer since I started learning/my career
         | (2007 lol) and sorta hate having to use Figma yet it's a lot
         | like using Photoshop so it's not too bad. Yet I almost always
         | just design/code in the browser using the "Inspect Element,"
         | tool (take my last design project, deconstruct it as needed and
         | then copy and paste the code into an IDE; click refresh fairly
         | often).
        
         | H1Supreme wrote:
         | > Modern CSS and your JS frontend of choice is a lot quicker
         | and more powerful for component building and general design
         | work.
         | 
         | I'm a former designer turned programmer, and I couldn't agree
         | more. I was recently tasked with doing some mockup images (no
         | official designer on the team), and at the end, I realized that
         | I could do it so much faster with code.
         | 
         | Ironically, while I was putting the images together (I used
         | Affinity Photo), I remember thinking to myself "Does this thing
         | have some sort of scripting language?".
         | 
         | I still think a sketchpad and a pen is the best way to generate
         | ideas. But, when it comes to mockups, good old HTML and CSS
         | really can't be beat.
        
         | willsmith72 wrote:
         | Hard disagree here. Are you writing production code, or are you
         | building mockups/prototypes?
         | 
         | I don't want non software engineers touching production code.
         | It's too hard, and the depth of skillset for a product/UX
         | designer is already huge.
         | 
         | If you find css and js faster for prototyping and mockups, then
         | sure. I'm doubtful and still yet to see that work in the wild.
        
         | garrickvanburen wrote:
         | My math is closer to 18 years.
         | 
         | At the time I was selling UX services, and the 'prototyping
         | tools' of that generation were what drove me learn PHP, Ruby,
         | and Javascript - for all the reasons you state. I was baffled
         | by all the time and energy people spent becoming an expert in
         | the prototyping tool rather than an expert in building for
         | real. I declared these prototyping tools an expensive
         | distraction and never looked back.
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | Figma is a cursed midpoint between useful and easy to make
       | wireframes, and a functional working interface that can be
       | refined later.
        
       | rbancroft wrote:
       | Interesting, I really like balsamiq and still use it personally,
       | despite work being a figma shop.
        
         | tracker1 wrote:
         | Used to use it a lot, still like it and the handful of times
         | I've needed something similar, it's what I reach for.
        
       | brrrrrm wrote:
       | Empowered with chatGPT (now claude), my partner as a designer
       | pulls off extremely workable implementations of all different
       | ideas without much need for sketching in a non-functional design
       | tool.
       | 
       | When she does draft in design tools it's usually more graphic in
       | nature (branding etc).
        
       | ctward wrote:
       | my push back on this is that unless you have a pretty robust
       | visual design system the outputs are going to be incredibly
       | unoriginal. Yes it will make solving UX problems faster but at
       | the cost of visual differentiation. There is always going to be a
       | place for high fidelity exploration for styling innovation and
       | brand identity.
        
         | ridd_design wrote:
         | it's a good push back. I do think this assumes some (small)
         | design language to extrapolate. But that's also something that
         | will become borderline free in an AI world so I think it's a
         | safe assumption.
         | 
         | What's more interesting that doesn't exist yet is the ability
         | to create more compelling visual languages/systems based on
         | inspiration screenshots. That's a big unlock IMO. Everything
         | right now is very generic.
        
       | refulgentis wrote:
       | There's this, which is more "will we fire all the designers?"
       | (No), and there's the other massive problem: they were a nice,
       | simple, web-native thing that was easily positioned to displace
       | Photoshop and Sketch.app.
       | 
       | They never really successfully landed things that we used to call
       | "major version bumps" and it's devolved into quite a mess. Not
       | anywhere near Photoshop-level, but...it's a strange situation to
       | me because you could build a successful business based on the
       | premise of "that, but only 60% of it, with 5% of the headcount"
        
         | novok wrote:
         | As a mobile engineer, I do not have the visual & product skills
         | that designers have. They can create something visually
         | appealing and aligned much faster than I can and have all sorts
         | of skill sets that take a while to hone. I might have more
         | taste than the typical backend engineer, but it doesn't really
         | translate to visual skills to the level of most designers.
        
       | GenerWork wrote:
       | Figma is a tool and nothing more, despite some people to turn it
       | into the end all be all of user experience. It will eventually be
       | replaced with something, just as it replaced Sketch, and just
       | like Sketch replaced Illustrator. I also noticed that the author
       | barely touches on the people who make the interfaces (product
       | designers). If the author gets their wish, businesses won't
       | hesitate to axe their UX teams to save some costs.
       | 
       | Disclaimer: I'm a product designer who is very skeptical of the
       | enthusiasm around AI as I can see a future where product will
       | instead rely on AI instead of designers to create interfaces.
        
         | ridd_design wrote:
         | author here I'm also a product designer! I'm skeptical of the
         | current approach to AI-generated interfaces. But am a big
         | believer that AI will fundamentally change the way we design
         | products.
         | 
         | My high-level hypothesis is that in the same way browser-based
         | design (Figma) displaced Sketch... code-based design will
         | displace Figma. It will start with the longtail and smaller
         | teams. Figma has a stranglehold on enterprise. But I refuse to
         | believe I will be making vector pictures of products in the
         | longrun. It will feel as easy to design interfaces in code. The
         | article is an attempt at discouraging text-based prompting in
         | that world though. I'd much rather have a modern
         | sketching/wireframing tool connected to my code base and design
         | system.
        
         | chamsom wrote:
         | Getting designers willing to setup their workstation to hand
         | code a React app with dozens of dependencies and be constrained
         | by the DOM is not going to go very well. And then doing it all
         | over again with several other web libraries/languages. This is
         | not even design, it's a developer role who just happens to
         | paint UI with code.
        
       | tracker1 wrote:
       | As a programmer, I find that much more than a wireframe guide is
       | distracting. That said, I tend to have a good understanding of
       | the UX rules for a given design style (often material) and the ui
       | library/tools I'm using. Sometimes I might have questions about
       | the interaction.
       | 
       | On the flip side, I've seen developers that just about need a
       | functional example to work out anything and will still have
       | issues with real functionality. So YMMV.
        
       | legitster wrote:
       | As someone who develops email templates, you will never
       | understand my pain. Figma creates a complete fantasy world for
       | designers who do not understand that a pixel and color perfect
       | design is going to be smashed to bits by the client.
       | 
       | Also, I feel the rise of React is partially to blame. CSS
       | frameworks were clunky and constraining - but they forced you
       | into a lot of design constraints developed on years of best
       | practices. I can't tell you the number of React-based enterprise
       | tools I have to use on a daily basis that have picture-perfect
       | designs ... that turn clunky and confusing the minute you resize
       | the window or activate an animation.
        
         | willsmith72 wrote:
         | That's just bad designing. Good designers use the Figma
         | equivalent of flexboxes and develop responsible designs.
         | 
         | How is this react related? You could always write crappy css. A
         | team creating non responsive react apps would not create
         | responsive non-react apps
        
           | omnimus wrote:
           | They said email templates. That means no flex/grid/typefaces
           | etc etc. emails are painful caveman html
        
         | jjcm wrote:
         | > Figma creates a complete fantasy world for designers who do
         | not understand that a pixel and color perfect design is going
         | to be smashed to bits by the client.
         | 
         | Figma employee here. I'm curious if you see this as a mistake
         | of the design tool itself, or if this is endemic to the
         | constraints of html emails? Maybe phrased a better way, what
         | would you like to see to help convey these constraints to
         | designers?
        
       | tazu wrote:
       | Slightly off-topic, but I dislike this trend of "designers over-
       | designing everything". This website is aesthetically pleasing,
       | and has it's own unique style, but scrolling the home-page is
       | laggy on my $4,000 Macbook (Chrome). I guess it's because it
       | downloads 14MB of resources and tries to download more based on
       | scroll position?
        
         | d3vmax wrote:
         | When is the last time you restarted your mac? I had this guy
         | complain to me, everything is laggy and chrome is slow (memory
         | leaks?). A simple restart fixed everything. Clear your chrome
         | cache/etc. Disable all extensions you dont use and try again.
         | 
         | If it does not, try another browser.
        
         | urban_alien wrote:
         | Same for me on FF Android. Unbeliveable sluggish scrolling.
         | Couldn't read the article.
        
           | FractalHQ wrote:
           | Strange... my iPhone renders it instantly with 0 issues.
        
       | toddmorey wrote:
       | I think Figma is fairly interested in lofi mockups too thus
       | Figjam.
       | 
       | Their components aren't code exactly but I think that's because
       | they will ultimately directly output / sync full components to a
       | variety of platforms from their abstracted representation.
        
       | grumple wrote:
       | Figma is for people to share and collaborate between team
       | members. Especially between designers and devs, but devs at my
       | company use it directly as well. You get something picture
       | perfect that others can comment on or tweak. You can update it
       | easily. Try out different colors or images or icons rapidly. You
       | then also have visual documentation that can be sent to business
       | people or partners.
       | 
       | If it's just you, you don't strictly need it. Personally though,
       | I find it really useful precise because I'm not a great designer.
       | I can fiddle around with sizes and layouts in figma until I get
       | it the way I want it, then I turn that into code. I could jump
       | straight from scribble to code, but having that middle step where
       | I can exercise the idea without screwing with components or css
       | feels nice.
        
       | mvellandi wrote:
       | I find Figma useful for quick ideation on small projects to see
       | potential constraints and challenge assumptions. The lower-fi,
       | the better. I only do mobile-design to focus on essentials, use
       | grayscale colors to not be distracted, and don't make a mobile
       | global navigation. If it was a larger project though, I'd
       | definitely consider sketching as the speed is so much faster. And
       | then jump into code.
        
       | novok wrote:
       | Figma could adapt by making something that actually produces code
       | well too? Although it would add a lot of complexity and designers
       | might not like having to make different versions for different
       | platforms, like the 'android', 'ios', 'flutter', 'web', etc.
       | There are tools like judo.app that make 1:1 native SwiftUI
       | designs.
        
       | dcchambers wrote:
       | Note: Professionally I do practically nothing with the frontend
       | of web development, so my experience may be far from normal, but
       | when I do have to do something frontend related for personal work
       | or the rare work-related task, I prefer a very rough wireframe
       | using something like https://excalidraw.com/
        
       | permo-w wrote:
       | I honestly cannot understand the hype around figma. it's such a
       | weak product. it's laggy, the interface is not fantastic and it
       | isn't even able to convert the proposed interfaces to code?
       | 
       | why would I want to use figma when I could use a non-laggy
       | product that can convert my designs to code?
        
         | kajecounterhack wrote:
         | If you work on a big team, collaboration is everything. Figma
         | enables collaboration in a way that very few other tools allow.
         | SOTA before Figma was sketch files in dropbox or emailing them
         | back and forth.
         | 
         | A lot of commenters here are lamenting the practicality of
         | modern design culture (which is often centered around figma)
         | for smaller teams / earlier projects where collaboration may
         | not be as much the bottleneck. The tool itself is still very
         | useful for small team collaboration though, and for folks
         | thinking through ideas without having to code them up.
         | 
         | Figma also pioneered putting complex tools into the browser.
         | Today people take multiplayer and 60fps canvas for granted but
         | Figma basically created the space. It was a humongous technical
         | achievement and continues to be a very difficult thing to copy,
         | though folks are obviously trying (e.g. Penpot).
         | 
         | AI conversion of components to code is WIP for all toolmakers
         | but obviously on the roadmap. Another hard problem you're kind
         | of trivializing here.
         | 
         | > why would I want to use figma when I could use a non-laggy
         | product that can convert my designs to code?
         | 
         | Can you list some examples?
        
       | whoisjuan wrote:
       | I'm a designer. I built brainglue.ai without Figma, a design
       | system, or a UI library. I just went directly to code
       | (react+tailwind) and let a style organically emerge.
       | 
       | I'm not saying that I'm a unicorn and that my idea-to-code-to-
       | design execution is flawless, but I certainly believe that in
       | this situation, if I hadn't done it this way, I wouldn't have
       | done it all. However, doing this would be wasteful or dumb in
       | almost every other situation that requires my design output.
       | 
       | People pay for Figma precisely because it's a middle ground. It
       | was a middle ground before, and it will continue to be unless
       | something fundamental changes.
        
         | jay_kyburz wrote:
         | Nice design!
         | 
         | Small suggestion, I would preload the contents of each tab and
         | the images in the circle after the main content is loaded.
         | There was a good two second lag loading the images here in
         | Australia.
        
           | whoisjuan wrote:
           | Ohh nice catch. Will do. Thanks
        
       | jjcm wrote:
       | Major bias disclaimer:
       | 
       | 1. I work for Figma
       | 
       | 2. I work on AI at Figma, as well as on the design systems part
       | of the product
       | 
       | 3. Prior to Figma, I spent 7 years as a prototyper teaching
       | designers how to go from idea->code without a design step in
       | between
       | 
       | I love designing in code, and I HIGHLY recommend you do so for
       | smaller projects, but I disagree with some of the assumptions the
       | author is making. The author states, "The reason Figma has over 4
       | million users is because it takes most people too long to code
       | their designs", which I feel is inaccurate. For less-experienced
       | creators, it's mainly because the UX is more approachable in a
       | design tool. That's less relevant here since the author is
       | talking about designers who can code. For the most experienced
       | designers, it's more about alignment.
       | 
       | As an example, most of my side project[1] was designed entirely
       | in code... until it got to a certain scale. Designing in code was
       | amazing early on when every page could be a new pattern. After a
       | while, managing variations of components and ensuring that I
       | wasn't diverging from existing patterns became non-trivial.
       | Things became even harder when I hired another person to work on
       | things. At that point, alignment became crucial. We needed to
       | ensure that designs we were both working on were aligned with
       | each other. Patterns one created needed to be reused, not
       | reinvented by the other. This is something that's very hard to do
       | in code. I ended up creating a mirror of the existing
       | implementation of the site in Figma from scratch. For the iOS
       | app, I ended up starting it in Figma[2] so we could easily
       | compare implementations and land on an agreed pattern. Alignment
       | with patterns and with the team was the #1 reason why we operated
       | in a design tool during this time.
       | 
       | [1] https://non.io
       | 
       | [2] https://www.figma.com/design/im8a7L7axmbj0S0lm27NKa/Nonio-
       | iO...
        
       | jmull wrote:
       | > But you know what AI will be great at? > ...Turning wireframes
       | into frontend code (limited logic) > ...Wielding (and
       | extrapolating) your design system > ...Creating beautiful visuals
       | from screenshots and mood boards
       | 
       | I don't think the argument works. It imagines AI will be able to
       | do things that our current AI do not.
       | 
       | Our current AI work in terms of what they've been trained on.
       | Natural language to code works as well as it does because coders
       | have been asking and answering questions about code a lot on the
       | internet, that's been collected into data sets, and those data
       | sets have been used to train LLMs.
       | 
       | For AIs that work like our current ones to be great at the things
       | the author envisions, they will need a _lot_ of examples of those
       | things, and of a high quality too.
       | 
       | The author wants AI to turn natural language into wire frames,
       | let the designer adjust and improve the wireframe, and then turn
       | the improved wireframe into production code.
       | 
       | But I don't think the training data for those two transformations
       | exist. What even is the intermediate wireframe format? AU will
       | produce and consume it, but it also needs to be in a form human
       | designers can iterate on.
       | 
       | Since the training data doesn't exist, it would need to be
       | created. Is that feasible? If you can't harvest the internet for
       | it for almost nothing, it would cost a great deal to create, and
       | I wonder about the quality of the result.
        
         | fantasybuilder wrote:
         | Frankly, I am not even sure what "frontend code" means in this
         | context. What stack? How is state managed? How is this code
         | integrated into the larger production system? If by "frontend
         | code" they mean fairly clean React code - that's just a small
         | subset of what is actually needed for production.
        
           | willsmith72 wrote:
           | Exactly. It's a dreamland where frontend styling is
           | completely decoupled from logic and behaviour. Sounds good
           | for a 2005 web designer.
        
       | karaterobot wrote:
       | I think the assumption here is that once you make a component
       | library in code, you can just map low-fidelity wireframe
       | components (from something like Balsamiq) onto those "real"
       | components, and go from a napkin sketch to a functioning website
       | without the awkward middle ground of vector designs and clickable
       | slideshow prototypes.
       | 
       | It's an interesting idea. I'm skeptical that, in the real world,
       | you can reliably infer everything you need to produce code from a
       | simple wireframe: how do you deal with specific interactions,
       | specific data, specific operations on that data? Balsamiq-style
       | mockups are all about _not_ getting specific, in order to keep
       | the fidelity low and the velocity high.
       | 
       | In practice, with Figma, the thing I've noticed is that I use
       | low-fidelity wireframes less than in the past, because it's just
       | as easy and fast to use high-fidelity components from my design
       | library. If I'm just stacking Lego blocks together to make a UI,
       | why would I use low-fidelity blocks, if I already have high-
       | fidelity blocks that are much less ambiguous?
       | 
       | In other words, I'm not sure Figma is in the middle ground
       | between sketches and code anymore, I think it's just as easy to
       | think of it as a brainstorming tool that happens to produce high-
       | fidelity results if you use it right.
        
       | arnaudsm wrote:
       | I'm both an engineer and designer, and I really dislike the
       | complexification of Figma.
       | 
       | I use Figma to sketch without any constraints, which allows to be
       | more creative than programming right away.
       | 
       | But nowadays everyone is using complex layout systems and
       | component libraries with 10 nested levels and constraints all
       | over the place. The new dev mode made it even worse. Even when
       | you know all the shortcuts by heart.
       | 
       | The friction is so insane, Figma became slower than programming
       | itself !
        
       | max2 wrote:
       | I can see authors point when it comes to smaller website or app.
       | I work on enterprise products that are rather complex with large
       | surface area. Despite being a pretty good coder (or at least used
       | to be), I wouldn't attempt to iterate on changes directly in the
       | code and link all the flows etc. It would take much longer and
       | I'd lose ability to make rapid changes.
        
       | shove wrote:
       | Figma passed on my resume, so I'm not particularly incentivized
       | to leverage my (very deep, thank you) engineering / design / UX
       | expertise and offer my product guidance for free. They have a
       | _ton_ of momentum, so there's a lot of room to make mistakes
       | before it shows up as more than a blip in the quarterly numbers.
       | They'll _probably_ be fine without me, but seems like an
       | unnecessary risk. ;)
        
       | infomiho wrote:
       | Somewhat related: tldraw has amazing demos of generating code
       | from sketches https://x.com/tldraw/status/1814046549522964692
        
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